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lowesox
12-14-2003, 07:06 PM
According to ROgers lots of teams are knocking on his door for this guy. What's holding this up? This sounds like the kind of trade Kenny should be doing first since the other moves (for instance a Magglio trade) will only materialize after other FA movement completes itself. Jose is exactly the kind of player the sox don't need - he doesn't play good defense, he makes a lot of money, he's getting older, and he only swings for the fences. I say we trade him first and see where we net from there.

The problem is Kenny seems to be focusing on trading away payroll before making additions - and the FA market is drying up. If people are asking about a player - MAKE A MOVE.

Lee, Konerko, Ordonez and Thomas all seem like players who could improve next year but wouldn't everybody here be surprised if Valentin doesn't get worse next year?

Daver
12-14-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
According to ROgers lots of teams are knocking on his door for this guy. What's holding this up? This sounds like the kind of trade Kenny should be doing first since the other moves (for instance a Magglio trade) will only materialize after other FA movement completes itself. Jose is exactly the kind of player the sox don't need - he doesn't play good defense, he makes a lot of money, he's getting older, and he only swings for the fences. I say we trade him first and see where we net from there.



Who do you replace him with?

The Sox have nothing in the minors at the position,and the FA market contains no one that comes close to his talent for the money.

Why do you think his option was picked up in the first place?

Unregistered
12-14-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Who do you replace him with?

The Sox have nothing in the minors at the position,and the FA market contains no one that comes close to his talent for the money.

Why do you think his option was picked up in the first place? From MLB.COM
If Valentin were traded, Juan Uribe could step in at shortstop and form a very young middle infield with Willie Harris at second base. Williams didn’t sound worried about starting Harris, a natural second baseman who recently returned from Winter League play, or Uribe, recently acquired from Colorado for Aaron Miles.

“Uribe already has a couple of years in the league,” Williams said. “One of the reasons we got him was to enhance our options now and in the future. But that’s not to say that we don’t value Jose at all. He’s still an integral part of what we want to do.”

Daver
12-14-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
From MLB.COM


Great.

Welcome to the Juan Clayton era.


I repeat,there is no option that replaces Jose's production.

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Great.

Welcome to the Juan Clayton era.


I repeat,there is no option that replaces Jose's production.

How about Aurilia. His numbers seem better than Valentin's overall, and he is playing in a pitcher's park. His defense blows, but it can't be any worse than Jose's.

Unregistered
12-14-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I repeat,there is no option that replaces Jose's production. Agreed. Just pointing out that apparently KW is more than ready to replace Valentin if he needs to. Somehow, the thought of Willie Harris and Juan Uribe starting regularly seems to really excite KW. I wish I could share that optimism. :(:

Daver
12-14-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
How about Aurilia. His numbers seem better than Valentin's overall, and he is playing in a pitcher's park. His defense blows, but it can't be any worse than Jose's.

Ummmm,

Jose has better range than Alex Rodriguez,and he turns a better DP than him,I have no problem with his defense.

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Ummmm,

Jose has better range than Alex Rodriguez,and he turns a better DP than him,I have no problem with his defense.


I have a feeling he'll be back to his customary 35 errors next year. He does have good range, but makes some terrible throws.

joecrede
12-14-2003, 07:53 PM
Unless they get a great deal, if the Sox have designs on winning the division next year, Valentin has to be there SS.

soxtalker
12-14-2003, 08:43 PM
If there are a lot of teams asking about Jose, KW is probably waiting for the best offer. It is also probably a bit more complex, as many of these deals could involve our other more-discussed players and the holes on our pitching staff.

cornball
12-14-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Ummmm,

Jose has better range than Alex Rodriguez,and he turns a better DP than him,I have no problem with his defense.

While that maybe true, even though I don't think it is, Jose struggles with the routine play.

A team worried about money, signing JV for 5MM a year is insane. Plus Valantin would have signed here for less if the option was not picked up.

SoxxoS
12-14-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Unless they get a great deal, if the Sox have designs on winning the division next year, Valentin has to be there SS.

Yeah, we have won so many with Jose there...

