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SoxFanDan
12-17-2003, 01:04 PM
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Jerko
12-17-2003, 01:08 PM
Yep. But we have Mota and Williamson which is good because it looks like we'll have to hold the other team to zero to win this year.

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 01:08 PM
A core line-up including Frank, Lee, Valentin, Crede and Konerko isn't a bad place to start. But I agree, they'll need to add another slugger (RF, presumably) and someone to bat at the top of the order (CF or 2B).

Of course, even if they kept Nomar, they'd still need someone new for the top of the order. And they'd have gaping hopes in the bullpen and the rotation. The need for pitching is greater than the need for bats.

JasonC23
12-17-2003, 01:10 PM
Thank you for posting this! This has been my number one point about this deal. Without Nomar or Maggs, here's the Sox offense...

C: Olivo/Alomar = OBP sinkhole
1B: Either at best average (Konerko) or Big Frank, which is obviously awesome
2B: Willie Harris = OBP sinkhole
SS: Jose or Carlos Guillen = good
3B: Crede = hard to say, he was so bad for the entire first half of last year...call it average for now
LF: Carlos = despite improvement, still an OBP sinkhole
CF: Yuck
RF: ????
DH: Big Frank/???

Unless KW shores this up a ton, get ready for more 1-0 losses to the Tigers...

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Thank you for posting this! This has been my number one point about this deal. Without Nomar or Maggs, here's the Sox offense...

C: Olivo/Alomar = OBP sinkhole
1B: Either at best average (Konerko) or Big Frank, which is obviously awesome
2B: Willie Harris = OBP sinkhole
SS: Jose or Carlos Guillen = good
3B: Crede = hard to say, he was so bad for the entire first half of last year...call it average for now
LF: Carlos = despite improvement, still an OBP sinkhole
CF: Yuck
RF: ????
DH: Big Frank/???

Unless KW shores this up a ton, get ready for more 1-0 losses to the Tigers...

But without the deal, here's the pitching situation:

Rotation:

Buehrle
Loaiza
Garland
Rauch
Cotts/Pachecho

Yuck.


Bullpen:

Marte
Koch
Wright
Ginter
Atkins
Wunsch

More yuck.

With that staff, they'd be lucky to win 80 games, even with Nomar in the line-up. But if you add add Perez to the rotation and Mota and Williamson to the pen, AND free up about $5 million in salary along the way to use on Ponson or Everett, you're talking about a team that can win 90, IMHO.

MarkEdward
12-17-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

With that staff, they'd be lucky to win 80 games, even with Nomar in the line-up. But if you add add Perez to the rotation and Mota and Williamson to the pen, AND free up about $5 million in salary along the way to use on Ponson or Everett, you're talking about a team that can win 90, IMHO.

Wait, wouldn't we get Williamson in the Nomar deal anyway? I thought this was how the trade was shaping up:

to Red Sox: Ordonez and prospects

to White Sox: Nomar and Williamson

Am I missing something?

mrwag
12-17-2003, 01:19 PM
I'd rather take my chances with better pitching. We all know what our "stellar" hitting has produced over the last 3-4 years.

JasonC23
12-17-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by mrwag
I'd rather take my chances with better pitching. We all know what our "stellar" hitting has produced over the last 3-4 years.

Fair enough. As I've said, enjoy the 1-0 losses to the Tigers. :(:

kraut83
12-17-2003, 01:25 PM
Maybe with all this cash now freed up, we'll become a player in the Vlad Guererro sweepstakes!

MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by kraut83
Maybe with all this cash now freed up, we'll become a player in the Vlad Guererro sweepstakes!

I believe that this would call for deep pink not teal

mrwag
12-17-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Fair enough. As I've said, enjoy the 1-0 losses to the Tigers. :(:
Can't be any worse than all the 1-0 losses to the Tigers and Devil Rays last year.

MarkEdward
12-17-2003, 01:30 PM
For what it's worth, last year, the Sox were eighth in runs scored. They were fourth in runs allowed.

Liked this quote from someone at Primer:
"...thank goodness the White Sox are shoring up the bullpen to hold all of those late-inning leads they won't have because they can't score."

jeremyb1
12-17-2003, 01:35 PM
The major key to this deal is being overlooked and that's 7-8 million freed up in our budget. I'll take whatever 7-8 million will buy us in this market.

fquaye149
12-17-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
For what it's worth, last year, the Sox were eighth in runs scored. They were fourth in runs allowed.

Liked this quote from someone at Primer:
"...thank goodness the White Sox are shoring up the bullpen to hold all of those late-inning leads they won't have because they can't score."


it's not like we can't put runs on the board with lee, thomas and maybe crede and konerko) and that's assuming we don't get any other offensive producers all offseason.

i'd rather score very few runs and have the pitching keep it very close than have our 5th starter go like 4-26 and have ninth inning 3 run shots by carl crawford blow games where we actually do have the lead

CHISOXFAN13
12-17-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Fair enough. As I've said, enjoy the 1-0 losses to the Tigers. :(:

Yeah, since Maggs helped our offense so much in those 1-0 losses.

MarkEdward
12-17-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
it's not like we can't put runs on the board with lee, thomas and maybe crede and konerko) and that's assuming we don't get any other offensive producers all offseason.


Well, we *couldn't* put runs on the board with Lee, Thomas, Crede, and Konerko, seeing as though we were only eighth in runs scored in the AL. With Mags leaving, that makes our offense even worse.

Aside from Vlad, there aren't many good hitters available on the market. There's Todd Walker, an injury-prone Juan Gonzalez, and Rich Aurilia. That's about it.

fquaye149
12-17-2003, 02:06 PM
so since no good hitters are available, why not boster our rotation and bullpen - our two biggest weaknesses last year

JasonC23
12-17-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
so since no good hitters are available, why not boster our rotation and bullpen - our two biggest weaknesses last year

I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with doing it at the expense of our second-best hitter. And is this boosting, or simply getting them back to where they were when Colon, Gordon, and Sulliven were on the team?

fquaye149
12-17-2003, 02:23 PM
even so, relative to our weaker division, it's an improvement over our situation last year, i would think

MarkEdward
12-17-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
so since no good hitters are available, why not boster our rotation and bullpen - our two biggest weaknesses last year

Because I really don't think those were our two biggest weaknesses last year! According to Baseball Prospectus, we had the fourth best rotation in the AL last year. We had the sixth best bullpen. We were also in the top half in preventing runs. Our offense was only fifth best (according to Prospectus) in the AL and we were eighth in runs scored. Now, I do expect Olivo, Crede, and Konerko to have better seasons, but will that make up for the loss of Ordonez?

I think I would be happy with a Nomar and Williamson for Mags deal. Whatever happened to the rumor that Damon was coming here too?

fquaye149
12-17-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Because I really don't think those were our two biggest weaknesses last year! According to Baseball Prospectus, we had the fourth best rotation in the AL last year. We had the sixth best bullpen. We were also in the top half in preventing runs. Our offense was only fifth best (according to Prospectus) in the AL and we were eighth in runs scored. Now, I do expect Olivo, Crede, and Konerko to have better seasons, but will that make up for the loss of Ordonez?



i meant the fifth starter and the lack of closer in the 1st half...

i agree we were solid...

but fifth starter and koch lost us a LOT of games...

and especially right this moment they are our worst weakness(bullpen and rotation)

jeremyb1
12-17-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Because I really don't think those were our two biggest weaknesses last year! According to Baseball Prospectus, we had the fourth best rotation in the AL last year. We had the sixth best bullpen. We were also in the top half in preventing runs. Our offense was only fifth best (according to Prospectus) in the AL and we were eighth in runs scored. Now, I do expect Olivo, Crede, and Konerko to have better seasons, but will that make up for the loss of Ordonez?

I think I would be happy with a Nomar and Williamson for Mags deal. Whatever happened to the rumor that Damon was coming here too?

The problem I see is that our pitching was good when we had Gordon and Colon. Losing those two will be huge and we need replacements. There's a decent chance our offense will rebound if Crede is more consistent, we are more strict about platooning Jose, Konerko returns to his prior numbers, etc. Our pitching won't be anywhere near as good as last year unless we make a few upgrades.

MarkEdward
12-17-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149

i meant the fifth starter and the lack of closer in the 1st half...
i agree we were solid...
but fifth starter and koch lost us a LOT of games...
and especially right this moment they are our worst weakness(bullpen and rotation)

So would you be happy with Ordonez for Nomar and Williamson? Then maybe we can flip Valentin for someone like Freddy Garcia or Perez.

I just don't want to lose Ordonez's offensive production.


Originally posted by jeremyb1


The problem I see is that our pitching was good when we had Gordon and Colon. Losing those two will be huge and we need replacements. There's a decent chance our offense will rebound if Crede is more consistent, we are more strict about platooning Jose, Konerko returns to his prior numbers, etc. Our pitching won't be anywhere near as good as last year unless we make a few upgrades.

Good points. There are still some worthwhile available free agent pitchers we can always look into to help the pen or to find a fifth starter, however: Kenny Rogers, Jeff Nelson, Antonio Osuna, Arthur Rhodes. Plus, a whole new set of non-tenders comes out on December 20th.