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santo=dorf
12-10-2003, 06:05 PM
There were talks of a three way deal sending Frank to the Dodgers, Weaver to the Sox, and Brown to the Yanks. Opinions?

munchman33
12-10-2003, 06:05 PM
Peter Gammons just mentioned on sportscenter a possible deal where Frank goes to the Dodgers, Kevin Brown goes to the Yankees, and Jeff Weaver comes here.

mandmandm
12-10-2003, 06:05 PM
Yuck

dickallen15
12-10-2003, 06:06 PM
I think Weaver makes more than Frank. Frank may have to go, I don't think he and the fool managing the team can co-exist.

RedPinStripes
12-10-2003, 06:07 PM
:chunks

Jjav829
12-10-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
Peter Gammons just mentioned on sportscenter a possible deal where Frank goes to the Dodgers, Kevin Brown goes to the Yankees, and Jeff Weaver comes here.

I was just gonna post this. He did say that it was speculation last week about a deal that could go down. He did say other players would be involved. One of these players better be named Alfonso Soriano etc because Frank for Weaver would be horrible. Wow. I hope thats just Gammons being Gammons.

Hondo
12-10-2003, 06:07 PM
Yeah that threw me for a loop. I believe Thomas isn't the player he once was but that makes him....oh about a 1000 times better than weaver. And Weaver has a big contract!!!

munchman33
12-10-2003, 06:08 PM
If it were Gammons being Gammons it would sound more like"

Blah blah blah Boston. Blah Blah Blah Red Sox. Blah Blah Blah Pedro.

And such.

nodiggity59
12-10-2003, 06:08 PM
Well, good to know we're part of talks at least but yeah... I think dumping Frank is the worst way to relieve our "too many slugging righties" problem. Plus, Weaver is a joke.

Im still holding out that the Sox can move Konerko. Maybe the Dodgers will be forced to if we hold out long enough.

dickallen15
12-10-2003, 06:09 PM
This is the same Peter Gammons who said the Red Sox couldn't take on payroll this offseason. They trade for Schilling, came close to signing Foulke, and look like they might get ARod. Take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Jjav829
12-10-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Yeah that threw me for a loop. I believe Thomas isn't the player he once was but that makes him....oh about a 1000 times better than weaver. And Weaver has a big contract!!!

I hear you there. Im sitting hear barely listening to Gammons as he blabs on about the Yankees and next thing I know I heard White Sox and nearly snapped my neck turning to the TV. Then I didn't even hear Weaver's name clearly and only heard Frank and Brown so I had to try and figure out who the Sox would get and then I realized it was Weaver. Anyways, I really wouldn't put much stock into this.

munchman33
12-10-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Anyways, I really wouldn't put much stock into this.

That's what I thought last year when they were saying the White Sox were in on the Colon sweepstakes.

TheRockinMT
12-10-2003, 06:15 PM
Frank Thomas for Jeff Weaver would be the biggest rip off since the Babe went to the Yankees. I just can't imagine that KW woud be that gullible and trade a 40 hr 100 plus RBI man who has won the MVP twice and in the process get a bonafide head case in Weaver.

Gumshoe
12-10-2003, 06:21 PM
A majority of the time (or always) Gammons is wrong, but it's mostly because he's a reporter and he reports what the guys ARE TALKING ABOUT. He never says that this deal will go down. Now, when he says stuff is going to happen, he is mostly wrong, but he doesn't do that that much in comparison to just reporting "potentials."

As for this trade, I would like to see it happen. You guys are all about Frank's production, but I think the future of this organization clearly sends a signal that Frank does not play a valuable part in it (2 years down the line, he'll be extinct, more or less). Let's try to win without him! Maybe we'll get the TEAM to play better (reminiscent of the Ewing theory). The whole thing is, when he wants to , Frank Thomas can be one of the greatest hitters of all time. The other BS he brings in all facets though shows that it might be better for us to try to win without him. Let's give it a shot. If anyone thinks that he is near the same player from pre 97 days, I just think they are smoking crack. And what worth is he now anyway? If we aren't going to try to win the division now, just deal him anyway. I'd love it. I'm not a Frank hater --- but there comes a point when you have to realize that a guy's career is diminishing and that pursuing other things might be better. My thoughts,

gumshoe

RedPinStripes
12-10-2003, 06:22 PM
Weaver would hate it here. He hates teh Sox. It goes back to when he was drafted. And the 2000 brawl added some too i'm sure. And i dont think he'll like meeting up with Sox fans who remember 2000 in bars late at night. Weather he got the best of me or not, I'd love to give him a shot square in the nose.

