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View Full Version : Operation: Demoralize the Fandom


Viva Magglio
12-06-2003, 08:30 PM
That is what I am calling our off-season effort. The White Sox have done nothing short but go out of their way to alienate us. Sure, the firing of Jerry Manuel and hiring of Ozzie Guillen was pleasing to at least some of us. The ballpark renovations have also been a source of positive feelings. However, just about everything else has been frustrating.

I seriously wonder what on earth the White Sox powers that be use for a brain. First of all, they proclaim that they are shopping our team's best player in Mágglio Ordóńez because they are basically too cheap to pay him the money he deserves. On top of all that, they show no proactive interest in putting together a team to put us past Minnesota and get us into the playoffs. Sure, there are the talks with the Dodgers to trade Paul Konerko for Odalis Perez, but I do not think that move alone will push us over the top.

Among all the other things, we now have the Roberto Alomar situation. In my opinion, the White Sox are low-balling him big time. Sure he is past his prime, but Roberto's presence in the clubhouse and infield was an asset in the second half of the season.

On top of all the ways the White Sox are trying to downgrade personnel in the interest of being cheapskates, they have the nerve to actually ask us to pay MORE money in 2004. I am a split-season ticket holder, and I received my invoice this week. I cannot believe they want me to pay more money for a product that figures to be crap. What planet are these dopes on??? Right now, I am seriously considering not renewing my package. My finances are tight, and I don't need to be blowing away more money on inferior baseball.

And as if this isn't all bad enough, we notice that the ballclub on the other side of town is trying to UPGRADE the playoff team it was in 2003. UPGRADE!!! Talk about salt on an open wound, for Christ's sake!!! If you thought 2003 was hard for us to endure with the Cubs winning and us not winning, I fear it will be nothing compared to 2004!!! This White Sox organization has gone out of its damn way to hand whatever we have left in this town to the Cubs on a damn silver platter!!!

The dual philosophy of incompetence and cheapness has been the real reason we don't get where we want to be. We are a major market franchise here in Chicago, but the belief among White Sox brass is that we're Pittsburgh. If the White Sox keep this nonsense up, they can kiss my split-season ticket account goodbye!!!

That does not mean I will stop being a White Sox fan, and I plan to going to games in 2004. In fact, I was a White Sox fan before the powers that be came, and I plan on being a White Sox fan long after the powers that be are gone (knock on wood). In the meantime, we have to live in this quagmire of demoralization.

Chisox_cali
12-06-2003, 09:12 PM
How bout before that we go forward on Operation: Calm the hell down and wait until the damn off-season is actually over.

Besides the Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs. Nobody has made a move yet. It's not like all 29 teams except the White Sox have made all these moves to improve themselves, but it sure sounds like it to some people....

It's these same people that seemed like they were calling the 2003 offseason a failure in July. I really want to know where some of you guys gained that power to see into the future cause I would love to know some Lotto Numbers.

Daver
12-06-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
I really want to know where some of you guys gained that power to see into the future cause I would love to know some Lotto Numbers.

They use a Magic 8 Ball.

I asked it about the lottery for you,it said check back later.


:)

duke of dorwood
12-06-2003, 09:22 PM
No calming down here-I'm not young as some of you and have endured much more. We can see the Reinsdorf game plan of watchful waiting, while the real quality additions get moved or resigned. The Cubs moved quickly, and got quality additions without losing a thing. There's NO EXCUSE for the game they are playing with the fans. Crying broke, cutting payroll, and raising prices. The time to show we dont accept this IS NOW.

Chisox_cali
12-06-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Daver
They use a Magic 8 Ball.

I asked it about the lottery for you,it said check back later.


:)

Isn't that always the case....

nasox
12-06-2003, 10:04 PM
while i dont see this happening in the near future, JR better not be planning to move the team in 10-15 years (of course he will be deasd by then and will hopefully have sold the team). I dont want another late 80s saga to go on again.

chisox06
12-06-2003, 10:44 PM
I guess the thing that bothers me the most is the raising of ticket prices, and the lowering of payroll. That really doesn't sit right with me.

