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Tekijawa
12-15-2003, 02:51 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1686888


$3 Million this year
$4 Million next!

Are we seriously THAT poor?

nodiggity59
12-15-2003, 02:54 PM
We did not have the oppurtunity to sign him at that price. We could either offer him arbitration- where he could have got 9mil- or release him and not negotiate until May 1.

Please dont just blindly whine.

rmusacch
12-15-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
We did not have the oppurtunity to sign him at that price. We could either offer him arbitration- where he could have got 9mil- or release him and not negotiate until May 1.

Please dont just blindly whine.

He was a free agent. We could have signed him for what we wanted.

ssang
12-15-2003, 02:56 PM
F U Jerrsy Reinsdorf!!!! I hate you. I wish you would fall off the face of the earth and NEVER return. We need a new owner. We DESERVE a new owner. I hate you Jerry, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!!! I think I'm gonna cry myself to sleep now. Oh yeah.....and I hate Jerry Reinsdorf too!

Tekijawa
12-15-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
We did not have the oppurtunity to sign him at that price. We could either offer him arbitration- where he could have got 9mil- or release him and not negotiate until May 1.

Please dont just blindly whine.

SOOOOOOOOOOOO, you're saying the cheapest we could get him for was $9 Million? I believe that up until Dec 7th we could have negoitiated for what ever we thought he was worth. I think even Kenny thought he was worth more than $3 Million

They Got a Steal... and this is not blindly whining!

duke of dorwood
12-15-2003, 02:59 PM
To answer the question, they are NOT poor, and you'd like a dime for every buck that that team generates

BamaDoc
12-15-2003, 03:01 PM
This is exactly what i had mentioned in a previous post, that when a player making a large sum of money is overpriced he ends up going to another team. The pride of most athletes will not allow them to accept a 50% paycut from their current employer. This explains the nontender because even with a max paycut he would have gotten nearly as much in 1 year via accepting arbitration as what he ended up with. Case in point Greg Maddux accepting arbitration last year caught the Braves by surprise and they lost Millwood to make payroll. What would we have said about KW if that happened to us?

Foulke You
12-15-2003, 03:01 PM
Wow. I'm stunned. I thought Everett would command more than a 2 year $7 million offer. Unbelievable that the Sox couldn't have resigned him at that price. Now we are losing players to Montreal??!!! Another big market powerhouse like Montreal swoops in and steals a player from the small market Chicago White Sox.

:reinsy
"My Personal Magic Number- $58 million"

duke of dorwood
12-15-2003, 03:04 PM
:reinsy

"My real Magic # ? 0 Fans

Foulke You
12-15-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by BamaDoc
This is exactly what i had mentioned in a previous post, that when a player making a large sum of money is overpriced he ends up going to another team. The pride of most athletes will not allow them to accept a 50% paycut from their current employer. This explains the nontender because even with a max paycut he would have gotten nearly as much in 1 year via accepting arbitration as what he ended up with. Case in point Greg Maddux accepting arbitration last year caught the Braves by surprise and they lost Millwood to make payroll. What would we have said about KW if that happened to us?

The only problem with that thinking is that technically, Everett was never an employee of the Sox because he was still getting paid by the Rangers. The contract he had was signed while in Arlington, Texas and had little to do with his situation in Chicago since Texas was still paying out his cash when he was here. Reinsdorf wanted a rent-a-player and had no intention of resigning him at ANY PRICE. If Reinsdorf had to pay for any of Everett's 2003 salary or a possible 2004 salary he would have never signed off on the deal to bring him here last year. That is the way he works. Why have Everett at $4 million when he can have inexpensive Aaron Rowand (he of the league minimum salary range) patrol CF in 2004?

TaylorStSox
12-15-2003, 03:05 PM
Maybe others think that an aging, slow power hitter whose a defensive liability wasn't worth signing for 2 years. :D:


I'll :gulp: to not signing him.

pudge
12-15-2003, 03:06 PM
I'm shocked too, but it could be a case of Everett not really knowing what he's worth until he stepped out into the market. The rule about not being able to resign until May 1 really sucks, because it basically guarantees these players won't stick with their old teams.

Then again, would we even want Everett as a full-time CF? He's simply not a CF.

anewman35
12-15-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Wow. I'm stunned. I thought Everett would command more than a 2 year $7 million offer. Unbelievable that the Sox couldn't have resigned him at that price. Now we are losing players to Montreal??!!! [

What's with everybody always assuming that it's always the team's decision to keep the player or not? What if the Sox wanted him, offered him as much money, and, for whatever reason, he just didn't want to stay? I'm sure it happens.