Tekijawa
12-10-2003, 06:24 PM
Not to mention Weaver will make 6.25 million this year and Frank will make $6.

If this trade is made for some reason, I'll lead the march to comiskey with flames and Pitchforks!

poorme
12-10-2003, 06:24 PM
That would be a disaster of unbelievable proportions.

Dadawg_77
12-10-2003, 06:25 PM
If this trade happens once again Kenny play the part of small blue stuffed doll.

:kermit

nodiggity59
12-10-2003, 06:47 PM
If this does hppen I would not be willing to pay ANY of Weaver's salary. Period. If LA and NY wanna split the cost or if NY picks up 20mil and LA does the rest, then maybe we look at it. That would bring the cost of our high priced guys down to 47mil and allow us to pick up another SP and a bullpen arm.

Either way Im suspicous of Weaver and also worried because when Frank Thomas hits, the White Sox win and thats a fact (even though he's been very streaky after 2000).

hold2dibber
12-10-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
A majority of the time (or always) Gammons is wrong, but it's mostly because he's a reporter and he reports what the guys ARE TALKING ABOUT. He never says that this deal will go down. Now, when he says stuff is going to happen, he is mostly wrong, but he doesn't do that that much in comparison to just reporting "potentials."

As for this trade, I would like to see it happen. You guys are all about Frank's production, but I think the future of this organization clearly sends a signal that Frank does not play a valuable part in it (2 years down the line, he'll be extinct, more or less). Let's try to win without him! Maybe we'll get the TEAM to play better (reminiscent of the Ewing theory). The whole thing is, when he wants to , Frank Thomas can be one of the greatest hitters of all time. The other BS he brings in all facets though shows that it might be better for us to try to win without him. Let's give it a shot. If anyone thinks that he is near the same player from pre 97 days, I just think they are smoking crack. And what worth is he now anyway? If we aren't going to try to win the division now, just deal him anyway. I'd love it. I'm not a Frank hater --- but there comes a point when you have to realize that a guy's career is diminishing and that pursuing other things might be better. My thoughts,

gumshoe

Frank was the best DH in the AL last year. He led the Sox in HRs, was 2nd in RBIs and first in OBP. Weaver had an ERA of over 5.00. And this makes sense to you? C'mon - you can probably make an argument for trading Frank (as he comes pretty cheap and is a serious offensive weapon, he probably has decent trade value), but if you're going to make that argument, you at least have to get quality/value in return, not a huge (and expensive) question mark like Weaver.

joecrede
12-10-2003, 06:57 PM
I thought the deal was Thomas for Weaver AND Soriano? I still wouldn't do it. If it was Mota AND Soriano, I'd think about it.

StepsInSC
12-10-2003, 07:41 PM
I hope Frank will wave any and all trades.

jabrch
12-10-2003, 08:04 PM
I don't see any circumstance where we trade Frank for Weaver. I don't see how we do that. We don't save money. We don't get better. We don't please the fans. We don't build for the future.

I don't get it.

That must be misheard or mistated. Or Gammons is a dope (or all of the above). Now if it is Weaver and Soriano for Frank and Konerko or Koch, we have something to talk about. I do that in a heartbeat. Soriano replaces a good bit of Frank's production at a discounted price. We unload a lot of salary in PK or Koch. We are able to keep Maggs and Lee and probably compete in the bidding for a Ponson type guy.

I just can't see any circumstance where we trade Frank for Weaver straight up.

Kenny wouldn't do it.
The Chairman wouldn't do it.
Ozzie wouldn't do it.

jordan23ventura
12-10-2003, 08:16 PM
If I were Kenny I would have bitchslapped whoever came up with such a ridiculous idea. He is worth much more than he is making and, unless Buerhle regains old form and Loaiza repeats, he will be the best value on the team.

lowesox
12-10-2003, 08:16 PM
I think this trade is BS. Even this organization is smart enough to know that losing Frank would be devestating to how the fans perceive this team - maybe even moreso than trading Maggs.

Not to mention Weaver is crap.

Another team would have to overpay for Frank to make a deal viable, and I doubt any will.