Frank the Tank
12-07-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by nasox
while i dont see this happening in the near future, JR better not be planning to move the team in 10-15 years (of course he will be deasd by then and will hopefully have sold the team). I dont want another late 80s saga to go on again.

I don't think Major League Baseball would allow JR to move the White Sox out of Chicago. Besides, he owes way to much money on the "new" ballpark. Does anybody know how close USCF is to being paid off?

soxnut
12-07-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
How bout before that we go forward on Operation: Calm the hell down and wait until the damn off-season is actually over.

Besides the Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs. Nobody has made a move yet. It's not like all 29 teams except the White Sox have made all these moves to improve themselves, but it sure sounds like it to some people....

It's these same people that seemed like they were calling the 2003 offseason a failure in July. I really want to know where some of you guys gained that power to see into the future cause I would love to know some Lotto Numbers.



You got that right bud. Some of these people need to take a chill pill. The Sox rarely make a move until late December and then another in late January.

gosox41
12-07-2003, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
That is what I am calling our off-season effort. The White Sox have done nothing short but go out of their way to alienate us. Sure, the firing of Jerry Manuel and hiring of Ozzie Guillen was pleasing to at least some of us. The ballpark renovations have also been a source of positive feelings. However, just about everything else has been frustrating.

I seriously wonder what on earth the White Sox powers that be use for a brain. First of all, they proclaim that they are shopping our team's best player in Mágglio Ordóńez because they are basically too cheap to pay him the money he deserves. On top of all that, they show no proactive interest in putting together a team to put us past Minnesota and get us into the playoffs. Sure, there are the talks with the Dodgers to trade Paul Konerko for Odalis Perez, but I do not think that move alone will push us over the top.

Among all the other things, we now have the Roberto Alomar situation. In my opinion, the White Sox are low-balling him big time. Sure he is past his prime, but Roberto's presence in the clubhouse and infield was an asset in the second half of the season.

On top of all the ways the White Sox are trying to downgrade personnel in the interest of being cheapskates, they have the nerve to actually ask us to pay MORE money in 2004. I am a split-season ticket holder, and I received my invoice this week. I cannot believe they want me to pay more money for a product that figures to be crap. What planet are these dopes on??? Right now, I am seriously considering not renewing my package. My finances are tight, and I don't need to be blowing away more money on inferior baseball.

And as if this isn't all bad enough, we notice that the ballclub on the other side of town is trying to UPGRADE the playoff team it was in 2003. UPGRADE!!! Talk about salt on an open wound, for Christ's sake!!! If you thought 2003 was hard for us to endure with the Cubs winning and us not winning, I fear it will be nothing compared to 2004!!! This White Sox organization has gone out of its damn way to hand whatever we have left in this town to the Cubs on a damn silver platter!!!

The dual philosophy of incompetence and cheapness has been the real reason we don't get where we want to be. We are a major market franchise here in Chicago, but the belief among White Sox brass is that we're Pittsburgh. If the White Sox keep this nonsense up, they can kiss my split-season ticket account goodbye!!!

That does not mean I will stop being a White Sox fan, and I plan to going to games in 2004. In fact, I was a White Sox fan before the powers that be came, and I plan on being a White Sox fan long after the powers that be are gone (knock on wood). In the meantime, we have to live in this quagmire of demoralization.

Just a couple of quick points:

1> You may thin kKW is low balling Robarto Alomar, but if you really consider his offensive numbers, I don' t think it's that bad. In today's economic environement he is not worth $6 mill over 2 years.

2. Give KW a chance. He is not afraid to pull off a big move to try to put the team over the op. His problem is when he usually makes a big trade he's usually on the losing end. It's early in the offseason. KW has plenty of time to at least try to field a winner. Hopefully he won't screw it up again.

Bob

gosox41
12-07-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
How bout before that we go forward on Operation: Calm the hell down and wait until the damn off-season is actually over.

Besides the Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs. Nobody has made a move yet. It's not like all 29 teams except the White Sox have made all these moves to improve themselves, but it sure sounds like it to some people....

It's these same people that seemed like they were calling the 2003 offseason a failure in July. I really want to know where some of you guys gained that power to see into the future cause I would love to know some Lotto Numbers.


