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Frank the Tank
12-09-2003, 12:31 PM
IMO, the White Sox problems reach far beyond next year. The truth about the White Sox future is, there is no chance of winning a world series unless they get incredibly lucky. Unless their is some sort of economic reform adopted by MLB, the Chicago White Sox will be little more than a farm team in the years to come. Player salaries have gone out of control and team loyalty doesn't exist anymore. We live in an era when making $15MM a year is so much more important than making $10 MM. We live in an era when money became the sign of respect, not individual performance on the field. Frank Thomas might be the last White Sox "Great".

With the White Sox, as soon as a player excels, he is lost to free agency or traded away to cut payroll. I'm not sure we will see very many mainstays in a sox uniform (unless it is Jose Valentin of course :(: ). Magglio Ordonez is great example. He started off his career with the sox and became a great player. Now, KW is almost forced to trade him because he knows there is no way he can sign Ordonez when his contract expires. The Sox couldn't afford him even if they tried. Even if JR was committed to spending money, I don't think he could go much higher than $80 MM. In short, the sox highest is not even half of what the Yankees are willing to spend.

As is stands, the White Sox are little more than a AAA team developing players. We assume the risk of starting inexperienced players and provide the valuable work experience they need to develop. As soon as they develop....THEY GONE! I would even support another baseball strike if it meant a salary cap was adopted. Would player be offered $20 MM if there was a $80MM salary cap?

cornball
12-09-2003, 01:21 PM
In reality, more than half of the teams in MLB have no chance of reaching the playoffs next year. We can say this ...right now! The system is not right.

Some of the teams are unlucky due to the divisions they are in, others because of the lack of funds to compete.

Anything can happen if you get to the playoffs. We are fortunant to be in one of the weakest divisions in baseball. KW needs to pull a lucky rabbit out of his ass.

bobj4400
12-09-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I would even support another baseball strike if it meant a salary cap was adopted.

I was all for a strike 2 years ago...the agents have ruined baseball over the past decade and a strike may be the only way to fix the salary problems.

Hokiesox
12-09-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by bobj4400
I was all for a strike 2 years ago...the agents have ruined baseball over the past decade and a strike may be the only way to fix the salary problems.

You guys don't want a strike, where players demand MORE money. You want a lockout, where owners say "you make too much"

Subtle difference, but huge in connotation. What's more, we don't want the next lockout lead by JR, otherwise, it may never end. See: NHL lockout, 2004, let by Bill Wirtz.

JRIG
12-09-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by cornball
In reality, more than half of the teams in MLB have no chance of reaching the playoffs next year. We can say this ...right now! The system is not right.


How do you figure? The only teams I would classify as having "no chance" are Detroit, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Texas, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Cincy.

That's seven teams. The Expos were over .500 last year. The Marlins won the World Series. Everyone in the NL West has a chance. Cleveland has some good young position players and plays in a weak division. Toronto has the same and is run very well. Even Texas will have an incredible hitting team if they can get the pitching to come around. All of these teams have chances.

So seven of the teams are written off. That's not quite more than half.

DSpivack
12-09-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
How do you figure? The only teams I would classify as having "no chance" are Detroit, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Texas, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Cincy.\

As they currently stand, I would add the White Sox to that list.

34rancher
12-10-2003, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
How do you figure? The only teams I would classify as having "no chance" are Detroit, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Texas, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Cincy.

That's seven teams. The Expos were over .500 last year. The Marlins won the World Series. Everyone in the NL West has a chance. Cleveland has some good young position players and plays in a weak division. Toronto has the same and is run very well. Even Texas will have an incredible hitting team if they can get the pitching to come around. All of these teams have chances.

So seven of the teams are written off. That's not quite more than half.

You forgot basically anyone from the AL Central, the Cardinals, Astros, Toronto, Expos (now that MLB owns them), amongst others. While I agree that several of them have "good young talent". That same talent will be gone in the next couple of years. Vlad is gone from Montreal. The Astros cannot keep Billy Wagner? The Cards are talking about downsizing. I realize that these teams can make the playoffs, but win it? Please. Call me on this in one year.......

The 2004 World Series Champ will be one of the following..
1. Yanks
2. Red Sox
3. Cubs

They are the only teams making moves right now setting themselves up.