Weaver? That's funny!

Brian26
12-10-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Weaver would hate it here. He hates teh Sox. It goes back to when he was drafted. And the 2000 brawl added some too i'm sure. And i dont think he'll like meeting up with Sox fans who remember 2000 in bars late at night. Weather he got the best of me or not, I'd love to give him a shot square in the nose.

Preach on, Stripes. Same goes for Fick or that douchebag Juan Samuel.

bc2k
12-10-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I hope Frank will wave any and all trades.

Me too. I'm hoping Frank will wave to us fans after waiving his 5/10 rights.

Seriously, I can't believe that Frank for Weaver would even be considered.

Bobby Thigpen
12-10-2003, 09:05 PM
As much as I would like to see Frank be dealt for a player, this suggestion is assinine. Why would you trade a guy who is pretty darn good for an idiot who was good for about one year?

Makes no sense to me. But that is exactly why I could see the Sox doing it. :)

Dub25
12-10-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
A majority of the time (or always) Gammons is wrong, but it's mostly because he's a reporter and he reports what the guys ARE TALKING ABOUT. He never says that this deal will go down. Now, when he says stuff is going to happen, he is mostly wrong, but he doesn't do that that much in comparison to just reporting "potentials."

As for this trade, I would like to see it happen. You guys are all about Frank's production, but I think the future of this organization clearly sends a signal that Frank does not play a valuable part in it (2 years down the line, he'll be extinct, more or less). Let's try to win without him! Maybe we'll get the TEAM to play better (reminiscent of the Ewing theory). The whole thing is, when he wants to , Frank Thomas can be one of the greatest hitters of all time. The other BS he brings in all facets though shows that it might be better for us to try to win without him. Let's give it a shot. If anyone thinks that he is near the same player from pre 97 days, I just think they are smoking crack. And what worth is he now anyway? If we aren't going to try to win the division now, just deal him anyway. I'd love it. I'm not a Frank hater --- but there comes a point when you have to realize that a guy's career is diminishing and that pursuing other things might be better. My thoughts,

gumshoe

I've taken my shots at Frank but for Jeff freakin Weaver no way

Tragg
12-10-2003, 11:41 PM
What is this love affair with a career mediocrity named Jeff Weaver?
Goodness, gracious
Frank for a fifth starter?

DSpivack
12-10-2003, 11:48 PM
They Sox are dumb, but this would be a whole new level
of incredibly monumental stupidity.

We're talking Matt Karchner- Jon Garland dumb....
No, much dumber than that.

We're talking nearly Babe Ruth-bankroll a musical dumb.

Lip Man 1
12-11-2003, 02:07 AM
Remember the context of this deal was IF the Yankees could not re-sign Pettitt.

The late ESPN Sportscenter reported that Pettitt has told the Yanks he's giving them one final chance to make a deal with him. if not he goes to Houston no later then Friday.

Gammons was saying that if Andy does go, this deal could be revisited. Also I did not hear him say anything about "other players" involved at least in this particular case. He didn't even hint at that.

We'll see. I think it would be a bad deal for the Sox but remember Williams has wanted Frank gone for two years now.

Lip

compy75
12-11-2003, 02:35 AM
I wonder if the Dodgers would consider not even involving the Yankees. If they ate a little bit of Brown's salary, would the Sox consider Frank for Brown?? It's a sure gamble but does fill out our staff quite nicely in the wake of the Colon. In theory, good pitching can makeup for a lack of offense punch and the loss would be easier to fill as pure "DH" hitters seem to come reasonably cheap.

gosox41
12-11-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by santo=dorf
There were talks of a three way deal sending Frank to the Dodgers, Weaver to the Sox, and Brown to the Yanks. Opinions?

Stupid enough for the Sox to do. Tradea HOFer for a struggling pitcher (who will probably get better once he's out of NY, though not by much) and still take on more salary in the process.

Typical KW. Guess which of the 3 teams is getting screwed in the above rumor?

Bob

hold2dibber
12-11-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by compy75
I wonder if the Dodgers would consider not even involving the Yankees. If they ate a little bit of Brown's salary, would the Sox consider Frank for Brown?? It's a sure gamble but does fill out our staff quite nicely in the wake of the Colon. In theory, good pitching can makeup for a lack of offense punch and the loss would be easier to fill as pure "DH" hitters seem to come reasonably cheap.

