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joecrede
12-04-2003, 09:03 AM
Konerko-for-Perez appears to be a real posibility.

From Today's LA Times . . . (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodgers4dec04,1,2690443.story?coll=la-headlines-sports)

Konerko, 27, also is under contract through 2005 at salaries of $8 million and $8.75 million, respectively, the going rate for a young, run-producing first baseman.

Uh ... yeah that is the going rate alright. In fact it is such a bargain the Sox shouldn't feel obligated to pick-up any of it. :D:

Frater Perdurabo
12-04-2003, 09:07 AM
Please let this be true.

Brian26
12-04-2003, 09:12 AM
Great quote from Kenny:

"All I will say with regard to Paul Konerko is this: The guy has only had three bad months, probably since he was in Little League.

LOL.

Is he talking about the real-life Konerko or the Konerko he uses while playing All-Star Baseball 2004?

Sell us on Konerko, KW.

hold2dibber
12-04-2003, 09:23 AM
I'm going to try real hard not to get my hopes up on this one - it sounds too good to be true.

Hondo
12-04-2003, 09:34 AM
I don't care if we just get some prospects for him. I just want to see that contract and those GIDP's gone.

joecrede
12-04-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm going to try real hard not to get my hopes up on this one - it sounds too good to be true.

I hear ya, but the Twins were able to unload Eric Milton and his $9M(!) There is hope. :smile:

Palehose13
12-04-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Konerko-for-Perez appears to be a real posibility.

Please, baseball gods, please....

JRIG
12-04-2003, 09:53 AM
If this goes through, (please) how about Jeremy Giambi as a cheap DH option? He was hurt almost all of last year, but has power, will get on base, and is a left-handed stick in the lineup. As long as he never touches the field with a glove on, we'll be fine. Frank can play first and Giambi should come very very cheap.

Palehose13
12-04-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
If this goes through, (please) how about Jeremy Giambi as a cheap DH option? He was hurt almost all of last year, but has power, will get on base, and is a left-handed stick in the lineup. As long as he never touches the field with a glove on, we'll be fine. Frank can play first and Giambi should come very very cheap.

What about resigning Everett and having a Lee/Everett LF/DH platoon with a Thomas/Daubach 1B/DH platoon?

Before you burn me, I am talking before knowing how much a Perez/Everett salary combo would be...What is Perez making?

cornball
12-04-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Konerko-for-Perez appears to be a real posibility.

From Today's LA Times . . . (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodgers4dec04,1,2690443.story?coll=la-headlines-sports)



Uh ... yeah that is the going rate alright. In fact it is such a bargain the Sox shouldn't feel obligated to pick-up any of it. :D:

Nice catch, I hope it can happen.

fledgedrallycap
12-04-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
What about resigning Everett and having a Lee/Everett LF/DH platoon with a Thomas/Daubach 1B/DH platoon?

Before you burn me, I am talking before knowing how much a Perez/Everett salary combo would be...What is Perez making?

Perez made 3.4 Million last year. I have no idea the extent of his contract after that.

Palehose13
12-04-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Perez made 3.4 Million last year. I have no idea the extent of his contract after that.

So there is the possibility of having Perez and Everett for about the same price as Konerko?

Sounds good to me...

I am now tempted to try and crunch numbers at lunch, but if we could sign Bartolo and pull off this trade our rotation would be (in no particular order)
Buerhle, Loaiza, Colon, Perez, Garland.

Looks really good to me. :smile:

I must be on something to be talking crazy like this! :gulp:

joecrede
12-04-2003, 10:26 AM
If this trade happens I wonder if they wouldn't seriously consider dealing Buehrle in order to fill a hole or two and use the savings (maybe $2M?) in salary to sign Colon. Giving a top four starters of Colon/Loaiza/Perez/Garland?

Rocky Soprano
12-04-2003, 10:27 AM
If Colon stays and we get Perez and sign Everett, then actually next year wont be too bad.

Its nice to finally have some hope of some good things. I really hope this deal goes through.

:smile:

fledgedrallycap
12-04-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I am now tempted to try and crunch numbers at lunch, but if we could sign Bartolo and pull off this trade our rotation would be (in no particular order)
Buerhle, Loaiza, Colon, Perez, Garland.

Looks really good to me. :smile:


With a rotation like that, I don't care who the hell is playing the field... :D:

JRIG
12-04-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
If Colon stays and we get Perez and sign Everett, then actually next year wont be too bad.

Its nice to finally have some hope of some good things. I really hope this deal goes through.