Bobby Thigpen
12-14-2003, 09:18 PM
Yeah, we have won so many with Jose there...

They've won as many as they ever did with Little Louis and one more than when they had Ozzie.

Jose is not the problem. I wouldn't mind seeing him traded for something productive in return, but as Daver said, there is absolutely nothing to replace him with. I would venture to say the Sox are shallower at SS than 2B.

Daver
12-14-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Plus Valantin would have signed here for less if the option was not picked up.

The business of baseball does not work that way,if his option was not picked up then he is considered non-tendered,and thus cannot sign with the Sox until May 1st of 2004.

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The business of baseball does not work that way,if his option was not picked up then he is considered non-tendered,and thus cannot sign with the Sox until May 1st of 2004.


They still would have had until Dec. 7th to negotiate with him. He was quoted as saying he would sign for less if they were bringing everyone back. Maybe they will trade him to Seattle for Garcia, and try and negotiate a deal with Garcia before Dec.20.

duke of dorwood
12-14-2003, 09:29 PM
They almost have to keep him to have ANY left handed power

soxfan26
12-14-2003, 09:31 PM
I'm all for dumping Valentin's salary. But only if the deal or one made shortly after includes a solid defensive replacement. We wont miss his offensive numbers provided we hold onto Frank, Maggs, and C Lee.

Daver
12-14-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
They still would have had until Dec. 7th to negotiate with him. He was quoted as saying he would sign for less if they were bringing everyone back. Maybe they will trade him to Seattle for Garcia, and try and negotiate a deal with Garcia before Dec.20.

No they wouldn't.A player that has a club option that is not excercised is considered a non tender,and subject to the non tender rules as prescribed by the CBA.If it was a player option that was not excercised then you would be correct.

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Daver
No they wouldn't.A player that has a club option that is not excercised is considered a non tender,and subject to the non tender rules as prescribed by the CBA.If it was a player option that was not excercised then you would be correct.

Then explain to me how the Yankees are negotiating with David Wells, after declining his option.

RichH55
12-14-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Yeah, we have won so many with Jose there...

There of course is a difference between correalation and causation, but I'm assuming that might be a bit over your head?

RichH55
12-14-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
I'm all for dumping Valentin's salary. But only if the deal or one made shortly after includes a solid defensive replacement. We wont miss his offensive numbers provided we hold onto Frank, Maggs, and C Lee.

Im all for using Valentin somewhat differently...no mas to the switching hitting...you face a Rightie how often? His splits are just ridiculous, with Uribe around(not that he hits that much) we can probably play some kind of platoon situation, and with Uribe being able to play 2B...Uribe getting hot won't mean benching Manos against Pitchers he kills

Daver
12-14-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Then explain to me how the Yankees are negotiating with David Wells, after declining his option.

They are negotiating a minor league contract with incentives.

They gambled that no one would sign him and won,the Sox did not take that chance with Valentin.

You do know how the business of baseball works right?

cornball
12-14-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
They still would have had until Dec. 7th to negotiate with him. He was quoted as saying he would sign for less if they were bringing everyone back. Maybe they will trade him to Seattle for Garcia, and try and negotiate a deal with Garcia before Dec.20.


It is true Valantin said he would come back for less many times after the season. Maybe he doesn't know the rules himself. What does that say about the rules.

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Daver
They are negotiating a minor league contract with incentives.

They gambled that no one would sign him and won,the Sox did not take that chance with Valentin.

You do know how the business of baseball works right?

Yes I do, and you are wrong. They had to offer him arbitration by Dec. 7 which they did. For them to do that, he probably had to guarantee he wouldn't accept it. I'm not sure of the date players must accept or decline, but it gives them more time to negotiate..Not exercising an option makes you a free agent, and you are held to those rules and dates. Clemens was on ESPN talking about how the Yankees were giving Wells $6.5 million and blowing off Petite.

Huisj
12-14-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
and one more than when they had Ozzie.



what happened to 1993? and only the strike kept them from a division title in 1994.

