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View Full Version : Paulie or C-Lee?


Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:02 PM
I know I am one of the few Sox fans who still really likes Paulie and doesn't want to see him get traded, maybe it just because ever since he ran around the bases with a beer when we clinched the central he has been my favorite player. Paulie is fairly young. He had a few bad months. I think he has potential to be +.300, +25HRs, and +95 RBI's. That's not worth 8 mil, but we pay Jose 5 mil. I don't understand all the love for C-lee and hate for Paulie. I will be the first to admit the he had a bad year last year. But one bad year doesn't = bad player.

How much do you plan on signing C-Lee for when he wants a contract?

Most are acting like C-Lee is going to be great after one very good year and say Paulie is done after one bad year. If one great year = great career. All i will say is Jose, Greg norton, and the milkman each had one really good year.

Look at Paulies average stats from 1999-2002 seasons
BA. 294; 26 HRs; 95 RBI; 75 SO; 48 BB;

Last years for C-Lee (could be considered career year not what will be avg numbers for him)
.291 BA; 31 HRs; 113RBI; 91 SO; 37 BB


Look at those numbers. Before everyone starts saying Paulie is so bad and C-Lee is better. Don't get me wrong I like C-lee and I hope he has another great year. But, face it sometimes guys have one awesome year and come back down to earth. Look at Paulie avgs over 4 yrs compared to C-lee's one great year. Paulie higher average, more walks, and fewer strikeouts. If you take Paulie's best year and compare it to C-Lee's last year Paulie has more HRs in a season (32), a higher OBP, and a higher SLG. In fact C-lee's last years OBP was .331 in 99-02 Paul was higher in evey year with .349 being his lowest. Look at SLG last year C-lee had a .499 as for Paul he had a higher SLG twice in those 4 yrs and had a .498 another year.

Lets face it Paulie had a bad year, but he will come back. Why is C-Lee seen as a better keep? Offensively I believe Paulie has prooven more. Both guys are the same age. Both seem to be good guys. Defensively they are prob about equal as well. C-lee has gotten much better is the of, but Paulie is pretty good himself, I love the 1-6-1 double play, something Frank could never do.

I am not saying that Paul is more worth keeping than C-lee, but I don't think Paulie is as bad as everyone thinks. How much will C-Lee want to make in a contract in the open market? If anyone says anything higher than 7mil you are a hypocrite for saying Paulie makes too much money.

If we have to trade him b/c of money I say we hold on to him for a while. He generally starts off with very good April and May numbers. Trade him then and you will get more. But I am going to be one of the few Sox fans who wants to keep Paulie around.

Palehose13
12-05-2003, 02:10 PM
What else does his contibute other than his bat? So, when that goes...what does he have to offer? Paulie is too one dimensional.

I like him too, but I am tired of the "power hitting" team experiment. Pitching and defense wins. See: FLA Marlins.

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Pitching and defense wins. See: FLA Marlins.

I agree with that.

How much is C-Lee going to make next year? When do we have to give him a contract? Isn't C-Lee one dimensional?

kittle42
12-05-2003, 02:15 PM
I like Konerko. I even have a Konerko jersey. However, Lee is better.

TheRockinMT
12-05-2003, 02:15 PM
I like Paul Konerko and Carlos Lee also. In checking Odalis Perez and his stats the guy has only had one real good year. He missed all of 2000 or 2001 with an injury. Last year he won 12 games but with an ERA over 4.50. He may have been unhappy in LA, but bottom line is you want someone who can keep you in a game and a 4.50 ERA is not real good. The idea of Perez is intriguing, but once gain look at the record. Paulie is worth more and most certainly Lee is.

hold2dibber
12-05-2003, 02:17 PM
Carlos Lee has never had a season nearly as horrible as PK's 2003 season. PK didn't just have a few bad months or a "down year" - he was catestrophically horrifically stunningly abysmal. He had 1 1/2 good months, but overall he was the worst regular 1B in all of major league baseball last year. And he was similarly horrible the 2nd half of 2002. He may return to form, but I just don't think it's worth the risk in light of the money left on that contract. That money would be better spent elsewhere.

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
. However, Lee is better.

How can you say Lee is better? The stats don't say that, unless you compare Paulie's worst year to C-Lee's best year. But then if you looked at Paulie's best year to C-Lee's worst year by that logic Paulie is better.

