PDA

View Full Version : Hey Lip


dickallen15
12-13-2003, 09:38 AM
Did you see even George Steinbrenner defers money in his contract offers. That's why Sheffield wouldn't sign the dotted line.

jabrch
12-13-2003, 10:31 AM
Contrary to public opinion, there is nothing wrong with Deferred money. The ownership agreement does not allow teams to borrow over a certain ratio for operating the team. Therefore, instead of taking on debt, they work the deals out to deferr money. The player, upon signing the guaranteed deferred contract, can take it to any investment bank and have it converted to cash at a very good rate. I think we talked about it before - 1year deferred, 1mm$ costs no more than 40,000. In today's financial markets, it would cost even less than that given interest rates.

This deferred money thing is crap. It's more an image thing (Reinsdorf is cheap - he deferrs money) than a reality thing. The reality is that we didn't lose Colon cuz of Deferred money. We lost Colon over the 4th year and the total financial deal. Even if our deal was in all cash, he wasn't gonna take it.

Look at Pettite's deal. He is deferring most of his money to year 3. (5.5mm in 2004, 7.5mm in 2005 and something like 17.5mm in 2006) He didn't seem to care much!

SoxxoS
12-13-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Did you see even George Steinbrenner defers money in his contract offers. That's why Sheffield wouldn't sign the dotted line.

It's different when you already have 1 billion in payroll.

RedPinStripes
12-13-2003, 12:19 PM
If a player turns downa contract because of deferred money, it only means he cant manage money. Say a player is getting 8 mill over 4 years and 3 mill is defered the 1st 3 years. Can someone explain why a person cant live off 1 million dollars a year for 3 years when that person knows he's getting 3 mill in a few years?

Really pisses me off when i hear about crap like this when ihave to work 10-12 hours a day year round for less then 80 g's a year.

RedPinStripes
12-13-2003, 12:20 PM
Did i mention that i wouldnt piss on Sheffield if he was on fire?

DirtySouthsider
12-13-2003, 12:27 PM
Did anybody see Sheffield with Daryl Strawberry at the Maryland/Florida basketball game on Wednesday? Daryl's son plays for MD. He's a freshman...good player, but everytime he went to the line the crowd got the DARYL chant going.

ESPN kept showing Daryl in the stands but never mentioned that it was Gary Sheffield sitting next to him.

RedPinStripes
12-13-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
Did anybody see Sheffield with Daryl Strawberry at the Maryland/Florida basketball game on Wednesday? Daryl's son plays for MD. He's a freshman...good player, but everytime he went to the line the crowd got the DARYL chant going.

ESPN kept showing Daryl in the stands but never mentioned that it was Gary Sheffield sitting next to him.

Is that the same son that just got busted for buying crack over trhe summer?

dickallen15
12-13-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Contrary to public opinion, there is nothing wrong with Deferred money. The ownership agreement does not allow teams to borrow over a certain ratio for operating the team. Therefore, instead of taking on debt, they work the deals out to deferr money. The player, upon signing the guaranteed deferred contract, can take it to any investment bank and have it converted to cash at a very good rate. I think we talked about it before - 1year deferred, 1mm$ costs no more than 40,000. In today's financial markets, it would cost even less than that given interest rates.

This deferred money thing is crap. It's more an image thing (Reinsdorf is cheap - he deferrs money) than a reality thing. The reality is that we didn't lose Colon cuz of Deferred money. We lost Colon over the 4th year and the total financial deal. Even if our deal was in all cash, he wasn't gonna take it.

Look at Pettite's deal. He is deferring most of his money to year 3. (5.5mm in 2004, 7.5mm in 2005 and something like 17.5mm in 2006) He didn't seem to care much!


I agree. Most of the star players have more money than they, their children, or their grandchildren will ever spend.

Lip Man 1
12-13-2003, 01:13 PM
Dick:

Did you ever notice that every time the Sox want to offer deferred money to a player they are told "no."

Hmmmmm... ever wonder why that is? (and why that seems to happen only to the Sox?)

It couldn't be because when the Yankees or Arizona offer deferred money the players know those clubs are going to take that saved money and go out and get more players could it? As opposed to the Sox say, sticking that saved money and putting it in a bank...

Also there is a big difference between offering deferred money with interest as opposed to without interest. It may be worth examining what the Yankees and Arizona's position on this is.

The bottom line Dick is that regardless of what the Sox try to do their reputation as being confrontational, vindictive and short sighted preceeds them. That's not the fans fault, that's not the media's fault and that's not the agent's fault is it?

It's a small world and the word has been out for years about the White Sox organization and ownership..

Speaking of Sheffield, The Sporting News radio reported this morning the yankees are now making Guerrero their #1 priority as opposed to Sheffield. The story quotes Vlad's agents as saying he wants seven years, 17-18 million per season.

Lip

dickallen15
12-13-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dick:

Did you ever notice that every time the Sox want to offer deferred money to a player they are told "no."

Hmmmmm... ever wonder why that is? (and why that seems to happen only to the Sox?)

