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View Full Version : Alomar Gone - I have a bad feeling (Vina)


jabrch
12-08-2003, 12:26 PM
Nothing will piss me off more than if we sign Vina to play 2B for us next season. I am afraid that is EXACTLY what we are going to end up doing. I'd rather see Willie Harris (and I don't necesarily want him either) get the job - but I have a bad feeling about this.

joecrede
12-08-2003, 12:45 PM
Eric Young or Ronnie Belliard as a right-handed platoon would improve the second base situation some.

TaylorStSox
12-08-2003, 01:33 PM
I'd take Vina in a heartbeat. If he can stay healthy, he's a huge, cheap asset. He's better than Todd Walker's non fielding ass.

jabrch
12-08-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I'd take Vina in a heartbeat. If he can stay healthy, he's a huge, cheap asset. He's better than Todd Walker's non fielding ass.

Are you kidding? I wont rip you until after you take a look at Vina's numbers and repost. Look at avg, obp, slg. Look at games played and check out the injury reports on him. If you still want Vina for 2 years at 2mm per (the reported price Detroit is offering him) then let me know.

TaylorStSox
12-08-2003, 01:38 PM
I know his numbers well and my point still stands. You guys worry about numbers way too much. I care more about the impact a guy has on a team. The cardinals were a much better team with Vina. He's a good ballplayer. We've gone for guys with numbers for too long. It's time to start picking up good players. alla late 90's Yankees.

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2003, 01:47 PM
Im not too familiar with Vina to be honest.

What are his strengths and what is his weakness?

soxnut
12-08-2003, 01:51 PM
I'd like Vina on the Sox. I agree with TaylorSt about the whole numbers thing. I think Vina is a good guy and he's one of the best at going back on a ball. Bring him aboard! :smile:

TaylorStSox
12-08-2003, 01:52 PM
Strengths: Smart player, good baserunner, good glove, fundamentally sound, tough

Weaknesses: Needs a better obp., could walk more, has lost some speed, injury prone over last 2 years

He's worth a risk if you can sign him cheaply.


And, he's a lefty who doesn't strike out very much at all. He's also respected throughout the league.

Bobby Thigpen
12-08-2003, 02:05 PM
With Alomar gone, Vina looks like a pretty good second option. Everyone's right, Vina's numbers betray what a good all around player he is. He's a great fielder, and will do dang near anything to help the team win. He'd be a valuable addition to the Sox.

Rocky Soprano
12-08-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Strengths: Smart player, good baserunner, good glove, fundamentally sound, tough

Weaknesses: Needs a better obp., could walk more, has lost some speed, injury prone over last 2 years

He's worth a risk if you can sign him cheaply.

Thanks for the info.

Sounds like someone I wouldnt mind seeing on the Sox if he comes cheap.

Jerko
12-08-2003, 02:22 PM
Vina gets on base more with HBP's than Harris would all season. I would take Vina in a minute if Wee Willy is our only other choice.

RichH55
12-08-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Strengths: Smart player, good baserunner, good glove, fundamentally sound, tough

Weaknesses: Needs a better obp., could walk more, has lost some speed, injury prone over last 2 years

He's worth a risk if you can sign him cheaply.


And, he's a lefty who doesn't strike out very much at all. He's also respected throughout the league.


Saying Vina needs a better OBP is a bit of an understatement....Like saying a guy with a Hip Replacement could use a little more speed


Vina would make Royce Clayton look good <shudder>

Bottom Line: .309 OBP with Hamstring issues and very much on the wrong side of 30


He's alot closer to being a member of our coaching staff(ozzie and cora) than being a viable everyday player

Especially at 2 million a year

Mammoo
12-08-2003, 02:37 PM
If the offer is 2 Mildo per, I say go for it. I don't hold out much hope for Willie Harris amounting to anything. Granted, FV is a little long in the tooth, but in our weak division the time to strike is now! :smile:

nodiggity59
12-08-2003, 02:41 PM
What I dont get is how Vina is better than Robby.