Palehose13
12-05-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
Isn't C-Lee one dimensional?

He can steal a base. Hell, he would probably lap Paulie twice around the bases. Methinks that makes him at least two dimensional.

Does C-Lee hit into as many DP's?

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13


Does C-Lee hit into as many DP's?

No he strikes out more and gets fewer walks.

Frater Perdurabo
12-05-2003, 02:27 PM
Konerko is vastly overpaid, especially given the new economics of baseball. Lee is not making the same $ as Konerko.

Konerko plays the same position as the Sox best hope for a HOF candidate, Frank Thomas. Frank hits better at 1B. Every AB that PK has as the Sox 1B is one less AB that Frank gets as the Sox 1B. As the Sox LF, Lee is not keeping a better player from playing that position.

Paul Konerko is perhaps the slowest player in the majors. Lee has improved his speed and defense somewhat.

Paul Konerko hits into far too many DPs. Lee learned to take pitches especially when he hit in the #2 spot last season.

Paul Konerko sucked for the majority of last season. He spent almost half the season batting at or under .200. Lee hit .291 with 30 taters last season and spent much of the year as the Sox top RBI producer.

If Konerko had hit .325 with 30 homers and 120 RBI last season, I don't think anyone on this board would "hate" him.

If Konerko and Lee had indentical numbers last year, people still would want Konerko to go to make way for Frank at 1B.

Because Konerko keeps Frank from playing 1B, Sox fans expect him to put up Frank-like numbers.

I don't hate Paul Konerko. I don't like that the Sox have so many lumbering right-handed hitters but very few left-handed bats. I squirm to think that Konerko put up the numbers he did in 2003 for the money that he is being paid and will be paid.

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
He can steal a base.

True. I will give you that.

hold2dibber
12-05-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
I like Paul Konerko and Carlos Lee also. In checking Odalis Perez and his stats the guy has only had one real good year. He missed all of 2000 or 2001 with an injury. Last year he won 12 games but with an ERA over 4.50. He may have been unhappy in LA, but bottom line is you want someone who can keep you in a game and a 4.50 ERA is not real good. The idea of Perez is intriguing, but once gain look at the record. Paulie is worth more and most certainly Lee is.

You're missing the point, though. The Sox, according to what they said, are already over payroll for this year. They have to cut payroll just to keep the core of players they have now. How to do this? Well, PK makes over $8 million per year, and over the last 1 1/2 seasons, he has been simply atrioucious. If the Sox are able to trade him for a serviceable major league starter and shave $3 to $4 million off the payroll in the process, that's a no brainer. Hell, even if you make the deal then non-tender Perez just for the ability to shed PK's salary, then you probably don't have to trade Ordonez.

The point is, you can't just look at PK vs. Perez and ask whether it's a good trade - it's more complicated than that. You have to consider the salary implications as well, plain and simple.

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Konerko is vastly overpaid, especially given the new economics of baseball. Lee is not making the same $ as Konerko.


Let me ask you this then, how much $ and yrs should we give Lee when he wants a contract?

CHISOXFAN13
12-05-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
True. I will give you that.

C. Lee also continues to improve defensively. Remember, this is a guy who played third base for a long time.

Konerko also took a step back defensively.

You can trade Konerko and find a replacement a lot easier than you can a left fielder with strong base-running skills.

Hondo
12-05-2003, 02:33 PM
CLee was real solid in LF last year. He's underated as a fielder. I know LF is a less valuable position than 1B. But when you look at everything CLee's SLG has gone up the past three years while Konerko's has gone down.

Interestingly if you compare them their similar batters using Bill James' Similarity Score.

Both LF's and 1B are a dime a dozen. I think if it came down to it you have to go with Clee for his speed and glove comparitive to Konerko.

If we keep Lee I'd like to see him become a bit more disciplined at the plate. Also as much as we(me included) about Konerko GDiP's. Lee had 20 himself. (Alot of the anger is more situational or perceived situations on Konerko's side I feel)

Whatever we do let's just try and get some value while saving $$$. Easier said than done though I guess.

maurice
12-05-2003, 02:35 PM
Neither player has ever had a great full season, and I doubt that either player ever will. However, CLee was much better in the (most relevant) recent past and thus has far more value as of right now.