Who knows why he went to Montreal - maybe he wanted to go to the NL, maybe he loves Canada, maybe he's just crazy (oh, wait, we already know that he is). Anyways, it's really not fair to always just go blaming the Sox or JR if you don't know both sides of the story.

Iwritecode
12-15-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Are we seriously THAT poor?

In a word, yes.

Just ask Jerry...

jeremyb1
12-15-2003, 03:11 PM
KW badly wanted Everett to return and we've apparently 6 million a year to Ponson and 10 million a year to Colon so obviously we could've and would've paid everett 7 million over two seasons to return. However, as previously explained in this thread, players don't want to accept that type of paycut without exploring the market more thoroughly. Furthermore, they don't want to abandon the chance - no matter how small - of being offered arbitration and commanding only a 20% paycut (which would've been about 7 million for Everett).

Tekijawa
12-15-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Maybe others think that an aging, slow power hitter whose a defensive liability wasn't worth signing for 2 years. :D:


I'll :gulp: to not signing him.

I think we'll miss a $3 million dollar guy like him when:

A.) Frank Gets Traded
B.) Lee Gets Traded
C.) Konerko Gets Traded
D.) Magglio Gets Traded
E.) All of the above

He was a pretty bad CF, but as a DH or corner outfielder, I'd keep him at that price...

ma-gaga
12-15-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
we could've and would've paid everett 7 million over two seasons to return.
...
Furthermore, they don't want to abandon the chance - no matter how small - of being offered arbitration and commanding only a 20% paycut (which would've been about 7 million for Everett).

It's the same thing that happened to the Twins last year with David Ortiz. If the Twins had offered him arbitration he would have likely commanded $2.5MM. The Twins couldn't chance that, so they non-tendered him and Boston picked him up for cheap.

It's a good deal for the Expos, and the Sox couldn't make a competetive offer because of the goofy arbitration rules.

ondafarm
12-15-2003, 03:21 PM
Another ex-Sox signing elsewhere $7 million guarenteed over two years, options follow.

voodoochile
12-15-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Another ex-Sox signing elsewhere $7 million guarenteed over two years, options follow.

That's just sad. He is worth that much easily. It would reduce the sting of trading Maggs too.

poorme
12-15-2003, 03:24 PM
Everett could have signed a similar deal with the sox before the arbitration deadline. However, I'm sure he thought he could do better. Either that or KW didn't make him a similar offer.

voodoochile
12-15-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
In a word, yes.

Just ask Jerry...

:reinsy
"Poor... I like that word. Way better than calling me a cheap bastard. Maybe I can get some more financial aid from the state seeing as I am so pu... (chuckles)... poo...(giggles)...poor... (laughs out loud and strolls off toward the bank)...

BamaDoc
12-15-2003, 03:31 PM
jeremyb1: I completely agree. Everett at 3 million in left as a replacement for a traded Lee makes sense, but otherwise he had no position on this team. He was a liability in center and we have a plethora of DH personel that would be much harder to move and had much less value. I believe other free agents, though of less talent, will be available for significant discounts as spring training approaches. Patience is the rule for teams acting as if they were small market. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe we are but that is the boss's budget.

Foulke You
12-15-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
What's with everybody always assuming that it's always the team's decision to keep the player or not? What if the Sox wanted him, offered him as much money, and, for whatever reason, he just didn't want to stay? I'm sure it happens.

Who knows why he went to Montreal - maybe he wanted to go to the NL, maybe he loves Canada, maybe he's just crazy (oh, wait, we already know that he is). Anyways, it's really not fair to always just go blaming the Sox or JR if you don't know both sides of the story.

You go to the Montreal Expos for the following reasons:

A) You are young and just want to play in the majors
B) You are a veteran and they make the highest offer out of the pool of available teams. Veterans aren't going there for the cold weather or the archaic 80% empty dome with French speaking fans. They also aren't a contender so you can rule out being on a winning team as a reason to go there too. Trust me, Montreal made him the highest offer and he took it. Our owner doesn't know how to make the highest offer to keep his churro vendors let alone a quality bat like Everett's.

anewman35
12-15-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
You go to the Montreal Expos for the following reasons:

A) You are young and just want to play in the majors
B) You are a veteran and they make the highest offer out of the pool of available teams. Veterans aren't going there for the cold weather or the archaic 80% empty dome with French speaking fans. They also aren't a contender so you can rule out being on a winning team as a reason to go there too. Trust me, Montreal made him the highest offer and he took it. Our owner doesn't know how to make the highest offer to keep his churro vendors let alone a quality bat like Everett's.