It couldn't be because when the Yankees or Arizona offer deferred money the players know those clubs are going to take that saved money and go out and get more players could it? As opposed to the Sox say, sticking that saved money and putting it in a bank...

Also there is a big difference between offering deferred money with interest as opposed to without interest. It may be worth examining what the Yankees and Arizona's position on this is.

The bottom line Dick is that regardless of what the Sox try to do their reputation as being confrontational, vindictive and short sighted preceeds them. That's not the fans fault, that's not the media's fault and that's not the agent's fault is it?

It's a small world and the word has been out for years about the White Sox organization and ownership..

Speaking of Sheffield, The Sporting News radio reported this morning the yankees are now making Guerrero their #1 priority as opposed to Sheffield. The story quotes Vlad's agents as saying he wants seven years, 17-18 million per season.

Lip


Julio Cruz took the deferred money. He still may be on the payroll.

joecrede
12-13-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Did you see even George Steinbrenner defers money in his contract offers. That's why Sheffield wouldn't sign the dotted line.

Steinbrenner also upset Pettitte by making relievers and Sheffield more of a priority than re-signing him. Oh yeah, how about the nasty spat going on between Nomar, Nomar's agent, and Red Sox owner John Henry? I thought this type of behavior was exclusive to the Sox, what's going on here?

Lip Man 1
12-13-2003, 01:48 PM
Guys:

The bottom line though is that both the Yanks and Red Sox will be in the post season and win close to 100 games.

Will the White Sox?

I know you two are both professionals with I assume business backgrounds, but my basic question remains (which hasn't been answered) WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time and such a difficult relationship with players and agents as opposed to other teams and WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time succeding in putting togehter a championship caliber club.

I await you responces.

Lip

DSpivack
12-13-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I thought this type of behavior was exclusive to the Sox, what's going on here?

White and Red!

dickallen15
12-13-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Guys:

The bottom line though is that both the Yanks and Red Sox will be in the post season and win close to 100 games.

Will the White Sox?

I know you two are both professionals with I assume business backgrounds, but my basic question remains (which hasn't been answered) WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time and such a difficult relationship with players and agents as opposed to other teams and WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time succeding in putting togehter a championship caliber club.

I await you responces.

Lip

The Yankees and Red Sox both have significantly higher revenue streams than the White Sox. Certainly in the early 90's, the White Sox had a better chance of winning a championship than either of those teams. Economics has played a key role. Steinbrenners cable tv deal is far and away above anyone else's. Both the Yankees and Red Sox draw considerably higher than the White Sox, and ticket prices are double or even triple what they are at US Cellular. The Red Sox are like the Cubs in as much as they would have great attendance win or lose. If they Yankees have a crappy team, they wouldn't draw. The White Sox had the best record in the AL in 2000, and didn't draw 2 million. Both these teams have had difficult relationships with players and agents. Carlton Fisk, Dave Winfield, Reggie Jackson, Jim Rice, Carl Everett, and even Nomar Garciapparra come to mind quickly. The last time the Red Sox won the World Series was 1918, so they obviously have had almost as difficult time putting together a championship team as Chicago. The Yankees are the Yankees, the most recognizable name in sports. Steinbrenner is crazy, but he does want to win. They started winning again as soon as he started letting his baseball people make the decisions, and kept a lower profile. Now that his profile is growing again, it wouldn't surprise me if his team fell apart. There is a lot of age, and health concerns on that roster. The White Sox have had a lot of difficulty putting together a team that fans could reasonably expect to win it all, I will grant you that. Considering what kind of committment they get from their fans, I think they have put reasonably competitive teams on the field for decent amount of time. When the day comes when winning or renovations or fireworks or whatever consistently brings fans to the ballpark, like in the early 90's, a consistent championship- caliber team will be on the field.

ScottyTheSoxFan
12-13-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Did you see even George Steinbrenner defers money in his contract offers. That's why Sheffield wouldn't sign the dotted line.

well of coarse. the boss has to save some money so he can aquire 16 or 17 more players for the stretch run.

Lip Man 1
12-13-2003, 05:40 PM
Dick;

Thank you that was well thought out.

I was thinking about this earlier in the day (while watching Kentucky beat Michigan State)

The difference in thinking between you and I is a perfect microcosem to what has been going on for years between Jerry Reinsdorf and many Sox fans. Unfortunately it's a problem that I can't find an answer to.

In short both sides are at loggerheads against each other and both refuse to change their thinking.

In so many words, Uncle Jerry refuses to spend a lot of money (or even the median MLB payroll) until the fans come out and support him. (Although as I have stated in the past the Sox have never publicly explained what they consider 'good' support).

Many Sox fans refuse to come out to games because for right or wrong, they don't trust Uncle Jerry to spend that money on improving the team. They don't trust him.

Unless the two million or so fans change their minds or unless Uncle Jerry changes his, the Sox seemed doomed to an endless cycle of mediocrity and negative publicity.

To me it seems easier for one man to change his mind then two million but that's not going to happen. I give JR credit for sticking to his core beliefs.

I guess the only solution is to let time take its course and hope the next owner will be better.

