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View Full Version : Are Kenny Williams' feet in the fire?


Irishlawyer
12-09-2003, 08:33 AM
During the mea culpa speech after the season, KW told us he was going to go out and get us a bunch of "grinders". He specifically named Carl Everett as a target. While I will shed no tears if CE is not signed, he is a guy KW made a commitment to get. When do statements like this come home to roost? Will KW be held accountable for failing to fulfill his "plan" or is he so much JR's lackey that he is immune?

Hokiesox
12-09-2003, 09:10 AM
No, because KW doesn't hold the purse strings.

KingXerxes
12-09-2003, 09:32 AM
Maybe I'm reading a bit too much into today's Tribune article, but doesn't it seem like KW is starting to openly blame his budget constraints (i.e. Jerry Reinsdorf) for the loss of all of the free agents in a manner that he had previously deferred from? If so - his days are numbered as there is no way Reinsdorf will allow himself to be connected to the issue. That's the way JR works.

Procol Harum
12-09-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Maybe I'm reading a bit too much into today's Tribune article, but doesn't it seem like KW is starting to openly blame his budget constraints (i.e. Jerry Reinsdorf) for the loss of all of the free agents in a manner that he had previously deferred from? If so - his days are numbered as there is no way Reinsdorf will allow himself to be connected to the issue. That's the way JR works.

Thou speakest truth--JR can stomach incompetence but he won't brook disloyalty.

SSN721
12-09-2003, 09:54 AM
I think it has been shown time and time again that although KW is not always successful with his various "splashes" I think it shows a real effort on his part that he has a commitment to winning and trying to do so under the constraints that JR has him under. I wouldn't hold KW accountable because as was previously stated he does not control the purse-strings and can only use what he is given to field the best team possible. I think he has a fire in him dedicated to winning and does the best he can. I hope this isn't a sign that KW is close to the end of his tenure because I think he has done an admirable job with a limited budget. I hold JR much more accountable because of his self imposed budget on the team.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2003, 01:03 PM
I find it interesting that more and more published newspaper stories on the Sox are working the term "self imposed," into the story especially when talking about the budget and or lenght of contracts. Watch for this term yourself and see how often it comes up. I saw it used twice today (Tuesday)

I think the newspaper guys realize what Williams is up against, I think the majority of these guys feel Kenny is a decent, straightforrward GM and are trying to make sure the reading public knows the score which is why they are starting to use "self imposed."

I'd also go so far as to say that some of them are getting disgusted with the Sox financial mumbo jumbo.

Lip

duke of dorwood
12-09-2003, 01:18 PM
KW will NEVER be fired

bobj4400
12-09-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
KW will NEVER be fired


I dont think he deserves to be...his mistake was taking a job from an owner that is bitter and would rather screw the fans and players than build a winner.

joecrede
12-09-2003, 02:07 PM
Williams is responsible for the Sox being in the payroll situation they're in by signing Konerko and Koch. $14M worth of bad decisions on his part.

washington
12-09-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Irishlawyer
Will KW be held accountable for failing to fulfill his "plan" or is he so much JR's lackey that he is immune?

KW will only be held accountable if he fails to trim the budget to the point Reinsdorf wants it to be to satisfy his investors' goals regarding profit. If he loses 100 games but keeps the payroll in tow he's golden.

Dub25
12-09-2003, 03:06 PM
I think it would be great if KW steps down and during his press conference says something like nobody can put together a serious team with the budget constraints that this ownership puts one under. Would JR finally get the message or is it just wishful thinking on my part?

bc2k
12-09-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Williams is responsible for the Sox being in the payroll situation they're in by signing Konerko and Koch. $14M worth of bad decisions on his part.

I disagree on Koch being KW's fault. The whole reason the Foulke for Koch trade went down was because of payroll issues. Like Magglio, KW knew that Foulke couldn't be resigned after the 2003 season because of the payroll handcuffs he was bound to - handcuffs similar to the ones his sons wore after getting caught stealing radios out of cars.

KW made a lateral trade, talent wise, but upgraded in years of Sox ownership before Koch's free agency.

No reasonable person could expect KW to have foreseen Koch's miserable 2003 or the following year's down free agent market.

Iwritecode
12-09-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I disagree on Koch being KW's fault. The whole reason the Foulke for Koch trade went down was because of payroll issues. Like Magglio, KW knew that Foulke couldn't be resigned after the 2003 season.

I agree. I also think that if Koch would have put up numbers last year that were even remotely close to what he had in 2002, we wouldn't be complaining quite as much.

Same thing with Konerko...

Man Soo Lee
12-09-2003, 03:41 PM
I disagree on Koch being KW's fault. The whole reason the Foulke for Koch trade went down was because of payroll issues. Like Magglio, KW knew that Foulke couldn't be resigned after the 2003 season because of the payroll handcuffs he was bound to...

KW made a lateral trade, talent wise, but upgraded in years of Sox ownership before Koch's free agency.

But even if Koch performed as he had in previous years, that wasn't a "lateral trade, talent wise". Foulke is good, Koch had been mediocre.

That trade helped keep the Sox out of the '03 playoffs and overpaying Koch (even at his previous performance level) will hurt the team in '04.

KW's emphasis on controlling Koch for an extra year was also inconsistent with every other move he made last year. The Colon trade and then the deals for Everett and Alomar were attempts to win in '03.

joecrede
12-09-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I disagree on Koch being KW's fault. The whole reason the Foulke for Koch trade went down was because of payroll issues. Like Magglio, KW knew that Foulke couldn't be resigned after the 2003 season because of the payroll handcuffs he was bound to - handcuffs similar to the ones his sons wore after getting caught stealing radios out of cars.

KW made a lateral trade, talent wise, but upgraded in years of Sox ownership before Koch's free agency.

No reasonable person could expect KW to have foreseen Koch's miserable 2003 or the following year's down free agent market.

Dealing Koch for Foulke was a gamble that I was in favor of at the time. However, there was no reason to sign Koch to a two-year deal instead of letting him go to arbitration. If Koch got too expensive for '04 (had a really good year last year) let him go, allow Marte to close and find a set-up man.

Williams severely misread the market for relievers and first basemen, now he's paying the price.

KingXerxes
12-09-2003, 04:11 PM
I don't blame KW too much for the financial straits of the White Sox. The problem arose when they traded a lot of their younger (and cheaper) talent away in order to get experienced veterans in order to take a run at post-season success. With this planned success, attendance would follow, as would budgetary increases in salary. They gambled a little bit on the future being now.

Unfortunately - the White Sox didn't win anything, and attendance really didn't pick up the way it would have if they we're running away with a division - and that's what killed the plan.

Now here they are - $56 million in payroll - with some overpriced veterans (who they'll have a hell of a time trying to unload) and little - if anything - in a rather depleted farm system.

bc2k
12-09-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
But even if Koch performed as he had in previous years, that wasn't a "lateral trade, talent wise". Foulke is good, Koch had been mediocre.

That trade helped keep the Sox out of the '03 playoffs and overpaying Koch (even at his previous performance level) will hurt the team in '04.

KW's emphasis on controlling Koch for an extra year was also inconsistent with every other move he made last year. The Colon trade and then the deals for Everett and Alomar were attempts to win in '03.

Before the 2003 season I, like most others here, thought Foulke was the better closer than Koch. I'm also sure KW had agreed. That said, it was a virtually lateral trade talent wise, and they were both dominant closers. KW felt that allowing the Sox to retain a dominant closer for an extra year(s) superseded the small loss in talent level. Basically, KW chose two+ seasons of a Rolaids relief winning closer over one season of a slightly better closer.

And your argument about the 'going for it all' theory and how it wasn't consistent in the Koch/Foulke trade is incorrect. You cite two trades that occurred midseason - trades that prove with their timing that the Sox WERE NOT 'going for it all' to start the season. You also fail to mention that those two trades were also made with money acting as the deciding factor, which is CONSISTENT with the Koch/Foulke trade. So if anything, your points about the Alomar and Everett trades further prove my original point: KW made the Koch/Foulke trade because of the financial restrictions he was put under.

Man Soo Lee
12-09-2003, 05:03 PM
Prior to '03, Foulke had been outstanding for four consecutive years. Koch had a solid year for the A's, but was bad his last year in Toronto. To view them as similar players was a mistake.

KW made the Koch/Foulke trade because of the financial restrictions he was put under.

How so? The difference in their salaries last year wasn't huge and Koch will make more than $6 million in '04. That's about what Foulke is being offered and more than quality closers like Guardado and Urbina will get on the open market.

