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View Full Version : Maggs staying put!


ukigdog
12-10-2003, 10:46 PM
It looks as though the white sox will probably keep magglio. He isnt going nowhere from what was said in this article, unless they get immediate great talent in return. The most likely to go they said are PK or Lee to cut payroll, or Koch to the mets if the mets fall through with attempts at urbina. Good article, and glad to see that maggs most likely is staying put!

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-031210sox,1,3067820.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

lowesox
12-10-2003, 11:33 PM
You got excited by that article? I'm disgusted. Why keep maggs? Are we going to be good next year? No. We can't afford to bring anybody good and Williams is sitting there bragging about how great willie harris is. Willie ****ing harris!!!

If the sox don't trade ordonez, they will lose next year. Hell, they'll lose next year regardless. And after they do, MAggs is going to be gone like a flash. And we'll get NOBODY but a draft pick.

"People are overlooking the fact we're a pretty good team as it is." What an ****ing moron.

Dub25
12-10-2003, 11:48 PM
Teams are interested in Jose. :D: :gulp:

ukigdog
12-11-2003, 12:01 AM
1. lowesox, chill out there buddy, if you look at it we only lost gordon and colon from last years original team and i think that when its all said and done we will have someone that can go 15-14 for us to replace colon and a decent set up man to fill gordons void.

2. sullivan, alomar, everett were additions late in the season and as weak as our division is this year there is no reason we cant pull trades like that again this year.

3. CF?? - Rowand i think will do just fine and surpise a few. He started off so bad last year because he wasnt fully over his injury yet. When he came back, he played great against the cubs and such, but we then traded for everett and didnt give him his shot again. He looks good so far whereever he is playing now, just wait and see.

4. 2B - Willie harris i think KW is right about him. If used the right way and given the confidence of a starting position next year i think he can have a similar role as pierre in florida.

5. What were the poor spots of last year, dissapointments? Easy - Billy Koch and PK. First if PK stays, he will rebound. He is one of the most fundamentally sound hitters in baseball and just wait and see, he should rebound next year. Koch will also rebound. Look what happened with Foulke. Two years ago he was awesome for us and was a tad overworked, the next year he seemed to have dead arm and didnt pan as well. We traded him and look what happened to him in Oakland. Same situation with Koch. He was well overworked in Oakland before he was traded to us, so last year he had a dead arm, not as fast of stuff. But with all the rest not playing much last year, hell be back this year.

6. So where does that leave us??

Linup:
1. Willie Harris - (Juan Pierre like??)
2. Carlos Lee - played great last year in the two hole
3. Frank Thomas - 40+HR again??
4. Magglio Ordonez - Best player on team
5. Paul Konerko - Rebounds this year
6. Jose Valentin - Strides of power
7. Joe Crede - Could have big year
8. Aaron Rowand - has potential, great defensively
9. Miguel Olivo - year under belt, should improve, speedy!!


Pithing:

1. Mark Buehrle - Will rebound to be no. 1 starter (18-20W)
2. Esteban Loaiza - Will regress a bit (15-18W)
3. Free Agent - (13-15 W)
4. John Garland - (10-15W)
5. Scott Showenweis - (8-10W)

Bullpen:

1. Kelly Wusnch - lefty specialist
2. Danny Wright - can be dominant from pen
3. Prospect from minors
4. FA to replace Gordon
5. Marte - either setup man or closer
6. Koch - either setup man or closer

In conclusion, i understand the sox will probably lose a guy from the batting lineup i put up there, but in return we will get our FA pitcher, FA setup man, and FA bench player. In the end we will stay in our payroll budget, and field a team similar to that of last years start of the season, but a little worse in hitting, a little worse in pitching, and about the same in releif.

With a team almost as strong as last years team at the start of the season, and the fact that minnesota seems to be degressing, i think that we can hang in until the trade deadline time again, then make a few trades like last year and win the division. Especially with ozzie guillen as our manager. He will make the difference, just look at pena and the royals.

Go white sox, and i think that people should stop being down on the team so much and look at our nucleus. We are in the weakest division in baseball and a postseason appearance next year is not as far fetched as some make it seem.

Go White Sox!!

delben91
12-11-2003, 12:09 AM
All right UK, I agree with a lot of what you said, if most of the nucleus comes back, while Colon hurts, we have a pretty "decent" team. Assuming everyone plays to expectations or a little beyond. And that's a big assumption.

A couple things I don't agree with you on however.

Originally posted by ukigdog

3. CF?? - Rowand i think will do just fine and surpise a few. He started off so bad last year because he wasnt fully over his injury yet. When he came back, he played great against the cubs and such, but we then traded for everett and didnt give him his shot again. He looks good so far whereever he is playing now, just wait and see.


I'll let Randar handle this one.

Originally posted by ukigdog

4. 2B - Willie harris i think KW is right about him. If used the right way and given the confidence of a starting position next year i think he can have a similar role as pierre in florida.



