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View Full Version : Can we please end the boycott against Sox players?


JC456
12-05-2003, 11:46 PM
I am so tired of hearing and reading about boycotting Sox games to get even with JR for not spending money on players. It's been 10 years now all of you, are you any closer to that World Series victory chest pump because of your effort. NO!!!!

You hurt the fans and the players and do nothing, listen hard, do nothing to hurt JR. Why should he care about you? He put a winner on the field in 2000 and no one came. Then everyone bitched the next year when things didn't go the same way and he didn't spend any money.

He can't win with this group of fans. I know one thing, I can't stand it when the Cubs are spending because they sell out almost every game. And the Sox fan reply is always, they'll never see a winner. Well last year was close enough for me that I have had it with all you winnie little losers who think JR owes you something. He owes you nothing. Either you like the game or you don't. Which is it? Do you love the game? If so, the owner shouldn't matter, the game would.

Ah, but alas, he screwed you in '94 right. Prove the Sox would have won. They didn't in '93 and it was basically the same team.

Let's fight the attendance battle different in 2004 and fill the seats with Sox fans and root the team, players. You don't have to root for JR.

RedPinStripes
12-05-2003, 11:54 PM
You sure your first name isnt Josh? I think Jerry has a Son named Josh.

jordan23ventura
12-05-2003, 11:56 PM
I agree. Boycotting tells Reinsdorf not to sell but move the team. That's the worst possible outcome. The unfortunate thing about being a sports fan is that you have no choice but spend your money, fill yourself with a false sense of hope every year, and take what they give you. In return, the only right you have is the right to complain, and that is IF you don't boycott and continue to spend your money. Likewise, if you vote for one guy and another is elected you can bitch only because you voted in the first place.

cwsox
12-05-2003, 11:57 PM
hey, I do my part - just got my seasons ticket renewal today -- I spend a smuch money as I possibly can there!

JC456
12-06-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by cwsox
hey, I do my part - just got my seasons ticket renewal today -- I spend a smuch money as I possibly can there!

There are plenty of us who go to the games, but it isn't enough. You've seen the empty blue seats up and down the upper deck for years like me. I go to 15 games a year and can't get good seats in the lower bowl, yet I buy what they have and watch as no one fills those better seats.

Either there aren't many Sox fans left, or there are still those who believe JR rigged 1994.

Yep that one guy took on Major League Baseball. No other owner or player rep had any say. Nope only JR. To be honest, I can't stand the guy, but it isn't him who doesn't show up and it wasn't he who instigated the lock out as all want us to think. I find that completely impossible that one man can take down any sport's league.

To me, all of these whiners do is give us good fans a black eye. I've decided after how far the Cubs went last year the time is now to put up a fight against those who want to trash my team.

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 12:15 AM
I understand where you're coming from, but those fans that dont show are in agreemnet with just about all of us. Either they wont support Jerry, or they dont trust him him they were to draw sellouts every game. I boycotted baseball in general from 94-98. And it wasnt just because of Jerry. I personally cant stand Jerry as an owner, but i dont know anybetter but to go to gmaes on weekends in the summer. I hit about 15-20 a year. And that's enough. Time and money are an issue when you drive a truck.

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I understand where you're coming from, but those fans that dont show are in agreemnet with just about all of us. Either they wont support Jerry, or they dont trust him him they were to draw sellouts every game. I boycotted baseball in general from 94-98. And it wasnt just because of Jerry. I personally cant stand Jerry as an owner, but i dont know anybetter but to go to gmaes on weekends in the summer. I hit about 15-20 a year. And that's enough. Time and money are an issue when you drive a truck.


15-20 is more than enough. If every Sox fan caught that many games the cell would be full with a waiting list. Seeing 5 a year should be good enough, but I am sure that most will find excuses, even those in the area near the park. I'm sure I will find enough opposition for this statement, but I'm guessing there are enough people who browse this board who won't see even five games per year.

JC456
12-06-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I understand where you're coming from, but those fans that dont show are in agreemnet with just about all of us. Either they wont support Jerry, or they dont trust him him they were to draw sellouts every game. I boycotted baseball in general from 94-98. And it wasnt just because of Jerry. I personally cant stand Jerry as an owner, but i dont know anybetter but to go to gmaes on weekends in the summer. I hit about 15-20 a year. And that's enough. Time and money are an issue when you drive a truck.

15 games a year is my average and 21 my most in the last 6 years. I sat there when there were like 9,000 fans. The Kane County Cougars draw that and more. It's just gone on long enough. I'm not talking to those who go to games, I am speaking to those who don't. Those who think they can make the White Sox a winner by not supporting them. I guess I'll never understand that mentality. They are hurting themselves as well. Saturday night fireworks. The best fireworks in town in my eyes. This fanchise does a lot to correct the faults of the past. They have now cut off the top eight rows of the upper deck to silence the critics on that issue. It still didn't get a winner on the field.

I just think it is silly to continue to beat a dead horse. JR this and JR that. He doesn't hit, field or manage, he hires others to do that work. The only people those fans hurt are the players and fans. That's it. Like I said it is on 10 years now and nothing is changing to make the team better because the fans don't show. It's a simple equation to learn on. You fill the seats and you get better players which should result in winning games. You don't fill the seats, the marginal players will play and losing will be the norm.

Again I say, it is enough!!!!

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
15-20 is more than enough. If every Sox fan caught that many games the cell would be full with a waiting list. Seeing 5 a year should be good enough, but I am sure that most will find excuses, even those in the area near the park. I'm sure I will find enough opposition for this statement, but I'm guessing there are enough people who browse this board who won't see even five games per year.

i rarly go to games during the week. That's a big problem withthe attendance too. I get up at 4am. I'm not staying out till 10, then driving an hour home and finally getting to bed by 1 unless it's a real imortant game. I might have hit 3 week day games last year and i know 2 were against the twins.

