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joecrede
12-09-2003, 01:21 PM
As of right now, the Sox have only $15M commited for '05 (to Konerko and Thomas).

BeerHandle
12-09-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
As of right now, the Sox have only $15M commited for '05 (to Konerko and Thomas).

Joecrede:

Quite interesting bit of information.

Frank the Tank
12-09-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
As of right now, the Sox have only $15M commited for '05 (to Konerko and Thomas).

Don't forget the $7MM they are going to offer Valentin for 2005!

Tekijawa
12-09-2003, 01:39 PM
I think Thomas and the Sox have a deal Similar to what they had this year too, both have outs! Next years FA crop is supposed to be larger than this years, and judging by all the Big Contracts being thrown around, a $55 million dollar pay roll next year could bring some nice players... I'm assuming that the Cubs will offer Prior Arbitration, but that doesn't mean he'll take it?

Huisj
12-09-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I think Thomas and the Sox have a deal Similar to what they had this year too, both have outs! Next years FA crop is supposed to be larger than this years, and judging by all the Big Contracts being thrown around, a $55 million dollar pay roll next year could bring some nice players... I'm assuming that the Cubs will offer Prior Arbitration, but that doesn't mean he'll take it?

Prior doesn't have a choice to leave. He's only been in the league two years, he's on the cubs and he can't do anything about that. Him being eligible for arbitration simply means that if the cubs and him don't work out a contract ahead of time, he will go to arbitration, and an arbitrator will decide his salary. He can't reject that though.

MisterB
12-09-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I think Thomas and the Sox have a deal Similar to what they had this year too, both have outs! Next years FA crop is supposed to be larger than this years, and judging by all the Big Contracts being thrown around, a $55 million dollar pay roll next year could bring some nice players... I'm assuming that the Cubs will offer Prior Arbitration, but that doesn't mean he'll take it?

Prior's signed for $2.1M/$2.5M/$2.5M over the next 3 seasons, but can opt out for arbitration after the '04 season. If he has a real good '04 he could make serious bank by going to arbitration.

bobj4400
12-09-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Prior doesn't have a choice to leave. He's only been in the league two years, he's on the cubs and he can't do anything about that. Him being eligible for arbitration simply means that if the cubs and him don't work out a contract ahead of time, he will go to arbitration, and an arbitrator will decide his salary. He can't reject that though.

I do not believe those rules apply to Prior, as he signed a major league contract out of college. Unlike most young players, the Cubs do not control his rights for his first 6 professional seasons, but only for the term of the contract that he signed. I believe which gives him an out after 2005, but I am not sure on that point...

Tekijawa
12-09-2003, 02:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Prior has an out after next season, I would imagine that he'll opt for the Arbitration at the Least, could you imagine what he'd make on the open market? If colon is worth 48 million over 4 years at the age of 30, this guy is going to have more cash than he'll know what to do with!

Hangar18
12-09-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by bobj4400
I do not believe those rules apply to Prior, as he signed a major league contract out of college. Unlike most young players, the Cubs do not control his rights for his first 6 professional seasons, but only for the term of the contract that he signed. I believe which gives him an out after 2005, but I am not sure on that point...


Thats Exactly Right. The Messiah is on the cubs strictly on HIS TERMS. He WILL go to Arbitration, and he WILL BREAK THE BANK. The Messiah will BreaK the B-A-N-K shortly .....
and I cant wait for him to be the first 180 Million Dollar Man

JDP
12-10-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
As of right now, the Sox have only $15M commited for '05 (to Konerko and Thomas).

2005 "Big-Named" Free Agent Class
(per contract as of 12/09/03):

SP Kevin Appier
OF Garret Anderson
SP Tony Armas
SP Kris Benson
OF Lance Berkman
OF Carlos Beltran
3B Eric Chavez
SS Orlando Cabrera
1B Carlos Delgago
RP Octavio Dotel
OF Steve Finley
SS Nomar Garciaparra
3B Troy Glaus
SS Alex S. Gonzalez
SS Christian Guzman
RP Trevor Hoffman
SP Orlando Hernandez
OF Geoff Jenkins
OF Jacque Jones
OF Brian Jordan
RP Billy Koch
3B Corey Koskie
RP BH. Kim
OF Carlos Lee
SP Esteban Loaiza
..C Paul LoDuca
RP Braden Looper
SP Derek Lowe
SP Pedro Martinez
..C Mike Matheny
SP Eric Milton
SP Matt Morris
1B Kevin Millar
RP Rob Nenn
SP Hideo Nomo
OF Xavier Nady
OF Trot Nixon
1B John Olerud
OF Magglio Ordonez
SP Russ Ortiz
SP Ramon Ortiz
DH David Ortiz
RP Troy Percival
SP Brad Penny
SP Brad Radke
3B Aramis Ramirez
SP Mark Redmond
SP Aaron Sele
UT Richie Sexson
SP Steve Sparks
OF Ichiro Suzuki
UT Mark Teixeira
..C Jason Varitek
2B Jose Vidro
SS Jose Valentin
SS Omar Vizquel
SP Javier Vazquez
SP Jarrod Washburn
2B Eric Young