The season was a failure in July. In fact the whole season was a failure. During the first half of the seaosn the Sox had one of the top 3/4 ERA's in the AL Central, but were at one point 8 games under .500. Why? The team hitt a collective .241 with a .315 OBP. Without going through a game by game synopsis, if the team had a .325 OBP (still below league average) then they probably would have won at least 5 more games during the first half and hence won the division. The teams strong point was it's offense. Funny how when everything else was clicking this disappears for 87 games.

Bob

gosox41
12-07-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by chisox06
I guess the thing that bothers me the most is the raising of ticket prices, and the lowering of payroll. That really doesn't sit right with me.

Right not the Sox payroll stands at about $6 mill. more then 2003.

Bob

thezeker
12-07-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!

And as if this isn't all bad enough, we notice that the ballclub on the other side of town is trying to UPGRADE the playoff team it was in 2003. UPGRADE!!! Talk about salt on an open wound, for Christ's sake!!! If you thought 2003 was hard for us to endure with the Cubs winning and us not winning, I fear it will be nothing compared to 2004!!! This White Sox organization has gone out of its damn way to hand whatever we have left in this town to the Cubs on a damn silver platter!!!

The dual philosophy of incompetence and cheapness has been the real reason we don't get where we want to be. We are a major market franchise here in Chicago, but the belief among White Sox brass is that we're Pittsburgh. If the White Sox keep this nonsense up, they can kiss my split-season ticket account goodbye!!!



Let me do the arithmetic.

Club on North Side draws almost 3 million fans.
Club on South Side draws 1.9 million fans.

Club on North Side spends more money because fans actually support their team and go out to the ballpark.
What a concept!!! Actually go to the ballpark and support your team and the owners spend more money to upgrade their team. I think that is the way business is supposed to work.

When we drew 2.9 million we had one of the highest payrolls in baseball and one of the best teams. We will continue to have a hard time competing with the Cubs as long as the fans look for reasons to stay away from the "cell".

Reinsdorf is no saint and has made a hell of a lot of mistakes but it cuts both ways.

YOU'VE GOT TO GIVE A LITTLE TO GET A LITTLE!

TornLabrum
12-07-2003, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by thezeker
Reinsdorf is no saint and has made a hell of a lot of mistakes but it cuts both ways.

YOU'VE GOT TO GIVE A LITTLE TO GET A LITTLE!

And Reinsdorf has given what?

soxnut
12-07-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And Reinsdorf has given what?

Well all I know is that when fans ere showing up in the early 90's we had-good consistent-competitve teams. When fans stopped showing up because of the strike, we haven't had it on a consistent basis. The pendulum swings both ways, but I still blame the fans more.....sorry :(:

gosox41
12-07-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
Well all I know is that when fans ere showing up in the early 90's we had-good consistent-competitve teams. When fans stopped showing up because of the strike, we haven't had it on a consistent basis. The pendulum swings both ways, but I still blame the fans more.....sorry :(:

The Sox had a top 5 payroll team in '93-'94. That should show something about JR's willingness to spend what he has. Drawing 2.9 mill makes it a lot easier to raise the payroll.

Bob

chisox06
12-07-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Right not the Sox payroll stands at about $6 mill. more then 2003.

Bob

ok, let me rephrase that. The Sox putting some of their top players on the trading block, offering Alomar a laughable amount, not resigning Colon/Gordon, and raising ticket prices doesnt sit well with me.

jeremyb1
12-07-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
ok, let me rephrase that. The Sox putting some of their top players on the trading block, offering Alomar a laughable amount, not resigning Colon/Gordon, and raising ticket prices doesnt sit well with me.

That's how baseball works for 95% of the teams. If you develop a team that's good you can't possibly afford to keep all the players. Even the Braves were forced to trade Millwood, arguably their best pitcher on an outstanding staff last season, because as players progress they make a lot of money. Maggs went from making the league minimum 300,000 early in his career to 14 million this season. 13,700,000 is an enourmous amount of money. To argue that the club is obligated to pay whatever it takes to keep all the players is ludicrous because that could make the budget enormous. Regardless of how cheap JR is there's no way to convince me this organization can afford a 100 million plus payroll. The revenue just isn't there.

