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View Full Version : Newsday says sox/bosox have a deal


Paulwny
12-17-2003, 07:28 AM
December 17, 2003


The Red Sox moved a gigantic step closer to finishing the long-awaited trade for superstar Alex Rodriguez when they agreed yesterday to send shortstop Nomar Garciaparra to the White Sox for outfielder Magglio Ordońez, contingent upon completion of the Rodriguez-for-Manny Ramirez megadeal, National League sources told Newsday yesterday.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-nomar173588313dec17,0,920955.story?coll=ny-sports-span-headlines

MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 07:38 AM
So does this mean that the Dodgers were left completely in the dark?

Soxfest
12-17-2003, 07:39 AM
I hope Sox can sign NG longterm a 1 and done like Colon does nothing for the team.

Brian26
12-17-2003, 07:43 AM
This would be unbelievable if it happens.

ondafarm
12-17-2003, 07:44 AM
So the White Sox would have two Arm Tellem clients who both get constantly dissed by the press. Fortunately, both can hit.

MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 07:48 AM
Nomar is more of a slap hitter which is what this team needs more than a power hitter like maggs

bc2k
12-17-2003, 07:55 AM
You know, I've listened and then agreed with the camp that said if we trade Magglio, it better be for a great talent in return, like a Soriano or Nomar.

I like Soriano and Nomar, but now that this potential trade is more than just rumor, I feel heartbroken for the potential loss of Magglio. Honestly, it was an example of you don't know what you got til it's gone.

As much as my brain tells me it needed to be done since Magglio won't resign, it still hurts. Ooooooheeeeo Reinsdooooorf's Gottaaaaaaaaaa Goooooo.

DirtySouthsider
12-17-2003, 08:03 AM
If you read the whole article it says we are getting Williamson in the trade too for Maggs and two minor leaguers.

I really love this trade but the only thing that scares me is that it said Nomar was disappointed he wasn't going to the Dodgers. I just don't want it to be one year then outta here!

Nick@Nite
12-17-2003, 08:08 AM
If this deal goes through, and Maggs finishes his career in Beantown (playing wall ball) he will have a HOF career, imo.

If Maggs stays put, he has the potential for a HOF career, imo.

Why does Sox management prefer complicated deals like this, trying to pinch damn pennies in the process? It would have been easier to pay Maggs & Robbie (and have already paid Jose)... thereby keeping Maggs' stick and Robbie's glove (RA's presence makes Jose glove better, imo)... oh whats the use? :?:

Just like Sgt Schultz from Stalag 13, I know nothing. :(:

Hondo
12-17-2003, 08:09 AM
Who guessed the "Nomar changing Sox" headline?

If this is ture I'm shocked. Just plain shocked. Not for good or bad yet. I'd just have to let this sink in.

MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
If you read the whole article it says we are getting Williamson in the trade too for Maggs and two minor leaguers.

I really love this trade but the only thing that scares me is that it said Nomar was disappointed he wasn't going to the Dodgers. I just don't want it to be one year then outta here!

If JR and Arm Tellum could get a contract for Frank after JR invoked the diminished skills clause, I'm sure they could work out a deal for the less (hopefully) disgruntled Nomar.

bc2k
12-17-2003, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
If you read the whole article it says we are getting Williamson in the trade too for Maggs and two minor leaguers.

Who are you talking to? I read the entire article. Besides, even if I hadn't read the entire article, after reading my melancholy post, you apparantly think the addition of *Scott Williamson* would make me any less melancholy?

"Oh, Nomar and Williamson. Completely different perspective now. I'll drive Magglio to the airport under that scenario. "

MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Nick@Nite
If this deal goes through, and Maggs finishes his career in Beantown (playing wall ball) he will have a HOF career, imo.

If Maggs stays put, he has the potential for a HOF career, imo.


But if he stayed on the south side he has no chance of becoming "a legend" where he could easily do that in Boston as far as HOF voters are concerned. Dang east coast bias!

MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Who are you talking to? I read the entire article. Besides, even if I hadn't read the entire article, after reading my melancholy post, you apparantly think the addition of *Scott Williamson* would make me any less melancholy?

His career ERA is near 3, so he would be a cornerstone for our bullpen as either the goto guy in the 8th or the 9th (closer)

Paulwny
12-17-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
But if he stayed on the south side he has no chance of becoming "a legend" where he could easily do that in Boston as far as HOF voters are concerned. Dang east coast bias!

Yep, with the Boston press Maggs will no longer be "The best kept secret in baseball".

michned
12-17-2003, 08:14 AM
The trade works from the White Sox perspective because even if Nomar leaves after one season (and he will), let's face it, they were not going to sign Maggs anyway after '04. This way they get a closer (Williamson) and a top-flight rent-a-player in Nomar.

This frees the Sox up to move Valentin or to at least put him at 2B. I sort of like this deal because they get two solid players for Maggs, and if they waited until July to trade Maggs, they would probably just get prospects for him.

bc2k
12-17-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
His career ERA is near 3, so he would be a cornerstone for our bullpen as either the goto guy in the 8th or the 9th (closer)

I've never called Williamson a bad player. My original post was about MAGGLIO and the heartbreak I'd feel if this potential trade went through. The quality we receive in return is irrelevant to my lament of Magglio.

CLR01
12-17-2003, 08:17 AM
If/when this happens the question becomes what to do with Jose. Can they trade him or do they pay him 5 million to ride the pine? Can he play 2nd base?

MarqSox
12-17-2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Yep, with the Boston press Maggs will no longer be "The best kept secret in baseball".
I know this is getting WAY ahead of ourselves, but the thought of Maggs wearing a Boston cap in Cooperstown makes me want to :whiner:

MRKARNO
12-17-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by CLR01
If/when this happens the question becomes what to do with Jose. Can they trade him or do they pay him 5 million to ride the pine? Can he play 2nd base?

I think he can play second

DSpivack
12-17-2003, 08:27 AM
Well, if we're trading Maggs, we better get [at least] a Nomahhhhhhh-quality player in return.

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 08:38 AM
The deal reported in this morning's Trib (Maggs to Boston, Nomar to LA and Odalis Perez, Guilermo Mota, highly touted pitching prospect Greg Miller and possibly Scott Williamson coming to the South Side (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-031216soxordonezaroddeal,1,4077381.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)) seems to make more sense to me than getting Nomar for Maggs.

Nomar plays a position where the Sox already have a $5 million/year player. Nomar is about equal offensively with Maggs, but he, like Maggs, is on the last year of his contract. So why trade a guy on the last year of his contract for another guy on the last year of his contract, when their money is about even (Maggs will make $2 million more, I believe) and doing so will create a hole (in RF) where you don't have one and create a surplus (at SS) where you don't need one?

The LA deal would give the Sox 3 or 4 good pitchers for Maggs. Pitching wins - and the Sox have lost a lot of pitching (Colon, Sullivan and Gordon) this off season. Then maybe they can make the Everett deal with Montreal or sign Juan Gon or some other relatively cheap slugger to play RF.

If the Nomar deal happens, I would hope that the Sox can at least then package Valentin to LA or somewhere to bring in a half-decent starting pitcher.

Hokiesox
12-17-2003, 08:56 AM
Someone make sure Mia Hamm's seat has a heater on it for April games.

Chisox_cali
12-17-2003, 08:57 AM
Well Newsday certainly ain't the Akron times :smile:

dougs78
12-17-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The LA deal would give the Sox 3 or 4 good pitchers for Maggs. Pitching wins - and the Sox have lost a lot of pitching (Colon, Sullivan and Gordon) this off season. Then maybe they can make the Everett deal with Montreal or sign Juan Gon or some other relatively cheap slugger to play RF.

If the Nomar deal happens, I would hope that the Sox can at least then package Valentin to LA or somewhere to bring in a half-decent starting pitcher.

I agree with you dibbs. I personally would be surprised to see Nomar remain with the White Sox. I think we may turn around and ship him to the Dodgers. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be a three way deal. Getting Nomar simply doesn't make much sense. We are not really saving any money (actually by adding williamson, perhaps adding payroll) and we are double loading a position. Basically this trade makes no real sense for the White Sox future.

Maybe Boston just wanted to make sure they got Maggs and didnt' want to fool around with the three-way. I'm still betting that Nomar will go the Dodgers for Perez, Mota, and MIller/Jackson.

tanko
12-17-2003, 09:02 AM
Long Time Lurker first time poster.Nomar will never play for the Sox.We will get OPerez and such.Think about about Bosox get ARod Mags,Dodgers get Nomar,Texas gets Manny and we get friggen Odalis Perez.I know we get others it's just brutal though

bc2k
12-17-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Hokiesox
Someone make sure Mia Hamm's seat has a heater on it for April games.

Oh yeah, I forgot dog day was moved to April.

cornball
12-17-2003, 09:07 AM
If this trade happens it will also cause a domino effect with the Sox. Unless the budget is expanded (doubtful), additional trades will have to happen.

