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Soxfest
12-07-2003, 04:30 PM
Go you are so over your head it is not funny , lets get a real GM

Daver
12-07-2003, 04:38 PM
Was there supposed to be a point to this?

CubKilla
12-07-2003, 04:40 PM
I've been advocating this since '02. But it seems alot of Sox fans enjoy a GM that gets owned during trade talks. What do I know?

Soxfest
12-07-2003, 05:41 PM
Point is KW is not what this team needs anymore

Daver
12-07-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
Point is KW is not what this team needs anymore

Care to elaborate on that?

idseer
12-07-2003, 05:54 PM
there was a time i felt kw WAS in way over his head. but the last year or 2 i believe he's done pretty well considering who his boss is. maybe better than pretty well. he's made some bad mistakes, but you can't ignore the good moves he's made and i believe a chart would show he's gotten better as he's gone along.

i think he deserves to stay aboard. for now anyway.

Gumshoe
12-07-2003, 06:05 PM
"Can't ignore the good moves"????????????????????

I just find it absolutely hysterical that people on here support this guy at ALL. I love especially that "he tries." ha! What a joke.

Continually making moves that cost us the division, or inability to make moves that lead to the division crown, whichever you prefer, make me EASILY forget any "good moves". Moves are good when you win your division. That's it. When guys settle for guys who "try" I really am skeptical that they are real White Sox fans.

We've been "trying" for 40+ years now! Let's DO

Gumshoe

CHISOXFAN13
12-07-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
Point is KW is not what this team needs anymore


So everyone advocationg a KW firing certainly must have a name who can replace him and succeed in fielding a championship level team with a 58 million dollar payroll.

idseer
12-07-2003, 06:22 PM
what we need somewhere here is a chart ... a breakdown of all kw's moves since he took control. i'd really like to see some kind of list and let's weigh things good vs bad to along with a time chart to see improvement.

anyone here have the wherewithal to do that?

Soxfest
12-07-2003, 06:38 PM
It is not my fault KW wasted 5 mil of a supposed 58 mil budget, he cuts offer to RA which is fine but gives 5 mil to JV like it is nothing. As far as a name I like P.Gillick but anyone with a pulse would dam near be an upgrade, KW has done nothing to warrant still being here.

Dub25
12-07-2003, 06:45 PM
I'm not saying I'm the biggest KW fan but I have a feeling if Schu was still the GM he would've recieved the memo from JR about keeping the payroll at 60M and would've started rebuilding with the first move being trading Mags and Carlos. So I'm going to wait until the end of January to see what KW comes up with while working with budget restrictions.

Daver
12-07-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
It is not my fault KW wasted 5 mil of a supposed 58 mil budget, he cuts offer to RA which is fine but gives 5 mil to JV like it is nothing. As far as a name I like P.Gillick but anyone with a pulse would dam near be an upgrade, KW has done nothing to warrant still being here.

So basically what you are saying is that you have no idea how the business of baseball works,but you feel you are in a position to critique someone who does.

Soxfest
12-07-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Daver
So basically what you are saying is that you have no idea how the business of baseball works,but you feel you are in a position to critique someone who does.


I understand the business fine Daver, enough to know the BS budget **** is a joke if things were so bad JR would of sold long ago and ticket prices have rose about every year and if you think KW knows what he is doing that is fine, that is your opinion, mine is he blows.

Brian26
12-07-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I've been advocating this since '02. But it seems alot of Sox fans enjoy a GM that gets owned during trade talks. What do I know?

Not much apparently. Kenny's trade to acquire Colon last winter ranks as one of the best trades this organization has ever pulled off.

Soxfest
12-07-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Not much apparently. Kenny's trade to acquire Colon last winter ranks as one of the best trades this organization has ever pulled off.

And the T.Ritchie deal was one of the worst this organization has ever pulled off.

Daver
12-07-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
I understand the business fine Daver, enough to know the BS budget **** is a joke if things were so bad JR would of sold long ago and ticket prices have rose about every year and if you think KW knows what he is doing that is fine, that is your opinion, mine is he blows.

The budget he is working under has nothing to do with picking up Valentin's option,but thanx for proving that you do not understand how the business works.

Soxfest
12-07-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The budget he is working under has nothing to do with picking up Valentin's option,but thanx for proving that you do not understand how the business works.


Enlighten us all.

Daver
12-07-2003, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
Enlighten us all.

Enlighten you to what?

You know how the business works,you said so yourself.

idseer
12-07-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
And the T.Ritchie deal was one of the worst this organization has ever pulled off.

only in retrospect. there were a lot of people here who liked that deal at the time. and a lot more who didn't have strong feelings about it.

jordan23ventura
12-07-2003, 07:35 PM
Todd Ritchie? So what? Name one GM who hasn't made one bad trade. There's nothing wrong w/ KW. The guy does what he can, bottom line. Kenny isn't the problem here.