There's only a small chance that CLee will get significantly worse in the near future. He'll probably stay about the same and may even improve. Also, he doesn't have a big, crappy contract.

Konerko has sucked for the past 1.5 seasons. There is a very good chance that he never will return to form.

This one is not even close.

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:36 PM
The only good thing I see about trading PK to LA is that he won't be able to kick our @#% until 3 more seasons when we face them again.

I am calling it now, PK will have a great year next year and a good career.

soxnut
12-05-2003, 02:37 PM
I like Konerko as well, but if there is an opportunity to trade him, do it. The money would be better spent elsewhere, such as signing situational hitter Carl Everett.(left-handed bat as well)

As for CLee, he is more dimensional. He can steal a base and he has worked on bunting to advance runners. This team needs help in it's situational hitting, the homer-happy days need to end. Ability to bunt and steal bases helps tremendously in the situational hitting department--advantage CLee.

Also, CLee was brought up as a 3rd baseman, if there is a situation where a 1st baeman is needed CLee could probably do it. Again--advantage CLee. :smile:

DannyCaterFan
12-05-2003, 02:40 PM
Believe me, Paul is one of my favorite Sox players. I was there in Minnesota that day in September of 2000 when he circled the bases with a beer after they clinched the division title that year. I never thought I would be saying he should be traded, but after watching him clog up the bases last year, he has to go if it is a choice between him and Carlos Lee. He is too damn slow! Hopefully, we can find a way to keep him around, but if his trade can help the team, then I say farewell and good luck.

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
C. Lee also continues to improve defensively. Remember, this is a guy who played third base for a long time.

Konerko also took a step back defensively.

You can trade Konerko and find a replacement a lot easier than you can a left fielder with strong base-running skills.

1. Of course C-Lee got better, he moved up from a bad lf to a avg defensive lf.
2. PK took a step back??? He is still the best defensive 1b the sox have.
3. Wouldn't consider C-Lee having "Strong base-running skills" He is faster than PK, but nobody on the Sox has "Strong base running skills.

Iwritecode
12-05-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The point is, you can't just look at PK vs. Perez and ask whether it's a good trade - it's more complicated than that. You have to consider the salary implications as well, plain and simple.

Which is really sad. I've always liked PK cause he seems like a real down-to-earth blue-collar kinda guy.

The truth is yes, he did have a few good years before the horrible past 1.5 years. It's also possible that he'll return to those numbers next year. But the fact remains that with the teams self-imposed budget, it's going to be extremely difficult to keep him on the team and still remain competitive.

Maybe if KW wouldn't have given him the huge contract he currently has, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now.

Hindsight is always 20/20 though...

Rocky Soprano
12-05-2003, 02:45 PM
CLee hands down.

I like Double Play Konerko but if we need to get rid of one then I say buy to Konerko.

CLee is younger, faster, and had a career year last year.

CLee may only get better while it seems that Konerko might only get worse.

He will be missed but time to pull a trade if possible.

Iwritecode
12-05-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
nobody on the Sox has "Strong base running skills.

Which really hurts the team in 1-run games. They need to start getting more players that can actually move from first to third on a single to the right side. PK just happens to be the one that makes the most money.

Stoky44
12-05-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano


CLee is younger, faster, and had a career year last year.


Paulie is only 3 months onlder, can't say that's really younger.

Dub25
12-05-2003, 03:01 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stoky44
Defensively they are prob about equal as well. C-lee has gotten much better is the of, but Paulie is pretty good himself, I love the 1-6-1 double play

Wow Paulie can pitch and play first and hit into DP's. Maybe we shouldn't trade him.

FanOf14
12-05-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by DannyCaterFan
Believe me, Paul is one of my favorite Sox players. I was there in Minnesota that day in September of 2000 when he circled the bases with a beer after they clinched the division title that year. I never thought I would be saying he should be traded, but after watching him clog up the bases last year, he has to go if it is a choice between him and Carlos Lee. He is too damn slow! Hopefully, we can find a way to keep him around, but if his trade can help the team, then I say farewell and good luck.

My feelings precisely. :smile:

soxnut
12-05-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
Paulie is only 3 months onlder, can't say that's really younger.

Yeah but Konerko runs like he's 30 YEARS older :smile:

Tekijawa
12-05-2003, 03:08 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Base Circling Beer!