Also, not sure if it belongs in this post, but as long as I have the information in my head still, a very noteworthy clause in Konerko's contract: His 2004 & 2005 salaries rise by $0.5 if he is traded.

joecrede
12-20-2003, 12:24 PM
Lee $8.5M
Konerko $8.5M
Thomas $6.5M? might be $8M
Buehrle $5.75M

4 players @ $30.75M.

This isn't good. Those four as a group could be easily replaceable come 2005.

CubKilla
12-20-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Lee $8.5M
Konerko $8.5M
Thomas $6.5M? might be $8M
Buehrle $5.75M

4 players @ $30.75M.

This isn't good. Those four as a group could be easily replaceable come 2005.

Considering the White Sox stand to lose millions from their continued inactivity this offseason while nickle-and-diming and blaming the fans for their refusal to increase payroll..... even slightly, JR will probably drop '05's payroll to $45-50 million.

oldcomiskey
12-20-2003, 01:33 PM
take ichiro off the list as he just signed a new deal with seattle

doublem23
12-20-2003, 06:00 PM
I'm not sure how the rules work in Prior's case, but I'm pretty sure he signed a major-league deal so he's not restricted to some of the crap most other rookies are. Regardless, either he or Wood is going to be gone in a few years... I still can't envision anyway Prior doesn't end up in the Bronx, though.

joecrede
03-03-2004, 10:01 AM
Buehrle $5.75M
Konerko $8.75M
Lee $8M
Pollitte ($1.3M team option)
Marte $1.25M
Takatsu $250K buyout ($2.5M team option)
Thomas $8M

Marte's contract helps make up for the mistake they made with Lee's. With $32M committed to the 5 players listed without options it looks like they might be beginning to get their financial house in order.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Buehrle $5.75M
Konerko $8.75M
Lee $8M
Pollitte ($1.3M team option)
Marte $1.25M
Takatsu $250K buyout ($2.5M team option)
Thomas $8M

Marte's contract helps make up for the mistake they made with Lee's. With $32M committed to the 5 players listed without options it looks like they might be beginning to get their financial house in order. What mistake with Lee? He's worth it, and maybe even worth more if can have the type of MVP season many predict. He's just starting to show what he can really do, and letting him walk would have been a bad move. I'm not so sure you could have gotten him cheaper. Besides other teams seemed very interested in taking him off our hands after he had signed the contract.

voodoochile
03-03-2004, 10:12 AM
This was exactly what I was trying to get at with my article on Sox Payroll and the coming CBA negotiation. They have no one signed past the end of 2006 at all.

If they are going to continue to build teams that can be burned down after 4-5 years (the average length of CBA deals) then it is going to be a long long wait for a championship.

joecrede
03-03-2004, 10:13 AM
Lee has proven to be an average offensive LF'er.

voodoochile
03-03-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Lee has proven to be an average offensive LF'er.

I thought he was plus OPS for LF'ers. Big plus like 80 points or something. Am I nuts?

Frater Perdurabo
03-03-2004, 10:14 AM
I'd like to see more quality starting pitchers on that list of contracts for 2005.

joecrede
03-03-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
[BIf they are going to continue to build teams that can be burned down after 4-5 years (the average length of CBA deals) then it is going to be a long long wait for a championship. [/B]

Financial flexibility is a key component to winning a championship.

Deadguy
03-03-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Buehrle $5.75M
Konerko $8.75M
Lee $8M
Pollitte ($1.3M team option)
Marte $1.25M
Takatsu $250K buyout ($2.5M team option)
Thomas $8M

Marte's contract helps make up for the mistake they made with Lee's. With $32M committed to the 5 players listed without options it looks like they might be beginning to get their financial house in order.