Johnny Mostil
12-10-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher
Call me on this in one year.......

The 2004 World Series Champ will be one of the following..
1. Yanks
2. Red Sox
3. Cubs

They are the only teams making moves right now setting themselves up.

Just curious (and maybe a question arising mostly from my ignorance)--in hindsight, what do you think were the moves the '03 Marlins or the '02 Angels had made by the preceding December that set them up to win the World Series the following year? (I was going to ask about the '01 D-Backs as well, but, oblivious though I am, I quickly figured that one out . . . )

jabrch
12-10-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Johnny Mostil
Just curious (and maybe a question arising mostly from my ignorance)--in hindsight, what do you think were the moves the '03 Marlins or the '02 Angels had made by the preceding December that set them up to win the World Series the following year? (I was going to ask about the '01 D-Backs as well, but, oblivious though I am, I quickly figured that one out . . . )

The 03 Marlins signed Pudge.
The 02 Angels signed Sele and Appier.

Neither team lost any significant talent from the prior year and both teams had top tier MLB ready players coming up who contributed down the stretch and in the playoffs.

JRIG
12-10-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher
You forgot basically anyone from the AL Central, the Cardinals, Astros, Toronto, Expos (now that MLB owns them), amongst others. While I agree that several of them have "good young talent". That same talent will be gone in the next couple of years. Vlad is gone from Montreal. The Astros cannot keep Billy Wagner? The Cards are talking about downsizing. I realize that these teams can make the playoffs, but win it? Please. Call me on this in one year.......

The 2004 World Series Champ will be one of the following..
1. Yanks
2. Red Sox
3. Cubs

They are the only teams making moves right now setting themselves up.

The question was making the playoffs, not winning the World Series.

Besides, once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. In a short 5 or 7 game series, even the Marlins can beat the all-powerful Yankees. It's not a 162 game grind at that point. It's playing good baseball for 7 games.

Johnny Mostil
12-10-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
The 03 Marlins signed Pudge.
The 02 Angels signed Sele and Appier.

Neither team lost any significant talent from the prior year and both teams had top tier MLB ready players coming up who contributed down the stretch and in the playoffs.

Good grief, how did I forget about Rodriguez? Thanks.

doogiec
12-10-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
The 03 Marlins signed Pudge.
The 02 Angels signed Sele and Appier.

Neither team lost any significant talent from the prior year and both teams had top tier MLB ready players coming up who contributed down the stretch and in the playoffs.

Not to be a wise guy, but the question was what had been done by DECEMBER of the year prior to the championship. Pudge and Sele were signed in January, Appier was traded at the end of December. The key deals took place well after the winter meetings.

npdempse
12-10-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Not to be a wise guy, but the question was what had been done by DECEMBER of the year prior to the championship. Pudge and Sele were signed in January, Appier was traded at the end of December. The key deals took place well after the winter meetings.

Seriously. That Pudge deal showed the Boras facade crumbling. There will still be great FAs floating around in Jan. If KW can pick some up, all of a sudden we're back in the game.

Johnny Mostil
12-10-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Not to be a wise guy, but the question was what had been done by DECEMBER of the year prior to the championship. Pudge and Sele were signed in January, Appier was traded at the end of December. The key deals took place well after the winter meetings.

Not a wise guy at all. I'm glad you pointed this out. I had honestly completely forgotten about the Pudge deal (don't ask me where I thought he appeared from--maybe the planet Krypton), so I sure couldn't remember the timing of it. As for the original post that prompted my question, well, if I were to pick three teams in the Series at this point, I might pick the Yanks, Bosox, or Cubs as well, although, as pointed out, there's still some time until spring practice--not to mention 162 games after that . . .

34rancher
12-10-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
The question was making the playoffs, not winning the World Series.

Besides, once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. In a short 5 or 7 game series, even the Marlins can beat the all-powerful Yankees. It's not a 162 game grind at that point. It's playing good baseball for 7 games.

I just notice that the past year, the four teams left in the NLCS and the ALCS, were the teams that profited the most by the system at the trade deadline. The current system says that if you have any high priced salary, dump it off for nothing. What happened in Cinncinati and Pittsburgh should have Oliver Stone doing movies. Don't kid yourself, we are only about a 5 hour drive from it happenind here.