:bart


I can't believe there are no Homer Simpson tags!?!?!?

cornball
12-05-2003, 03:09 PM
Both are very streaky hitters. When CLee is hot he is hot and when cold he is cold. PK is pretty good defensively but so slow. I love his character, and because what he does at local benefits (more than any other Sox player).

Unfortuantely, I am afraid PK is going to have to go because of too much salary. CL may too if the return is good enough.

ssang
12-05-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
I know I am one of the few Sox fans who still really likes Paulie and doesn't want to see him get traded, maybe it just because ever since he ran around the bases with a beer when we clinched the central he has been my favorite player. Paulie is fairly young. He had a few bad months. I think he has potential to be +.300, +25HRs, and +95 RBI's. That's not worth 8 mil, but we pay Jose 5 mil. I don't understand all the love for C-lee and hate for Paulie. I will be the first to admit the he had a bad year last year. But one bad year doesn't = bad player.

How much do you plan on signing C-Lee for when he wants a contract?

Most are acting like C-Lee is going to be great after one very good year and say Paulie is done after one bad year. If one great year = great career. All i will say is Jose, Greg norton, and the milkman each had one really good year.

Look at Paulies average stats from 1999-2002 seasons
BA. 294; 26 HRs; 95 RBI; 75 SO; 48 BB;

Last years for C-Lee (could be considered career year not what will be avg numbers for him)
.291 BA; 31 HRs; 113RBI; 91 SO; 37 BB


Look at those numbers. Before everyone starts saying Paulie is so bad and C-Lee is better. Don't get me wrong I like C-lee and I hope he has another great year. But, face it sometimes guys have one awesome year and come back down to earth. Look at Paulie avgs over 4 yrs compared to C-lee's one great year. Paulie higher average, more walks, and fewer strikeouts. If you take Paulie's best year and compare it to C-Lee's last year Paulie has more HRs in a season (32), a higher OBP, and a higher SLG. In fact C-lee's last years OBP was .331 in 99-02 Paul was higher in evey year with .349 being his lowest. Look at SLG last year C-lee had a .499 as for Paul he had a higher SLG twice in those 4 yrs and had a .498 another year.

Lets face it Paulie had a bad year, but he will come back. Why is C-Lee seen as a better keep? Offensively I believe Paulie has prooven more. Both guys are the same age. Both seem to be good guys. Defensively they are prob about equal as well. C-lee has gotten much better is the of, but Paulie is pretty good himself, I love the 1-6-1 double play, something Frank could never do.

I am not saying that Paul is more worth keeping than C-lee, but I don't think Paulie is as bad as everyone thinks. How much will C-Lee want to make in a contract in the open market? If anyone says anything higher than 7mil you are a hypocrite for saying Paulie makes too much money.

If we have to trade him b/c of money I say we hold on to him for a while. He generally starts off with very good April and May numbers. Trade him then and you will get more. But I am going to be one of the few Sox fans who wants to keep Paulie around.

Dude.....there's no comparison. Not only is Lee a much better hitter (KONERKO WAS PATHETIC LAST YEAR IN EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME.......and NO, he did not have a great 2nd half), Lee is not making 8 mil a year! End of story.

daveeym
12-05-2003, 03:45 PM
konerko

SEASONAL AVERAGES (per 162 games played)
Years G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
5 162 571 80 159 30 1 26 95 50 79 1 0 .279 .342 .470 .812
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5908&context=batting

lee

SEASONAL AVERAGES (per 162 games played)
Years G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
4.49 162 610 96 173 35 2 27 101 45 92 12 5 .284 .334 .480 .814
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6161&context=batting

Courtesy espn.com

So i don't know where those people who say konerko is much better and more consistent, minus last year, and that CLee's last year was his career year are getting their stats from (yes last year was Lee's best but his others weren't far off), but CLee has better career numbers for the most part and while. Granted not by much.

idseer
12-05-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
... maybe it just because ever since he ran around the bases with a beer when we clinched the central he has been my favorite player. ...

say what? :?:

Realist
12-05-2003, 06:30 PM
One thing I like about both of them is that they both bust their behinds. Carlos Lee set out to disprove his detractors that claimed he was bad defensively and didn't hustle. He succeeded. His defensive improved dramaticly, and his work ethic showed on the field and when he was at the plate. The most painful thing about watching Paulie's horrendous season was the fact that you could tell how bad he was pressing. I was really pulling for him 'cause I like him too.