Daver
12-07-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Regardless of how cheap JR is there's no way to convince me this organization can afford a 100 million plus payroll. The revenue just isn't there.

When you can prove that I might beleive it,till then I will remain skeptical.

jeremyb1
12-07-2003, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
First of all, they proclaim that they are shopping our team's best player in Mágglio Ordóńez because they are basically too cheap to pay him the money he deserves. On top of all that, they show no proactive interest in putting together a team to put us past Minnesota and get us into the playoffs. Sure, there are the talks with the Dodgers to trade Paul Konerko for Odalis Perez, but I do not think that move alone will push us over the top.

Among all the other things, we now have the Roberto Alomar situation. In my opinion, the White Sox are low-balling him big time. Sure he is past his prime, but Roberto's presence in the clubhouse and infield was an asset in the second half of the season.


Maggs really just isn't worth 14 million a season and Robbie definitely isn't worth 3 million a season. Winning is the idea right? The best way to win is to have the most efficient payroll. Guys like Loaiza, Garland, and Buehrle help make the payroll efficient because they make huge contributions and don't make too much money. Guys like Maggs who make big contributions but carry huge salaries and guys like Alomar who are below average run producers yet make millions do not help us put together a winning team on a budget.

As far as a lack of moves this offseason, we acquired Uribe which while that's a small move is more than a lot of clubs have done. Look around the league. Toronto, Baltimore, Tampa Bay, Texas, Cleveland, Detroit, Atlanta, Montreal, the Mets, Houston, St. Louis, Pittsburg, Cinci, LA, Colorado, and San Diego have all failed to make major moves so far this offseason. That's over half of baseball. Free agents can't be signed until tommorow without giving up draft picks and non-tenders will severly alter the market. That's the way things are. None of this is unique to the White Sox.

jeremyb1
12-07-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Daver
When you can prove that I might beleive it,till then I will remain skeptical.

Maybe I should rephrase that. There's no way you can convince me anyone exists who would own this club and authorize a 100 million dollar payroll.

Daver
12-07-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Maybe I should rephrase that. There's no way you can convince me anyone exists who would own this club and authorize a 100 million dollar payroll.

The simple math I did in my last column speculates that the Sox bring in 77 million from stadium revenue alone,not including anything else,and I feel that it was a low estimate.

I could easily see an owner that wanted to win first and foremost approving a 100 mil payroll if he knew his walk up revenue would do nothing but improve on 77 million,especially if his lease called for him to pay nothing in rent if it didn't.

Face it Jeremy,Jerry Reinsdorf is in this for his bottom line,nothing more and nothing less.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2003, 08:26 PM
San Diego re-signed Beck yesterday...one year at a little over 1.2 million.

Lip

jeremyb1
12-07-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The simple math I did in my last column speculates that the Sox bring in 77 million from stadium revenue alone,not including anything else,and I feel that it was a low estimate.

I could easily see an owner that wanted to win first and foremost approving a 100 mil payroll if he knew his walk up revenue would do nothing but improve on 77 million,especially if his lease called for him to pay nothing in rent if it didn't.

Face it Jeremy,Jerry Reinsdorf is in this for his bottom line,nothing more and nothing less.

Baseball Owners don't tend to do that though. They're greedy and they're out to turn a big profit.

Daver
12-07-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Baseball Owners don't tend to do that though. They're greedy and they're out to turn a big profit.

Jerry Coangelo built a winner by tossing profit out the window.

George Steinbrennar uses the money he makes from the YES network to spit in Bud's face and pay the luxury tax to field a winner.

Stereotyping is not going to win your argument.


The fact remains what I pointed out in the first place.

Hangar18
12-08-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by thezeker
Let me do the arithmetic.

Club on North Side draws almost 3 million fans.
Club on South Side draws 1.9 million fans.

Club on North Side spends more money because fans actually support their team and go out to the ballpark.
What a concept!!! Actually go to the ballpark and support your team and the owners spend more money to upgrade their team. I think that is the way business is supposed to work.