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by JC456

I just think it is silly to continue to beat a dead horse. JR this and JR that. He doesn't hit, field or manage, he hires others to do that work. The only people those fans hurt are the players and fans. That's it. Like I said it is on 10 years now and nothing is changing to make the team better because the fans don't show. It's a simple equation to learn on. You fill the seats and you get better players which should result in winning games. You don't fill the seats, the marginal players will play and losing will be the norm.

Again I say, it is enough!!!!

Good point. And how would you feel as a guy like Maggs or Thomas especially, who has given so much to the city and it's fans to see all those empty seats? How is that motivation?

JC456
12-06-2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
Good point. And how would you feel as a guy like Maggs or Thomas especially, who has given so much to the city and it's fans to see all those empty seats? How is that motivation?

I think it does bother them. I think they'd rather be booed at, then not having anyone in the seats. That's what these boycotting people don't understand.

My New Year's resolution is to promote the **** out of the Sox and start debating those who feel their movement is making progress.

Go Sox :D:

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by JC456
I think it does bother them. I think they'd rather be booed at, then not having anyone in the seats. That's what these boycotting people don't understand.

My New Year's resolution is to promote the **** out of the Sox and start debating those who feel their movement is making progress.

Go Sox :D:

I think you better listen to Jon Garland and Mark Buehrle. Sounded to me as if it bothers them a lot to get booed.

soxwon
12-06-2003, 12:55 AM
i agree with the first post- im a diehard fan since 65, i love this team, of course i want to win it all but, give it time.
have faith- its ok complain but dont let it drive you batty.
da reverand

JC456
12-06-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I think you better listen to Jon Garland and Mark Buehrle. Sounded to me as if it bothers them a lot to get booed.

Ah, but did they play better after their complaint?

soxnut
12-06-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by JC456
I am so tired of hearing and reading about boycotting Sox games to get even with JR for not spending money on players. It's been 10 years now all of you, are you any closer to that World Series victory chest pump because of your effort. NO!!!!

You hurt the fans and the players and do nothing, listen hard, do nothing to hurt JR. Why should he care about you? He put a winner on the field in 2000 and no one came. Then everyone bitched the next year when things didn't go the same way and he didn't spend any money.

He can't win with this group of fans. I know one thing, I can't stand it when the Cubs are spending because they sell out almost every game. And the Sox fan reply is always, they'll never see a winner. Well last year was close enough for me that I have had it with all you winnie little losers who think JR owes you something. He owes you nothing. Either you like the game or you don't. Which is it? Do you love the game? If so, the owner shouldn't matter, the game would.

Ah, but alas, he screwed you in '94 right. Prove the Sox would have won. They didn't in '93 and it was basically the same team.

Let's fight the attendance battle different in 2004 and fill the seats with Sox fans and root the team, players. You don't have to root for JR.

I agree with your statements, and most of the posters to this point. I've gone to about 5 games a year the last few years and I would like to go more, but I just haven't had the money the last few years to go more.

You're right, by fans not attending games because of ownership is only hurting the players and the fans. Accountants can always figure out ways to make more with less, then, management puts it in place. And that's what has happened. So thanks alot to all of the non-attendees.......... :(:


Folks, just go to the games and support your team. :smile:

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Ah, but did they play better after their complaint?

Yeah, but they accused those fan who boo " they know nothing abou baseball" Or they're disrepecting us"

PUT A SOCK IN it WHINER!

JC456
12-06-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Yeah, but they accused those fan who boo " they know nothing abou baseball" Or they're disrepecting us"

PUT A SOCK IN it WHINER!

How about a White Sock?

You must be someone who believes in boycotting against Garland and Buehrle, why should you worry about whether they get booed or not.

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by JC456
How about a White Sock?

You must be someone who believes in boycotting against Garland and Buehrle, why should you worry about whether they get booed or not.

Because i was one of the "boycotters" boo-ing them. **** man, do you work for Jerry?

When a player sucks they get boo-ed and when their retort is "fans are idiots because they boo" . Kind of pisses people off. i still like Mark and John, i just remember how they were about being boo-ed since you said they dont care .

BOYCOTTER!

JC456
12-06-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Because i was one of the "boycotters" boo-ing them. **** man, do you work for Jerry?

When a player sucks they get boo-ed and when their retort is "fans are idiots because they boo" . Kind of pisses people off. i still like Mark and John, i just remember how they were about being boo-ed since you said they dont care .

BOYCOTTER!

I don't get your point. Why do you care what they say about those who boo them? What, are you going to run out on the field and punch them because they pissed you off?

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by JC456
I don't get your point. Why do you care what they say about those who boo them? What, are you going to run out on the field and punch them because they pissed you off?

You said they dont care. I just ****ing told you they do care. get it? Yeah, i've done it my whole life. I have a reputation ya know. I go to games just to get back at ball players with big mouths. I kick the **** out them for it.

JC456
12-06-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
You said they dont care. I just ****ing told you they do care. get it? Yeah, i've done it my whole life. I have a reputation ya know. I go to games just to get back at ball players with big mouths. I kick the **** out them for it.

Okay, well then why do you think it pisses people off? I assumed you were part of that group since you mentioned it.

Do you go to games?

How many a year?

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 01:26 AM
No one likes being booed on the road, but then again they are professionals and have to deal with that. Most of it has to do with the high expectations that went into last season. It wasn't about the Central but about the postseason, because the Central was in their hands on paper. When the fans see that those expectations are not being realized they will boo anyone who isn't performing at that time.

I think the whole basic point here is that if there were enough fans in the stand the players wouldn't hear the small few dedicated fans out there booing. But give them credit for showing up. As long as they sit there they can boo whoever they want.

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 01:26 AM
No one likes being booed when they are NOT on the road.....

Correction on post above.