Soxfest
12-07-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Enlighten you to what?

You know how the business works,you said so yourself.


So when I read Sox are trying to get teams to take JV salary in any potential deal ( IE Konerko deal ) to stay in the there self imposed budget restraints, but you say that is not true because JV salary does not count in the team overall budget. :?:

RedPinStripes
12-07-2003, 07:39 PM
I thought KW was an idiot the first year or so, but if you look at the moves he's made the last year and a half, it looks pretty good to me. His cheap ass boss is the one who's making his job real tough. It would have been a lot easier to keep Alomar, Colon, and Everet if Jerry didnt squeeze a quarter till the eagle screams. Last year's team should have taken that division easily. It wasnt the players he picked up. Their bats did die, but the manager ****ed up a lot of games and KW probably ahould have fired him at the break. I'll bet JR had something to do with that. The farm is a lot stronger , he makes aggressive moves that Schu would never make, and he hasnt gotten screwed on a deal since the Ritchie deal. Yeah, a few trades really sucked, but how would you do as a first year GM? KW is not my problem in the organization. It's Uncle Jerry and the other stock holders who wont give him money to work with. Maybe if fans saw a payroll jump from teh start and a hot team out of the gate there might be a jump in attendance?

"If you build it they will come".....................

cornball
12-07-2003, 07:41 PM
Actually I like KW. He has the balls to make deals and you know he wants to win. The budget constraints are killing him. He wants to win.

I think he will give us his best effort, I cant wait to see how he trys to handle this mess.

Daver
12-07-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
So when I read Sox are trying to get teams to take JV salary in any potential deal ( IE Konerko deal ) to stay in the there self imposed budget restraints, but you say that is not true because JV salary does not count in the team overall budget. :?:

I did not say that,and do not put words in my mouth,I don't appreciate it.

You are the one that said you know how this business works,yet you have no clue to why Valentin's option was picked up.

OEO Magglio
12-07-2003, 08:15 PM
Kenny is not the problem with this team, and he never has been, since the first year he has been year he's put teams on the field that could have and should have won the AL Central, KW has done his job during his years as gm, others have not.

Soxfest
12-07-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The budget he is working under has nothing to do with picking up Valentin's option,but thanx for proving that you do not understand how the business works.


You say above "The budget he is working under has nothing to do with picking up Valentin's option" In the paper it says due to the budget restraints they have to trade JV 5 million dollar salary in any potential deal, so I say the picking up of his option does have something to do with the budget he is working on, I did not put words in your mouth and quoted you, I hope you appreciate that.

Daver
12-07-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
You say above "The budget he is working under has nothing to do with picking up Valentin's option" In the paper it says due to the budget restraints they have to trade JV 5 million dollar salary in any potential deal, so I say the picking up of his option does have something to do with the budget he is working on, I did not put words in your mouth and quoted you, I hope you appreciate that.

I don't give a rats ass what it says in the paper,it doesn't change the fact that I never said picking up Jose's option had anything to do with the budget,and you implyed that I did.

Get your facts straight.

And the fact remains that you still have no clue as to why Kenny picked up Jose's option,yet you choose to harp on it like you understand how the business of baseball works,when in reality,you don't.

Do yourself a favor and read the CBA,it may enlighten you a little.

MarkEdward
12-07-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
So everyone advocationg a KW firing certainly must have a name who can replace him and succeed in fielding a championship level team with a 58 million dollar payroll.

Paul Depodesta.

munchman33
12-07-2003, 09:49 PM
While I haven't always been a fan of Kenny's moves, I have to say I admire the man. He has an immense sense of the accountability that his job entails. I remember when the Sox were in a real bad stretch in the middle of last season, and for about a week Kenny would come into the stands and view the game from different sections around the ballpark. He had no problem talking to anyone who had an opinion about his moves, and even welcomed feedback on what they think should be done.

Incidently, he also had no problem finding a seat. :smile:

MisterB
12-07-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Paul Depodesta.

Why is it assumed that the assistant to a good GM will be a good GM himself? I mean, Ron Schueler was Sandy Alderson's assistant and he was nowhere near as good as Alderson was.

gosox41
12-07-2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Enlighten you to what?

You know how the business works,you said so yourself.

I'm kind of jumping in the middle of this, but I'd like to be enlightened. I think I know a little something about this business, especially when compared to some of the stuff I read here about all these outlandish claims about about JR's finances.