Paulie is still kinda young and who knows, he may yet mature or get his head on straight enough to minimize the streakiness of his at bat success. I think it's a crap shoot with Paulie but some gut instinct tells me that he's going to have the best year of his carreer in 2004.

Carlos Lee appears to be improving steadily every year and if he keeps up his recent work ethic, I believe he'll be better than Mags ever was (Mag's GIDPs KILL ME!!).

One thing I look for in a player is how he responds when the chips are down. If you remember that series against the Twins in late September (ouch!! Please God let me forget), the only two players that showed up were Carlos Lee and Carl Everett. Those are the guys I want on my team.

nodiggity59
12-05-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Stoky44
The only good thing I see about trading PK to LA is that he won't be able to kick our @#% until 3 more seasons when we face them again.

I am calling it now, PK will have a great year next year and a good career.

I dont care if he wins the batting title - the risk for him being on this team is too great for his price. Lee is probably an equal risk...but at a cheaper cost AND Konerko hurts Frank's consistency IMO.

Gumshoe
12-05-2003, 07:03 PM
I like both guys, but if you trade Carlos Lee, you better be getting a PROVEN starter, a real gamer, because that is what Lee is. A guy like Millwood would be a minimal example. I can't see KW trading Lee, because I think he at least has that much sense.

I understand the Konerko situation, but I still don't buy into Perez being that good. NL and 4.52 has me majorly worried if we give up a guy like Konerko. NL pitchers are big risks, unless they are the studs of the league. Do I have to quote examples? You might as well add about .70 or more to his ERA. In which case 5+ does not look that good.

Well, we'll see what KW pulls. It'll be sooner than later. Patience, he'll pull a boner

jordan23ventura
12-07-2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe

I understand the Konerko situation, but I still don't buy into Perez being that good. NL and 4.52 has me majorly worried if we give up a guy like Konerko. NL pitchers are big risks, unless they are the studs of the league. Do I have to quote examples? You might as well add about .70 or more to his ERA. In which case 5+ does not look that good.

Well, we'll see what KW pulls. It'll be sooner than later. Patience, he'll pull a boner


We have to dump major salary. It only makes sense to dump Paulie because we already have a more offensively productive 1B. Maggs has to go, no debate. Valentin is next. Koch is the easiest to keep only because a) who will take him? and b) he will most likely rebound to the flame throwing maniac that, even with 40+ saves a year, you still don't have confidence in in the 9th inning.

Paulie, like Koch, is about as tradeable as sickle-cell anemia in Switzerland. The fact that Evans might want him and will give us a pitcher is good enough. I, too, believe PK will hit his prime within the next two to three seasons but it can't be under our current furor. Perhaps if we get Perez and we don't want to take the chance on him we could trade him. Surely moving him for prospects would be easier than PK, and if that happened all of PK's salary would be gone. Next up is Maggs.

Deadguy
12-07-2003, 09:38 AM
Even before Slownerko fell flat on his face in the first half of the season, I preferred Lee.

When you look at their overall numbers, they are somewhat similar.

However, when you take a closer look at their splits, you will see that Konerko is notorious for completely disappearing at least 1 month per season.

That is fine if you are a rookie, or play a position where offense isn't that important. However, Konerko is supposed to be in the prime of his career, a team "leader", and one of the highest paid players on the team.

He is someone we just can't rely on to give us consistent production. We have no idea whether we'll have a player of a week, or a guy who goes 3 for 48 over a three week stretch. Lee at least is someone who we know won't completely disappear for a month, and hit .150 with no power. That is something that GIDPaul has done plenty of times in his career.

I pray that someone is dumb enough to take this reject. With our budgetary constraints, it was beyond stupid to give someone like Konerko a fat contract, especially since he is so easilly replaceable and has never really had a season where he's been one of the two most valuable players on his own team.

Deadguy
12-07-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Stoky44
The only good thing I see about trading PK to LA is that he won't be able to kick our @#% until 3 more seasons when we face them again.

I am calling it now, PK will have a great year next year and a good career.

He had the worst year of his career at an age when most players have career years (27).

Unless you have some insider knowledge that he has started taking steroids, I have no idea why you think he's going to have a great year next year.