:smile:

Yeah...but...the entire point of moving Konerko is not to open up new payroll to be used, but to cut the current payroll. If he is traded, that just means we're out from under his albatross of a contract. It doesn't mean we'll have money to sign Everett and Colon and another FA. We still will have to be in the mindset of guys like Jeremy Giambi, Stairs, etc. Low risk/high reward kind of signings. At least that's my take on the situation.

Rocky Soprano
12-04-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Yeah...but...the entire point of moving Konerko is not to open up new payroll to be used, but to cut the current payroll. If he is traded, that just means we're out from under his albatross of a contract. It doesn't mean we'll have money to sign Everett and Colon and another FA. We still will have to be in the mindset of guys like Jeremy Giambi, Stairs, etc. Low risk/high reward kind of signings. At least that's my take on the situation.


More than likely you are right, but I want to dream. :gulp:

Jeremy would be a great cheap pick-up IMO, so I wouldnt mind seeing that happen.

skottyj242
12-04-2003, 10:37 AM
Why is everyone so excited about this trade. Perez isn't that good to begin with and he pitched in a pitchers ballpark. I for one am totally against this trade. Viva La Konerko!!!!

Palehose13
12-04-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Yeah...but...the entire point of moving Konerko is not to open up new payroll to be used, but to cut the current payroll. If he is traded, that just means we're out from under his albatross of a contract. It doesn't mean we'll have money to sign Everett and Colon and another FA. We still will have to be in the mindset of guys like Jeremy Giambi, Stairs, etc. Low risk/high reward kind of signings. At least that's my take on the situation.

Party pooper :(:

FanOf14
12-04-2003, 10:55 AM
Well, I've been saying for 3 months (or so) that Kenny should talk to the Dodgers as they will be needing a firstbaseman and since PK came from there, there could be some interest...

Let's see if he can get it done and not get screwed at the same time.

Mammoo
12-04-2003, 11:33 AM
I see Perez was pissin' and moanin' :whiner: about run support last year. The list of best supported pitchers in the NL on ESPN.com has him 33rd out of 40, so he had a point.

I hope the deal goes through. I think he'll like the support he gets over here. :smile:

SoxxoS
12-04-2003, 12:16 PM
ESPN insider reports-

Dec. 4- Perez - The Dodgers reportedly are close to sending Perez to the White Sox in exchange for Paul Konerko. The L.A. Times cites two team sources who said Dodgers GM Dan Evans has had ongoing discussions with the White Sox about Konerko and that Chicago wants Perez in return. Previously, the Yankees and Cardinals had discussed acquiring Perez.

and

Dec. 4 - Konerko - The L.A. Times reports the Dodgers could be near agreement on a deal to bring Konerko back to L.A, where he began his career. The White Sox reportedly want Odalis Perez in exchange for the 27-year-old Konerko, who struggled last year after four solid seasons in Chicago.


Please baseball Gods, please.

SoxxoS
12-04-2003, 12:18 PM
From ESPN, they haven't updated it to the 2003-2004 season yet.


2002 Season
Originally perceived as a throw-in in the Gary Sheffield deal, Odalis Perez was the Dodgers' best starting pitcher last year. There were questions about his durability, especially when he went through a tough stretch around the All-Star break. However, the young lefthander got his second wind and fashioned a 2.42 ERA over his last 11 starts. He flirted with several no-hitters during the season and basically pitched like a future, if not present, staff ace.


Pitching
Perez has great stuff. His fastball tops out in the low 90s, but with a lot of late tailing action. He complements the heater with a good changeup and sharp curveball. He also has impressive command of the strike zone. Among qualifying National League starters, only Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson had higher strikeout-walk ratios than Perez (4.1). He knows how to pitch, something that shouldn't be so surprising considering he came out of the Atlanta organization.


Defense & Hitting
Perez is very agile and is quite adept at stabbing balls hit back through the box. He also gets off the mound quickly enough to make plays on soft grounders that other pitchers don't even attempt to field. His pickoff move is effectivehe nabbed nine opponents last year. He holds his own with the bat. Perez led the staff with 10 sacrifices and made contact in all but 14 plate appearances. When he does hit one into the outfield, he has the speed to take the extra base, as his five doubles tied for the league lead among pitchers.


2003 Outlook
Even Dodgers GM Dan Evans, who reportedly held out for Perez when the Braves were offering Kevin Millwood or Jason Marquis, couldn't have expected the kind of performance he got from his young lefty. If Perez can stay healthy, and it should be remembered that he missed the entire 2000 campaign due to elbow surgery, he should be one of the top young pitchers over the next half-decade. His combination of talent and a diablo-may-care attitude makes Perez look like a long-time winner.