JC456
12-06-2003, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
No one likes being booed when they are NOT on the road.....

Correction on post above. \

Okay, we'll let it go this time.

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 01:29 AM
BTW, its funny because neither of you are boycotting anything. Both of you are in total agreement.

Daver
12-06-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Okay, well then why do you think it pisses people off? I assumed you were part of that group since you mentioned it.

Do you go to games?

How many a year?


What difference does that make?

nasox
12-06-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
BTW, its funny because neither of you are boycotting anything. Both of you are in total agreement.

You just pulled a Homer Simpson

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Okay, well then why do you think it pisses people off? I assumed you were part of that group since you mentioned it.

Do you go to games?

How many a year?

Not as many as you. I'm not half the fan you are. no way possible. And god forbit if i let a player know he's not doing a good job .

Ya know what irritates me is people that come on here ranting and raving of how good a fan they are and how ****ty other people are because they dont go to games.

JC456
12-06-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Daver
What difference does that make?

Because I'm interested?

Daver
12-06-2003, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Because I'm interested?


So basicaly you are saying if I don't attend the games I am not a fan?

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by Daver



So basicaly you are saying if I don't attend the games I am not a fan?


Umm.... I think this is about spending your money, and in that case I wouldn't say that you're not a fan if you don't attend games. I would say that you don't attend then you don't have the right to complain about what the team does or does not do with the money you are giving them, because you wouldn't be giving them anything.

idseer
12-06-2003, 02:02 AM
where is it written that to be a fan you have to spend a DIME on the team of your interest? or that you can't or shouldn't complain about dumb moves, trades, etc?
the stupist thing i see here is when one fan tells another fan just how you should be a fan. i don't care if you go to every game and spend a small fortune on the sox and never complain about ownership players or what have you ... you're no bigger or better fan than i am.

in other words ..... blow it out yourear.

JC456
12-06-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
Umm.... I think this is about spending your money, and in that case I wouldn't say that you're not a fan if you don't attend games. I would say that you don't attend then you don't have the right to complain about what the team does or does not do with the money you are giving them, because you wouldn't be giving them anything.

Actually it is about JR spending money on players. If you don't go to games, then the likelihood of getting better talent isn't there. And yes, those who don't go to games are not fans because they provide no value to the team.

JC456
12-06-2003, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by idseer
where is it written that to be a fan you have to spend a DIME on the team of your interest? or that you can't or shouldn't complain about dumb moves, trades, etc?
the stupist thing i see here is when one fan tells another fan just how you should be a fan. i don't care if you go to every game and spend a small fortune on the sox and never complain about ownership players or what have you ... you're no bigger or better fan than i am.

in other words ..... blow it out yourear.

What an assanine statement. You don't want to spend a dime on a team, but want what to be considered a fan. Would there be a team if no one spent any money?

idseer
12-06-2003, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by JC456
What an assanine statement. You don't want to spend a dime on a team, but want what to be considered a fan. Would there be a team if no one spent any money?

i, on the other hand think you're whole case is assinine. you apparently think you have to be some kind of stockholder to root for a team. where did this idea begin?
i don't need to be 'considered' a fan. i AM a fan, regardless of what you happen to think.

let's look this word up, shall we?

fan:an enthusiastic devotee of a sport or diversion: a baseball fan. an ardent admirer.

i couldn't find any definition that suggests you also have to be an investor of some sort.

i repeat ... blow it out yourear!

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by idseer
where is it written that to be a fan you have to spend a DIME on the team of your interest? or that you can't or shouldn't complain about dumb moves, trades, etc?
the stupist thing i see here is when one fan tells another fan just how you should be a fan. i don't care if you go to every game and spend a small fortune on the sox and never complain about ownership players or what have you ... you're no bigger or better fan than i am.

in other words ..... blow it out yourear.


First of all, a team relies on its fans to support its existence, in case you did not know that. If the fans do not support the team, the team dies. If you do not support your team and see that it is sufferring as a result, how can you complain? Thats like saying I don't have to feed my dog yet expecting it to live a normal healthy life. I only see you as a leech sucking off of everyone else and asking for more. So, because I do pay to support my team I AM a "bigger" and "better" fan than you are, not because I see it that way through my eyes but because the organization and the players working for it see it that way through their eyes, whose paychecks come from people like me - the fans.

JC456
12-06-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i, on the other hand think you're whole case is assinine. you apparently think you have to be some kind of stockholder to root for a team. where did this idea begin?
i don't need to be 'considered' a fan. i AM a fan, regardless of what you happen to think.

let's look this word up, shall we?

fan:an enthusiastic devotee of a sport or diversion: a baseball fan. an ardent admirer.

i couldn't find any definition that suggests you also have to be an investor of some sort.

i repeat ... blow it out yourear!

No my friend. Baseball is a business not the public league where you get to go for free. A little economic lesson. To have a Major League Franchise, an owner must field players. To field players, the player must be part of the union. To be part of the union, the player must get paid. In order to get paid the owner needs to collect money. The fan base becomes the economics. That means people must spend money for the team to exist. That could be hats, jackets, hot dogs, beer, tickets anything with the teams logo.

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 02:29 AM
I'm tellin ya. This has got to be Rob Gallas or one of Jerry's kids.

Hey JC, So whover lives on the west coast cant be a sox fan unless they throw money away on plan tickets so many times a year to watch them?

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by idseer


i, on the other hand think you're whole case is assinine. you apparently think you have to be some kind of stockholder to root for a team. where did this idea begin?
i don't need to be 'considered' a fan. i AM a fan, regardless of what you happen to think.

let's look this word up, shall we?

.

i couldn't find any definition that suggests you also have to be an investor of some sort.

i repeat ... blow it out yourear!


Man, you are an idiot aren't you?