Daver
12-14-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Yes I do, and you are wrong. They had to offer him arbitration by Dec. 7 which they did. For them to do that, he probably had to guarantee he wouldn't accept it. I'm not sure of the date players must accept or decline, but it gives them more time to negotiate..Not exercising an option makes you a free agent, and you are held to those rules and dates. Clemens was on ESPN talking about how the Yankees were giving Wells $6.5 million and blowing off Petite.

I suggest you read the CBA.

If you are relying on ESPN for your info you are already a step behind the process.

A player who has his option declined is considered a non tender,I will let you do your own research on what the rules on non tenders are.

cornball
12-14-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I suggest you read the CBA.

If you are relying on ESPN for your info you are already a step behind the process.

A player who has his option declined is considered a non tender,I will let you do your own research on what the rules on non tenders are.

Trust him DickAllen15 he is a lawyer!!! At least the best one on staff here at WSI, regarding baseball matters.

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I suggest you read the CBA.

If you are relying on ESPN for your info you are already a step behind the process.

A player who has his option declined is considered a non tender,I will let you do your own research on what the rules on non tenders are.

I'd love to. Please read the arbitration list. You can do a search on mlb.com. Search for Wells arbitration. . How could you offer arbitration to someone you couldn't even negotiate with. I think you need to do a little better research.

Daver
12-14-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I think you need to do a little better research.

No you do.

The Yankees paid the buyout on Wells' contract,making him a FA.

Again,read the CBA.

If you want to argue how the system works you should understand how the system works first.

wassagstdu
12-14-2003, 10:21 PM
Seems that the Mets have an extra shortstop, a pretty darn good one, and pretty easy on the payroll. What would it take to get him?

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Daver
No you do.

The Yankees paid the buyout on Wells' contract,making him a FA.

Again,read the CBA.

If you want to argue how the system works you should understand how the system works first.

The White Sox, if they didn't exercise Valentin's option, would have paid a buyout as well, making him a FA. Same thing. Most options have buyouts. The minor league contract wasn't a way to get around the May 1st date, it was to protect the Yankees in the event Wells back doesn't come around. You can read all about it on the Yankees website. Search David Wells, and look at the article from 12/03.

Bobby Thigpen
12-14-2003, 10:24 PM
what happened to 1993? and only the strike kept them from a division title in 1994.

Brain fart. Forgot 93. While it remains one of the great questions of all time (what would've happened in 94?) I can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Sox would've won. Either way, my point is that the Sox have been just as succesfull with Jose as they have been some of the great Sox SS of all time.

Daver
12-14-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The White Sox, if they didn't exercise Valentin's option, would have paid a buyout as well, making him a FA. Same thing. Most options have buyouts. The minor league contract wasn't a way to get around the May 1st date, it was to protect the Yankees in the event Wells back doesn't come around. You can read all about it on the Yankees website. Search David Wells, and look at the article from 12/03.

This is not about Wells,and I have already covered why the Sox picked up his option as opposed to paying his buyout,so what exactly is your point?

dickallen15
12-14-2003, 10:36 PM
My point was, and you kept telling me I was wrong, was that if the White Sox declined Valentin's option, they still could have negotiated a contract with him. They would have had until Dec.7 to work something out without offering arbitration. He wouldn't have been a non tender, he would have been a free agent. He mentioned at the end of the season he would take less, if the team met certain criteria. Obviously, when it came time to exercise the option or pay the buyout, the team wasn't in the position to insure that criteria would be met, or Valentin would stick with those feelings, at least by the Dec. 7 deadline. Wells was used as an example of someone whose option was declined, but he still was negotiating with his old team. Wells was offered arbitration on the condition he decline it to buy a little time.

Lip Man 1
12-14-2003, 11:36 PM
Folks:

Just for the record when the season was halted on August 11, 1994 the Sox as good as they were, had only a ONE game lead on Cleveland and trailied the Yankees by three games for the best record in the league (They had the 3rd best overall)

I think the Sox had a great shot because of their tremendous starting pitching (McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere & Sanderson) to win it all in 94 but a championship was not guaranteed, especially if they slipped, took the wild card and had to face the yankees in the first round. Under this example Cleveland would have hosted Texas in the first round.

