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al lopez
12-10-2003, 11:44 AM
If you owned a hotdog stand and you sold lousy hotdog's, would you tell your customers that they'll improve after they buy enough so you can afford to improve them? No you would go out of business. Over the last 5 years or so Reinsdorf & Co. have put all the responsibility for improving the team on the fans. You would think we were involved in some profit sharing or something! What ever happened to "build it and they will come"? I'm talking about a winning team not the ballpark, which I think is just fine. Last March Reinsdorf had the audacity to say that he wanted to win more than the fans and that what Sox fans really wanted was more distractions so they wouldn't be bored. This from the architect of the 94 strike and the 97 White Flag trade. Sox fans have carried the cross that is Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn for long enough. We should not have to bare this burden any longer. We have done our time. We have paid our debt to society. No group of people should be subjected to the likes of these two frauds for so long of a time. This is cruel and unusual punishment! No doubt Reinsdorf thinks Sox fans should be like the scum from up north and set attendance records during 97 loss seasons. The cubs start to spend now, after figuring out how to screw their loyal fans with a ticket scalping business. The same people who show up to gawk at the vines now get the opportunity to pay even more to do so. Sox fans don't play this game. The only way to get to Reinsdorf is at the turnstile, unfortunately. To Reinsdorf I say this: Sell the Bulls, Sell the Sox, and leave town!!!

KingXerxes
12-10-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by al lopez
If you owned a hotdog stand and you sold lousy hotdog's, would you tell your customers that they'll improve after they buy enough so you can afford to improve them? No you would go out of business. Over the last 5 years or so Reinsdorf & Co. have put all the responsibility for improving the team on the fans. You would think we were involved in some profit sharing or something! What ever happened to "build it and they will come"? I'm talking about a winning team not the ballpark, which I think is just fine. Last March Reinsdorf had the audacity to say that he wanted to win more than the fans and that what Sox fans really wanted was more distractions so they wouldn't be bored. This from the architect of the 94 strike and the 97 White Flag trade. Sox fans have carried the cross that is Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn for long enough. We should not have to bare this burden any longer. We have done our time. We have paid our debt to society. No group of people should be subjected to the likes of these two frauds for so long of a time. This is cruel and unusual punishment! No doubt Reinsdorf thinks Sox fans should be like the scum from up north and set attendance records during 97 loss seasons. The cubs start to spend now, after figuring out how to screw their loyal fans with a ticket scalping business. The same people who show up to gawk at the vines now get the opportunity to pay even more to do so. Sox fans don't play this game. The only way to get to Reinsdorf is at the turnstile, unfortunately. To Reinsdorf I say this: Sell the Bulls, Sell the Sox, and leave town!!!

I'm not defending Reinsdorf here by any stretch of the imagination - but you can't compare owning a baseball team to a conventional business. The reason being that if you owned a hot dog stand there is ZERO chance of your hot dog inventory one day going to arbitration or free agency when you become a popular hot dog stand, and you will not have a media breathing down your neck commenting on how you spread mustard on a hot dog. A lot of generic business disciplines do apply to baseball (or sports ownership) but the idiosyncrasies are so many and so huge that any comparison to a run of the mill business falls way short.

al lopez
12-10-2003, 12:42 PM
Are you saying that Sox fans should fill the ballpark regardless of the quality of the team? Regardless of the fact that we've had it shoved up our asses by this owner for 23 years? Do you think a managerial candidate such as Cito Gaston would have signed on to take part in whats going on right now with the gutting of the team? Reinsdorf is doing it again. The comparison to a hotdog stand was simplistic, I know. Hopefully you got the idea. Credibility goes both ways and Reinsdorf has none with Sox fans.

soxrme
12-10-2003, 12:55 PM
I am sick of hearing about the attendance. I believe we had 1.9 million attendance last year with a team that did not perform until July. This is not shabby by any means.

KingXerxes
12-10-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by al lopez
Are you saying that Sox fans should fill the ballpark regardless of the quality of the team? Regardless of the fact that we've had it shoved up our asses by this owner for 23 years? Do you think a managerial candidate such as Cito Gaston would have signed on to take part in whats going on right now with the gutting of the team? Reinsdorf is doing it again. The comparison to a hotdog stand was simplistic, I know. Hopefully you got the idea. Credibility goes both ways and Reinsdorf has none with Sox fans.

Where in my post did I say anything - even remotely resembling what you just posted? Where did I say that White Sox fans should fill the ballpark regardless of the quality of the team?

I have been quite clear in the past few years on these threads that a baseball team needs to have more than A WINNER in order to attract fans -and I have also been quite clear as to the fact that most of baseball hasn't figured out exactly how to do that. When baseball was a cheap form of entertainment - its price point was its greatest attraction to bringing fans into the game. Hell attendance even survived the onslaught of television broadcasts (which are a HUGE disincentive to actually attending a game) from the late 30's through the 70's. The problem arose when the price of going to a game started rising very disproportionately with other entertainment forms (some of which were getting cheaper through the years). The game has tried to re-invent itself by marketing "stars" and by conceding that the only measure of success is by winning a World Series. In the short run, they covered by selling to Corporate users, and bilking municipalities out of hundreds of millions - but the gravy train has about shut itself off. The problems with baseball are economic. Why do you think minor league baseball has risen so much in popularity over the past 10 years or so? It's because most minor league teams are marketed - and run - like major league teams were before the price to go to a game went through the roof. Do people attending a Kane County, Schaumburg, Joliet game atually care if those teams win their respective leagues? Nope - they just want to go to a game, and not have to give a second mortgage on their home in order to do it.