Maybe Nomar to LA, Valentin to ?, PK to ?, Koch to NYM.....something will have to give if this trade happens. We will still have several spot to fill and would create a new one in RF, with the same budget.

Will Nomar sign an extention? Lots of questions...but I hope it happens even though you hate to lose Maggs.

Paulwny
12-17-2003, 09:08 AM
The Boston Globe also reports this trade with the possibility of the sox shipping Nomar to LA, as Hold2dibber had posted.

The sources said another possibility is a three-way deal in which the Red Sox would acquire Ordonez, Garciaparra would go to the Dodgers, and the White Sox would receive pitcher Odalis Perez and prospects, one of which they would flip to the Red Sox, to be packaged with Manny Ramirez in the Rodriguez deal. Red Sox reliever Scott Williamson also could go to Chicago as part of the deal.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2003/12/17/sox_rodriguez_union_mission/

1951Campbell
12-17-2003, 09:08 AM
The Boston Globe-run boston.com is reporting a three-way with the Dodgers is also possible...we get Perez and prospects.

Link (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2003/12/17/sox_rodriguez_union_mission/)

SSN721
12-17-2003, 09:09 AM
Just the whole idea of getting rid of maggs sickens me, I know that he is pushing the team over the budget (which is why I am highly suspect of the trade for Nomar for him) and would be really upset if we trade a homegrown talent with one year left for someone else for the same money with one year left. I know there is no way around it an dit is probably me being sentimental more then thinking about the overall good for the team. I just am baffled by the mentality of ownership to dump a player we all love and not just spend the extra bucks to fill the holes we have. And I think I would also be upset seeing Maggs going to the HOF in a Boston cap. :whiner:

mike squires
12-17-2003, 09:26 AM
It is brutal. We are giving away Maggs in my and which makes it worse we have noone to relace him in the outfield unless one of these young guys (Borchard, Reed) can have a breakout year. I don't like this trade at all. Maybe the young pitcher will be a studd but we won't see it for a a few years if he is. :(:

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by tanko
Long Time Lurker first time poster.Nomar will never play for the Sox.We will get OPerez and such.Think about about Bosox get ARod Mags,Dodgers get Nomar,Texas gets Manny and we get friggen Odalis Perez.I know we get others it's just brutal though

As much as I love Nomar, I'd only want him if we could be assured that he'd stay for more than one year. Otherwise, why trade Maggs for him - that just opens a hole in RF and creates a surplus at SS. Makes no sense to me.

And although Perez alone certainly isn't in the league of those other guys, he is a solid starting pitcher with a high upside, Mota has a flame thrower for an arm and was absolutely lights out last year, Greg Miller (the LA prospect) is supposedly the real deal, and Scott Williamson is a former rookie of the year with a career ERA around 3.00. That might not give the Sox the "big name" in the trade, but it would give them a surplus of pitching - and would be a fantastic return for Maggs, IMHO.

Rocky Soprano
12-17-2003, 09:31 AM
From a business point of view, I guess we could get some good players for Maggs.

But like others, I would absolutely hate to see Magglio leave the White Sox.

Why cant we just raise our payroll a good 15MM more and then not worry about all of this!

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

JasonC23
12-17-2003, 09:38 AM
Maggs is my favorite White Sox player, and I don't want to see him go. But, having said that, I'd be OK with Maggs for Nomar.

Maggs for Perez + prospects just absolutely blows. :(: I'm glad some of you still keep saying that pitching wins, but all the pitching in the world doesn't matter if no one on the Sox gets on base and scores. Seriously, without Mags, who gets on base for the Sox? Big Frank...and that's it. I'm picturing many, many 1-0, 2-1 losses next year if it's Maggs for Perez + prospects.

Nick@Nite
12-17-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
From a business point of view, I guess we could get some good players for Maggs.

But like others, I would absolutely hate to see Magglio leave the White Sox.

Why cant we just raise our payroll a good 15MM more and then not worry about all of this!

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

:reinsy
"Don't you know money doesn't grow on trees"

SoxOnTop
12-17-2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
As much as I love Nomar, I'd only want him if we could be assured that he'd stay for more than one year. Otherwise, why trade Maggs for him - that just opens a hole in RF and creates a surplus at SS. Makes no sense to me.

And although Perez alone certainly isn't in the league of those other guys, he is a solid starting pitcher with a high upside, Mota has a flame thrower for an arm and was absolutely lights out last year, Greg Miller (the LA prospect) is supposedly the real deal, and Scott Williamson is a former rookie of the year with a career ERA around 3.00. That might not give the Sox the "big name" in the trade, but it would give them a surplus of pitching - and would be a fantastic return for Maggs, IMHO.

I disagree. Getting Nomar would put power and a high average at a position that typically doesn't have it. Plut it saves us $2 million. Even without the $2 mil, I'd rather have a big money player at SS than in RF, because you can find a solid RF with pop in his bat much easier and cheaper than finding a solid SS with pop.

Ellis Burkes anyone?????

siugrad25
12-17-2003, 09:46 AM
This is what ESPN.com just posted on their Web site.

ESPN.com news services

Reports circulated Wednesday that the Red Sox have conditionally agreed to trade Nomar Garciaparra to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez.

Newsday cited baseball sources for its report about the deal.

However, the newspaper reports that the deal would only be completed if the Red Sox are able to acquire Alex Rodriguez from the Rangers for Manny Ramirez.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1688365)

We can either look at it as the Sox will be getting a star shortstop or a stop over on his way to the Dodgers for pitchers..

Jerko
12-17-2003, 09:50 AM
If the Sox lose Mags, it better be for Nomar just for the PR of the deal. I can see a "love-fest" with Nomar if he signs, but if all they get are a few pitchers, JR will be lambasted for letting Mags go no matter what fiscal sense it might make. And then we can put Valentin at second if we keep him and that should get rid of the Willie Harris problem. The problem being him actually playing.

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Maggs is my favorite White Sox player, and I don't want to see him go. But, having said that, I'd be OK with Maggs for Nomar.

Maggs for Perez + prospects just absolutely blows. :(: I'm glad some of you still keep saying that pitching wins, but all the pitching in the world doesn't matter if no one on the Sox gets on base and scores. Seriously, without Mags, who gets on base for the Sox? Big Frank...and that's it. I'm picturing many, many 1-0, 2-1 losses next year if it's Maggs for Perez + prospects.

Can you explain to me, though, why we would even trade Maggs for Nomar? It wouldn't save much money. Wouldn't give us certainty beyond next year, cuz Nomar (just like Maggs) will be gone after next year. And the deal would actually make the Sox offense WORSE. Without the deal, the Sox have Maggs and Valentin in the lineup. With the deal, the Sox have Nomar (who is about equal to Maggs) and probably Reed or Borchard in the line-up. And despite the fact that Valentin is far from perfect, he is a better than average hitter and likely to be better next year than an unproven rookie.

With all that said, Maggs for Perez and prospects would blow, and I would not do it if I were Kenny. But Mota and Williamson aren't prospects - they are Grade A, Prime top-of-the-heap major league pitchers. So Maggs for Perez and those two, along with one of the Dodgers best pitching prospects (as the Trib is reporting), would be a far cry from "Perez and prospects".

Baby Fisk
12-17-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
If the Sox lose Mags, it better be for Nomar just for the PR of the deal. I can see a "love-fest" with Nomar if he signs, but if all they get are a few pitchers, JR will be lambasted for letting Mags go no matter what fiscal sense it might make. And then we can put Valentin at second if we keep him and that should get rid of the Willie Harris problem. The problem being him actually playing.
:KW
"Don't worry about Willy Harris. We got Juan Uribe locked up!"

chosk8
12-17-2003, 09:58 AM
I am just guessing, but I think if this goes down, Nomar will be then trade to the Dodgers for pitching, Valentin will be traded to Seattle for Guillen now that the Guillen-Vizquel deal fell apart, and I've heard rumors that Texas has inquired about some pitching from the White Sox, so possibly a pitching for Laynce Nix deal. Nix will then be the replacement in RF. Again, just guessing. It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I'm sure we'll all be very disappointed though.

chosk8
12-17-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Maggs is my favorite White Sox player, and I don't want to see him go. But, having said that, I'd be OK with Maggs for Nomar.

Maggs for Perez + prospects just absolutely blows. :(: I'm glad some of you still keep saying that pitching wins, but all the pitching in the world doesn't matter if no one on the Sox gets on base and scores. Seriously, without Mags, who gets on base for the Sox? Big Frank...and that's it. I'm picturing many, many 1-0, 2-1 losses next year if it's Maggs for Perez + prospects.

Didn't we have enough of those this past year with Maggs?

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I disagree. Getting Nomar would put power and a high average at a position that typically doesn't have it. Plut it saves us $2 million. Even without the $2 mil, I'd rather have a big money player at SS than in RF, because you can find a solid RF with pop in his bat much easier and cheaper than finding a solid SS with pop.

Ellis Burkes anyone?????