What about

C) The Chicago White Sox offer you $8 million, 2 year contract in November. You say no, since you're sure you can make more. The White Sox don't offer arbitration, because they think you might take it and cost them too much, meaning they can't resign you until May. The Montreal Expos offer you a 2 year $7 million contract, which is the highest current offer you have, so you take it.

Not saying that's what happened, but it's quite possible, isn't it? I'm not sure, but didn't KW say they'd offer Everitt abritration (to extend their window to sign him) if he'd agree not to take it?

MisterB
12-15-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
He was a free agent. We could have signed him for what we wanted.

No we couldn't. He could have been offered arbitration, where the Sox would have had to pay him a minimum if $7.3M next year (the maximum 20% reduction allowed in the CBA). Instead, they declined to offer him arbitration at which point they couldn't negotiate with him until May 1 (although every other team could negotiate with him immediately). The only way the Sox could have signed Crazy Carl for that deal is if no other team had signed him by May 1.

Tekijawa
12-15-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
No we couldn't. He could have been offered arbitration, where the Sox would have had to pay him a minimum if $7.3M next year (the maximum 20% reduction allowed in the CBA). Instead, they declined to offer him arbitration at which point they couldn't negotiate with him until May 1 (although every other team could negotiate with him immediately). The only way the Sox could have signed Crazy Carl for that deal is if no other team had signed him by May 1.

They could of, we were offering Alomar $3 Million... I guess we chose the wrong guy to make the offer too.

anewman35
12-15-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
They could of, we were offering Alomar $3 Million... I guess we chose the wrong guy to make the offer too.

See what I said above. We could have offered him that before arbitration, but there's nothing to say he would have taken it, especially if he thought there would be better offers out there.

MisterB
12-15-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
They could of, we were offering Alomar $3 Million... I guess we chose the wrong guy to make the offer too.

That offer was made before Robbie filed for free agency. If the Sox did make Everett the same type of offer that the Expos did before he filed, Carl obviously passed on it and opted for free agency instead.

joecrede
12-15-2003, 04:18 PM
The problem with signing Everret, or for that matter adding any payroll, before they make deal to free up cash is once a piece is added that takes away from the Sox bargaining power.

Had they signed Everret the Dodgers could squeeze the Sox in trade discussions knowing the Sox had to deal Maggs to free up payroll.

ARoman27
12-15-2003, 04:21 PM
The fact is we could of negotiated with Carl Everett prior to the Dec. 7th deadline of offering players arbitration. KW neglected to negotiate with Everett at all because he assumed Carl would price himself out of the Sox payroll range. This is probably true because Everett knew he had the arbitration deadline and also knew other teams out there that would have interest in him. The mistake is that the Sox didn't have an off-season gameplan in place. We kept hearing KW speak about "Plan A" and "Plan B", but we never have seen him invoke these plans. Unless his "Plan A" was to see 6 players go way of FA and to Division Rivals. I guess "Plan B" could be seen as listening to trade "overtures" but not actively shopping to improve the club.

From Day 1 of the off-season KW should of actively been shopping Magglio for talent. He thus could of put an offer on the table for Everett to resume RF duties. Carl would of looked excellent in RF and with his lefty bat in the lineup, something the Sox sorely are lacking. Instead he alienated the 2 guys he stated he wanted to bring back...."grinders", Everett and Robbie Alomar. But the question should be why they were so quick to sign Jose Valentin to a 1-year/$5 million deal. Seems like they could of stalled and allowed the market to take shape (like it did) and bring down Valentin's price. Hell, Rich Aurilia is still looking for a home and LA, Seattle, Anaheim, and Detroit are still looking for a SS. I would of rather given Robbie Alomar a 2-year/$6 million deal then $5 million to Jose. Robbie solidified the infield and Willie Harris has yet to show he can hit major league pitching.

All of the mistakes this off-season can be rectified if the signing of Sidney Ponson to a 3-year/$18 million deal is true. That is a bargain. To pay a guy like Ponson half of what we were willing to pay Colon for basically the same numbers could be the best situation for the Sox. Now if we can trade Magg's to LA for Perez, Jackson, and other prospects that's still good. Even if we can't steal Mota from Dan Evans. Then go sign Juan Gonzalez for RF and if he can stay healthy we should be looking at Division Champs.