Baseball - as an industry - has yet to figure out a solution, if that's not apparent to you yet, I don't know when it will be. On a micro-level, every fans yells that their owner is a cheap SOB who doesn't want to win, yet on a macro-level there are only a couple of teams actually tooling up to win it all.

Ottawa_Sox
12-10-2003, 01:30 PM
I have been a WSI lurker for about a year now. I am not sure what possessed me to finally logon, but here are my 2 cents worth on the 'pay and they will come' issue. I was introduced to the White Sox in 1960. My father hated the Yankees and the White Sox seemed like a reasonable alternative at the time. 43 years later and they are still my team. I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and I have never actually met a White Sox fan face to face. My point here is that they hooked me for life, by simply winning the pennant in 1959. How many 'new generation' 9 year olds would sign up for life if they actually won something. I am sure most of us were 'branded' early in life. I basically reject the 'fill the seats and we will give you quality' argument. Excite the potential fan base with a winner. Then we would see results - short and long term. I have never been to Chicago, but I do have lots of Chisox memorabilia, including a seat from old Comiskey that cost me lots (exchange rate and shipping included).

daveeym
12-10-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Ottawa_Sox
I have been a WSI lurker for about a year now. I am not sure what possessed me to finally logon, but here are my 2 cents worth on the 'pay and they will come' issue. I was introduced to the White Sox in 1960. My father hated the Yankees and the White Sox seemed like a reasonable alternative at the time. 43 years later and they are still my team. I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and I have never actually met a White Sox fan face to face. My point here is that they hooked me for life, by simply winning the pennant in 1959. How many 'new generation' 9 year olds would sign up for life if they actually won something. I am sure most of us were 'branded' early in life. I basically reject the 'fill the seats and we will give you quality' argument. Excite the potential fan base with a winner. Then we would see results - short and long term. I have never been to Chicago, but I do have lots of Chisox memorabilia, including a seat from old Comiskey that cost me lots (exchange rate and shipping included).

Agreed, i probably would have been a flubs fan if the sox were in the 85 playoffs instead of the 83 playoffs.

Ottawa_Sox
12-10-2003, 04:02 PM
For those who consider absent-mindedly filling the stadium, I like to refer to the Toronto Maple Leaf hockey club. For approximately 30 years (and still counting), every Leaf game has been sold out. The owner for the majority of this time was Harold Ballard. What did Harold do for the fans indredible yearly unabashed loyalty? Nothing. The Leafs were beyond horrible. They never improved. Harold was an old curmudgeon who laughed all the way to the bank every year. Then he died. Now the Leafs are a powerhouse on the rise.

white sox bill
12-10-2003, 04:08 PM
Hey welcome aboard! :smile:

Look out Wal-Mart here I come as a greeter!

white sox bill
12-10-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Ottawa_Sox
For those who consider absent-mindedly filling the stadium, I like to refer to the Toronto Maple Leaf hockey club. For approximately 30 years (and still counting), every Leaf game has been sold out. The owner for the majority of this time was Harold Ballard. What did Harold do for the fans indredible yearly unabashed loyalty? Nothing. The Leafs were beyond horrible. They never improved. Harold was an old curmudgeon who laughed all the way to the bank every year. Then he died. Now the Leafs are a powerhouse on the rise.

Ottawa,
IIRC didn't Ballard get in trouble for tax evasion or something? Weren't his kids gonna take over Leafs?

cornball
12-10-2003, 04:34 PM
The Angels were just like us, then they won. Now they have money.

They were always the second team in town, and strapped financially (like us). Now they sell out and have increased payroll. Can we learn something?

Tough to draw, when your season tix base is low. Manangement over the years, has not excited the fan base to start the season to establish a season tix base. Last year we kept hearing the walk up.....yada

Win and the place will be packed regularly.

ewokpelts
12-10-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by cornball
The Angels were just like us, then they won. Now they have money.

They were always the second team in town, and strapped financially (like us). Now they sell out and have increased payroll. Can we learn something?

Tough to draw, when your season tix base is low. Manangement over the years, has not excited the fan base to start the season to establish a season tix base. Last year we kept hearing the walk up.....yada

Win and the place will be packed regularly.

not raising ticket prices might help too

Ottawa_Sox
12-11-2003, 01:29 PM
White Sox Bill: Thanks for the greeting. I think you are correct about Ballard's tax evasion. I could easily be wrong, but I think his tax problem had nothing to do with the Maple Leafs. His sons had something to do with the transition of power, but I don't think they took over as reigning CEOs. Harold treated past Leaf stars with contempt. Darryl Sittler and Dave Keon come to mind. So there are some obvious parallels to the Chisox treatment of past stars. When Roger Nielson was inducted into the hockey hall of fame, he said he wanted to thank Harold Ballard among others. He then looked skyward and started his thanks. Then he stopped mid-sentence and looked downward to the stage floor and started again. The entire audience howled at the reference to Harold being in Hell. The Leafs never spent the money they had available for the 70's, 80's and 90's. Now they actually keep their players from year to year.