Come on KW, you got to pull the trigger. This guy has OBVIOUS talent.

habibharu
12-04-2003, 12:26 PM
how bout getting brown instead? he has a similar salary to paulie

jeremyb1
12-04-2003, 12:35 PM
What's really amazing about this to me is that none of the reports mention anything about pickup up some of Paully's salary. Practically everyone who understands baseball's current financial situation has been of the opinion that moving Konerko's contract is an impossibility. Considering that there are only a handful of teams in baseball that are willing to take on salary and Paully's production was well below average for a 1B last season that made quite a bit of sense to me.

If this deal goes through, we should truly thank the baseball gods and Danny Evans should lose his job. First the Colon deal and now this. Clearly Sox fans aren't completely immune to good luck.

Gumshoe
12-04-2003, 12:52 PM
This is another KW trade flop waiting to happen.

Odalis Perez over the last 4 years :

4-6 6.00
7-8 4.91
15-10 3.00 ERA
12-12 4.52 ERA

Konerko over last 5:

.294 24 81
.298 21 97
.282 32 99
.304 27 104
.234 18 65

I would understand that you are going for pitching. But this guy had a


4.52 in the NL last year!. I remember when we faced him, we MURDERED him. Trading a solid hitter at list peak low value is generally not a good idea. I am very skeptical of this trade. In fact, I'd go on record and saying (if STRAIGHT UP) it would be a BAD trade. People dawg Jon Garland all the time on this board. Odalis Perez is NO better (and I doubt he's climbing potential).

Gumshoe

jeremyb1
12-04-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
This is another KW trade flop waiting to happen.

Odalis Perez over the last 4 years :

4-6 6.00
7-8 4.91
15-10 3.00 ERA
12-12 4.52 ERA

Konerko over last 5:

.294 24 81
.298 21 97
.282 32 99
.304 27 104
.234 18 65

I would understand that you are going for pitching. But this guy had a


4.52 in the NL last year!. I remember when we faced him, we MURDERED him. Trading a solid hitter at list peak low value is generally not a good idea. I am very skeptical of this trade. In fact, I'd go on record and saying (if STRAIGHT UP) it would be a BAD trade. People dawg Jon Garland all the time on this board. Odalis Perez is NO better (and I doubt he's climbing potential).

Gumshoe

You're completley missing the point. We don't even have enough money to keep the team together right now and Konerko has an albatross of a contract that was previously considered unmovable. If we can deal him the 5 million that frees up quite possibly allows us to keep Maggs and to sign a midlevel starter such as Ponson (or deal for one such as Livan Hernandez) if we can free up a little bit more money or if not, bolster ourselves at 2B, CF, or in the pen. If Perez is no good we could simply non tender him and free up another 3-4 million in payroll. Personally, I think he's worth keeping but that's beside the point. Any deal which allows us to move Paully's contract without taking on much salary in return is outstanding regardless of the talent we receive in return.

Tekijawa
12-04-2003, 01:04 PM
Perez will be heading to ARBITRATION this year and this ESPN article has him at possibly making $6 Million next year... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1677264 ... It's not as big a savings as one may think.

34 Inch Stick
12-04-2003, 01:06 PM
I agree that this board tends to undervalue Pauly. You would think that he had 4 bad years and only 1 good one. However his salary is above his market value, even if he was to have another 300, 30, 100. Also, you are trading a first baseman for pitching. Pauly is a bit better than Lee (the new Cub 1B not Carlos) and all the Marlins got in return was a fading first base prospect. Konerko's talents are much more replaceable than a quality starter.

Perez scares me a little with the arm problems and the high ERA in a pitchers park in the NL. However good young pitchers do not become available without some risk.

By the way what is Perez's salary situation?

joecrede
12-04-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Perez will be heading to ARBITRATION this year and this ESPN article has him at possibly making $6 Million next year... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1677264 ... It's not as big a savings as one may think.

Non-tender him, deal him, or (best option perhaps) deal Buehrle then. Just get rid of Paully Kontracto.

jeremyb1
12-04-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Non-tender him, deal him, or (best option perhaps) deal Buehrle then. Just get rid of Paully Kontracto.

I wouldn't deal Buehrle who figures to make less in arbitration just to keep Perez who doesn't appear to be as good as Buehrle or at a minimum is a much bigger risk. That said the 6 million dollar estimate for Perez seems huge. He only made 3.4 million last season and regressed. Doubling his salary under those circumstances in a depressed market seems absurd. However, as I said, non-tender Perez and its still an incredible deal.

joecrede
12-04-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I wouldn't deal Buehrle who figures to make less in arbitration just to keep Perez who doesn't appear to be as good as Buehrle or at a minimum is a much bigger risk. That said the 6 million dollar estimate for Perez seems huge. He only made 3.4 million last season and regressed. Doubling his salary under those circumstances in a depressed market seems absurd. However, as I said, non-tender Perez and its still an incredible deal.