"fan:an enthusiastic devotee of a sport or diversion: a baseball fan. an ardent admirer"

How about we look up devotee? That means, yes, someone who is enthusiastic about something, but also a follower. Followers do what is expected of them to keep whatever they follow in place. You are not a follower because you do not do what is expected of you to keep the Sox, in this instance, in place. You may claim to be a generic baseball fan but that only means supporting baseball, which could be simply chiming in during a conversation promoting the sport or actually participating in it yourself. To say you are a fan, or devotee, or follower (which ever you choose) of the Chicago White Sox entails a more specific commitment, one which you choose not to uphold.

idseer
12-06-2003, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by JC456
No my friend. Baseball is a business not the public league where you get to go for free. A little economic lesson. To have a Major League Franchise, an owner must field players. To field players, the player must be part of the union. To be part of the union, the player must get paid. In order to get paid the owner needs to collect money. The fan base becomes the economics. That means people must spend money for the team to exist. That could be hats, jackets, hot dogs, beer, tickets anything with the teams logo.

i see no good point here. and you say nothing that everybody here doesn't already know. baseball may be a business to YOU ... but it's NOT a business to me ... a FAN!
there will probably always be those that wish to see the games live. they'll spend the money it takes to field a team. what you can't seem to understand is that fans can exist outside this little dance. and they DO!
if the money starts to dry up, baseball will be cheaper to watch. that's all. players won't get as much, owners will sell to new owners who won't make as much, etc. i don't think that's such a bad thing.

once again ... slowly. sports are not about money to the fan. it's the game we're interested in.

what is it about this that you don't understand?

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I'm tellin ya. This has got to be Rob Gallas or one of Jerry's kids.

Hey JC, So whover lives on the west coast cant be a sox fan unless they throw money away on plan tickets so many times a year to watch them?


That does not have to be the case. They can buy merchandise. This is becoming way too drawn out by the way. It's not like there is a contract you have to sign that says "If I am going to be considered a supporter of Organization A I have to spend X amount of money each year." The idea is that a true fan of a certain team would buy tickets to the game, buy merchandise, etc. because he would WANT to, not feel obligated to. He would know that by buying merchandise he is supporting his team and would be happy about that, even if he were not happy with the direction of the team. Any true FAN I know has a shirt or jersey or poster or something laying around somewhere. That is the support. As far as I can see, the idea that the this person is trying to get across is that he doesn't want to spend any money on the team but wants to see it prosper. Fans like to see their team prosper. He is claiming to be a fan. I see a problem there. Don't you?

JC456
12-06-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I'm tellin ya. This has got to be Rob Gallas or one of Jerry's kids.

Hey JC, So whover lives on the west coast cant be a sox fan unless they throw money away on plan tickets so many times a year to watch them?

I think you mean plane tickets, and I don't know about so many times a year. But going to the Angels, Dodgers, San Fran, San Diego, Oakland Seattle games, gives the Sox a cut in the ticket sales when they are visiting.

No, the statement was if I don't spend a dime I can't be a fan. Well again, if no one spent a dime there would be no team. If you support the team by buying a team's parafanalia, then a fan that person becomes. Spending money, as I said, on hats and jackets is contributing to the team's payroll. Anyone can say they are a fan of any sports team, but it is in the involvement with the team, heard of sports television packages? Cubs get fans from all over the country. I went to Milwaukee and there were more Cub fans in the Brewers stadium then Brewers fans. That's just sick.

Shame on those Milwaukee fans. shame on the Sox fans who let the visiting teams control more than 35% of ticket sales with their fans. It is called home field. Without fans it is nothing.

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 02:44 AM
I would think that anyone who spends time on this board at least goes to a few games a year and if they live out of state, there's a real good chance they have a t-shirt or jacket. and a real good chance they have 2 t-shirts. I'm just sick of this guy blasting people because the park isnt full. I hear enough of it from Sox mgt. every year.

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by idseer


i see no good point here. and you say nothing that everybody here doesn't already know. baseball may be a business to YOU ... but it's NOT a business to me ... a FAN!
there will probably always be those that wish to see the games live. they'll spend the money it takes to field a team. what you can't seem to understand is that fans can exist outside this little dance. and they DO!
if the money starts to dry up, baseball will be cheaper to watch. that's all. players won't get as much, owners will sell to new owners who won't make as much, etc. i don't think that's such a bad thing.

once again ... slowly. sports are not about money to the fan. it's the game we're interested in.

what is it about this that you don't understand?



What is wrong with you? This is the last reply I am giving you. I am trying to ignore your ignorance but it's too hard.

Read this outloud to yourself, please. And when you do, listen carefully.

Baseball is a game, but it is a buisness. Poker is a game, but it is a buisness. Basketball, football, hockey, etc. etc. are all games and are all buisnesses. If you want to support a non-profit league you will NOT see professional-level play. The players may love the game genuinely from the heart and soul, just as you may love it, but they play for money. A few might do this for free, but they would be working full time jobs and definately would not be able to make 162 games per season. The park a ML team plays in costs money. The eqiupment, uniforms, everything costs money. The owners, the leagues, the players themseleves provide you - the fan that you claim to be - a free service with an implied moniterial obligation. You - the fan - provide them with what they need and they provide you with the quality play that you desire.

And as far as your whole remark about if fans do not support the salaries will drop, that is true. But that means that the player who is the next Nolan Ryan would love to play baseball for a living but opts for law school because it pays higher, and the Royce Claytons of the world eventually become your All Stars year after year. As salaries and funding falls, so does quality. I am going to bed now. I promise to read no more of your comments for fear I may rip out my hair.

idseer
12-06-2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by JC456

No, the statement was if I don't spend a dime I can't be a fan. Well again, if no one spent a dime there would be no team. ]
and if all the stars went supernova at the same time, there's be no team too. how likely do you think this is?