Thomas' is not guaranteed, as it is a mutual option, that can be declined by both sides, granting FT FA. Right now Buehrle, Konerko, Lee, and Marte are the only guarantees.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Lee has proven to be an average offensive LF'er. Average left fielder offensively? What is the average salary I wonder? He led the team in rbi's and sb's. Maybe something else too. .291, 31 hr, and leading the team in rbi's. I don't see that as average. Just wait until he locks in lefties, he stunk against them last year. When he does that, he could be the best hitter on the team.

Hangar18
03-03-2004, 10:53 AM
The SOX have a TREMENDOUS opportunity to Alienate the rest of their Fans by NOT signing anyone next year, and going with a 20 Million Dollar Payroll. Jerry Reinsdorfs already trying to build a Time Machine to take us one year ahead .........

Dadawg_77
03-03-2004, 11:01 AM
http://dugoutdollars.blogspot.com/2003_12_28_dugoutdollars_archive.html

This could be usefull here.

MisterB
03-03-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Average left fielder offensively? What is the average salary I wonder? He led the team in rbi's and sb's. Maybe something else too. .291, 31 hr, and leading the team in rbi's. I don't see that as average. Just wait until he locks in lefties, he stunk against them last year. When he does that, he could be the best hitter on the team.

IF he locks in against lefties. Lee's never hit lefties that well (particularly power-wise) and overall he still can't draw a walk. Last year he was above average even amongst LF (only Manny and Garret Anderson were obviously better in the AL), but considering his career so far you really have to question if he can even repeat his 2003 performance. He's as likely to revert to the .265/25/85 Lee as he is to stay the .290/30/113 Lee.

Randar68
03-03-2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The SOX have a TREMENDOUS opportunity to Alienate the rest of their Fans by NOT signing anyone next year, and going with a 20 Million Dollar Payroll. Jerry Reinsdorfs already trying to build a Time Machine to take us one year ahead .........

Has anyone noticed what the Blackhawks have done with the Labor problems upcoming?

They fired most of their scouting department (no salary to pay during lock-out) and a GM who lead their best drafts of the past 10-15 years, and traded every vet with any value for draft picks (Hello, no scouting staff).

UGH.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
IF he locks in against lefties. Lee's never hit lefties that well (particularly power-wise) and overall he still can't draw a walk. Last year he was above average even amongst LF (only Manny and Garret Anderson were obviously better in the AL), but considering his career so far you really have to question if he can even repeat his 2003 performance. He's as likely to revert to the .265/25/85 Lee as he is to stay the .290/30/113 Lee. I disagree. First of all I believe Guillen will be a positive for all the players, but besides that, Lee has shown a lot more patience at the plate. He recognizes this as a big part of his success, and shows no reason to revert to his old form of not being patient. That patience I speak of also gives me confidence that he will hit lefties. He doesn't necessarily hit them for power. If he can just hit them, then were looking at similar power numbers and a significantly higher average. Those are Magg's numbers.

MisterB
03-03-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I disagree. First of all I believe Guillen will be a positive for all the players, but besides that, Lee has shown a lot more patience at the plate. He recognizes this as a big part of his success, and shows no reason to revert to his old form of not being patient. That patience I speak of also gives me confidence that he will hit lefties. He doesn't necessarily hit them for power. If he can just hit them, then were looking at similar power numbers and a significantly higher average. Those are Magg's numbers.

He drew half as many walks in '03 as he did in '02, so he already has reverted to his old form. With the exception of his HR numbers, he hasn't been consistent in any facet of his offense so far.

jeremyb1
03-03-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Average left fielder offensively? What is the average salary I wonder? He led the team in rbi's and sb's. Maybe something else too. .291, 31 hr, and leading the team in rbi's.

...and at most 30 walks. The reality remains that Carlos slipped last season. His numbers were .264/.359/.484 in '02 and .291/.331/.499 last sesaon. Despite a meaningless increase in BA and a slight increase in slugging, his numbers were far better in '02. So the idea that Carlos has bloomed into an MVP calliber player deserving of 8 million by producing less does not hold up in my opinion. Combine all this with the fact that he's already 28 and you can make a good case that '02 might be the best season Carlos will ever have.