The Sox biggest need right now is pitching - their rotation is week and so is their bullpen. Even without Maggs, the line-up still may be potent, with particularly if Crede continues to improve and PK returns to form. And as you say, if the Sox trade Maggs for pitching, they can go out and get a RF with some pop (though Burks isn't the answer - I doubt he could play a week in the field before his knee explodes).

Plus, the Sox already have power at SS - Valentin hit the same number of homers last year as Garciaparra. Obviously, Garciaparra is much better overall, but the Sox need is pitching, not a one year rent-a-player at SS.

delben91
12-17-2003, 10:09 AM
Somebody wake me if it happens...then I'll believe it.

Jerko
12-17-2003, 10:11 AM
I know we need pitching, who doesn't? BUT, if the Sox actually trade Mags for Nomar, AND then trade Nomar, I can see the fan interest in this team plummet faster than Kyle Farnsworth goin down on his boyfriend. Like I said, I know we need pitching, but how will it look to the "fringe" fan that their team traded Mags and Nomar in a matter of days, if not hours? Why even bother with the Red Sox then, just trade Mags to LA for the pitchers and at least keep him out of the American League. Oh, I forgot though, we're not competing with the Red Sox or Yankees, just Minnesota. Sorry.

MetalliSox
12-17-2003, 10:16 AM
A Nomar/Robbie Alomar duo would of been nice defensively this season if this trade goes down.

jabrch
12-17-2003, 10:18 AM
If we get Mota, Perez and prospects out of this deal, I will be very curious to see what Kenny does with the extra 8mm that would be freed up. That could enable us to make a move, right? That could be Freddy Garcia money and we'd still have money for another OF?

Buehrle
Loaiza
Garcia
Perez
Garland

Nick@Nite
12-17-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
A Nomar/Robbie Alomar duo would of been nice defensively this season if this trade goes down.

Since the Sox blew a wad on Jose, the BeanSox can keep Nomah. Keep Robbie and play iron-glove-Jose at SS.

Oh yeah, keep Maggs.

Palehose13
12-17-2003, 10:23 AM
What about Valentin for Carlos Guillen and a Nomar/Guillen middle infield?

Nomar/Guillen is 5 million cheaper than Valentin/Ordonez.

miker
12-17-2003, 10:26 AM
So these are the choices:

1. Trade our best hitter and All-Star outfielder, who IMHO may get even better for an too-often-injured All-Star shortstop who is already PO'd that his current employer was shopping for his replacement, and who will be looking well past his one year on the South Side.

2. Send our best player to Boston, who sends an All-Star shortstop to the Dodgers, who sends the White Sox a collection of could've-beens and might-bes.

3. Enjoy Maggs last year in Chicago and wish him well in his new location in 2005.

4. Convinced of his talent and drawing power, JR and company opens the purse strings for Maggs and builds a quality team around him.

5. A collection of Haliburton and Bechtel executives with money and experience from rebuilding Iraq offer to buy the Sox from JR and company and promise to attract talented free-agents and run the team as a world-class organization... :smile:

If #1 through #3 happen, we're screwed and terminally hopeless.

If #4 or #5 happens, its the end of the world and you should prepare to meet your maker.

cornball
12-17-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
if the Sox actually trade Mags for Nomar, AND then trade Nomar, I can see the fan interest in this team plummet faster than Kyle Farnsworth goin down on his boyfriend.



That fast Huh! That is too funny, thanks for the laugh.

MarqSox
12-17-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by miker
If #1 through #3 happen, we're screwed and terminally hopeless.
Am I the only one who reads Clubhouse threads and feels like I've wandered into a psych ward full of manic depressives?

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by miker
So these are the choices:

1. Trade our best hitter and All-Star outfielder, who IMHO may get even better for an too-often-injured All-Star shortstop who is already PO'd that his current employer was shopping for his replacement, and who will be looking well past his one year on the South Side.

2. Send our best player to Boston, who sends an All-Star shortstop to the Dodgers, who sends the White Sox a collection of could've-beens and might-bes.

3. Enjoy Maggs last year in Chicago and wish him well in his new location in 2005.

4. Convinced of his talent and drawing power, JR and company opens the purse strings for Maggs and builds a quality team around him.

5. A collection of Haliburton and Bechtel executives with money and experience from rebuilding Iraq offer to buy the Sox from JR and company and promise to attract talented free-agents and run the team as a world-class organization... :smile:

If #1 through #3 happen, we're screwed and terminally hopeless.

If #4 or #5 happens, its the end of the world and you should prepare to meet your maker.

Ha! Good stuff.

A couple of points, though. First, Nomar has only been injured once, IIRC. Second, I don't see how anyone can say that Perez/Mota/Williamson/Miller is a package of "coulda beens" and "might bes". At worst, Perez is a decent major league starter right now. At best, he's a no. 2 (like he was in '02). Williamson and Mota are already top-tier relief pitchers. Those guys are NOT "coulda beens" or "might be's" - they're bona fide, good major league pitchers. Miller is the only "might be" in the rumored deal, and while all pitching prospects are long-shots, he sounds like the real deal.

CLR01
12-17-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Am I the only one who reads Clubhouse threads and feels like I've wandered into a psych ward full of manic depressives?


No

Palehose13
12-17-2003, 10:38 AM
for an too-often-injured All-Star shortstop

Where do you get that he is often injured? 2001 was teh only season he played less than 130 games because of injury and his .310 BA in 2002 and .301 BA last year shows that he has recovered nicely.

SoxFan78
12-17-2003, 10:40 AM
I have never liked the idea of of the White Sox getting rid of Maggs. Homegrown boy does good, I like that story. But the idea of getting Nomar in the end does sweeten the pot. At least we are getting something. But believe me, when Boston comes to town, I will be up on my feet and still singing ooo-eee-ooo Magglio, if Mags plays for the red sox.

jabrch
12-17-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by miker
1. Trade our best hitter and All-Star outfielder, who IMHO may get even better for an too-often-injured All-Star shortstop who is already PO'd that his current employer was shopping for his replacement, and who will be looking well past his one year on the South Side.



Often injured? When? Other than a broken wrist (not a chronic injury) Nomar hasn't been hurt much at all. He played 156 games in each of the past two years. During that time, he hit over .300, averaged 26 HRs scored and drove in over 100 runs, and even stole bases.

Miker, you fail to note that the other option is to keep Mags, and have him leave at the end of the year next season and watch us get absolutely nothing but 2 stinking draft picks. At least if we make a move, we have a chance to go at it (the AL Central Title)this year.

With our team as is, we have no shot at anything.

duke of dorwood
12-17-2003, 10:45 AM
I'd rather maintain the offense at its current level than give it up for pitching. Getting NL pitchers into the AL always concerns me.

Procol Harum
12-17-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Am I the only one who reads Clubhouse threads and feels like I've wandered into a psych ward full of manic depressives?

Nah, they're White Sox fans held in the thrall of Jerry Reinsdorf's reign of terror.

miker
12-17-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Where do you get that he is often injured? 2001 was the only season he played less than 130 games because of injury and his .310 BA in 2002 and .301 BA last year shows that he has recovered nicely.

You're right - I was under the impression that he has missed more time, but the numbers indicate otherwise.

Please forgive me.

I have always thought he was was a good player, I just can't see him being that enthusiastic about changing the color of his Sox.

As for the Dodgers being mentioned, if they really are as good as everyone says they are, I'll eat those words too.

miker
12-17-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Miker, you fail to note that the other option is to keep Mags, and have him leave at the end of the year next season and watch us get absolutely nothing but 2 stinking draft picks. At least if we make a move, we have a chance to go at it (the AL Central Title)this year.

See option #3.

I have corrected Nomar's injury status in a previous post.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

ChiSoxBobette
12-17-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
December 17, 2003


The Red Sox moved a gigantic step closer to finishing the long-awaited trade for superstar Alex Rodriguez when they agreed yesterday to send shortstop Nomar Garciaparra to the White Sox for outfielder Magglio Ordońez, contingent upon completion of the Rodriguez-for-Manny Ramirez megadeal, National League sources told Newsday yesterday.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-nomar173588313dec17,0,920955.story?coll=ny-sports-span-headlines

What I heard on ESPN 1000 this morning is that we would move Nomar to LA for Perez, Moto, & pitching prospect(s)

It Sounds Like A Long Year For The Pale Hose!

rdivaldi
12-17-2003, 11:03 AM
If we get Scott Williamson, Odalis Perez, Guilliermo Mota, and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball for Ordonez then KW is GM of the year. What a steal that would be...

soxtalker
12-17-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
I know we need pitching, who doesn't? BUT, if the Sox actually trade Mags for Nomar, AND then trade Nomar, I can see the fan interest in this team plummet faster than Kyle Farnsworth goin down on his boyfriend. Like I said, I know we need pitching, but how will it look to the "fringe" fan that their team traded Mags and Nomar in a matter of days, if not hours? Why even bother with the Red Sox then, just trade Mags to LA for the pitchers and at least keep him out of the American League. Oh, I forgot though, we're not competing with the Red Sox or Yankees, just Minnesota. Sorry.