Originally posted by JC456
[B]If you support the team by buying a team's parafanalia, then a fan that person becomes. ]

thank you yoda.

Originally posted by JC456
[B]Shame on those Milwaukee fans. shame on the Sox fans who let the visiting teams control more than 35% of ticket sales with their fans. It is called home field. Without fans it is nothing.

are you really serious? cause i find it hard to believe you're serious. shame? really? you can't be serious ..... can you???
is this guy serious?

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I would think that anyone who spends time on this board at least goes to a few games a year and if they live out of state, there's a real good chance they have a t-shirt or jacket. and a real good chance they have 2 t-shirts. I'm just sick of this guy blasting people because the park isnt full. I hear enough of it from Sox mgt. every year.


he's not blasting the fans, just saying the simple point that if the seats were filled the team would be better. that's all this is about and all it was about until captain dip**** decided to say hello.

JC456
12-06-2003, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I would think that anyone who spends time on this board at least goes to a few games a year and if they live out of state, there's a real good chance they have a t-shirt or jacket. and a real good chance they have 2 t-shirts. I'm just sick of this guy blasting people because the park isnt full. I hear enough of it from Sox mgt. every year.

I'm sick of people who saythey are fans not going to the games to support the team and then coming onto a forum like this and bitch about management not spending money. I'll ask you: do you think the players are here for their health, or do you think they want to make money to support their families?

JC456
12-06-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
he's not blasting the fans, just saying the simple point that if the seats were filled the team would be better. that's all this is about and all it was about until captain dip**** decided to say hello.

EXACTLY

:beer

idseer
12-06-2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
What is wrong with you? This is the last reply I am giving you. I am trying to ignore your ignorance but it's too hard.

Read this outloud to yourself, please. And when you do, listen carefully.

Baseball is a game, but it is a buisness. Poker is a game, but it is a buisness. Basketball, football, hockey, etc. etc. are all games and are all buisnesses. If you want to support a non-profit league you will NOT see professional-level play. The players may love the game genuinely from the heart and soul, just as you may love it, but they play for money. A few might do this for free, but they would be working full time jobs and definately would not be able to make 162 games per season. The park a ML team plays in costs money. The eqiupment, uniforms, everything costs money. The owners, the leagues, the players themseleves provide you - the fan that you claim to be - a free service with an implied moniterial obligation. You - the fan - provide them with what they need and they provide you with the quality play that you desire.

And as far as your whole remark about if fans do not support the salaries will drop, that is true. But that means that the player who is the next Nolan Ryan would love to play baseball for a living but opts for law school because it pays higher, and the Royce Claytons of the world eventually become your All Stars year after year. As salaries and funding falls, so does quality. I am going to bed now. I promise to read no more of your comments for fear I may rip out my hair.

well ... i'd call you an idiot .... but you won't read it i guess, so ... i won't. besides i think it's not allowed here. so i really really won't.

i WILL say this one more time tho, in hopes someone else might explain it to you.

you don't have to SUPPORT a team to be a fan of that team. PERIOD!

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by JC456
I'm sick of people who saythey are fans not going to the games to support the team and then coming onto a forum like this and bitch about management not spending money. I'll ask you: do you think the players are here for their health, or do you think they want to make money to support their families?

What the ****? Another dumbass question about baseball players? How the **** do i know? Give me their paycheck and i'll give you any answer you want. I dont need to stress how dedicated i am to this team . There are people on this board that know me and know and what i've done to show dedeication. And yeah uncle jerry, that include's spending money. I have every right to bitch since I've watched everyone else win the world series since 1982.

JC456
12-06-2003, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by JC456
I'm sick of people who saythey are fans not going to the games to support the team and then coming onto a forum like this and bitch about management not spending money. I'll ask you: do you think the players are here for their health, or do you think they want to make money to support their families?

He/she is a Liberal thinker who thinks someone who doesn't pay taxes, ought to get a tax refund check.

JC456
12-06-2003, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
What the ****? Another dumbass question about baseball players? How the **** do i know? Give me their paycheck and i'll give you any answer you want. I dont need to stress how dedicated i am to this team . There are people on this board that know me and know and what i've done to show dedeication. And yeah uncle jerry, that include's spending money. I have every right to bitch since I've watched everyone else win the world series since 1982.

Who do you suppose plays the games? The players?

Do you know that only 35% of Americans vote? Yet over 75% bitch about the state of the country. Is that a scenario you can live with.

idseer
12-06-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
he's not blasting the fans, just saying the simple point that if the seats were filled the team would be better. that's all this is about and all it was about until captain dip**** decided to say hello.

ya know, i think campbells make crappy soup. but! maybe if i buy more of it. and get everyone esle to buy more of it, they'll make it better? what do ya think?

or are you twisted and think a product should be good first THEN expect more sales?

and i'm not a captain ... i'm a colonel.

RedPinStripes
12-06-2003, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by JC456
He/she is a Liberal thinker who thinks someone who doesn't pay taxes, ought to get a tax refund check.



ALL ABOARD!
:partybus
"Anyone seen my crack pipe laying around?"

JC456
12-06-2003, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by idseer
well ... i'd call you an idiot .... but you won't read it i guess, so ... i won't. besides i think it's not allowed here. so i really really won't.

i WILL say this one more time tho, in hopes someone else might explain it to you.

you don't have to SUPPORT a team to be a fan of that team. PERIOD!

Well I'd call you an idiot, but everyone else on here already knows.

Yes you do, otherwise who pays the salaries. You think money grows on trees?

idseer
12-06-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Who do you suppose plays the games? The players?

Do you know that only 35% of Americans vote? Yet over 75% bitch about the state of the country. Is that a scenario you can live with.

i'll let the first statement pass. i mean ... it's too easy.

as for the last. i agree with george carlin here. those that vote have no right to bitch. they're the ones that put the clowns in office.
it the ones who don't vote that have a right to bitch!

idseer
12-06-2003, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Well I'd call you an idiot, but everyone else on here already knows.