Willie Harris has speed, and from what I've seen, he's no slouch on defense, though probably not gold glove caliber either. But he hasn't been able to keep his average above .200 in the majors for any extended period of time....ever. Until he proves he can, which I grant you that he can't do unless he plays regularly, I'm going to hold off on the Juan Pierre comparisons.

nodiggity59
12-11-2003, 12:12 AM
Ukidog:

You took the words out of my mouth.

I think thats the POST OF THE OFFSEASON so far.

Not everyone is so blindly jealous of other teams that they can't see positives with the Sox.

ukigdog
12-11-2003, 12:12 AM
I totally agree with you on the pierre part, he hasnt proven anything, but when i look at his speed and his potential i tend to get excited we have a pierre on our hands. I am just trying to show people that the White Sox do have hope and not to be so down on them. I think that htey have a substantial chance at winning the division next year.

ukigdog
12-11-2003, 12:16 AM
nodiggity59, thank you. Look at Florida of last year. At the beginning of last season last year we had more talent then they did and same with KC. On paper we had great talent, we were just managed poorly . Now Ozzie is in, and if he can have an effect like pena did on kc, the sox can be golden next year

nodiggity59
12-11-2003, 12:20 AM
Good PR move by Kenny. I know he doesn't like to reveal much but I think he had to talk cause the White Sox are in the middle of a PR disaster.

Any news is good news at this point.

jeremyb1
12-11-2003, 11:58 AM
KW makes a good point in that article. We had a good team prior to last season. The addition of Colon and Loaiza who combined for oustanding numbers in the rotation only improved our record by five games. Everett, Alomar, and Sullivan were all midseason acquisitions. The only key loses from last season when we won 86 games are Colon and Gordon. That doesn't sound too good but look at it as replacing Ritchie, Durham, and Clayton with Crede, Loiza, and Harris. Although Durham was certainly a substantial loss if Loaiza comes at all close to repeating last season we still have a better team than we did in '02. That should put our win total in the mid 80s. When you consider the fact that players underachieved that season also, a few good moves by Kenny or a much better effort from the team that we've seen in the past certainly puts this club in contention in a weak division.

lowesox
12-11-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by ukigdog
1. lowesox, chill out there buddy, if you look at it we only lost gordon and colon from last years original team and i think that when its all said and done we will have someone that can go 15-14 for us to replace colon and a decent set up man to fill gordons void.

2. sullivan, alomar, everett were additions late in the season and as weak as our division is this year there is no reason we cant pull trades like that again this year.

3. CF?? - Rowand i think will do just fine and surpise a few. He started off so bad last year because he wasnt fully over his injury yet. When he came back, he played great against the cubs and such, but we then traded for everett and didnt give him his shot again. He looks good so far whereever he is playing now, just wait and see.

4. 2B - Willie harris i think KW is right about him. If used the right way and given the confidence of a starting position next year i think he can have a similar role as pierre in florida.

5. What were the poor spots of last year, dissapointments? Easy - Billy Koch and PK. First if PK stays, he will rebound. He is one of the most fundamentally sound hitters in baseball and just wait and see, he should rebound next year. Koch will also rebound. Look what happened with Foulke. Two years ago he was awesome for us and was a tad overworked, the next year he seemed to have dead arm and didnt pan as well. We traded him and look what happened to him in Oakland. Same situation with Koch. He was well overworked in Oakland before he was traded to us, so last year he had a dead arm, not as fast of stuff. But with all the rest not playing much last year, hell be back this year.

6. So where does that leave us??

Linup:
1. Willie Harris - (Juan Pierre like??)
2. Carlos Lee - played great last year in the two hole
3. Frank Thomas - 40+HR again??
4. Magglio Ordonez - Best player on team
5. Paul Konerko - Rebounds this year
6. Jose Valentin - Strides of power
7. Joe Crede - Could have big year
8. Aaron Rowand - has potential, great defensively
9. Miguel Olivo - year under belt, should improve, speedy!!


Pithing:

1. Mark Buehrle - Will rebound to be no. 1 starter (18-20W)
2. Esteban Loaiza - Will regress a bit (15-18W)
3. Free Agent - (13-15 W)
4. John Garland - (10-15W)
5. Scott Showenweis - (8-10W)

Bullpen:

1. Kelly Wusnch - lefty specialist
2. Danny Wright - can be dominant from pen
3. Prospect from minors
4. FA to replace Gordon
5. Marte - either setup man or closer
6. Koch - either setup man or closer

In conclusion, i understand the sox will probably lose a guy from the batting lineup i put up there, but in return we will get our FA pitcher, FA setup man, and FA bench player. In the end we will stay in our payroll budget, and field a team similar to that of last years start of the season, but a little worse in hitting, a little worse in pitching, and about the same in releif.

With a team almost as strong as last years team at the start of the season, and the fact that minnesota seems to be degressing, i think that we can hang in until the trade deadline time again, then make a few trades like last year and win the division. Especially with ozzie guillen as our manager. He will make the difference, just look at pena and the royals.



There's so much you're forgetting. You're forgetting that as Delben pointed out Willie Harris is awful. What has he done to prove himself to you? I'd like to think that he could be the answer at second but it's clear as day that he isn't.