First, these are all rumors that we are reacting to. And they probably aren't coming from anywhere in the Sox organization, which keeps a very tight lid on any deals.

Second, there have been rumors of deals just with LA. They haven't been able to make them work. Boston comes into the picture because they will have two star SS's. Give KW credit for continuing to pursue the LA pitchers by finding other avenues that will fulfill LA's needs.

Third, if this trade works out (or something like it), it reminds me of the Colon trade. If KW can do it, he will be showing that he can be a GM who can put together such complex trades when straight two-team trades can't be done.

Finally, I don't see why the fan interest will plummet. Yes, people will miss Maggs, but, in fact, this is great hot-stove baseball. And KW has shown that he can and will deal during the season also.

D'Angelo F Death
12-17-2003, 11:12 AM
Mags for the 4 pitchers is the only deal that makes any kind of sense. Shouldn't someone point out that Nomar is nowhere near Mags' equal with the bat? Hell he ain't even Valentin's equal! He is only any kind of hitter at Fenway. He is nowhere near what he was before the wrist injury when he was winning batting titles. Nomar the past three years:

At Fenway: .343 AVG, .384 OBP, .586 SLG
On the road: .266 AVG, .314 OBP, .459 SLG

Mags past 3 yrs: .314 AVG, .381 OBP, 558 SLG
Jose past 3 yrs: .247 AVG, .320 OBP, .483 SLG

We're far better off with Mags & Jose than Nomar and Jeremy Reed or whatever in RF...

Fenway
12-17-2003, 11:13 AM
Back here at the end of I-90 East, we didn't see this coming.

If it is true Theo Epstein has done the impossible, unloading Manny and being stronger in 2 positions.

Our friends at nyyfans.com are reading to jump off the George Washing Bridge

feel free to stop by our dump and express a view on this interesting devlopment.

http://forums.redsoxnation.net/index.php?showtopic=439


(BTW I have fond memories of 35th St, and McCuddys.....the Wal-Mart that was built 13 years ago to replace the old park well ..... let me just say I hope the renovations work)

faneidde
12-17-2003, 11:14 AM
Just think, until this morning we were all wondering if the White Sox would do anything this offseason.

hold2dibber
12-17-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
If we get Scott Williamson, Odalis Perez, Guilliermo Mota, and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball for Ordonez then KW is GM of the year. What a steal that would be...

Amen!

anewman35
12-17-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by faneidde
Just think, until this morning we were all wondering if the White Sox would do anything this offseason.

Well, we still kinda are - nothing has officially happened yet, and trades can fall apart...

CHISOXFAN13
12-17-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
I know we need pitching, who doesn't? BUT, if the Sox actually trade Mags for Nomar, AND then trade Nomar, I can see the fan interest in this team plummet faster than Kyle Farnsworth goin down on his boyfriend. Like I said, I know we need pitching, but how will it look to the "fringe" fan that their team traded Mags and Nomar in a matter of days, if not hours? Why even bother with the Red Sox then, just trade Mags to LA for the pitchers and at least keep him out of the American League. Oh, I forgot though, we're not competing with the Red Sox or Yankees, just Minnesota. Sorry.

I guess you haven't given any thought to the fact that LA would prefer Nomar over Maggs, thus driving up the value in trade.

Maybe we get Perez, Mota and the two top pitching prospects that Evans didn't want to dump when the trade was focused on Ordonez.

jabrch
12-17-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
I guess you haven't given any thought to the fact that LA would prefer Nomar over Maggs, thus driving up the value in trade.

Maybe we get Perez, Mota and the two top pitching prospects that Evans didn't want to dump when the trade was focused on Ordonez.

Amen

MarqSox
12-17-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
If we get Scott Williamson, Odalis Perez, Guilliermo Mota, and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball for Ordonez then KW is GM of the year. What a steal that would be...
You're absolutely right, although the casual fan will view it as the Sox giving up their best player for a bunch of guys they've never heard of and may ultimately hurt the team at the gate.

chisox06
12-17-2003, 11:32 AM
Sorry to smash your hopes folks, but if this trade happens it is nothing but a complicated salary dump. Mags goes to Boston, we get Nomar, a position that is already taken care of, well by taken care of I mean we have a player there, not much of a player but it's not one of the "holes" that this team needs to fill and the trade would create another, a problem the sox dont need considering the payroll restrictions. If the trade happens, Nomar and his 10.5 million contract will be shipped to L.A probably for Odalis Perez and some prospects. So in the end the sox trade Mags (12 mil) for Perez (3.4 mill and a 4.5 ERA) and some prospects. Sorry but the sox get a big shaft from that deal. Another example of why we should hate JR, and even KW because if he does this deal, its absoultey disgusting, because it in no way shape or form helps our ball club, all it does is dump salary, thanx a lot sox fans for not showin up, NOW LOOK AT WHATS HAPPENING!. Of course its all speculation, but if the trade goes through, look for Nomar to be shipped to LA, and look for the sox to go from losers to cheap pathetic losers.

siugrad25
12-17-2003, 11:34 AM
I'm really torn right now.

First off, I love having Magglio on the Sox, but if they trade him and get equal in return I guess I'm OK with it. Getting the rumored four pitchers sounds like it bolsters the bullpen and rotation, but where's the hitters, fielders?

I mean, they have holes at 2B, CF and now RF? They have a serviceable SS, 1B and C and only Frank Thomas and Carlos Lee offer Sox fans anything to cheer about. There's barely any star power (which isn't necessary, but nice), and it almost seems like rebuilding again. If you think about it, the Sox are a couple players away from "The Kids Can Play XX."

I've been trying to be optimistic and not be one of these guys that complain all the time about the Sox moves or lack of them, but its hard. I was hoping to have Nomar on the South Side, but that still leaves holes at the forementioned 2B, CF and RF. And unless the Sox pick up Ponson or someone like him, the rotation of Buehrle, Loaiza, Perez, Garland and ???, while pretty decent, still doesn't make me giddy after trading your best hitter without prospects of getting someone else.

So again I'm putting my blind faith in KW.
Why is everything so difficult in Soxland???

santo=dorf
12-17-2003, 11:35 AM
I say we keep Nomar, let him finish out his carrer with the White Sox. Then when we are in Cleveland during a pennant chase, we can release him.


:reinsy

"Sounds good to me!"

CLR01
12-17-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by fenway
Back here at the end of I-90 East, we didn't see this coming.




Welcome to WSI!


Reading your board, I keep getting confused when I see the word Sox used.

miker
12-17-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by santo=dorf
I say we keep Nomar, let him finish out his carrer with the White Sox. Then when we are in Cleveland during a pennant chase, we can release him.

I was anxiously awaiting "White Flag 2004"

Palehose13
12-17-2003, 11:41 AM
In my dreamworld:
Maggs to BoSox for Nomar lose 2.5 Million from payroll
Valentin to Sea for Guillen lose 2.5 Million from payroll
Konerko to LA for pitching lose ??? Million from payroll

Nomar at SS, Guillen at 2B = solid middle infield.
Sox have money to possibly get Ponson and maybe a cheap FA corner OF. (Or Everett trade???)

rdivaldi
12-17-2003, 11:42 AM
I can't agree with the nay-sayers. If the 3 way trade goes through, we hands down have the best starting staff and bullpen in the AL Central.

I would like to have Maggs for his entire career too, but we'd be getting unbelievable talent for him.

MarqSox
12-17-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by chisox06
Sorry to smash your hopes folks, but if this trade happens it is nothing but a complicated salary dump. Mags goes to Boston, we get Nomar, a position that is already taken care of, well by taken care of I mean we have a player there, not much of a player but it's not one of the "holes" that this team needs to fill and the trade would create another, a problem the sox dont need considering the payroll restrictions. If the trade happens, Nomar and his 10.5 million contract will be shipped to L.A probably for Odalis Perez and some prospects. So in the end the sox trade Mags (12 mil) for Perez (3.4 mill and a 4.5 ERA) and some prospects. Sorry but the sox get a big shaft from that deal.
You're completely wrong. You're overlooking the fact that we'd get Mota and Williamson in the deal, which is crucial. That shores up our bullpen, and with Perez we get a solid #3 starter. I love Maggs, but our offense is not going to go in the tank without him. Lee is coming into his own and will pick up a lot of the slack, and if Konerko returns to 2002 form, the offense will be fine.

All that said, I would prefer signing Maggs to a longterm extension ... but it ain't gonna happen, and if we have to move him, this is about as good as we could hope for.

mike squires
12-17-2003, 11:42 AM
Yahoo is reporting that the Dogers interest have faded and the Sox will get Nomar and Williamson for Maggs then Trade Nomar to LA.

voodoochile
12-17-2003, 11:43 AM
So if they can't move Jose, which position does he play, LF or RF? I know he can play LF, but can Lee handle RF?