But then again all of this would entail KW making a move and my fear is that we're looking at an off-season with one move of Aaron Miles for Juan Uribe (whippee!).

pudge
12-15-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
The fact is we could of negotiated with Carl Everett prior to the Dec. 7th deadline of offering players arbitration. KW neglected to negotiate with Everett at all because he assumed Carl would price himself out of the Sox payroll range. This is probably true because Everett knew he had the arbitration deadline and also knew other teams out there that would have interest in him. The mistake is that the Sox didn't have an off-season gameplan in place. We kept hearing KW speak about "Plan A" and "Plan B", but we never have seen him invoke these plans. Unless his "Plan A" was to see 6 players go way of FA and to Division Rivals. I guess "Plan B" could be seen as listening to trade "overtures" but not actively shopping to improve the club.



This is absurd... of course he negotiated with Everett, just as he did all of his free agents. Read all the posts in this thread to understand the situation properly... Everett would not sign with the Sox in hopes of getting arbitration, that's just they way it goes.

ARoman27
12-15-2003, 04:53 PM
I understand that Everett wouldn't sign with the White Sox while he had an arbitration date looming in his favor. But please give me proof that KW negotiated with Everett? I have not seen any evidence that KW put together any sort of deal for Everett's agent to mull over. It is my understanding that he never proposed anything to him. Prove me wrong, show me evidence.

Not that this matters because I don't think the Everett camp would of taken it due to the arbitration rules. But KW could of at least put a good faith offer in. I don't even think he asked Everett to forego accepting arbitration so the Sox could keep/start negotiation with him. That is not unheard of.

voodoochile
12-15-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
The fact is we could of negotiated with Carl Everett prior to the Dec. 7th deadline of offering players arbitration. KW neglected to negotiate with Everett at all because he assumed Carl would price himself out of the Sox payroll range. This is probably true because Everett knew he had the arbitration deadline and also knew other teams out there that would have interest in him. The mistake is that the Sox didn't have an off-season gameplan in place. We kept hearing KW speak about "Plan A" and "Plan B", but we never have seen him invoke these plans. Unless his "Plan A" was to see 6 players go way of FA and to Division Rivals. I guess "Plan B" could be seen as listening to trade "overtures" but not actively shopping to improve the club.

From Day 1 of the off-season KW should of actively been shopping Magglio for talent. He thus could of put an offer on the table for Everett to resume RF duties. Carl would of looked excellent in RF and with his lefty bat in the lineup, something the Sox sorely are lacking. Instead he alienated the 2 guys he stated he wanted to bring back...."grinders", Everett and Robbie Alomar. But the question should be why they were so quick to sign Jose Valentin to a 1-year/$5 million deal. Seems like they could of stalled and allowed the market to take shape (like it did) and bring down Valentin's price. Hell, Rich Aurilia is still looking for a home and LA, Seattle, Anaheim, and Detroit are still looking for a SS. I would of rather given Robbie Alomar a 2-year/$6 million deal then $5 million to Jose. Robbie solidified the infield and Willie Harris has yet to show he can hit major league pitching.

All of the mistakes this off-season can be rectified if the signing of Sidney Ponson to a 3-year/$18 million deal is true. That is a bargain. To pay a guy like Ponson half of what we were willing to pay Colon for basically the same numbers could be the best situation for the Sox. Now if we can trade Magg's to LA for Perez, Jackson, and other prospects that's still good. Even if we can't steal Mota from Dan Evans. Then go sign Juan Gonzalez for RF and if he can stay healthy we should be looking at Division Champs.

But then again all of this would entail KW making a move and my fear is that we're looking at an off-season with one move of Aaron Miles for Juan Uribe (whippee!).

Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

Hope you are wrong, fear you are right...

doublem23
12-15-2003, 05:02 PM
If the Sox keep Lee and Ordonez (or get a COF in return on a deal), then there was no need for Everett, anyway. We need a true centerfielder, not a displaced corner.

Foulke You
12-15-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
What about

C) The Chicago White Sox offer you $8 million, 2 year contract in November. You say no, since you're sure you can make more. The White Sox don't offer arbitration, because they think you might take it and cost them too much, meaning they can't resign you until May. The Montreal Expos offer you a 2 year $7 million contract, which is the highest current offer you have, so you take it.