If he takes a one year deal then I guess it's better but what did Robby want, 3mil? If Vina makes more than 2mil with us ill be upset for losing Robby.

jabrch
12-08-2003, 03:18 PM
OK, here goes

Negatives
A) Injured (hammy)
B) Old (34+)
C) numbers on the decline the past 3 years
D) Hardly ever played 150+ games even when young and healthy (3 times in 10 years)
E) Doesn't get on base enough to lead off (.309 and .333 obp the past two years)
F) Isn't a great baserunner (high rate of CS/SB)
G) Has a terrible moustache


Positives
A) Formerly a gold glover
B) Spunky - a grinder
C) Bruised Albert Belle's elbow once with his chest
D) lots of HBPs (usually top 5 in the league since he stands on top of the plate and reaches over it)
E) Is a lefty
F) Shouldn't cost more than 2mm per.

CubKilla
12-08-2003, 03:25 PM
KW needs for some of the youngsters that he traded for to start contributing because KW has this thing called an ego. Harris will be the 2B to start '04 unless Vina comes with an exceptionally cheap price tag.

TaylorStSox
12-08-2003, 04:42 PM
Getting caught stealing alot doesn't necassarily make you a bad baserunner. I'm sure he got caught up in alot of misplayed hit and runs and similar situations.

Another thing. He takes alot of pitches and he's pure contact. He hardly ever strikes out.

The injuries do worry me but I still have faith in Harris if it came down to it. The "intangibles" he brings to a team are worth the risk for a cheap price.

jabrch
12-08-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Getting caught stealing alot doesn't necassarily make you a bad baserunner. I'm sure he got caught up in alot of misplayed hit and runs and similar situations.

I said he was not a great baserunner. Great baserunners do not get thrown out 50% of the time. Is he a bad baserunner? Probably. LaRussa doesn't hit and run so much that Vina can use that as an excuse.

I'd just hate to see this guy a Sox. .300 obp is not what I want from my leadoff hitter. I am not a stats geek, but that is a bad number for a leadoff hitter under any circumstance.

I-55_Series
12-08-2003, 05:04 PM
As someone who also watches the Cards closely, I would love to watch Vina play for the Sox--Cards letting go of Vina is the end of a marquee era for them. Extremely tough, loves to take it to the small bears, good fit with Jose (Brewer teammates).

I think Vina understands that he'll have to take less in the year after an injury, Robbie competition, etc. A good opportunity for him to improve his OBP and get scored, stack up some runs.

Al in Pilsen/Hyde Park

This is very accurate. . . .
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Strengths: Smart player, good baserunner, good glove, fundamentally sound, tough

Weaknesses: Needs a better obp., could walk more, has lost some speed, injury prone over last 2 years

He's worth a risk if you can sign him cheaply.


And, he's a lefty who doesn't strike out very much at all. He's also respected throughout the league.

RichH55
12-08-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by I-55_Series
As someone who also watches the Cards closely, I would love to watch Vina play for the Sox--Cards letting go of Vina is the end of a marquee era for them. Extremely tough, loves to take it to the small bears, good fit with Jose (Brewer teammates).

I think Vina understands that he'll have to take less in the year after an injury, Robbie competition, etc. A good opportunity for him to improve his OBP and get scored, stack up some runs.

Al in Pilsen/Hyde Park

This is very accurate. . . .

A) The SB thing should at least mitigate base running to average at best....

B) The things that he is "bad" at like getting On-Base and staying healthy are generally very very very important

C) Former Gold Glover...not current....he'd be better than what we have but he doesnt get total points there

D) He has offers around 2 million....unless he really really wants to play here(which would be points in his favor) it doesnt make sense to bring him here


If .309 OBP with pretty good D and a veteran status is all we need....we can do it for less

RichH55
12-08-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Getting caught stealing alot doesn't necassarily make you a bad baserunner. I'm sure he got caught up in alot of misplayed hit and runs and similar situations.

Another thing. He takes alot of pitches and he's pure contact. He hardly ever strikes out.

The injuries do worry me but I still have faith in Harris if it came down to it. The "intangibles" he brings to a team are worth the risk for a cheap price.

Do you have his actual pitches taken numbers or is this just guessing? For a guy who doesnt walk, it makes it harder to "take alot of pitches"

Realist
12-09-2003, 03:17 AM
Every team needs a Rudy Stein. :smile:

Nick@Nite
12-09-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Bruised Albert Belle's elbow once with his chest

I was gonna post that little tidbit... but you beat me to it. :cool: