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Lip Man 1
12-07-2003, 07:34 PM
An excellent piece of writing by Hal. What the Sox have done may be shrewd business but in my opinion, going behind agent's backs in order to sign clients is at best confrontational and at worst unethical. (Not that the Sox have ever cared about what anyone thinks.)

I could excuse this if it was the first time but their reputation in these matters seems to be pretty well known among players, agents and other baseball people.

It might save them a few bucks but I think it does more damage in the long run.

One slight correction. It was Ken Williams who was stood up by A-Rod and Scott Boras, not Ron Schueler. It later came out in the Chicago papers that Reinsdorf had personally contacted A-Rod and requested a meeting without Boras present. A-Rod declined and when the appointed time for the meeting with Williams came they never showed.

As I recall Williams was steamed about it. At the time I posted that Williams should be mad at his boss, not Boras and Rodriguez.

Lip

soxnut
12-07-2003, 08:35 PM
Agents are the worst thing that has happened to professional sports. GM should be able to talk to their own players..the team does pay their salary. Players are a bunch of dummies if they can't make decisions on their own. They already have a union for crying out loud. What a bunch of primandonnas.

duke of dorwood
12-07-2003, 09:01 PM
But agents are the rules. And they are trying to be sneaky-and get caught at it over & over. Just another example of how awful the Reinsdorf years continue to be. It actually forces me to understand why Scott Boras stays away from them

TornLabrum
12-07-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
An excellent piece of writing by Hal. What the Sox have done may be shrewd business but in my opinion, going behind agent's backs in order to sign clients is at best confrontational and at worst unethical. (Not that the Sox have ever cared about what anyone thinks.)

I could excuse this if it was the first time but their reputation in these matters seems to be pretty well known among players, agents and other baseball people.

It might save them a few bucks but I think it does more damage in the long run.

One slight correction. It was Ken Williams who was stood up by A-Rod and Scott Boras, not Ron Schueler. It later came out in the Chicago papers that Reinsdorf had personally contacted A-Rod and requested a meeting without Boras present. A-Rod declined and when the appointed time for the meeting with Williams came they never showed.

As I recall Williams was steamed about it. At the time I posted that Williams should be mad at his boss, not Boras and Rodriguez.

Lip

Thanks for the correction, Lip, not to mention the compliments. I had a feeling I was wrong about that, and you confirmed it.

TornLabrum
12-07-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
Agents are the worst thing that has happened to professional sports. GM should be able to talk to their own players..the team does pay their salary. Players are a bunch of dummies if they can't make decisions on their own. They already have a union for crying out loud. What a bunch of primandonnas.

We all know how well players fared against the owners in the days before the MLBPA and agents, too.

idseer
12-07-2003, 10:54 PM
just read the column. man that's just depressing.

joecrede
12-08-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
An excellent piece of writing by Hal. What the Sox have done may be shrewd business but in my opinion, going behind agent's backs in order to sign clients is at best confrontational and at worst unethical. (Not that the Sox have ever cared about what anyone thinks.)

I could excuse this if it was the first time but their reputation in these matters seems to be pretty well known among players, agents and other baseball people.

It might save them a few bucks but I think it does more damage in the long run.

Lip,

According to the Trib story, Williams offered Alomar 1-yr/$3M back in August. Alomar may not get a better deal. The problem wasn't Williams not talking to the agent. The problem was Williams believing he had anything more than informal talks with Alomar.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2003, 12:52 AM
Joe:

With respect...that doesn't explain the Rodriguez situation does it?

and what Kenny did may have in fact, been off the cuff or exploratory, but Alomar sure didn't see it that way did he? Obviously someone is lying here.

Lip

white sox bill
12-08-2003, 07:25 AM
We can split hairs all day on whether this was unethical or not....these players have to quite taking things personally, this was stricly business on KW/JR. Agent present or not, it was a BUSINESS offer. Whats next, I suppose these primadonnas want someone to wipe their a$$ too!

Since I'm self-employed, I'm less sympothetic towards players. They are in the top 1/10 of one percent of the wage scale. Stop whining...Isn't it a similair analogy that if arrested and the police attempt to get info from you WIITHOUT your lawyer present, does this make them the evil ones? Simply tell them you want your attorney present. No biggie!

When I'm offered a business deal, I don't run to my lawyer all the time. Let these jerk-offs go out and work for a living like the rest of us yahoos!
Bill

joecrede
12-08-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe:

With respect...that doesn't explain the Rodriguez situation does it?

and what Kenny did may have in fact, been off the cuff or exploratory, but Alomar sure didn't see it that way did he? Obviously someone is lying here.

Lip

Lip,

Are you accusing the White Sox of being underhanded in player negotiations?

PaulDrake
12-08-2003, 12:53 PM
WSI has a trifecta of great articles on the home page, Hal's being one of them. This is a poor way to do business, and the Sox have enough problems now, they can't afford to alienate in this way. I know KW is only part of this problem that is organizational in nature but it is one reason why some of us are not crazy about him. I was thinking about that because the fur was flying a little bit on another thread about the relative merits and demerits of our GM.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2003, 01:19 PM
Bill:

You said it yourself...this is business and business should be conducted professionally and ethically at all times.

Athletes are no different then other entertainers or top professionals in ANY field. (i.e. doctors etc...) When it comes time to talk contract with those type of individuals you do it with a lawyer or agent present.

That's the way the system operates for the best of the best.

I'm not trying to put you down but a small business owner in my opinion isn't the same situation as an individual who's talents are so good that people pay money to see them do what they do.

It's the same for Barry Bonds, Dan Rather, Jay Mariotti, Sean Connery. that's the way it works.

Lip

joecrede
12-08-2003, 01:26 PM
What Alomar was really bothered by was that the $3M offer was no longer on the table. It wasn't that KW made this offer before he consulted Alomar's agent. I'm pretty sure had Williams offered Alomar $10M without consulting his agent, Alomar would have signed and we never would know about this.

Who knows? Maybe this was how Konerko got "cornered" in to signing his deal last year.

daveeym
12-08-2003, 02:37 PM
I fail to see what's unethical about these situations. It may not be the best business practice based on the current state of agents, players and owners in the game but I hardly view it as unethical. Especially with veteran players such as Robbie and A-Rod.

Maybe if this occurred with a young, latino or japanese player that had problems speaking and understanding english I'd agree. But cutting through the muck of attorneys and offering your position directly to your employee is not unethical. Perhaps shady if they've already been directed to talk to their agent only, but that's about it. As an attorney, I've seen clients and the parties they are negotiaing with often negotiate directly when it appears attorney discourse is getting in the way even after suit has been filed. Ultimately it is the clients, I.E. PLAYERS, decision to accept a contract and not the agents or attorneys. Agents/attorneys are there to advise and take care of the actual legal work - drafting of the contract etc.

Lip Man 1
12-08-2003, 07:39 PM
Dave:

Given the Sox less then stellar reputation among players and agents, don't you think its in their best interest not to even appear to be doing something "shady?"

Like I said Williams may not have been doing anything wrong but Alomar perceived it as being so...and you can bet that the word is going to get around pretty quickly and probably be misconstrued to the detrement of the team.

Lip

Johnny Mostil
12-08-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Athletes are no different then other entertainers or top professionals in ANY field. (i.e. doctors etc...) When it comes time to talk contract with those type of individuals you do it with a lawyer or agent present.

I've always been struck how nobody will bitch about other entertainers' salaries and agents, but seemingly everybody will do so for professional athletes.