Like Jack McDowell told us in his WSI interview that's why it was so important for the Sox to be in first place at the halt of play, if the teams had come back no one knew what playoff system would have been implimented.

Lip

LASOXFAN
12-14-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Great.

Welcome to the Juan Clayton era.


I repeat,there is no option that replaces Jose's production.

I don't know about that -- I'm sure there are plenty of switch hitters who can't hit a breaking ball from the right side to save their lives. We just need one who can make blunders on the bases and at SS, then we'll have our "production" void filled quite nicely.

RichH55
12-15-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I don't know about that -- I'm sure there are plenty of switch hitters who can't hit a breaking ball from the right side to save their lives. We just need one who can make blunders on the bases and at SS, then we'll have our "production" void filled quite nicely.


Of course then there is that fact that hitting Righties he is among the top 5 SS in the game, He has great range, turns a good double play

Who do you want playing SS....Does a Middle Infield of Uribe and Harris make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Fighting it out to see if we can somehow get Geoff Blum, or Royce Clayton, or maybe hope Julio Lugo comes to us, Ozzie as player-manager?

Man Soo Lee
12-15-2003, 04:13 AM
For what it's worth, from the Mariners' official site:

But one of the hot rumors at the meetings has the Mariners sending right-handed pitcher Freddy Garcia and Guillen to the White Sox for shortstop Jose Valentin and another player.

dougs78
12-15-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
For what it's worth, from the Mariners' official site:

Hmmm...Does anyone know what Guillen get paid? That "other player" we give with Valentin would almost have to be Koch or Konerko otherwise we'd be adding significant salary in that deal.

Notice I did not say Lee (or god forbid Ordonez) because that, after all, would be a ripoff.

MisterB
12-15-2003, 11:36 AM
I have no idea why KW seems so hung up on getting Garcia. This guy's last 2 seasons have been pretty mediocre, he apparently has a drinking problem, is due arbitration and will make a minimum of $5.5M, and will probably be non-tendered if he can't be dealt. Why give up ML talent for a guy who we could get for just cash in a week?

lowesox
12-15-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Does a Middle Infield of Uribe and Harris make you feel all warm and fuzzy?

That wouldn't happen. Personally, I doubt Willie Harris at 2b will even happen. KW loves to play veterans. Once he finishes trimming payroll - and if he can get rid of Valentin - then he'll make a play at a respectable (but not star-quality) SS and 2b.

Which, I think is the right thing to do.

fuzzy_patters
12-15-2003, 12:54 PM
A few points:

A) Jose Valentin is ripped and has an edgy personality.

B) A recent Sports Illustrated article quoted a doctor saying that baseball players have recently had a lot of illiopsys strains, which is very rare. He linked these strains to possible steroid use. The illiopsys is a muscle in your abdomen.

C) Jose Valentin fought abdomen strains throughout 2000-2001.

D) Major League Baseball is going to start punishing players who test positive for steroids next year. The second positive test can lead to suspensions.

E) The White Sox are shopping Jose Valentin.

That is all I am going to say. I'll let you guys connect the dots.

voodoochile
12-15-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
A few points:

A) Jose Valentin is ripped and has an edgy personality.

B) A recent Sports Illustrated article quoted a doctor saying that baseball players have recently had a lot of illiopsys strains, which is very rare. He linked these strains to possible steroid use. The illiopsys is a muscle in your abdomen.

C) Jose Valentin fought abdomen strains throughout 2000-2001.

D) Major League Baseball is going to start punishing players who test positive for steroids next year. The second positive test can lead to suspensions.

E) The White Sox are shopping Jose Valentin.

That is all I am going to say. I'll let you guys connect the dots.

Well, you are not the first to make this accusation (inneuendo) on these boards. I for one wouldn't be surprised. I imagine any trade of Jose includes a SS/2B in return.

I wonder if he was one of the team leaders in the "sit out the testing" thing the Sox tried to pull. I mean if you are going to fail, better everyone does than you stick out like a sore thumb. Curving the scores as it were...