The Colon trade was certainly an effort to "go for it" last year (and a great trade). I would agree that budget restrictions forced KW to enter last year with question marks at 2B and CF. He did have a reasonable expectation of production at those positions based on a strong finish by Jimenez in '02 and $5-million-man Joe Borchard in the minors. The tight budget also forced KW to give up prospects instead of accepting salary in the Everett and Alomar trades.

RedPinStripes
12-09-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Williams is responsible for the Sox being in the payroll situation they're in by signing Konerko and Koch. $14M worth of bad decisions on his part.

Good point there.

Soxfest
12-09-2003, 08:19 PM
95% of what KW says is lie after lie.

MRKARNO
12-09-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
95% of what KW says is lie after lie.

He can only do so much with JR watching every dollar he spends on a box of bic pens drawing up his billion plans for the sox

Daver
12-09-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
95% of what KW says is lie after lie.

When you can substantiate that with some type of proof I might consider giving some credence to your allegation,till then I will file it under "I don't like KW and I will say anything to make him look bad,whether it is true or not."


You have already shown you have no clue as to how the business of baseball works.

bc2k
12-09-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Prior to '03, Foulke had been outstanding for four consecutive years. Koch had a solid year for the A's, but was bad his last year in Toronto. To view them as similar players was a mistake.



How so? The difference in their salaries last year wasn't huge and Koch will make more than $6 million in '04. That's about what Foulke is being offered and more than quality closers like Guardado and Urbina will get on the open market.

The Colon trade was certainly an effort to "go for it" last year (and a great trade). I would agree that budget restrictions forced KW to enter last year with question marks at 2B and CF. He did have a reasonable expectation of production at those positions based on a strong finish by Jimenez in '02 and $5-million-man Joe Borchard in the minors. The tight budget also forced KW to give up prospects instead of accepting salary in the Everett and Alomar trades.

Billy Koch was signed (http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlb/mlbconk.htm ) for $4.25 million for 2003 and for $6.375 for 2004. At the time the contract was signed, Billy Koch was one of the best closers in the league, on the rise, and received a contract according to his market value. I donít believe KW is at fault for paying a dominating closer $5.3125 million per season. Obviously you donít either, as you mention Guardado worthy of his $4.3 million per season recession market salary and Fouke worthy of his estimated $6 million+ salary.

The reason you think Koch is overpaid is because he had a miserable season without admitting that it was a fair contract at the time of the signing. Under this hindsight vision, are you saying that if Guardado tanks in í04 that he was a mistake to sign too? Hindsight is 20/20.

Man Soo Lee
12-10-2003, 02:29 AM
Billy Koch was signed for $4.25 million for 2003 and for $6.375 for 2004. At the time the contract was signed, Billy Koch was one of the best closers in the league, on the rise, and received a contract according to his market value. I donít believe KW is at fault for paying a dominating closer $5.3125 million per season. Obviously you donít either, as you mention Guardado worthy of his $4.3 million per season recession market salary and Fouke worthy of his estimated $6 million+ salary.

In five years as a closer, Foulke has had an ERA under 3.00 five times and a WHIP of 1.0 or less five times.

In the last three years as closer (two full-time), Guardado has had an ERA under 3.00 twice and a WHIP of 1.0 or less three times.

In five years as a closer, Koch has had an ERA under 3.00 once and never had a WHIP below 1.22.

When he was "dominating" in '02, he had a WHIP of 1.27. I counted 50+ relievers with more than 40 IP and a WHIP of less than 1.27 last year.

KW traded away a great reliever, then paid Koch what better pitchers are getting on the open market. It was a bad trade even if Koch performed as expected.

bc2k
12-10-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
In five years as a closer, Foulke has had an ERA under 3.00 five times and a WHIP of 1.0 or less five times.

In the last three years as closer (two full-time), Guardado has had an ERA under 3.00 twice and a WHIP of 1.0 or less three times.

In five years as a closer, Koch has had an ERA under 3.00 once and never had a WHIP below 1.22.

When he was "dominating" in '02, he had a WHIP of 1.27. I counted 50+ relievers with more than 40 IP and a WHIP of less than 1.27 last year.

KW traded away a great reliever, then paid Koch what better pitchers are getting on the open market. It was a bad trade even if Koch performed as expected.

You make good arguments. I might be wrong.