Bob

gosox41
12-07-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I don't give a rats ass what it says in the paper,it doesn't change the fact that I never said picking up Jose's option had anything to do with the budget,and you implyed that I did.

Get your facts straight.

And the fact remains that you still have no clue as to why Kenny picked up Jose's option,yet you choose to harp on it like you understand how the business of baseball works,when in reality,you don't.

Do yourself a favor and read the CBA,it may enlighten you a little.


Daver, I want to hear your opinion on this. But all I see is going back and forth with you not even addressing this issue of Valentin.

I'm just curious.

Bob

Daver
12-07-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I'm kind of jumping in the middle of this, but I'd like to be enlightened. I think I know a little something about this business, especially when compared to some of the stuff I read here about all these outlandish claims about about JR's finances.

Bob

What do you want to know Bob?

CubKilla
12-07-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Not much apparently. Kenny's trade to acquire Colon last winter ranks as one of the best trades this organization has ever pulled off.

Do I need to get into all of the boneheaded moves/trades KW has his fingerprints all over? But he tries so all is forgiven .

But I do agree with the majority of posters here which stated that JR is the real problem..... not KW. If we had a real owner committed to winning maybe we'd have a real GM.

Frank the Tank
12-07-2003, 10:54 PM
Lets not forget that Kenny Williams is a GM, not a magician. I don't care who the GM is, expecting a person to assemble a championship team with a $58 MM payroll is not fair. IMO, the White Sox are screwed no matter who the GM is until a salary cap is installed by Major League Baseball. Then we will all be screwed because it will definitely mean another strike.

doublem23
12-08-2003, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
IMO, the White Sox are screwed no matter who the GM is until a salary cap is installed by Major League Baseball.

I'll settle for not having a cheap-ass owner.

serena
12-08-2003, 03:15 AM
But what are the other payrolls in the AL Central? They aren't much above the Sox if at all! It's not like we have to compete with the Yankees first off. Win the division and go from there.

At least try to win the division.

gosox41
12-08-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by Daver
What do you want to know Bob?

Your were talking about why Valentin was brought back and had referred to the CBA in the same post. I was wondering what the connection was. If I misinterpreted what you wrote, then just tell me why you think the Sox brought Valentin back at $5 mill per.

Bob

Dadawg_77
12-08-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
Why is it assumed that the assistant to a good GM will be a good GM himself? I mean, Ron Schueler was Sandy Alderson's assistant and he was nowhere near as good as Alderson was.

But so was Billy Beane

Paul may or may not make a great GM, but he has the experience and knowledge on how a small payroll team should be ran. He is major part of the team headed by Beane which has produced one of baseball winiest teams and cheapest teams. While I nor can anyone else guarantee success with him, I believe he can do a better job then Kenny.

Dadawg_77
12-08-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Daver
What do you want to know Bob?

I think he wants to know why you think Jose was brought back. I was under the impression the Jose agree to take a lower salary in previous years and the Sox agreed to pick up the option. Also the fact that Jose sat out some games at the end and Sox didn't want to be perceived as benching so his option wouldn't vest. That perception would hurt the Sox negotiating abilities in the future as others would put less credibility into what the Sox told they would do in the future.

Daver
12-08-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I think he wants to know why you think Jose was brought back. I was under the impression the Jose agree to take a lower salary in previous years and the Sox agreed to pick up the option. Also the fact that Jose sat out some games at the end and Sox didn't want to be perceived as benching so his option wouldn't vest. That perception would hurt the Sox negotiating abilities in the future as others would put less credibility into what the Sox told they would do in the future.

His option was picked up because if it wasn't it would be the equivilent of non tendering him,at making it impossible to re-sign until May 1st of 2004.Kenny could not afford to do that without a suitable replacement,and the FA market is not strong on SS this year that will agree to 5 mil or less.

Daver
12-08-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by serena
But what are the other payrolls in the AL Central? They aren't much above the Sox if at all! It's not like we have to compete with the Yankees first off. Win the division and go from there.

At least try to win the division.

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

Soxfest
12-08-2003, 06:30 PM
To sign JV back at 5 million is a joke, there are plenty of less inexpensive options and you never know what you can get until you try. The Miles / Uribe trade could of happened anytime and could of been done well in advance of picking up JV option.

Frater Perdurabo
12-08-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
To sign JV back at 5 million is a joke, there are plenty of less inexpensive options and you never know what you can get until you try. The Miles / Uribe trade could of happened anytime and could of been done well in advance of picking up JV option.

Don't be so sure. Colorado may have had a deal for Uribe cooking with another team that fell apart. The trade with the Sox for Miles may have been their second option. We don't know with certainty that Kenny wasn't working on this deal earlier.