Sure he's still above average as a leftfielder but does that make him worth 8 million? Carlos had a 116 OPS+ last season but Matt Stairs has a 123 career OPS+ and 146 last season and just signed for 8 million. Other guys that signed for 2 or 3 million at most such as Rondel White and Raul Mondesi posted numbers similar to Carlos last season. There are a lot of outfielders out there that can hit some, they don't cost 8 million.

voodoochile
03-03-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Financial flexibility is a key component to winning a championship.

Only if you are sometimes willing to be flexible upwards...

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
...and at most 30 walks. The reality remains that Carlos slipped last season. His numbers were .264/.359/.484 in '02 and .291/.331/.499 last sesaon. Despite a meaningless increase in BA and a slight increase in slugging, his numbers were far better in '02. So the idea that Carlos has bloomed into an MVP calliber player deserving of 8 million by producing less does not hold up in my opinion. Combine all this with the fact that he's already 28 and you can make a good case that '02 might be the best season Carlos will ever have.

Sure he's still above average as a leftfielder but does that make him worth 8 million? Carlos had a 116 OPS+ last season but Matt Stairs has a 123 career OPS+ and 146 last season and just signed for 8 million. Other guys that signed for 2 or 3 million at most such as Rondel White and Raul Mondesi posted numbers similar to Carlos last season. There are a lot of outfielders out there that can hit some, they don't cost 8 million. So he replaced some of his walks with hits, and out of those hits his slugging percentage increased. How is that meaningless? Besides, last season is considered the tip of the ice berg. His potential hasn't been reached yet. Unfortunately, you have to pay for potential. I still think he's worth it. I don't see your point of him producing last season less than in 02.

MisterB
03-03-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
So he replaced some of his walks with hits, and out of those hits his slugging percentage increased. How is that meaningless? Besides, last season is considered the tip of the ice berg. His potential hasn't been reached yet. Unfortunately, you have to pay for potential. I still think he's worth it. I don't see your point of him producing last season less than in 02.

If he simply replaced walks with hits his OBP would have stayed the same but it went down. If he had really kept his plate patience he would have maintained the walks and added hits instead of moving them from one column to the other (and losing some in the process). Plus Caballo is entering his 6th season - I think we've seen a lot more of the iceberg than just the tip, and frankly it isn't as big as we all thought.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
If he simply replaced walks with hits his OBP would have stayed the same but it went down. If he had really kept his plate patience he would have maintained the walks and added hits instead of moving them from one column to the other (and losing some in the process). Plus Caballo is entering his 6th season - I think we've seen a lot more of the iceberg than just the tip, and frankly it isn't as big as we all thought. I guess, but the guy led the team in rbi's last season. I like the walks, but if he is producing and driving in runs, well that's better. Especially considering that he was 5th in the order primarily, which essentially is a power position. I forgot who broke it down, but every order has their own set of guidelines. Obviously the lead off hitters get on any way possible, but it had the three spot as a guy with power but could also draw walks (Frank all the way), and the fifth was listed as a spot where you were allowed to sacrifice with some strikeouts with the addition of power. Carlos filled that role well, and still had a .290 average. You can discount what he did, but he was a pretty good offensive presence in my opinion. He also stepped up in the field.

rahulsekhar
03-03-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Has anyone noticed what the Blackhawks have done with the Labor problems upcoming?

They fired most of their scouting department (no salary to pay during lock-out) and a GM who lead their best drafts of the past 10-15 years, and traded every vet with any value for draft picks (Hello, no scouting staff).

UGH.

Please don't tell me you're referring to Mike "Euro" Smith? There's virtually nothing I miss about the Boris Mironov era in Blackhawk lore.

MisterB
03-03-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I guess, but the guy led the team in rbi's last season. I like the walks, but if he is producing and driving in runs, well that's better. Especially considering that he was 5th in the order primarily, which essentially is a power position. I forgot who broke it down, but every order has their own set of guidelines. Obviously the lead off hitters get on any way possible, but it had the three spot as a guy with power but could also draw walks (Frank all the way), and the fifth was listed as a spot where you were allowed to sacrifice with some strikeouts with the addition of power. Carlos filled that role well, and still had a .290 average. You can discount what he did, but he was a pretty good offensive presence in my opinion. He also stepped up in the field.