I liked this better when the Sox were getting two stud AS style players. A one year SS and a reliever don't exactly make me jump up and down. This is a wash except for the salary savings and unless the Sox do something really fast, that money is going straight to JR's bottom line.

I like Nomar, but this changes very little, the Sox still need a CF and SP and now they need a RF too...

CHISOXFAN13
12-17-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by chisox06
Sorry to smash your hopes folks, but if this trade happens it is nothing but a complicated salary dump. Mags goes to Boston, we get Nomar, a position that is already taken care of, well by taken care of I mean we have a player there, not much of a player but it's not one of the "holes" that this team needs to fill and the trade would create another, a problem the sox dont need considering the payroll restrictions. If the trade happens, Nomar and his 10.5 million contract will be shipped to L.A probably for Odalis Perez and some prospects. So in the end the sox trade Mags (12 mil) for Perez (3.4 mill and a 4.5 ERA) and some prospects. Sorry but the sox get a big shaft from that deal. Another example of why we should hate JR, and even KW because if he does this deal, its absoultey disgusting, because it in no way shape or form helps our ball club, all it does is dump salary, thanx a lot sox fans for not showin up, NOW LOOK AT WHATS HAPPENING!. Of course its all speculation, but if the trade goes through, look for Nomar to be shipped to LA, and look for the sox to go from losers to cheap pathetic losers.

The key to this trade isn't Perez, IMO. If we land Mota and Williamson, we could have one of the best bullpens in the game. Try and think beyond the trade. We free up a lot of money which could also allow the Sox to land Ponson after all.

A starting rotation of Esty, Buerhle, Perez, Ponson and Garland isn't too shabby.

mike squires
12-17-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by mike squires
Yahoo is reporting that the Dogers interest have faded and the Sox will get Nomar and Williamson for Maggs then Trade Nomar to LA.

Oops, I guess we've established that

CLR01
12-17-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
So if they can't move Jose, which position does he play, LF or RF? I know he can play LF, but can Lee handle RF?

I liked this better when the Sox were getting two stud AS style players. A one year SS and a reliever don't exactly make me jump up and down. This is a wash except for the salary savings and unless the Sox do something really fast, that money is going straight to JR's bottom line.

I like Nomar, but this changes very little, the Sox still need a CF and SP and now they need a RF too...


I hope they don't put Jose in the outfield again. The man's hamstrings would fall off.

Viva Magglio
12-17-2003, 11:50 AM
Nothing is official yet, but it looks like this will go down as the day one of the best players we ever had is given away ultimately for pitching prospects that may or may not upgrade the the White Sox. I would not trade Mágglio Ordóńez under any circumstance, but the only possible justification for trading him would be to make our ballclub significantly better. I am not convinced these pitchers from the Dodgers will do that, and it will be these Dodger pitchers we will get because there is no way the White Sox would keep Nomar Garciaparra.

What I am convinced of is that Jerry Reinsdorf is a cheapskate owner and will continue to rule this franchise with the same arrogance and contempt for us the fans that 18th century European monarchs had for their subjects. Of course, in Reinsdorf's eyes, it's our fault that things like Mágglio Ordóńez being traded away happens. Because we don't fill the ballpark on a consistent basis, we're not producing the revenues necessary to keep players such as Mágglio Ordóńez.

That is complete crap! The reason why we don't fill the ballpark on a consistent basis is because of Jerry Reinsdorf. His years and years of contemptful acts toward us the fans is why people don't come. Some complaints with Reinsdorf are merely petty, but others I think are quite legitimate. He is the cause of the problem, not the solution.

If all Jerry Reinsdorf wants to do is run this franchise like it's the Montreal Expos, and even further ailenate the fans in the process, then why the hell doesn't he sell the ballclub to someone who will treat us the fans with the reverence we deserve and build this team into one that we can be proud of?

The greatest day in the history of the White Sox is yet to come. That is, the day Jerry Reinsdorf sells this franchise to someone serious about bringing a championship ballclub to the South Side of Chicago.

rdivaldi
12-17-2003, 11:50 AM
A starting rotation of Esty, Buerhle, Perez, Ponson and Garland isn't too shabby.

Easily the best in the AL Central.

I'd be kind of concerned about Garland being a #5 starter though. He wouldn't get a lot of repetitions at the beginning of the season.

fquaye149
12-17-2003, 11:53 AM
am i the only one that hopes it's a 3 way w/ LA?


rotation of:

buehrle
loaiza
perez
ponson/garcia(maybe)
garland

could be the best in baseball. period


bullpen with mota, williamson, marte, wunsch is one of the better bullpens in baseball...

and our lineup, while weakened would still be pretty decent...crede, lee, thomas, and there's always the possiblity that konerko won't blow chunks....


i'd be reasonably optimistic for the short term AND the future going into next year with that lineup

CHISOXFAN13
12-17-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
am i the only one that hopes it's a 3 way w/ LA?


rotation of:

buehrle
loaiza
perez
ponson/garcia(maybe)
garland

could be the best in baseball. period


bullpen with mota, williamson, marte, wunsch is one of the better bullpens in baseball...

and our lineup, while weakened would still be pretty decent...crede, lee, thomas, and there's always the possiblity that konerko won't blow chunks....


i'd be reasonably optimistic for the short term AND the future going into next year with that lineup

Couldn't agree more. I like Maggs as much as the next guy, but having a guy potentially wearing a Sox hat in the HOF isn't as important to me as winning.

kittle42
12-17-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13


A starting rotation of Esty, Buerhle, Perez, Ponson and Garland isn't too shabby.

I don't think we should assume we have any shot at Ponson.

anewman35
12-17-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Nothing is official yet, but it looks like this will go down as the day one of the best players we ever had is given away ultimately for pitching prospects that may or may not upgrade the the White Sox. I would not trade Mágglio Ordóńez under any circumstance, but the only possible justification for trading him would be to make our ballclub significantly better.

I love Magglio too, but isn't this better than getting nothing for him in a year? If we don't make this trade, it could be the Everitt thing all over again - he'll want to test the market and wouldn't want to sign with us for significantly less, we wouldn't offer arbitration, and then we'd be stuck with nothing at all (or even if we offered, we'd get 2 draft picks, woo!) I'd rather have some pitching for a year instead of Magglio. Like I said, I love Magglio, but we can replace most of the offense, and greatly improve the pitching. If we can do this trade, we should.

jabrch
12-17-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149

could be the best in baseball. period

Pedro
Schilling
Lowe
Wakefield
Kim



Mussina
Vazquez
Kevin Brown
Wells/Lieber/Contreras

Zito
Mulder
Hudson
Harden
Duchscherer

and sadly
Prior
Wood
Zambrano
Clement
Cruz


Well, it could - but it isn't. It isn't top 4. It could be somewhere in the next tier of pitching staffs, I guess.

fquaye149
12-17-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Pedro
Schilling
Lowe
Wakefield
Kim



Mussina
Vazquez
Kevin Brown
Wells/Lieber/Contreras

Zito
Mulder
Hudson
Harden
Duchscherer

and sadly
Prior
Wood
Zambrano
Clement
Cruz


Well, it could - but it isn't. It isn't top 4. It could be somewhere in the next tier of pitching staffs, I guess.

you're looking at 1,2,3's...i'm looking at rotations. the yankees don't even have a rotation yet, and you're crowning them top 4? meanwhile once you get past #3 on the scrubs you get into shell shock territority. and boston: wakefield,kim, lowe? they aren't even close to that proposed 3,4,5 on the sox...

just because the 1,2, and even three are better than even our ace doesn't make it a good rotation.


think about last year when our 1,2,3 was colon, buehrle, loaiza....did we have a good rotation? our number 5 was whoever won the coinflip before the game....we had a lousy rotation last year because it's important to have strength up and down the rotation

voodoochile
12-17-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
I don't think we should assume we have any shot at Ponson.

But now they've got all that extra money to spend. Why wouldn't they up the offer to Sidney?

Lots of smoke and mirrors and all of it is intended to make JR wealthier, nothing more and nothing less...

anewman35
12-17-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by jabrch

Zito
Mulder
Hudson
Harden
Duchscherer


Don't forget Redman. So, does that make Harden their #5? Wow. I'm so glad we're in the central.

Fenway
12-17-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
Welcome to WSI!


Reading your board, I keep getting confused when I see the word Sox used.


In these neck of the woods there is only one Sox :D:

Pats are 12 and 2 appear to be in great shape for the playoffs and sports radio WEEI is all BoSox all the time. I thought after the crushing loss of Game 7 in the Bronx, people would be down in the dumps all winter, if anything the hysteria has increased.

I am sad that the BoSox and ChiSox don't play more. Very few Boston fans will forget the home opener at Fenway when Carlton Fisk won it for the WS and the Fenway fans cheered.