Reinsdorf is no saint and has made a hell of a lot of mistakes but it cuts both ways.

YOU'VE GOT TO GIVE A LITTLE TO GET A LITTLE!

Club on northside goes to Drink at the park and hang out, Baseball is beside the point. "supporting" the team isnt the reason they go to that dump ...... So no more Implying they have the "most loyal" fans. Theres a FINELINE between
Being Loyal and Being Stupid, and I think Cub Fans have been looking at Said Line in the Rearview Mirror since the 1960's.

Iwritecode
12-08-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I don't think Major League Baseball would allow JR to move the White Sox out of Chicago. Besides, he owes way to much money on the "new" ballpark. Does anybody know how close USCF is to being paid off?

JR doesn't own the park. He pays rent on it.

The catch is that he only has to pay rent if the attendance goes above a certain figure. I believe the number is just below 2 million and they only count "full-price" tickets. That means 1/2 price Mondays don't count.

Last year was the first time he had to pay rent in years. So obviously, he has an incentive to NOT fill the ballpark every year.

The movie "Major League" had pretty much the same idea. Only in the movie, the incentive was a new stadium in a new city.

joecrede
12-08-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Last year was the first time he had to pay rent in years. So obviously, he has an incentive to NOT fill the ballpark every year.

The rent is a percentage on every full-price ticket sold above a certain amount ($1.5M?). Paying no rent is not an incentive to keeping ticket sales down.

KingXerxes
12-08-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
So obviously, he has an incentive to NOT fill the ballpark every year.

This is not exactly true. Reinsdorf would love to draw 4 million fans next year (and every year for that matter). Sure he would pay more in rent, but his bottom line would be larger as well. The stadium authority simply starts taking a cut of each incremental dollar at a certain point.

Iwritecode
12-08-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by joecrede The rent is a percentage on every full-price ticket sold above a certain amount ($1.5M?). Paying no rent is not an incentive to keeping ticket sales down.

It is to someone who doesn't like to spend money. If he can get something for free, why wouldn't he?


Originally posted by KingXerxes
This is not exactly true. Reinsdorf would love to draw 4 million fans next year (and every year for that matter). Sure he would pay more in rent, but his bottom line would be larger as well. The stadium authority simply starts taking a cut of each incremental dollar at a certain point.

Well, that's an extreme example but I don't exactly think the attendance is going to increase by more than 2 million in one year. Hell, I doubt it will even increase by more than 1 million in one year even if he did raise the payroll.

So unless he can figure out a way to do that short of building a new staduim, his best bet is to put a mid-level team on the field, hope they do well in a weak division and hope the attendance stays down enough so he doesn't have to pay, or rises up enough that he can afford to pay it.

MisterB
12-08-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode

The catch is that he only has to pay rent if the attendance goes above a certain figure. I believe the number is just below 2 million and they only count "full-price" tickets. That means 1/2 price Mondays don't count.

The cutoff is 1.2 million. The lowest the Sox have drawn in Comiskey II was 1.34 mil in '99. Of course there are half-price nights, and I'm not sure if season tickets still count as 'full price' on those nights or not. It is safe to say that the Sox have paid some rent for most of the time they've been in the new park.

Iwritecode
12-08-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
The cutoff is 1.2 million. The lowest the Sox have drawn in Comiskey II was 1.34 mil in '99. Of course there are half-price nights, and I'm not sure if season tickets still count as 'full price' on those nights or not. It is safe to say that the Sox have paid some rent for most of the time they've been in the new park.

I'm pretty sure he didn't pay rent in 2000 when they won the division and the attendance was actually higher than it was last year. You can't just look at overall season attendance. I don't know for sure if season tickets are counted at all since the holders aren't actually paying full price for any of the tickets...

Iwritecode
12-08-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I'm pretty sure he didn't pay rent in 2000 when they won the division and the attendance was actually higher than it was last year. You can't just look at overall season attendance. I don't know for sure if season tickets are counted at all since the holders aren't actually paying full price for any of the tickets...

OK, I was wrong. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24836) But still, paying under 500,000 in rent for the past 7 years is a pretty good deal.

I'm sure he has no problem not paying at all either...