Yes you do, otherwise who pays the salaries. You think money grows on trees?

i believe you said it earlier. the owner pays the salaries.

JC456
12-06-2003, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
ALL ABOARD!
:partybus
"Anyone seen my crack pipe laying around?" :bluesbros

Dan H
12-06-2003, 09:34 AM
The fans have absolutely no responsibility to go to one game. Jerry Reinsdorf has the responsibility to put out a great product and his record is only so-so on that.

The fans spoke about the strike and the White Flag Trade. Jerry Reinsdorf didn't listen. That's not the fans' fault. That's Jerry Reinsdorf's. He should know that, being such a capitalist.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-06-2003, 09:56 AM
My, my, my... it's the season for signing free agents and the Sox aren't making any moves, so it's time for all of us to blow off steam by trotting out the ol' "who's the REAL Sox Fan" argument.

I sure wish we had better things to talk about. How about the new ticket price increase?

Anybody bitching here about Sox Fans ought to get a clue because you're preaching to the choir. We aren't the problem. We wouldn't be on a Sox Fan message board posting in the middle of December if we were.

It's a plain ugly fact that we are badly outnumbered in this town. We show up for games but there aren't enough of us left anymore to fill 30,000 seats for 81 home dates. I suggest all of us just start dealing with it, okay?

The problem is all the people who *aren't* Sox Fans. Making them into Sox Fans isn't the responsiblity of Sox Fans. (Well, duh.) It's the responsibility of the Sox. They have been doing a piss poor job of it for going on 23 years now. I would note why this is, but it is hardly relevant to the larger point I'm tryiing to make.

STOP BLAMING SOX FANS. WE'RE VICTIMS, NOT CULPRITS.

With some of the demented logic I've read here, I'm quite certain some of you find it easy to blame a rape victim because obviously she was asking for it.

Sheesh...

TornLabrum
12-06-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i'll let the first statement pass. i mean ... it's too easy.

as for the last. i agree with george carlin here. those that vote have no right to bitch. they're the ones that put the clowns in office.
it the ones who don't vote that have a right to bitch!

I think I have every right to bitch if I voted for the loser.

Soxfest
12-06-2003, 11:23 AM
JR has made money every year. If not he would of sold long ago.

ode to veeck
12-06-2003, 11:45 AM
The problem is all the people who *aren't* Sox Fans. Making them into Sox Fans isn't the responsiblity of Sox Fans. (Well, duh.) It's the responsibility of the Sox. They have been doing a piss poor job of it for going on 23 years now. I would note why this is, but it is hardly relevant to the larger point I'm tryiing to make.

Exactly, PHG, I can't believe this thread went on for several pages without a hint of pointing out WHY the pendulum has shifted towards the Scrubs in the last 23 years. It's clearly a horse and cart question, and JR unfortunately doesn't know how to lead here.

The recent JR quote "Chicago's always been a Cubs town" pretty much sums up the situation--i.e not the literal meaning of the quote but the totally clueless leader of our beloved Sox franchise.

JR doesn't understand he is in the entertainment business, and its his business responsibility to attract fans to the Cell, not the fans responsibilty to trot like lemmings to fill his coffers full to enable him to then build an entertaining (competitive) product.

JR's boneheaded attitude to the fans, PR gaffs, and slaps in the face are just some of the reasons he has consistently loss market share in Chicago and across the country to the Cubs for the last quarter century. Its not like the Cubune and the Wrigleys were the rocket scientists of PR either.

JR is a PR retard and all my worst fears when I first saw the ridiculous Ribbie and Rhubarb appear have come to pass ... sigh

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 02:31 PM
This is just which came first, the chicken or the egg?

If the stadium is full, the team will be better. If the owner spends money wisely on productive players, the stadium will start to fill. Which one comes first? Who knows, but it's not looking so good at the moment.

I will thoroughly defend the responsibility that a fan has to support his team if he wants to see it improve, however in the case it falls on most heavily on the owner considering that the stadium WAS filling up last year when the team was in contention.

What I think everyone is worried about is that JR will field a crappy 2nd place team in the AL Central - a division without ANY other big money franchises that can easily be won - and the fans will not show. Then, JR will claim that no one cares about the Sox and the trend will continue, like it always does, to another poor team the year after that, most likely a entirely rebuilt one.

idseer
12-06-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
This is just which came first, the chicken or the egg?

If the stadium is full, the team will be better. If the owner spends money wisely on productive players, the stadium will start to fill. Which one comes first? Who knows, but it's not looking so good at the moment.



it's no such thing!

WHEN you have a product worth buying ... THEN people will buy it. it's NEVER the other way around. NEVER!

and when your product doesn't live up to it's billing time after time you can expect it's sales to go down. to try to turn it around and blame the crappy product on the consumer is complete idiocy.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2003, 02:47 PM
May I suggest a few points and items:

I suggest reading The Lords Of The Realm by John Heylar of The Wall Street Journal to get an honest sense of what happened during the 1994 / 95 labor impasse and the large role that Jerry Reinsdorf had in it.

Another book is The Last Commissioner by Fay Vincent. Vincent makes his case that it was Reinsdorf and Bud Selig who instituted the collusion policy of the mid 80's that resulted in the courts ruling that MLB had to pay hundreds of millions of dollars for breaking the law.

To the point of 'if the fans won't come out, the Sox will move...' My question is to where? Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, New Orleans, Mexico City?

The areas to move franchises to are drying up. It's not that easy anymore to go someplace and make a killing. Not saying that Uncle Jerry couldn't but with a new 15 year lease agreement with the city and state he'd have to pay a hell of a lot of money to break it. Even if he did the American League within a reasonable amount of time, would place an expansion franchise on the South Side of Chicago. The 3rd largest market in the country is to large to conceed to the National League. (Who knows, in the long run that might be the best thing to ever happen to the fans...)