He hit better from the #2 hole than from further down in the order:

#2 - .320/14hr/54rbi in 253ab
#5-6 - .271/16/55 in 351 ab

If he gets all those AB's from the 5/6 slots he ends up with numbers like .271/28/95 which are no great shakes for someone who's supposed to drive in runs. Also this year his average with RISP was about 60 points higher than it has been in past years, so who knows if that happens again next year. Lee is another batter like Valentin before him who hits great in front of Thomas, but not so much when fending for himself in the middle of the lineup.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
He hit better from the #2 hole than from further down in the order:

#2 - .320/14hr/54rbi in 253ab
#5-6 - .271/16/55 in 351 ab

If he gets all those AB's from the 5/6 slots he ends up with numbers like .271/28/95 which are no great shakes for someone who's supposed to drive in runs. Also this year his average with RISP was about 60 points higher than it has been in past years, so who knows if that happens again next year. Lee is another batter like Valentin before him who hits great in front of Thomas, but not so much when fending for himself in the middle of the lineup. But that's basically saying he's clutch. He dials in when the runs are there to be scored, and maybe is more free swinging when opportunities aren't present in order to try to make something out of nothing. Whatever, we won't know until this year begins, but I have confidence in him to continue to produce, and hopefully even more than ever. I would like him in the two hole against righties and lefties, not just lefties. Maybe he has worked hard on the lefties during the offseason, otherwise I really don't understand the logic. Regardless, I expect another good year from Carlos.

jeremyb1
03-03-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I guess, but the guy led the team in rbi's last season. I like the walks, but if he is producing and driving in runs, well that's better. Especially considering that he was 5th in the order primarily, which essentially is a power position. I forgot who broke it down, but every order has their own set of guidelines. Obviously the lead off hitters get on any way possible, but it had the three spot as a guy with power but could also draw walks (Frank all the way), and the fifth was listed as a spot where you were allowed to sacrifice with some strikeouts with the addition of power. Carlos filled that role well, and still had a .290 average. You can discount what he did, but he was a pretty good offensive presence in my opinion. He also stepped up in the field.

He'd be generating more runs if he walked. RBIs are support neutral. Driving in runs is dependent on teamates reaching base ahead of you and being lucky enough to have your hits coincide with those situations where runners are on base or even better yet in scoring position.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
He'd be generating more runs if he walked. RBIs are support neutral. Driving in runs is dependent on teamates reaching base ahead of you and being lucky enough to have your hits coincide with those situations where runners are on base or even better yet in scoring position. I'm not trying to discount the value of walks, but by that logic you have to be lucky as well to have your own walks end up in runs from others' hits coinciding. Getting on base is very significant, but regardless, Carlos Lee was still productive. He did very well in the two hole, and he also did what he was supposed to do in the 5th spot. You want to draw walks, but the fifth spot is a spot where you are to be more aggressive. He has been patient, and it is more reflective in the two spot because that is what that spot in the order calls for. Either way, I still expect a good performance this year.

maurice
03-03-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Lee is another batter like Valentin before him who hits great in front of Thomas, but not so much when fending for himself in the middle of the lineup.

In a strange turn of events, Valentin did worse in the two hole last year, which is how CLee got the job.

Valentin batting second: .229 / .315 / .447
Valentin batting seventh: .269 / .333 / .542

Originally posted by SEALgep
I would like [CLee] in the two hole against righties and lefties, not just lefties.

Ditto.

MisterB
03-03-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by maurice
In a strange turn of events, Valentin did worse in the two hole last year, which is how CLee got the job.

Valentin batting second: .229 / .315 / .447
Valentin batting seventh: .269 / .333 / .542

Yeah. I was thinking more of 2000 when he was batting 2nd and put up career highs in batting average, doubles, and total bases.

jeremyb1
03-03-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I'm not trying to discount the value of walks, but by that logic you have to be lucky as well to have your own walks end up in runs from others' hits coinciding. Getting on base is very significant, but regardless, Carlos Lee was still productive. He did very well in the two hole, and he also did what he was supposed to do in the 5th spot. You want to draw walks, but the fifth spot is a spot where you are to be more aggressive. He has been patient, and it is more reflective in the two spot because that is what that spot in the order calls for. Either way, I still expect a good performance this year.

I think of the number two hitter as an additional table setter and that requires a high OBP. Carlos was below average in '03 largely because of his lack of walks so I don't feel he did exactly what he needed to in that position.