The problem is that Brown makes way more than Frank right now - $15 million as compared to $6 million. Brown has two years left for $30 million ($15 million per year). Frank has 3 years left at a minimum of $17.5 million and a maximum of $31 million. Thus, the Dodgers would have to eat a lot more than "a bit" of Brown's salary.

hold2dibber
12-11-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Typical KW. Guess which of the 3 teams is getting screwed in the above rumor?

More like typical Gammons than typical KW. The only 3 team trade I remember KW making was a damn good one for the Sox (the Colon trade).

BeerHandle
12-11-2003, 09:26 AM
FACTS
1. Gamons is wrong 77.7% of the time
2. Is a major threat when he plays the field
3. Weaver is not that good of a pitcher. Maybe a 5th starter that is getting paid like a #2

QUESTIONS
1. Doesn't Frank have a no trade clause?
2. Would the Sox take on Browns salary? (JR does like pitchers with short term contracts...less then three years)

STATEMENT
Frank for Weaver and Soriano still is not a good trade!!

voodoochile
12-11-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
FACTS
1. Gamons is wrong 77.7% of the time
2. Is a major threat when he plays the field
3. Weaver is not that good of a pitcher. Maybe a 5th starter that is getting paid like a #2

QUESTIONS
1. Doesn't Frank have a no trade clause?
2. Would the Sox take on Browns salary? (JR does like pitchers with short term contracts...less then three years)

STATEMENT
Frank for Weaver and Soriano still is not a good trade!!

Frank is a 10/5 player who can veto any trade.

Does a trade change his contract status at all? Under the old one, a trade would have removed the DSC from it.

FanOf14
12-11-2003, 09:59 AM
I may not be a big FT fan, but if the Sox did this trade, it would go down as the all-time worst trade made by the Sox. Weaver is crap and Thomas is one of the only players that will put fannies in the seats this year. As it is, it seems like there will be a shortage of these if things (fannies in seats) and if things continue as they are, do we need to make the park completely empty by alienating a good portion of the remaining fan base?

Dadawg_77
12-11-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
FACTS
1. Gamons is wrong 77.7% of the time
2. Is a major threat when he plays the field
3. Weaver is not that good of a pitcher. Maybe a 5th starter that is getting paid like a #2

QUESTIONS
1. Doesn't Frank have a no trade clause?
2. Would the Sox take on Browns salary? (JR does like pitchers with short term contracts...less then three years)

STATEMENT
Frank for Weaver and Soriano still is not a good trade!!

Hey, if something doesn't happen that Gammons reports does that mean he is wrong? I have more respect for Gammons and his craft after reading the passage in Moneyball where he calls Beane.

Frank isn't major threat, he will catch the balls thrown to him.

Frank for Weaver and Soriano might be a good trade esp if Soriano learns plate discipline.

jabrch
12-11-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

We'll see. I think it would be a bad deal for the Sox but remember Williams has wanted Frank gone for two years now.

Lip

Lip, Why would KW want Frank gone? I still don't understand that line of thought. Wasn't Kenny involved in giving Frank his current deal? If he wanted him gone - he could have gotten rid of him.

MisterB
12-11-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Lip, Why would KW want Frank gone? I still don't understand that line of thought. Wasn't Kenny involved in giving Frank his current deal? If he wanted him gone - he could have gotten rid of him.

FT's last two contracts have been handled by Reinsdorf himself. JR wants Frank here, KW doesn't but can't do anything about it.

Tekijawa
12-11-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Lip, Why would KW want Frank gone? I still don't understand that line of thought. Wasn't Kenny involved in giving Frank his current deal? If he wanted him gone - he could have gotten rid of him.

As much as I don't want it to happen a trib article mentioned that Ozzie and Frank still haven't spoken... Then I recall Ozzie saying some thing to the effect of Frank will Play my way or else...

This trade could be the or else...

This would be the worse trade that we could make as it accoplishes nothing for this team and we give up one of the Greatest Sox players of all time, and he's only playing for $6 million Dollars! I believe his numbers were better than Giambi's last year and he's making what $15?

DSpivack
12-11-2003, 11:20 AM
Now with Pettite gone to Houston the Yankees are definetely after Brown.

If Sox trade Big Hurt, without getting MAJOR talent in return, then as far as the White Sox go, I quit. I'm only 19, but they could then go screw themselves. Then it's go Cardinals [though they aren't much better than the Sox] or Braves [I shudder, but hey, they're the local team].

