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Lip Man 1
12-09-2003, 02:00 AM
I say this in all sincerity, this is not meant to be sarcastic.

There is one real positive to the Sox losing so many quality players in the last 24 hours.

The fact that everything happened quickly and before the winter meetings means that Kenny Williams knows exactly what holes there are and he can now go to the owner and give him a better idea of how much it will cost to fill them.

At least Williams isn't caught in a guessing game...'Is Colon coming back? I guess we have to be careful and not get this outfielder...' or 'I better have the money to sign Gordon and Sullivan...I guess that means the second baseman we want isn't going to happen,' and so forth.

Now, make no mistake, just because Kenny knows exactly what he needs does not mean he'll be able to do a damn thing but at least he no longer has to wonder.

He's lost or will lose Colon, Alomar, Everett, Sullivan, Graffinino and Gordon (have I missed anybody?). That's a LOT of talent. and
it'll be interesting to see how 'creative' he can get.

In my opinion the Sox right now, in no particular order, badly need a starting pitcher, two reliable bullpen arms, a 2nd baseman, a center fielder, and some bench help. In a perfect world they'd also go out and get a good all around catcher.

Boy that's a lot of holes for a 'contender' even in baseball's weakest division.

We'll see.

Lip

Chisoxfn
12-09-2003, 02:05 AM
Mix that with the fact that before they address those issues they will have to free salary by moving the likes of Konerko, Koch, Ordonez, Jose, and Carlos Lee (Well a group of them).

It seems as if KW has a budget given to him by JR. JR won't let him go above that budget, even if he plans on moving some of the guys later. The only way he was willing to go above that budget is if he was able to sign Colon, to the offer with the deferred money. Since that didn't happen, the Sox now will have to make their moves to free room (Thats what the winter meetings are for) and then hope that the guys they want will be out there.

I'm still in shock that a team in a budget crisis (i'd call it that considering all the money designated to so many few players...mixed with the fact that almots all of that money is being given to position players, minus Koch) would offer a 3yr 15 mill deal for Everyday Eddie. I'd much rather work on getting Rhodes and Benitez at 2.5 mill a piece and have the two of them.

nodiggity59
12-09-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I say this in all sincerity, this is not meant to be sarcastic.

There is one real positive to the Sox losing so many quality players in the last 24 hours.

The fact that everything happened quickly and before the winter meetings means that Kenny Williams knows exactly what holes there are and he can now go to the owner and give him a better idea of how much it will cost to fill them.

At least Williams isn't caught in a guessing game...'Is Colon coming back? I guess we have to be careful and not get this outfielder...' or 'I better have the money to sign Gordon and Sullivan...I guess that means the second baseman we want isn't going to happen,' and so forth.

Now, make no mistake, just because Kenny knows exactly what he needs does not mean he'll be able to do a damn thing but at least he no longer has to wonder.

He's lost or will lose Colon, Alomar, Everett, Sullivan, Graffinino and Gordon (have I missed anybody?). That's a LOT of talent. and
it'll be interesting to see how 'creative' he can get.

In my opinion the Sox right now, in no particular order, badly need a starting pitcher, two reliable bullpen arms, a 2nd baseman, a center fielder, and some bench help. In a perfect world they'd also go out and get a good all around catcher.

Boy that's a lot of holes for a 'contender' even in baseball's weakest division.

We'll see.

Lip

Yeah Lip I see your point(s).

1. If our SP we get isn't a legit #1, then Id like two back end 3-5 starters, even at the expense of the bullpen.

2. The Twins have lost just as much, if not more, talent as we have AND their talent lost is from multi year players, whereas our losses are mostly from 1year pickups (except Graf). Bottom line, anybody we only had for a year can probably be replaced. Or at least thats what I tell myself if Im KW.

Nice thread.

gosox41
12-09-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
Yeah Lip I see your point(s).

1. If our SP we get isn't a legit #1, then Id like two back end 3-5 starters, even at the expense of the bullpen.

2. The Twins have lost just as much, if not more, talent as we have AND their talent lost is from multi year players, whereas our losses are mostly from 1year pickups (except Graf). Bottom line, anybody we only had for a year can probably be replaced. Or at least thats what I tell myself if Im KW.

Nice thread.

I don't think the Twins are going to be as bad off as some think based the moves made so far.

Consider:
1. A ful year of Shannon Stewart. The Twins didn't get hot until Stewart got there.

2. Milton didn't play much of a role last season for a team that won 90 games due to surgery. So how does his loss make the 2003 team weaker then 2003.

3. LaTroy Hawkins- This hurts the Twins the most, no doubt. But it does lead to the next point...

4. AJ Pyrzenski. Losing him will hurt, but Mauer should be a good offensive player for a catcher. Maybe not AJ's #'s right away, but I can see him having a decent OBP. Also, whily losing Hawins hurts, the Rwins did get a very good reliever in the trade of AJ. Maybe not as good as Hawkins, but they did get a good reliable arm.

Bob

cornball
12-09-2003, 08:39 AM
The good news: he knows the holes.

The bad news: he still has no many to fill them and will have to create more holes to fill the new ones, with the budget restrictions he is under.

surfdudes
12-09-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I say this in all sincerity, this is not meant to be sarcastic.