And as I stated on another post to the originator of this thread after 22 years of what is regarded by many unbiased observers as a flawed PR / media relations policy, the plain fact is that many Sox fans simply do not trust current ownership. Right or wrong that's the way it is.

In such a case it would seem to me that good business tactics would be to make the effort financially, organization wise and media / PR wise to start repairing the damage done by policies that the Sox orginated themselves, instead of making statements to ESPN Radio 1000 in June 2002 that "Chicago has always been a Cubs town..." (direct quote from the owner...) Historically if nothing else that is totally wrong.

Lip

jordan23ventura
12-06-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by idseer


it's no such thing!

WHEN you have a product worth buying ... THEN people will buy it. it's NEVER the other way around. NEVER!

and when your product doesn't live up to it's billing time after time you can expect it's sales to go down. to try to turn it around and blame the crappy product on the consumer is complete idiocy.


Its never that way? It IS that way with sports. Look at the Cubs who will fill reguardless of where their team stands.

It is almost a monopoly in a way. A Chicago WhiteSox fan has no where else to get that product except from JR. Just like when Bell was a monopoly, if that is the only service in the customer's area he has no choice but to put up with bad PR and bad customer service if he wants to keep that product or service. Same way for a Sox fan. He may not agree with how things are run but he really has no other choice but support another team or not support anything at all.

idseer
12-06-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
Its never that way? It IS that way with sports. Look at the Cubs who will fill reguardless of where their team stands.

It is almost a monopoly in a way. A Chicago WhiteSox fan has no where else to get that product except from JR. Just like when Bell was a monopoly, if that is the only service in the customer's area he has no choice but to put up with bad PR and bad customer service if he wants to keep that product or service. Same way for a Sox fan. He may not agree with how things are run but he really has no other choice but support another team or not support anything at all.

you say there's no choice and then proceed to suggest there's 2 choices. are you agreeing with me then? fans have the choice to not support the team?

i don't know why you feel sports is different than anything else. last night you were so insistant it's a business. well, businesses are mismanaged all the time and in fact go out of business or sell. there's no monopoly in fandom that i know of.

and by the way. the worst thing that ever happened to the telephone business was bell being broken up. in those days phone service was great! it's been all downhill ever since.

oldcomiskey
12-06-2003, 04:42 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JC456
Ah, but alas, he screwed you in '94 right. Prove the Sox would have won. They didn't in '93 and it was basically the same team.

they did win in 93 and were in first place in 94 when the strike hit

jordan23ventura
12-07-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by idseer


you say there's no choice and then proceed to suggest there's 2 choices. are you agreeing with me then? fans have the choice to not support the team?

i don't know why you feel sports is different than anything else. last night you were so insistant it's a business. well, businesses are mismanaged all the time and in fact go out of business or sell. there's no monopoly in fandom that i know of.

and by the way. the worst thing that ever happened to the telephone business was bell being broken up. in those days phone service was great! it's been all downhill ever since.


1. It is NOT a monopoly. I compared it to one for the purpose of making an analogy.
2. The analogy was this: In a monopoly you have one product and one provider. Chicago White Sox baseball was the one product, with the sole provider being JR. A CHW fan can not to the the CHC or the NYY or anywhere else for White Sox Baseball.
3. The Bell break up opened up thousands and thousands of jobs. That is bad?
4. I will NEVER agree with you. Even if there is a time that I do secretly agree with you I will play devil's advocate just to piss you off.

Dan H
12-07-2003, 09:13 AM
I'm with PHG on this issue. Blaming the fans is not any solution to any of the Sox problems, attendance or otherwise.

The simple fact is that fans have been constantly criticized for the past 10 years. Has anyone seen an increase in attendance as a result? No one is going to attend more games because they are being brow beaten or slandered.

I know one thing for sure: The Sox need to make some major moves this offseason. Very few will be interested in another rebuidling era that has not produced a World Series appearance since 1959.

idseer
12-07-2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
1. It is NOT a monopoly. I compared it to one for the purpose of making an analogy.
2. The analogy was this: In a monopoly you have one product and one provider. Chicago White Sox baseball was the one product, with the sole provider being JR. A CHW fan can not to the the CHC or the NYY or anywhere else for White Sox Baseball.


it's a very bad analogy. it's pretty hard to live without a telephone in todays world, which is the whole point of a monopoly.
we can all live without the white sox (and probably be better off for it).


Originally posted by jordan23ventura
4. I will NEVER agree with you. Even if there is a time that I do secretly agree with you I will play devil's advocate just to piss you off.

i'm sure you probably already DO agree with me. the fact that you can't admit it is your problem .... not mine.

Baby Fisk
12-07-2003, 11:48 AM
Here's a take from a distant Sox fan.

My level of fanaticism for this team peaked in the early 90's: ALCS, Thomas as MVP, Black Jack, new stadium, new unies, etc. There were a couple of great runs made by this team during the last decade and my interest spiked accordingly.

After last year's strong showing (but for the month of September) my fanaticism spiked again. I am one example of how winning breeds greater fan interest. I will always consider myself a Sox fan, but when the Sox start winning games and making playoff runs, that's when my wallet opens up without regrets. Just because the Sox gave me something to obsess over until September this year, I'm making plans to drive down for a couple of games sometime next year. If the team sucked, I'd be making other plans.

Boycotts are ridiculous, but at the same time, JR & KW have to make the moves, pull out that chequebook, and put a winner on the field.

doublem23
12-07-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by idseer
it's no such thing!

WHEN you have a product worth buying ... THEN people will buy it. it's NEVER the other way around. NEVER!

and when your product doesn't live up to it's billing time after time you can expect it's sales to go down. to try to turn it around and blame the crappy product on the consumer is complete idiocy.