The reason walks are more valuable than RBIs is that with a walk you can potentiall drive in or advance runners, you can be driven in yourself, and you allow a teammate the opportunity to score runs. If Carlos is batting second then he's batting ahead of Frank Thomas an even better hitter. So with a runner on first Carlos can swing away attempting to drive the runner home from first base or he can take a disciplined approach and increase his chances of reaching base, continuing the inning and best of all running up the pitcher's pitch count allowing Frank to see more pitches in the on deck circle and then come to the plate with a runner in scoring position.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think of the number two hitter as an additional table setter and that requires a high OBP. Carlos was below average in '03 largely because of his lack of walks so I don't feel he did exactly what he needed to in that position.

The reason walks are more valuable than RBIs is that with a walk you can potentiall drive in or advance runners, you can be driven in yourself, and you allow a teammate the opportunity to score runs. If Carlos is batting second then he's batting ahead of Frank Thomas an even better hitter. So with a runner on first Carlos can swing away attempting to drive the runner home from first base or he can take a disciplined approach and increase his chances of reaching base, continuing the inning and best of all running up the pitcher's pitch count allowing Frank to see more pitches in the on deck circle and then come to the plate with a runner in scoring position. Again, I am not discounting the value of walks. But there is no way a walk is more valuable than an rbi. A walk is exactly what you say, potential. An rbi is a done deal. Lee has shown more patience at the plate, and I don't think he is opposed to walking. He gets pitches to hit, especially with where he was in the lineup, and he tries to take advantage of them. Are there times where he should probably take a walk, sure. It's not like he was swinging all over the place this season. Maybe he will work the counts even more this season, but I will not be dissatisfied with a similar effort from last year. I always would like to see improvement, and from what we saw last year, I don't see it being unrealistic in seeing additional improvement.

CWSGuy406
03-03-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Please don't tell me you're referring to Mike "Euro" Smith? There's virtually nothing I miss about the Boris Mironov era in Blackhawk lore.

I don't think he's referring to Smith as to Marshall Johnston (sp?) who was fired after Smith, and he was the guy who basically built the Ottawa Senators. But that's for another board.

I want to see Lee in the two hole, and I really didn't like him getting the 8 million extension, but I'm not saying I'm not happy with it. I think we could have really got something on the market for Lee, perhaps Perez and Miller/Mota or a comination from Los Angeles.

Dadawg_77
03-03-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Again, I am not discounting the value of walks. But there is no way a walk is more valuable than an rbi. A walk is exactly what you say, potential. An rbi is a done deal. Lee has shown more patience at the plate, and I don't think he is opposed to walking. He gets pitches to hit, especially with where he was in the lineup, and he tries to take advantage of them. Are there times where he should probably take a walk, sure. It's not like he was swinging all over the place this season. Maybe he will work the counts even more this season, but I will not be dissatisfied with a similar effort from last year. I always would like to see improvement, and from what we saw last year, I don't see it being unrealistic in seeing additional improvement.

When you are speculating on future production, the value of a walk has ten fold more importance then RBIs.

SEALgep
03-03-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
When you are speculating on future production, the value of a walk has ten fold more importance then RBIs. Lol, that's because an rbi is past tense. It's production that has an immediate result.

joecrede
04-12-2004, 12:05 PM
Buehrle $5.75M
Konerko $8.75M
Lee $8M
Marte $1.25M
Ordonez $14M
Pollitte ($1.3M team option)
Takatsu $250K buyout ($2.5M team option)
Thomas $8M

If Ordonez were to be signed for $14M per, 6 players under contract (not including team options) for $46M with Garland arbitration eligible and Valentin and Loaiza entering free agency.

DSpivack
04-12-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lol, that's because an rbi is past tense. It's production that has an immediate result.

But an RBI is somewhat meaningless because it requires a teammate on base. The hitter has no control over that. It seems to me it's not an argument of either walk or rbi; the point is to get on base. An RBI that is a hit does exactly that. So does a walk. A walk is just as good as a hit.

MRKARNO
04-12-2004, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Buehrle $5.75M
Konerko $8.75M
Lee $8M
Marte $1.25M
Ordonez $14M
Pollitte ($1.3M team option)
Takatsu $250K buyout ($2.5M team option)
Thomas $8M

If Ordonez were to be signed for $14M per, 6 players under contract (not including team options) for $46M with Garland arbitration eligible and Valentin and Loaiza entering free agency.

But while the deal could average 14 mil a year, these contracts are always backloaded so we may only be on the hook for 9-10 mil the first year and 16-18 mil the final year.

MRKARNO
04-12-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack


I'm honored you are using my quote as your sig. I think the result is somewhere along the lines of the 2001 Mariners (116 wins) if you have to ask