Of course I have one memory that some of you don't want to remember


Josephson flies to right, Tartabull has a weak arm, here comes Berry .....HE IS OUT AT THE PLATE HE IS OUT AT THE PLATE

The late great Ken Coleman

fquaye149
12-17-2003, 12:08 PM
oh and 18-year old lefty greg miller? espn.com has this to say about him

Miller is for real.......All of his numbers are above average or excellent, and his K-rate in Double-A was especially nice. Given his youth, it's all the more fascinating......Miller has a fastball in the 90s, and uses a knucklecurve as a killer out-pitch. He's also improved his changeup, and his command and control are obviously very solid. He also has the mound presence of a veteran, despite being just 18. On his own terms, he has everything you look for.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1609981



not someone i'd mind having in my farm system...

when you consider we get mota, perez, and williamson for maggs, plus this young buck...

PLUS clear up some big time salary so we can continue to add to our staff? it's really not too shabby imo.

joecrede
12-17-2003, 12:10 PM
WSCR reports that the Sox will keep Nomar unless the Dodgers also take Konerko.

KW has gone from having no leverage to holding all the cards. Some very good general managing going on over there on 35th.

jabrch
12-17-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
WSCR reports that the Sox will keep Nomar unless the Dodgers also take Konerko.

KW has gone from having no leverage to holding all the cards. Some very good general managing going on over there on 35th.

If Kenny pulls this off, there will be a lot of people here who will have been dead wrong.

This is a fine job by KW of not overplaying his hand and waiting to see what he can do. I will reserve judgement until after it is all done, but we could end up very very strong next year.

ssang
12-17-2003, 12:29 PM
I would love the 3-way deal to happen!!!

Get rid of Mags and his HIGH priced contract for.....

Odalis Perez (solid starter), Mota (great relief pitcher), Scott Williamson (solid relief pitcher), and ths Greg Miller kid (awesome potential) all for Maggs!! Plus we can free up the $$ and sign Ponson. Our rotation would be one of the best in baseball and it certainlt would be the deepest IMO (don't forget an improving Garland). Also, our bullpen would be real solid and we have the Miller kid for our future rotation. And maybe we'll finally see if Borchard will pan out (pessemistic on this). If not Borchard, than I have faith in the young stud, Jeremy reed.

All in all, I would LOVE this trade. Pitching wins....period.

santo=dorf
12-17-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Don't forget Redman. So, does that make Harden their #5? Wow. I'm so glad we're in the central.

I remember reading somewhere that the A's might make Harden their closer. I also remember Peter Gammons talk about him being the next big thing. After he lost to the Sox he completely fell off the map.

inta
12-17-2003, 12:43 PM
i love how when sosa was possibly going to leave for free agency, the cubs made it work. but our cheap ass owner cant keep maggz.

this deal makes me want to puke.
i've always felt so lucky to have maggz on our team, it's going to be so depressing watching him become a national darling this year in boston.... thinking of what could've been.

good luck maggs.

FJA
12-17-2003, 12:44 PM
First of all, I will be sad to see Maggs go, but I understand the necessity. I agree that "pitching wins, period," but I'm not so sure that we wouldn't otherwise be able to acquire pitchers of similar quality in other trades or on the free agent market. That being said, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed with the three-way trade from a talent standpoint given finances. But does anyone really think it makes us a favorite in anything other than the increasingly awful AL Central?

From a PR standpoint, coming off the season of the Cubbie Kool-Aid,with Dan Ryan construction on the horizon, and higher ticket prices to come, we need players who put butts in the seats, or we might be in a more serious Reinsdorf financial "crisis" in the not too distant future. Maggs brought people to the park. Nomar would bring people to the park. Odalis Perez is not going to bring people to the park. If the fans are going to be to blame for Reinsdorf not spending more money, this is something we have to think about. Sure, winning also brings people to the park, but I don't think the pitching we will get makes us anymore than the 1-0, 2-0 loss machine that we saw at times last year. I'm skeptical, at best, that this doesn't move us in circles, or turn us into a poor man's version of last year's Dodgers.

anewman35
12-17-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by inta
i love how when sosa was possibly going to leave for free agency, the cubs made it work. but our cheap ass owner cant keep maggz.


It's a totally different situtation. IIRC, Sosa has a contract for a few more years, he just had the chance to opt out, and he chose not to. It's much more like the Thomas deal than it is like Mags.

kittle42
12-17-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by ssang
Pitching wins....period.

Bartolo Colon was a good pitcher.

anewman35
12-17-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by FJA
From a PR standpoint, coming off the season of the Cubbie Kool-Aid,with Dan Ryan construction on the horizon, and higher ticket prices to come, we need players who put butts in the seats, or we might be in a more serious Reinsdorf financial "crisis" in the not too distant future. Maggs brought people to the park. Nomar would bring people to the park. Odalis Perez is not going to bring people to the park.

People (at least, the vast majority of people) don't go to the park to see Magglio, or to see Nomar, or to see any one player (some road players, maybe, but not a player who is there 81 times a year). They come to see the team, and if we win, it will more than balance out the people who just came to see Magglio.

anewman35
12-17-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
Bartolo Colon was a good pitcher.

He was. We offered him a perfectly fair and good contract, and somebody out bid us. What's your point?

ssang
12-17-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
Bartolo Colon was a good pitcher.


Yes, we know. Your point?? He's gone. He wasn't expected to be back. Let's move on.

PaulDrake
12-17-2003, 12:53 PM
First of all, I will be sad to see Maggs go, but I understand the necessity. I can't, don't and won't understand. Only an offer that knocks your socks off is right by me. What I see here is mostly depressing.

FJA
12-17-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
I can't, don't and won't understand. Only an offer that knocks your socks off is right by me. What I see here is mostly depressing.

I agree it's depressing, but as far as it being a "necessity," given that this is the Reinsdorf White Sox, there was no way in hell we'd resign Maggs. I think KW would like to keep Maggs too, but he's talking trade because he knows there's no way his boss will give him money next year to keep him.

batmanZoSo
12-17-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
December 17, 2003


The Red Sox moved a gigantic step closer to finishing the long-awaited trade for superstar Alex Rodriguez when they agreed yesterday to send shortstop Nomar Garciaparra to the White Sox for outfielder Magglio Ordońez, contingent upon completion of the Rodriguez-for-Manny Ramirez megadeal, National League sources told Newsday yesterday.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-nomar173588313dec17,0,920955.story?coll=ny-sports-span-headlines

I'll believe it when it happens, but assuming it does, oh what a wonderful world it would be. Williamson is the perfect fit for our bullpen being a great setup guy and backup for the inevitable Koch belly flop (coming to theatres 2004). This part makes me just as giddy as Nomar because with Williamson we'll be straight up improving, but with Nomar we're trading superstars.

FJA
12-17-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
People (at least, the vast majority of people) don't go to the park to see Magglio, or to see Nomar, or to see any one player (some road players, maybe, but not a player who is there 81 times a year). They come to see the team, and if we win, it will more than balance out the people who just came to see Magglio.

I don't mean that people come to literally stare down Magglio in RF. What I mean is that he puts a face (or jersey number) on White Sox baseball that attracts a lot of people. He's a reason for casual fans to come and see the team. I don't think the pitching package that's being talked about is going to have us winning in ways that can replace that from a PR standpoint.

People like those on this board will go to see the White Sox regardless. But especially with an owner like Reinsdorf, the shrinking hardcore contingent isn't going to be enough to support a winning team. Not given all the outside factors, some of which I previously mentioned (Dan Ryan construction, high ticket prices, Cubbie Kool-Aid, etc.).