Deadguy
12-11-2003, 11:31 AM
I might do the trade if it was Kevin Brown for Thomas straight up, or a trade involving Soriano.

If a trade involving Thomas goes down, you can bet he probably went to Reinsdorf, and demanded a trade. With Williams knowing that Thomas is a 10 and 5 player, he probably wouldn't be wasting his time looking for ways to get rid of him, unless he had prior knowledge that Thomas would be willing to waive his 10 and 5 rights.

By Thomas invoking his 6 million dollar clause this season, that probably guarantees him the rest of the contract, if he is traded, so from a money standpoint, changing teams doesn't hurt Thomas at all. I just wonder if the mutual options remain in place for 2005 and 2006 if he is traded.

Tekijawa
12-11-2003, 11:40 AM
I actually think that if Frank is traded, he reverts to his old contract numbers? but I could be mistaken though.

Deadguy
12-11-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I actually think that if Frank is traded, he reverts to his old contract numbers? but I could be mistaken though.

Which old contract numbers?

My guess is that if FT is traded, the mutual options go away, and Thomas is guaranteed 24 million over the next three years.

From Thomas' viewpoint, invoking the 6 million dollar clause, and then demanding a trade is a smart move, since he probably felt he couldn't get 24 million on the open market.

If he declined the option, and the Sox refused the 8 million dollar option, he probably wasn't too confident in being able to get a 24+ million, 3 year deal from another team. This move essentially guarantees it, and Thomas still has some say in where he ends up.

Tekijawa
12-11-2003, 11:48 AM
I can't remeber the specifics but I think he would get the 8 million option (that the Sox had) then and the rest of the contract at it's highest ammount. I think 10 and 12 Million Guaranteed over the next two years.

jeremyb1
12-11-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I don't see any circumstance where we trade Frank for Weaver. I don't see how we do that. We don't save money. We don't get better. We don't please the fans. We don't build for the future.

I don't get it.

That must be misheard or mistated. Or Gammons is a dope (or all of the above). Now if it is Weaver and Soriano for Frank and Konerko or Koch, we have something to talk about. I do that in a heartbeat. Soriano replaces a good bit of Frank's production at a discounted price. We unload a lot of salary in PK or Koch. We are able to keep Maggs and Lee and probably compete in the bidding for a Ponson type guy.

I just can't see any circumstance where we trade Frank for Weaver straight up.

Kenny wouldn't do it.
The Chairman wouldn't do it.
Ozzie wouldn't do it.

I totally agree with you. Offense is quite likely our biggest problem this season with holes in CF, 2B, and a huge hole in the middle of the order if Maggs is dealt. Frank is our most cost efficient run producer so trading him would leave a gaping hole in the lineup. Trading him for an underachieving pitcher with an albatross of a contract when we're in the midst of a budget crisis makes incredibly little sense.

Lip Man 1
12-11-2003, 12:41 PM
Remember Thomas was one of the four Sox players to publicly call out Williams and his coaching staff (remember the Gary Pettis spying caper?).

The newspapers also reported this year that upon notification that Thomas was invoking his clause and returning that Williams wasn't happen about it.

I think it's a situation where Williams honestly feels Thomas is not good for team / clubhouse chemistry and want to unload him and if you think about it, what better time to do it?

He's not getting any younger, he'll probably be out of baseball in two or three years tops and Sox fans are already pissed that the organization gutted the team and many don't see any great future in 2004. Since they are already pissed what's one more item. I'm not advocating it, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Lip



Lip

34 Inch Stick
12-11-2003, 02:33 PM
The way they would unload him doesn't make sense though Lip. They are looking to reduce payroll. Weaver adds payroll immediately and significantly adds payroll in the future.

Can we stop believing the Weaver will do better outside of New York theory. THIS IS ANOTHER YANKEE LIE. He was not very good in Detroit, which was as low pressure/profile of a situation he could possibly find. The Yankees want someone to ignorantly believe this fiction that they have created and take the mess off of their hands

Lip Man 1
12-11-2003, 08:39 PM
I wasn't specifically addressing Thomas for Weaver. Earlier in the thread a fan asked why the Sox (specifically Williams) wants to unload him.

I listed what I think are the rumored reasons.

Lip