There is one real positive to the Sox losing so many quality players in the last 24 hours.
He's lost or will lose Colon, Alomar, Everett, Sullivan, Graffinino and Gordon (have I missed anybody?). That's a LOT of talent. and
it'll be interesting to see how 'creative' he can get.
We'll see.

Lip


Originally posted by Chisoxfn

I'd much rather work on getting Rhodes and Benitez at 2.5 mill a piece and have the two of them.


Originally posted by nodiggity59


The Twins have lost just as much, if not more, talent as we have AND their talent lost is from multi year players, whereas our losses are mostly from 1year pickups (except Graf). Bottom line, anybody we only had for a year can probably be replaced. Or at least thats what I tell myself if Im KW.

Nice thread.


Originally posted by gosox41


I don't think the Twins are going to be as bad off as some think based the moves made so far.

4. AJ Pyrzenski. Losing him will hurt, but Mauer should be a good offensive player for a catcher. Maybe not AJ's #'s right away, but I can see him having a decent OBP. Also, whily losing Hawins hurts, the Rwins did get a very good reliever in the trade of AJ. Maybe not as good as Hawkins, but they did get a good reliable arm.

Bob

Where are all those people saying Lip is Negative all the time?
Bring me their heads!

Great thread, good points by everone....

Reading all this makes me believe that the team in this division that spends a little money, and gets creative, has a great chance
at stealing the division this year. My hope is that K.W. now has enough space cleared away to make a "splash" in the upcoming weeks. Minnesota will be our nemisis until we find a way to beat them, whether they have the bullpen and depth they had last year, or not. And its a great year for them to start playing their young talent, while the division has no dominant team.
Isn't Mauer coming staight up from AA ball? It will be interesting to see how he works out this year.

Frater Perdurabo
12-09-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by surfdudes
Where are all those people saying Lip is Negative all the time?
Bring me their heads!

Great thread, good points by everone....

Reading all this makes me believe that the team in this division that spends a little money, and gets creative, has a great chance
at stealing the division this year. My hope is that K.W. now has enough space cleared away to make a "splash" in the upcoming weeks. Minnesota will be our nemisis until we find a way to beat them, whether they have the bullpen and depth they had last year, or not. And its a great year for them to start playing their young talent, while the division has no dominant team.
Isn't Mauer coming staight up from AA ball? It will be interesting to see how he works out this year.

I am more interested in some solid moves to plug holes with underrated guys who play hard and well and some moves that turn out to be surprises (i.e. Loaiza) than make a "splash" for the sake of making a "splash."

miker
12-09-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
I am more interested in some solid moves to plug holes with underrated guys who play hard and well and some moves that turn out to be surprises (i.e. Loaiza) than make a "splash" for the sake of making a "splash."

Actually, if you sit back and analyze (say it Hawk!), this is what almost all successful teams end up doing. You have a small core of talent and then try to fill the other spots with what is out there. If the most of the players have career years and the winning becomes infectious, the team goes somewhere. If enough players struggle, then the team sort of limps along and dies before September.

The Marlins had some talent, got lucky acquiring Pudge Rodriquez and then had a couple of their kids (Beckett, Cabrera) go way above and beyond what was expected. Then they get Trader Jack McKeon to light the fire and they went farther then anyone thought they would.

Even the recent Yankees World Series wins were as much a function of their role players, then superstars.

Do we want to win? Then fill in the holes with solid, if unspectacular, players and hope they all click.

surfdudes
12-09-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by miker
Actually, if you sit back and analyze (say it Hawk!), this is what almost all successful teams end up doing. You have a small core of talent and then try to fill the other spots with what is out there. If the most of the players have career years and the winning becomes infectious, the team goes somewhere. If enough players struggle, then the team sort of limps along and dies before September.

The Marlins had some talent, got lucky acquiring Pudge Rodriquez and then had a couple of their kids (Beckett, Cabrera) go way above and beyond what was expected. Then they get Trader Jack McKeon to light the fire and they went farther then anyone thought they would.

Even the recent Yankees World Series wins were as much a function of their role players, then superstars.

Do we want to win? Then fill in the holes with solid, if unspectacular, players and hope they all click.

absolutely... maybe I used the wrong word, "splash" to signify
spending some money on some talent, fill holes, "grinder" type players, etc.... my thinking wasn't for K.W. to go get some waining years, 39 yr old F.A. who's trying to reach some milestone,or some hugh deal, Albert Bell 5 year, 70 Million contract. The splash I am talking about is that there are a few "good" mid tier free agents that would be really helpful to this team, and wouldn't cost a zillion bucks that would shore up the rotation, give us defense, etc..
Sorry for the misuse. Let's just hope K.W. suprises us an makes some moves.

ode to veeck
12-09-2003, 01:38 PM
In my opinion the Sox right now, in no particular order, badly need a starting pitcher, two reliable bullpen arms, a 2nd baseman, a center fielder, and some bench help. In a perfect world they'd also go out and get a good all around catcher

Don't forget a bona fide lead-off man, Robbie filled in to some extent last season, and Kenny Lofton played a healthy 1.5 months in this role the season before, but we haven't had a consistent, qualified lead-off guy in years (Ray Ray couldn't cut it mentally, though he had all the physical tools)