compy75
12-17-2003, 01:05 PM
Guys, I usually stay on the AOL board but figured I provide my breakdown of this deal and maybe what it could entail.Initially, I figured for PR it would actually do the White Sox well to keep Garciaparra. It would spur ticket sales, and the PR hit after the season wouldn't be as much as letting Maggs. Add in the fact that productive can be had at a very cheap cost. I believe that route would help the White Sox needs accordingly.
On the other hand, I am also on board that this Greg Miller is the real deal. The telling stat is his Strikeouts to innings pitched along with walks. His minor league numbers actually are very comparable to Prior. The thing we have to take into consideration is that Perez is not as good as many think he is. He had a 4.52 ERA with DODGER STADIUM as his home park. DS is easily the biggest pitcher park in baseball. Look at his splits, ERA under 3 at home, in the mid FIVES away from home. He also gave up 28 HR which does not translate well to Comiskey. Clearly in 2002, his numbers were better but again he depended on his park. In 2001, his numbers were less than with an ERA at 4.90. I just don't see it. As for Moto, it does appear he's legitimate his numbers are actually better AWAY from DS, plus he's young. But again he's a reliever, they aren't exactly difficult to find in the open market and aren't really costly. Add in the fact that Moto is 30, who knows how long he would be able to bring in the gas. Same to be said about Williamson, a solid MR/Closer type. If there is a position you can fill cheaply with minor leaguers, it's the bullpen. Look at the effective mediocre prospects who have been effective for the Sox in the past, Wunsch comes to mind immediately long with Lowe.
In the end this deal would center upon Greg Miller. If he's as dominating as I think he might be, it works out for the Sox. The problem is that 1) He's a minor leaguer 2) He can't help right away 3) He hasn't worked and thrown the innings of a ML starter thus he may be prone an injury. I am pretty indifferent towards the deal, it seems by this deal that the Jer may be taking a flier from Oakland which allows pitching to allow a small budget and contend. Some have said that this deal would give the Sox the best staff in the Central, let's be fair..only Buehrle is a known commodity. Loazia has been journeyman and by the end of the year showed to be a cross b/w his dominating self and his mediocre one. Garland I firmly believe will come around and servicable. The addition of Perez smells a little bit like Todd Ritchie to me. Both players are similar in their career makeup. How does this give a dominating staff? Sure the bullpen would be good but if you don't have a lead who cares.
Our offense is massively depleted with the loss of Maggs. DOes anyone ever after two years really think Harris can hit? Other than Thomas no one draws a freakin walk and aside form Lee really hit for average, our OBP will be among the worst in baseball. OLivo is a solid defensive catcher who would be fine in a high octane offense, Rowand has proven to be nothing but at best a mediocre outfielder. Crede is solid but hardly strikes fear, while Konerko has serious problems at the plate as the league seems to have realized he tries to pull everything and can't lay off the breaking ball down and in. Valentin gives us pop but a putrid average and OBP. Oh yeah and where are the lefthanded hitters? Where is our leadoff hitter, WHO WILL GET ON BASE? No one can draw a walk. AS "great" as our lineup was last year it was among the worst in average, OBP and runs. This year it has a bigger hit.
In the end, if we get prospects for Maggs in the end, 1) We'll have a questionable product on the field for next year 2) It will destroy our Public Relations. As an owner the Jer has to keep this in mind. I think there is a decent chance, many not informed will get excited about the Nomar deal and season tickets will actually increase or at least not be a hit. If we deal Nomar, the stadium will be EMPTY. Last year, it was the move at midseason that propelled people to come to the ballpark, the excitement of two former All Stars. People weren't there in April when the Sox were legitimate favorites. It's a tough call for Jer, and I just think for his outlook it might be better to keep Nomar and Williamson, ride out the year, lose Nomar as expected then go from there.

Smokin Joe

"The Sox should take the US Cell money and pay for the implosion of the Metrodome"

kittle42
12-17-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by ssang
Yes, we know. Your point?? He's gone. He wasn't expected to be back. Let's move on.

The point is we shouldn't.....bah, I was going to ramble on about how full of crap JR is and how we shouldn't accept everyone just leaving, etc., but that's been discussed left and right.

jabrch
12-17-2003, 01:07 PM
:tomatoaward

jeremyb1
12-17-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
If we get Scott Williamson, Odalis Perez, Guilliermo Mota, and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball for Ordonez then KW is GM of the year. What a steal that would be...

I completely agree, especially if the 8 million in savings is invested well (Juan Gone?).

StepsInSC
12-17-2003, 01:10 PM
I havn't seen it mentioned in this thread so sorry if I missed it, but yahoo is saying that in exchange for Maggs we could get Nomar, Williamson, AND Kim from the BoSox.

Personally I'd take it, Kim just sweetens it.
G...GS W L SV CG SHO IP......H...R....ER..HR..BB..K....ERA.WHIP.BAA
7....7...1..5 0...0....0....43.0..34..17..17..6....15..33..3.56 1.14 .214
49...5...8.516..0....0....79.1..70..38..28..6....1 8..69..3.18 1.11 .230

Hard to read so I tried to make it better with some periods, but his cumulative 2003 stats, nice IMO.

I like how someone mentioned earlier its the kind of trade where the casual fan just sees the team getting rid of the best player in exchange for 'nobodies', but then if we could turn around and dump Nomar off to LA...all that salary and all that good pitching we would have.

The past two world series teams have been filled with 'nobodies' as far as the casual fan goes. Hell Garrett Anderson was by far the Angel's best hitter.

Lip Man 1
12-17-2003, 01:22 PM
Folks:

PLEASE relax. Nothing has happened yet and nobody knows what the hell is going on. While the Tribune and Newsday are talking about this story, the Sun-Times on their web site has a story that says nothing is going to happen that this deal won't take place.

Remember the Ohio stories about the Sox having already signed Ponson? if it happens, it happens...let's wait until then shall we?

and on Colon remember a percentage of the contract was deferred money (maybe without interest) and full of incentives. Bart obviously didn't like those terms and knew he'd get an offer more to his liking...and he did. So how 'genuine' in reality was this offer? (Sounds like a token one to me...)

The moral of the story...if you want the best players who have to pay the price. That's paying in real dollars right now without all the screw ball clauses like diminshed skills, paying for performance (which the courts ruled violated the CBA in the late 80's angering Reinsdorf), incentives and deferred money.

It may be great business sense to the Sox but obviously they can't get players to buy into it so what's the point?

Lip

miker
12-17-2003, 01:25 PM
Hey, Lip just turned off our hot stove! :smile:

So let's say A-Rod for Manny doesn't happen, and then the proposed chain of events is broken...now what do we have to feel good about (other than Peter Gammons broken heart?)

rcescato
12-17-2003, 01:26 PM
there are a few things i heard. One is that if Nomar comes here he might be traded to tyhe dodgers for more pitching. If that happens I would be disappointed. The other thing is Valentin
might be traded to the mariners. Hopefully it will be for Freddy Garcia. Then we will have 2 bullpen pitchers and a starter with Nomar at ss. That would make us a very good team.
i will miss maggs but we haven't won with him.
Rich

anewman35
12-17-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

and on Colon remember a percentage of the contract was deferred money (maybe without interest) and full of incentives. Bart obviously didn't like those terms and knew he'd get an offer more to his liking...and he did. So how 'genuine' in reality was this offer? (Sounds like a token one to me...)

The moral of the story...if you want the best players who have to pay the price. That's paying in real dollars right now without all the screw ball clauses like diminshed skills, paying for performance (which the courts ruled violated the CBA in the late 80's angering Reinsdorf), incentives and deferred money.


Do you know Bartolo Colon or his agent? Are they close personal friends of yours? If not, I really don't think you can possibly know what they liked and what they didn't. And, no, you can't even really believe anything they tell the press, players lie to the press all the time to benefit themselves. Face it, we'll never know the White Sox true offer, we'll never know why Bartolo didn't like it, and he's gone. It happens.

maurice
12-17-2003, 01:34 PM
I must say, all the possibilities wobble the mind. Keeping Nomar would make the trade palatable and generate excitement around the Sox. Trading Mags to Boston and Nomar to LA (while potentially a stronger move) would be a PR disaster.

Ideally, the Sox would keep Nomar and Williamson, trade Valentin for Guillen, trade prospects for Everett, and spend some money to sign Ponson. If JR would approve the relatively modest budget needed to get it done, I could live with a team comprised of:

Guillen - 2B
Lee - LF
Nomar - SS
Thomas - 1B
Everett - RF
Konerko - DH
Crede - 3B
Olivo - C
Rowand / Reed / LTP - CF

Alomar/Burke/Rivera - C
Uribe - IF
Harris - 2B/CF
Gload - 1B/OF
Hankins - C/IF/OF

Loaiza
Buehrle
Ponson
Garland
Schoenweis/Rauch/Cotts/FA

Marte
Williamson
Wunsch
Koch
Wright

jabrch
12-17-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I must say, all the possibilities wobble the mind. Keeping Nomar would make the trade palatable and generate excitement around the Sox. Trading Mags to Boston and Nomar to LA (while potentially a stronger move) would be a PR disaster.

Ideally, the Sox would keep Nomar and Williamson, trade Valentin for Guillen, trade prospects for Everett, and spend some money to sign Ponson. If JR would approve the relatively modest budget needed to get it done, I could live with a team comprised of:

Guillen - 2B
Lee - LF
Nomar - SS
Thomas - 1B
Everett - RF
Konerko - DH
Crede - 3B
Olivo - C
Rowand / Reed / LTP - CF

Alomar/Burke/Rivera - C
Uribe - IF
Harris - 2B/CF
Gload - 1B/OF
Hankins - C/IF/OF

Loaiza
Buehrle
Ponson
Garland
Schoenweis/Rauch/Cotts/FA

Marte
Williamson
Wunsch
Koch
Wright


Maurice - add in get someone to take PK (Seattle or Boston) and use that money to sign Juan Gonzalez to play RF/DH and you have a deal. I'll take it.

34 Inch Stick
12-17-2003, 02:40 PM
I have that historically with these big trades the team that gets the best player is the one that ultimately benefits the greatest. If you scrutinize the trade using this thinking the Sox would be the loser. Boston gets Maggs, LA gets Nomar.

I don't necessarily subscribe to this theory but it is just another point to talk about in a double tomato looking post.