Thank you. For ****'s sake people... Would any of you "go to the park first, win later" crowd purposely go to a crappy restaurant as often as possible, in hopes that the money you supply the owner will be used to one day make the food better? Or, on the flip side... If you owned a restaurant that served **** all day, but you still drew huge numbers, would you have any incentive to actually spend more money by upping the quality? Hell no.

I'd say that's Economics 101, but that's understating it.

doublem23
12-07-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
Its never that way? It IS that way with sports. Look at the Cubs who will fill reguardless of where their team stands.


We're striving to be the Cubs now?

:whoflungpoo

PaleHoseGeorge
12-07-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
We're striving to be the Cubs now?

:whoflungpoo

Yep. JC and j23v shot their last bit of credibility sometime back around page 2 of this thread. You know their situation is desperate when they tell us to emulate Cubs fans. Next they'll send pilots on suicide missions against our ships. It would be amusing if it wasn't such a futile waste of life.

:smile:

RedPinStripes
12-07-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yep. JC and j23v shot their last bit of credibility sometime back around page 2 of this thread. You know their situation is desperate when they tell us to emulate Cubs fans. Next they'll send pilots on suicide missions against our ships. It would be amusing if it wasn't such a futile waste of life.

:smile:

JC had credibility that far?

:gallas
"Fill the seats ! Get ready for the corniest promotions ever! And i cant tell you what the letters "JC" stand for in my handle."

jordan23ventura
12-07-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Yep. JC and j23v shot their last bit of credibility sometime back around page 2 of this thread. You know their situation is desperate when they tell us to emulate Cubs fans. Next they'll send pilots on suicide missions against our ships. It would be amusing if it wasn't such a futile waste of life.

:smile:


Emulate Cub fans? What are you talking about? I noted them as an example. They fill up reguardless of where they are in the standings. Granted, that will never happen with the Sox and it doesn't usually happen anywhere else, but people still show up even when their team is losing. Not a lot of people, no. But they still do show up. If this team were to tank for the next 10 years people would still show up. Look at Detroit. You don't see many fans, but there are still some anyway. Even losing year after year does not keep a diehard fan from showing up, even if just to heckle the players.

And my credibility? Credibility is something you give to a columnist when he says certain things will happen and they pan out. You don't give it to an opinionated person on a message board in the first place.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-07-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
Emulate Cub fans? What are you talking about? I noted them as an example. They fill up reguardless of where they are in the standings. Granted, that will never happen with the Sox and it doesn't usually happen anywhere else, but people still show up even when their team is losing. Not a lot of people, no. But they still do show up. If this team were to tank for the next 10 years people would still show up. Look at Detroit. You don't see many fans, but there are still some anyway. Even losing year after year does not keep a diehard fan from showing up, even if just to heckle the players.

And my credibility? Credibility is something you give to a columnist when he says certain things will happen and they pan out. You don't give it to an opinionated person on a message board in the first place.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you meant Cubs fans showing up to support a lousy product was a *good* thing.

My mistake.

Daver
12-07-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura


And my credibility? Credibility is something you give to a columnist when he says certain things will happen and they pan out. You don't give it to an opinionated person on a message board in the first place.

Really?


And here all along I was under the impression that credibility was used to judge the integrity of someones statements,regardless of where they appear.

I'm glad your around to clear up these things.

Palehose13
12-08-2003, 12:06 PM
I'm sick and tired of this attendance crap. It's not like we are the Cleveland Indians of the 80's and average 6,000 fans/game. What do the Sox average, 20, 000/game? IMO, I don't think it's a bad thing to get 20K people for 81 nights a year.

I think the attendance "issue" has been made up by the cubune and blown up by our front office. Sox fans show up when the team is worth spending your hard earned dollars to watch.

It could be worse, Atlanta can't even sell out playoff games.

maurice
12-08-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
With some of the demented logic I've read here, I'm quite certain some of you find it easy to blame a rape victim because obviously she was asking for it.

Great analogy. Here's another:

Restaurant A serves mediocre food, spends a large percentage of its budget on overpriced food that nobody ever orders, and randomly insults its customers. Restaurant B spends 35% more money to serve higher quality food and does a much better job advertising its product. Not surprisingly, Restaurant B draws significantly more customers than Restaurant A. When asked why they have fewer customers, the very wealthy owners of Restaurant A complain that it is the fault of their ungrateful customers who lack brand loyalty, complain that the newer restaurant built at no cost to them is located too close to the lake, and claim that they would agree to increase spending to serve better food only if more customers would show up at their restaurant.

A question for the Giangreco crowd, if increased attendance necesssarily results in increased payroll, why isn't the Sox payroll increasing after last season's significant increase in attendance?

KingXerxes
12-08-2003, 04:01 PM
In the entire Chicagoland area there are a finite number of knowledgable and die-hard White Sox fans - let's say 50,000.

Also in the entire Chicagoland area there are a finite number of knowledgable and die-hard Cub fans - say this is also 50,000.

Each team get each of its die-hard to come to 20 games a year. That's one million for each team.

The Cubs - for an entire litany of reasons - are able to draw two million "non-diehards", while the White Sox are only able to get one million "non-die-hards" in a given year.

I think this scenario plays itself out with almost all sports teams in any city. You have got to be able to tap the market of casual fans and get them to come out to the games - that's where the money is being made. The conundrum at play on these boards is that a lot of White Sox fans make the mistake of almost villifying casual fans (See comments related to Cubs attendance).

If Reinsdorf is ever going to fill Comiskey Park, he has got to stop marketing the team in such a fashion that it either:

A. Totally appeals to diehards, while turning off casual fans (See Ken Harrelson as the announcer).

B. Totally insults the diehards in some woeful attempt to lure casual fans in (See Stephen)

He has no feel for marketing. The end.