I agree with you that players like Koch and Konerko will probably rebound from last year after all career numbers rarely lie. But do you really expect Loaiza to be as good next year? You shouldn't, look at his career numbers.

You're forgetting that in order to make the midseason trades we did we had to mortgage a substantial part of our future. This team is at a crossroads, that's clear because we're considering trading away our two best players (frank and maggs) and we're getting older. We can't continue trading away young stars unless we're building on a team that's already good. The one you listed isn't.

You're forgetting that Colon and Gordon were our closer and our ace. Two very big pieces of the puzzle - if we had acquired (or looked like we were going to be bringin in) a closer and an ace, I wouldn't be bitching.

You're forgetting that there are very few 13-15 W pitchers left on the FA market. The only guys left are Ponson and Maddux. Both would be excellent candidates but Kenny has said they're both out of our price range.

You're forgetting that Kansas City continues to get better. And they were a good team last year. Put there team next to ours and you'll see that they are better on paper - and they have a coach who gets more out of his players.

And while I wish it were true, I doubt that starting rotation will come anywhere close to the win totals you're expecting. I appreciate your positivity - usually, I'm that guy too. But this team is buried and if they don't make a major chance (like trading Maggs) they're going to dig themselves even deeper.

Iwritecode
12-11-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by ukigdog
if you look at it we only lost gordon and colon from last years original team

Not to nitpick but Tony G. and Daubach are also gone.

and i think that when its all said and done we will have someone that can go 15-14 for us to replace colon and a decent set up man to fill gordons void.
[/B]

Which one (of Wright, Rauch, Schoenwiess) do you think will win 15 games and throw over 200 innings next year? They've already said they won't pick up any big name free agent pitchers this off-season.

Right now we can only hope that everyone play at least up to their expectations and a bunch play beyond theirs...

jeremyb1
12-11-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
There's so much you're forgetting. You're forgetting that as Delben pointed out Willie Harris is awful. What has he done to prove himself to you? I'd like to think that he could be the answer at second but it's clear as day that he isn't.

What has he done to prove to you its clear as day he isn't ready to perform? He's received very sporadic play throughout his time in the big leagues and he still hasn't racked up a ton of at bats so I'd argue its way to soon to reach any conclusions. He needs to be given consistent at bats over a significant period of time to make any judgement.

As far as Harris' positives, I think its clear he has flashed ability in his time at the major league level. He looked good in a handful of at bats at the end of last season. More importantly, I see no reason to completely disregard his stellar minor league numbers. Harris has shown an impressive ability to walk at certain times in the minors (89 BB's in A ball in '00 and 17 BB's in 117 PA's in Charlotte last season). He hasn't hit lower than .283 in the minors since '00. I'm not entirely convinced he's the answer but I'm certainly not convinced he's proven himself to be worthless at this point.

voodoochile
12-11-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
KW makes a good point in that article. We had a good team prior to last season. The addition of Colon and Loaiza who combined for oustanding numbers in the rotation only improved our record by five games. Everett, Alomar, and Sullivan were all midseason acquisitions. The only key loses from last season when we won 86 games are Colon and Gordon. That doesn't sound too good but look at it as replacing Ritchie, Durham, and Clayton with Crede, Loiza, and Harris. Although Durham was certainly a substantial loss if Loaiza comes at all close to repeating last season we still have a better team than we did in '02. That should put our win total in the mid 80s. When you consider the fact that players underachieved that season also, a few good moves by Kenny or a much better effort from the team that we've seen in the past certainly puts this club in contention in a weak division.

Yeah, nice spin, Kenny. Maybe he forgets how completely confused and downright bad this team was before the acquisition of Everett and Alomar. It was only after those two guys came on board that the team started to play like a playoff team. Like it or not, this team is going to be substantially worse and no it won't be JUST the loss of Colon and Gordon.

In essence barring a major return to form the Sox have also lost Konerko and are reducing payroll to fit the current team which means few if any major changes.

I hope he is right, but me thinks KW is whistling past the graveyard...

anewman35
12-11-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, nice spin, Kenny. Maybe he forgets how completely confused and downright bad this team was before the acquisition of Everett and Alomar.

Yes, but most people here seemed content at the time to blame it (as well as EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD) on Jerry Manuel. So who knows, maybe a different manager will help?

oheeoh...magglio
12-11-2003, 12:40 PM
One thing we all need to remember about next season is, as bad as our offseason has been, Minnesota's hasn't been too hot either. Sure they resigned stewart, but they lost a key starter and their setup man and closer, which is really going to hurt their staff. Not to mention, i'm not exactly scared of kansas city either. This division is not going to be very good this year at all IMO, and if the sox have at least a "decent" team, which i think they will, they should be at least pretty competitive in the division race IMO.

Mammoo
12-11-2003, 12:44 PM
There are no guarantees, where the Winter Meetings are concerned. If somebody makes KW an offer for a good pitcher, he'd be a fool not to take it.