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View Full Version : Let's discuss Nomar


MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 10:24 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5706

Everyone talks about his diminishing skills but he's been consistant in terms of numbers of hits at around 195 hits per season.
His doubles were down last year. Why? Because he had more triples! He hustles, which is what ozzie wants.
Homers a bit on the high end at 28 last year, but Maggs had only 29.
Steals were up too.
Only problem is that he's been "K"ing more since the injury.

The real question is why his home stats have been better than the away stats? Could moving from Fenway bring his production down?

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 09:43 AM
Overrated! Doesn't hit in the clutch and is an average SS. If he's so good, why does Boston want A-Rod?

Tragg
12-18-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Overrated! Doesn't hit in the clutch and is an average SS. If he's so good, why does Boston want A-Rod?

I tend to agree - he's been the beneficiary of several years of Gammons hype. If you analyze the numbers, you see a good player, but a trade for whom leaves us with the same issues we have today, minus a few mill in salary I suppose.

CHISOXFAN13
12-18-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Overrated! Doesn't hit in the clutch and is an average SS. If he's so good, why does Boston want A-Rod?

AROD is the best player in the game, and Manny is a cancer. That's why.

D'Angelo F Death
12-18-2003, 09:54 AM
He used to be sensational, he broke his wrist, and he hasn't been nearly the same since. His road OBP is .314, his road SLG is .459 in the past three years...Jose Valentin's numbers are better in both categories (25 points better in SLG)....He is without question one of the most overrated players in the game.

Mags for him straight up or him + Williamson is just obscene.

His rep is inflated because he plays SS with flair, he used to be awesome, he plays for the BoSox, he is a huge fan favorite, he has a euphonous name, he has a memorable pre-swing ritual, he's got a noble nose....

But he is nowhere near Mags' equal and the 3Mil payroll break we'd get would hardly offset the loss of our best player...

jabrch
12-18-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by D'Angelo F Death
He used to be sensational, he broke his wrist, and he hasn't been nearly the same since.


Does that sound like anyone we know? Replace broken wrist with tore his triceps - and we are in business.

Hokiesox
12-18-2003, 10:01 AM
If you had a chance at getting the AL MVP, wouldn't you try to do it?

dooda
12-18-2003, 10:05 AM
The only way trading Maggs makes sense is to dump salary. Well, not dump, but to spread it around so that the 14MM goes to 3 or 4 guys. Keeping Nomar and his big salary doesn't make sense as it puts us in the same boat as we are with Maggs. A superstar and his salary in the last year of his deal.

I'm in favor of dealing Maggs or passing Nomar along for high level prospects and serviceable veterans. It is a risk to take prospects, but we have them for a longer term and lower salary. That frees up the most money to fill the gaps in right field, center field, ss, and pitching. Plus it reloads the upper level of the farm system with guys that are not too far from the bigs.

I like Frank, but I'm also in favor of trading him because he still has value. In two or so more years his value will be very much diminished. Let's say thanks for the great years, and let's get some prospects for him. Put Lee at first base, and either get a serviceable outfielder who can cover ground or put one of our prospects out there and find out if they can play.

Winning takes talent, but it also takes chemistry. If Ozzie and Frank can't get along why wait until it festers to the boiling point.

Certainly there are some prospects in other organizations who are almost ready or are ready but have a veteran in the way. I think this group of WSOX has had their run, and it didn't work out. Let's get on with getting better.

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 10:12 AM
You don't trade the best White Sox player in the last 30 years for prospects. Either keep Maggs or sell the team!

FarmerAndy
12-18-2003, 10:13 AM
*Improves defense at SS
*We need bullpen help, Williamson would be a good addition
*Nomar may be overated, but don't even try to suggest that we would get less production at the plate from Nomar than we would from Jose. Talk about overated, Jose needs to go.

*I hate to lose Maggs, but it's obvious the Sox don't plan on keeping him. This deal improves us at SS, and fills a need in the bullpen. Productive outfielders are easier to find than good SS's and good relievers. We won't get anybody equal to Maggs in RF, but if we are going to lose him, this deal is proabably as good as it's gonna get.

*Nomar can also be used as a bargaining chip. If the Angels and Dodgers get in a bidding war over him, we could make out big.

cornball
12-18-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
*Improves defense at SS
*We need bullpen help, Williamson would be a good addition
*Nomar may be overated, but don't even try to suggest that we would get less production at the plate from Nomar than we would from Jose. Talk about overated, Jose needs to go.