Not saying that's what happened, but it's quite possible, isn't it? I'm not sure, but didn't KW say they'd offer Everitt abritration (to extend their window to sign him) if he'd agree not to take it?

Yes, your scenario is certainly possible. However, I don't think it likely given the Sox recent history of lowballing and not making contract offers to their own free agents. Just my opinion. Maybe I'm just bitter watching small town teams steal away our players while our owner cries poor. :(:

hold2dibber
12-15-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
No we couldn't. He could have been offered arbitration, where the Sox would have had to pay him a minimum if $7.3M next year (the maximum 20% reduction allowed in the CBA). Instead, they declined to offer him arbitration at which point they couldn't negotiate with him until May 1 (although every other team could negotiate with him immediately). The only way the Sox could have signed Crazy Carl for that deal is if no other team had signed him by May 1.

Prior to the deadline for offeirng arbitration, the Sox could have negotiated with Carl all they wanted, and could have offered him whatever they wanted. I'm guessing they never got that far in negotiations because the Sox as currently consistituted don't have a position for Everett. He obviously is not an everday CF anymore. I would have loved to see him back if Lee or Ordonez or PK or Frank got dealt, but with none of those guys having been moved (yet) it would have been extremely foolish for the Sox to sign Everett. With a limited payroll and a team already over budget, signing a guy with no room on the roster to use him would have been idiotic. Blaming the Sox or KW for this is foolish.

pudge
12-15-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
I understand that Everett wouldn't sign with the White Sox while he had an arbitration date looming in his favor. But please give me proof that KW negotiated with Everett? I have not seen any evidence that KW put together any sort of deal for Everett's agent to mull over. It is my understanding that he never proposed anything to him. Prove me wrong, show me evidence.



We never heard any specific contract numbers regarding Sullivan either. We're not going to know everything that goes on behind closed doors, a la the Alomar situation. I'd imagine KW had a brief chat with both Everett and Sullivan to determine where those players were at. Both probably indicated they either wanted arbitration or they were going to test the market, at which point KW probably moved on to focus on Colon and Alomar.

Maybe you're arguing the Sox should have pushed harder for Everett, and I simply don't think he was worth much of an effort if he indicated he wanted to test the market.

I don't have any proof, obviously, but I highly doubt we just let Everett walk without any conversations.

ewokpelts
12-15-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by BamaDoc
This is exactly what i had mentioned in a previous post, that when a player making a large sum of money is overpriced he ends up going to another team. The pride of most athletes will not allow them to accept a 50% paycut from their current employer. This explains the nontender because even with a max paycut he would have gotten nearly as much in 1 year via accepting arbitration as what he ended up with. Case in point Greg Maddux accepting arbitration last year caught the Braves by surprise and they lost Millwood to make payroll. What would we have said about KW if that happened to us?

Atlanta told thier gm to slash payroll BEFORE maddux accepted arbitration...thier gm, in a fit of "fu"...traded millwood....pretty much sed " you wanted me to slash payroll..there ya go...slashed payroll".......greg was still looking at the market as this happened


Originally posted by Foulke You


The only problem with that thinking is that technically, Everett was never an employee of the Sox because he was still getting paid by the Rangers. The contract he had was signed while in Arlington, Texas and had little to do with his situation in Chicago since Texas was still paying out his cash when he was here. Reinsdorf wanted a rent-a-player and had no intention of resigning him at ANY PRICE. If Reinsdorf had to pay for any of Everett's 2003 salary or a possible 2004 salary he would have never signed off on the deal to bring him here last year. That is the way he works. Why have Everett at $4 million when he can have inexpensive Aaron Rowand (he of the league minimum salary range) patrol CF in 2004?

Texas gave the Sox Everett AND cash. The cash to cover his remainder of the contract. He became an employee of the Sox when they made the deal. That's why the sox decilned arbitration, NOT the rangers...
Gene

kempsted
12-16-2003, 12:19 AM
Ahhh I love this board. Just when I am finally getting depressed over the lack of progress I come here - so utterly ridiculous comments and then I feel better as I am forced to argue common sense.

Try looking around please. Almost no team signed their own free agents this year. That is because they would have to pay them more money than they are worth in the open market. Why would Carl Everett take a 2 year 7 million offer from us when we are required to offer him at least 7.2 million by the agreement with the players association in arbitration? He wouldn't. We don't know if KW offered or not but for sure he would not have taken it.