Sigh, not very appealing is it?

Lip

RichH55
12-13-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Guys:

The bottom line though is that both the Yanks and Red Sox will be in the post season and win close to 100 games.

Will the White Sox?

I know you two are both professionals with I assume business backgrounds, but my basic question remains (which hasn't been answered) WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time and such a difficult relationship with players and agents as opposed to other teams and WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time succeding in putting togehter a championship caliber club.

I await you responces.

Lip


The bottom line is you are a hypocrite Lip...and thats why people call you out on it. Call a Spade a Spade...don't form one opinion and then work really really hard to make EVERYTHING fit into it no matter what

If you have a beef with JR, then is more than enough relevant stuff to go after, why make stuff up?

Thats all Im asking is a little open-mindedness

Do I want the Sox to win the World Series...of course, why else spend so much time here

But just because the Sox dont win it, does not mean EVERY SINGLE move they make is wrong

Of course, Im sure last year if we would have dealt Carlos Lee for Rick Helling and solved that 5th Spot in the rotation we would have won it all, right Lip?

I await your response

rmusacch
12-13-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
If a player turns downa contract because of deferred money, it only means he cant manage money. Say a player is getting 8 mill over 4 years and 3 mill is defered the 1st 3 years. Can someone explain why a person cant live off 1 million dollars a year for 3 years when that person knows he's getting 3 mill in a few years?

Really pisses me off when i hear about crap like this when ihave to work 10-12 hours a day year round for less then 80 g's a year.

It seems that most of the time that the deferred money is paid without interest. I think that if money is going to deferred in a contract, they should pay interest.

TornLabrum
12-13-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Julio Cruz took the deferred money. He still may be on the payroll.

Cruz's last year on the Sox payroll was something like 1993.

RedPinStripes
12-13-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
It seems that most of the time that the deferred money is paid without interest. I think that if money is going to deferred in a contract, they should pay interest.

There's inerest made on it, but i think that all goes to the owner and the owner is not obligated to give any of that to the player. That's why a certain somebody loves the idea.

:reinsy
"What are you looking at?"

jabrch
12-13-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Guys:

The bottom line though is that both the Yanks and Red Sox will be in the post season and win close to 100 games.

Will the White Sox?

I know you two are both professionals with I assume business backgrounds, but my basic question remains (which hasn't been answered) WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time and such a difficult relationship with players and agents as opposed to other teams and WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time succeding in putting togehter a championship caliber club.

I await you responces.

Lip

I wish I knew the answer Lip. I just don't think it is as simple as "deferred money". I think it has more to do with belief that the owner is committed to winning and that the deferred money thing is just a red herring.

joecrede
12-13-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Guys:

The bottom line though is that both the Yanks and Red Sox will be in the post season and win close to 100 games.

Will the White Sox?

I know you two are both professionals with I assume business backgrounds, but my basic question remains (which hasn't been answered) WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time and such a difficult relationship with players and agents as opposed to other teams and WHY do the Sox have such a difficult time succeding in putting togehter a championship caliber club.

I await you responces.

Lip

Lip, on the subject of relationships with agents specifically Scott Boras, I found the following opinion interesting:

The Scott Boras show will be canceled. Never again will the Lex Luthor of agents secure megadeals for the likes of Chan Ho Park. Even though he represents some of the biggest names on the market -- Ivan Rodriguez, Greg Maddux and Kevin Millwood -- Boras isn't going to fulfill his grandiose expectations the way he has in the past.

The climate is much different than when Boras crafted his A-Rod masterpiece three years ago. The luxury-tax threshold inhibits the spending of some clubs. The sputtering economy limits others. And the owners are controlling the market as never before, flooding it with players and in most cases dictating terms.

- Ken Rosenthal, 12/8/2003

It appears that the influence of Scott Boras might be waning, at least Rosenthal thinks it is.

If true, Boras will have to deal with the Chairman on the Chairman's terms now. I love it.

Link (http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=1931928)

Daver
12-13-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by joecrede




It appears that the influence of Scott Boras might be waning, at least Rosenthal thinks it is.

If true, Boras will have to deal with the Chairman on the Chairman's terms now. I love it.



The owners have finally decided to take advantage of the system that the players have used against them for years,arbitration.By not offering it to anyone that they know they can't afford to keep the owners are creating a buyers market,when in the past it was always a sellers market.Once the details are hammered out with the world wide draft and some other minor issues,the compensation picks for FA's will be gone,it is already written into the CBA,and they will not return,so GM's are preparing for the inevitable and taking their chances on an overloaded FA market.

The upshot of this is now pro level scouting will have to become a focus on every MLB club,teams will want to know they are getting what they pay for even with low priced FA's,the squeeze is going to affect the guys like Tony Graffinino et al in a big way.

CubKilla
12-13-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Did you see even George Steinbrenner defers money in his contract offers. That's why Sheffield wouldn't sign the dotted line.

If KC or Minnesota was to have deferred money for Sheffield, I'd buy your argument. But you're comparing JR to GS. NO COMPARISON!