*I hate to lose Maggs, but it's obvious the Sox don't plan on keeping him. This deal improves us at SS, and fills a need in the bullpen. Productive outfielders are easier to find than good SS's and good relievers. We won't get anybody equal to Maggs in RF, but if we are going to lose him, this deal is proabably as good as it's gonna get.

*Nomar can also be used as a bargaining chip. If the Angels and Dodgers get in a bidding war over him, we could make out big.

I agree totally. Nomar won batting titles too didn't he?

Noone wants to lose Mags, but when the team doesn't want to spend money....you need to be creative. I think this is a solid deal for the Sox. It has been said Mags was going to free agency regardless....wants to play in SanDiego from what I heard after this year.

It also will trigger several other deals. This team needs left handed hitting ...maybe Winn or Guillen from Seattle?

TaylorStSox
12-18-2003, 10:25 AM
We got one of the best SS's in the league for one of the best RF's. Plus, we got a young closer. What's the problem?


Does anybody know the prospects? I'd hate to lose Honel. But, in reality, he's nothing more than a prospect.

thecell
12-18-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
You don't trade the best White Sox player in the last 30 years for prospects. Either keep Maggs or sell the team!

I don't think Magglio can be considered the teams best player over the past 30 years. One of the top, but not the best.

D'Angelo F Death
12-18-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy

*Nomar may be overated, but don't even try to suggest that we would get less production at the plate from Nomar than we would from Jose.

Um...why not?

Look at last year's numbers please.

Valentin's OBP: .313
Nomar's nonFenway OBP: .286 (oof!)

Valentin's SLG: .463
Nomar's nonFenway SLG: .401

Nomar simply is not the hitter he was before the wrist injury. Valentin is better.

boog_alou
12-18-2003, 10:34 AM
Anyone who thinks the Chisox would get great offensive production from Nomar should look at his home/away splits. In Fenway, he hits great, banging balls off the monster. But, outside of Fenway, he's not so hot. Look at his numbers from any year, and he just isn't particularly good outside of Fenway.

miker
12-18-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
You don't trade the best White Sox player in the last 30 years for prospects. Either keep Maggs or sell the team!

Harold Baines trade, anyone?

idseer
12-18-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
You don't trade the best White Sox player in the last 30 years for prospects. Either keep Maggs or sell the team!

you'll be hearing from voodoochile SOON on this remark! :smile:

TaylorStSox
12-18-2003, 10:53 AM
I like how people are taking the splits from 1 year and acting like it's been a trend throughout his career. I think people have Marrioti-itus. Sweeping generalizations are lame.

This is a guy with a CAREER BA. of 323 and and OPS of 925. I'll take that from a guy who plays a very solid SS anyday.

D'Angelo F Death
12-18-2003, 10:57 AM
It's only worthwhile to look at Nomar's numbers over the past two years since he's clearly not the same hitter he was before his injury. If he ever hits .372 again, well, then mock my sweeping generalization...

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by thecell
I don't think Magglio can be considered the teams best player over the past 30 years. One of the top, but not the best.

:hurt
"No respect I tell you. I get no respect. People wonder why I'm moody too..."

BoKnowsTheSox
12-18-2003, 11:45 AM
I don't see how everyone can say Nomar isn't a clutch hitter. Maybe you only saw this post-season, but previous to that he had one of the best BA in post-season history. Come on now.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by idseer
you'll be hearing from voodoochile SOON on this remark! :smile:

Sure, hide the shots on the second page so I don't see them until AFTER I've posted... :D:

FarmerAndy
12-18-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by D'Angelo F Death
. Valentin is better.

Lay down the crack pipe. You Valentin lovers will slice up the stats any way you can in order to claim he is better than almost anybody.

Overall 2003 Numbers

Jose: .237 AVG .463 SLG .313 OBP 28 HR 74 RBI
Nomar: .301 AVG .524 SLG .325 OBP 28 HR 105 RBI


If you don't like Nomar, that's fine. If you think this is a bad deal, that's fine. It very well may be a bad deal. BUT, no matter how much you dice up the numbers, it is absolutely absurd to even make the suggestion that Jose Valentin might be better than Nomar. Nomar may be over-rated, but even so, Valentin is not even a hair on Nomar's arse.

Nomars 2003 splits do look bad, but there's nothing to show that it's a trend. Plus, if you need to go by that logic, his numbers at Comiskey were quite good.