DaveGusinSeattle
12-17-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by miker
Hey, Lip just turned off our hot stove! :smile:

So let's say A-Rod for Manny doesn't happen, and then the proposed chain of events is broken...now what do we have to feel good about (other than Peter Gammons broken heart?)

OOOOOOOEEEEEOOOOOOOO, Magglio STAYS!

:D:

BTW Just say NO to Garcia, he s*cks....

boog_alou
12-17-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I must say, all the possibilities wobble the mind. Keeping Nomar would make the trade palatable and generate excitement around the Sox. Trading Mags to Boston and Nomar to LA (while potentially a stronger move) would be a PR disaster.

Ideally, the Sox would keep Nomar and Williamson, trade Valentin for Guillen, trade prospects for Everett, and spend some money to sign Ponson. If JR would approve the relatively modest budget needed to get it done, I could live with a team comprised of:

Guillen - 2B
Lee - LF
Nomar - SS
Thomas - 1B
Everett - RF
Konerko - DH
Crede - 3B
Olivo - C
Rowand / Reed / LTP - CF

Alomar/Burke/Rivera - C
Uribe - IF
Harris - 2B/CF
Gload - 1B/OF
Hankins - C/IF/OF

Loaiza
Buehrle
Ponson
Garland
Schoenweis/Rauch/Cotts/FA

Marte
Williamson
Wunsch
Koch
Wright

The payroll for that team would be over $66 million. That doesn't work. It is 6-8 million over budget.

maurice
12-17-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I must say, all the possibilities wobble the mind. Keeping Nomar would make the trade palatable and generate excitement around the Sox. Trading Mags to Boston and Nomar to LA (while potentially a stronger move) would be a PR disaster.

Ideally, the Sox would keep Nomar and Williamson, trade Valentin for Guillen, trade prospects for Everett, and spend some money to sign Ponson. If JR would approve the relatively modest budget needed to get it done, I could live with a team comprised of:

Guillen - 2B
Lee - LF
Nomar - SS
Thomas - 1B
Everett - RF
Konerko - DH
Crede - 3B
Olivo - C
Rowand / Reed / LTP - CF

Alomar/Burke/Rivera - C
Uribe - IF
Harris - 2B/CF
Gload - 1B/OF
Hankins - C/IF/OF

Loaiza
Buehrle
Ponson
Garland
Schoenweis/Rauch/Cotts/FA

Marte
Williamson
Wunsch
Koch
Wright

Originally posted by boog_alou
The payroll for that team would be over $66 million. That doesn't work. It is 6-8 million over budget.

Which is why I used deeppink and said "[i]f JR would approve the relatively modest budget needed to get it done." IMHO, a budget around $66 million is a "relatively modest budget" and would represent a reasonable response to the cubs (relative) success.

Then again, if you could top it off by moving Konerko and/or Koch in a salary dump . . .

boog_alou
12-17-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Which is why I used deeppink and said "[i]f JR would approve the relatively modest budget needed to get it done." IMHO, a budget around $66 million is a "relatively modest budget" and would represent a reasonable response to the cubs (relative) success.

However, that "reasonably modest budget represents an almost 27% increase from the 2003 Opening Day budget. While you might, I don't think JR would find that kind of increase to be reasonable.

maurice
12-17-2003, 04:25 PM
According to my calculations, it represents only a 14% increase over the current (embarrisingly low) rumored payroll level. Given the payrolls of other big-city clubs, the recent success of the cubs, and the beating the Sox will take at the gate if they suck this season, anything less would be masochistic, IMO. It would be an investment in the future viability of the franchise. The deeppink reflects my agreement that JR probably disagrees.

boog_alou
12-17-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by maurice
According to my calculations, it represents only a 14% increase over the current (embarrisingly low) rumored payroll level. Given the payrolls of other big-city clubs, the recent success of the cubs, and the beating the Sox will take at the gate if they suck this season, anything less would be masochistic, IMO. It would be an investment in the future viability of the franchise. The deeppink reflects my agreement that JR probably disagrees.

The Opening Day budget in 2003 was $52 million. KW said the payroll would only "increase marginally". $58 million is an 11.5% increase. $60 million is a 15% increase. That already stretches the bounds of "marginal". I don't think there is ANY chance that JR will go as high as $66 million. $58 (as reported in the media) is much more likely.

I think he should spend more, but it ain't happening.

chisox06
12-17-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
You're completely wrong. You're overlooking the fact that we'd get Mota and Williamson in the deal, which is crucial. That shores up our bullpen, and with Perez we get a solid #3 starter. I love Maggs, but our offense is not going to go in the tank without him. Lee is coming into his own and will pick up a lot of the slack, and if Konerko returns to 2002 form, the offense will be fine.

All that said, I would prefer signing Maggs to a longterm extension ... but it ain't gonna happen, and if we have to move him, this is about as good as we could hope for.

well considering LA as of right now has dropped outa the deal and KW is still willing to ship mags, I would like to go on the basis of being exactly right. Mags for Nomar and Williamson who is a decent if not average pitcher at best sounds like a nice shaft job to me. This guys ERA was over 6 last year, yea thats impressive. Now if was can use Nomar and possibly Konerko for some damn good pitchers I would be all for it. but with LA dropping outa the deal it doesnt seem like thats gonna happen now.

anewman35
12-17-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
well considering LA as of right now has dropped outa the deal and KW is still willing to ship mags, I would like to go on the basis of being exactly right. Mags for Nomar and Williamson who is a decent if not average pitcher at best sounds like a nice shaft job to me.

How is trading a star for a star, plus getting a decent pitcher, the shaft? You do realize that Nomar is good, right?

MHOUSE
12-17-2003, 04:41 PM
My perfect scenario if this trade goes down:

Maggs & prospects to Boston

Nomar & Williamson to ChiSox

Konerko to LA for Perez

Valentin to Seattle for Garcia

IMO, this is the best scenario we could ask for. Even better if Nomar decides to stick around for more than a year. If Nomar walks then it's a wash. We add a reliever and save 2 or 3 million $ for equal rentaplayers in Maggs and Nomar who'd both be gone. If we deal Nomar for pitching then we open a HUGE hole in the offense, but solve our pitching problem. If we unload Magg's contract for pitching then we'd have to spend the extra money on a bat, maybe Juan-Gon? It seems smarter to keep Nomar.

StepsInSC
12-17-2003, 04:47 PM
Jason Stark is saying that Neal Cott's name has been mentioned as the prospect the BoSox would get.

fledgedrallycap
12-17-2003, 04:47 PM
I don't know how anyone could be against this deal outside of just having a personal affection for number 30. We may be picking up one of the best shorts stops in the game, a perenial batting title champ; gold glover at the most important position in the field. I love Magglio, but you have to objectivly look at the situation. We are soooo close to finally getting a short stop the White Sox deserve since Aparicio....

D'Angelo F Death
12-18-2003, 10:42 AM
Puh-lease. Nomar can't hit anymore except at Fenway, his road numbers sincce his wrist injury three years ago are worse than Valentin's(!), and the Sox lineup gets considerably weakened with Mags out. I'll take your word for it that he's a better fielder than Jose, but there's no way he can be saving as many runs with the glove as Mags would get us with the big stick. Not to mention #30 is a helluva RF. Here's one Sox fan who's just praying the A-Rod domino doesn't topple.

Tragg
12-18-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by michned
The trade works from the White Sox perspective because even if Nomar leaves after one season (and he will), let's face it, they were not going to sign Maggs anyway after '04. This way they get a closer (Williamson) and a top-flight rent-a-player in Nomar.

This frees the Sox up to move Valentin or to at least put him at 2B. I sort of like this deal because they get two solid players for Maggs, and if they waited until July to trade Maggs, they would probably just get prospects for him.

But what about this trade versus a trade that might actually help us with our problems - too much salary tied up in one player (still true), no lead off hitter, lack of starting pitching.

I hope we send him to LA and get some young pitchers and a young infielder - that will help us a lot more long term.

And when Boston is trying to unload this player, it give credence to the belief that he is a player on the decline.

DaveGusinSeattle
12-22-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by D'Angelo F Death
Puh-lease. Nomar can't hit anymore except at Fenway, his road numbers sincce his wrist injury three years ago are worse than Valentin's(!), and the Sox lineup gets considerably weakened with Mags out. I'll take your word for it that he's a better fielder than Jose, but there's no way he can be saving as many runs with the glove as Mags would get us with the big stick. Not to mention #30 is a helluva RF. Here's one Sox fan who's just praying the A-Rod domino doesn't topple.

I agree with you!!! Nomar will be shipped to L.A. if the trade goes through, and once again, we have "prospects". Lets get a starting pitcher with the 12M/yr. that we were willing to pay Colon.
Then we need a second baseman, also a CF.
Who are these fledgedrallycap
"a perenial batting title champ; gold glover at the most important position in the field" ?

Magglio, Please say it ain't so, negotiate now w/the Sox :(:
[He wanted to wait till after the '04 season to iron out a contract.]