I'm operating under the assumption that Buehrle and Perez will both make in the neighborhood of $5M next year. If the Sox somehow did re-sign Colon would you consider a Buehrle-for-J.D. Drew deal? If Colon doesn't goes elsewhere I'd lean toward keeping Buehrle.

jeremyb1
12-04-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'm operating under the assumption that Buehrle and Perez will both make in the neighborhood of $5M next year. If the Sox somehow did re-sign Colon would you consider a Buehrle-for-J.D. Drew deal? If Colon doesn't goes elsewhere I'd lean toward keeping Buehrle.

I think Buehrle is too important to the future. He still has two years left on his deal after this one. Drew is pretty good but has major injuries problems. Even if we resign Colon, I still think Buehrle is a key to the rotation. A rotation of Loaiza/Buehrle/Colon/Perez/Garland would be a huge strength. I wouldn't want to break that up just to upgrade CF.

kempsted
12-04-2003, 03:43 PM
Perez FYI - His SNWAP (Support Neutral wins vs Average Replacement) has him at 2.2. As a reference point Buehrle was 2.1 as was John Garland. This already takes ballpark into account.

His WHIP was 1.28 which puts him ahead of Buehrle and Garland as well (who were 1.35 and 1.37 respectivly).

His K/9 were 6.89. Colon was 6.43, Buehrle 4.65 and Garland 5.07
His K/BB was 2.82 which puts him ahead of Colon at 2.47, Buehrle at 1.89 and Garland at 1.44.

His BB/9 is 2.22 which would lead all of our starters - Tied with Loaiza at 2.22, and ahead of Buehrle at 2.38, Colon at 2.49 and Garland at 3.47

This would be an absolute steal. He is the typical pitcher who is undervalued by traditional stats but looks good at the ones that are really in a pitchers control.

Hope it happens :gulp: :gulp:

voodoochile
12-04-2003, 03:47 PM
Hey, whether the trade happens or not, I do like the way the Sox are now talking UP the guys they are trying to trade instead of the negative stuff they would say in the past.

Instead of, "So-and-so needs to go because they don't play good baseball" it has become, "Paulie has only had 3 bad months in his career, we hate to lose such a prodigious talent."

Can't hurt to try anyway... :D:

fledgedrallycap
12-04-2003, 04:01 PM
Just heard that talks have been confirmed about this deal on ESPN 1000.....

bc2k
12-04-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Just heard that talks have been confirmed about this deal on ESPN 1000.....

Uh, by "confirmed" are you saying that the Sox and Dodgers have admitted to discussing this potential trade, or that this deal has been completed?

fledgedrallycap
12-04-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Uh, by "confirmed" are you saying that the Sox and Dodgers have admitted to discussing this potential trade, or that this deal has been completed?

Just the admission of talks are taking place. No deal complete.

Hangar18
12-04-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
If Colon stays and we get Perez and sign Everett, then actually next year wont be too bad.

Its nice to finally have some hope of some good things. I really hope this deal goes through.

:smile:

YES YES YES. I agree. Finally, something Finally Looks Good around here. WWHD ? (what would hendry do?) he'd unload
Konerko, and somehow STILL shore up our holes.
If we can somehow keep/get Colon/Perez/Everett in uniform
for 2004, this team will be LOOKING VERY GOOD. ID PICK US
to win the division for sure then ...

jabrch
12-04-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
You're completley missing the point. We don't even have enough money to keep the team together right now and Konerko has an albatross of a contract that was previously considered unmovable. If we can deal him the 5 million that frees up quite possibly allows us to keep Maggs and to sign a midlevel starter such as Ponson (or deal for one such as Livan Hernandez) if we can free up a little bit more money or if not, bolster ourselves at 2B, CF, or in the pen. If Perez is no good we could simply non tender him and free up another 3-4 million in payroll. Personally, I think he's worth keeping but that's beside the point. Any deal which allows us to move Paully's contract without taking on much salary in return is outstanding regardless of the talent we receive in return.

EXACTAMUNDO!

That's it - in a nutshell Jeremy. I knew we'd eventually agree on something. This deal enables us to POSSIBLY not have to trade someone else down the road to save money.

voodoochile
12-04-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
EXACTAMUNDO!

That's it - in a nutshell Jeremy. I knew we'd eventually agree on something. This deal enables us to POSSIBLY not have to trade someone else down the road to save money.

They should be able to keep Maggs or deal him salary for salary like in the BoSox rumor if they can unload Konerko.

bc2k
12-04-2003, 04:35 PM
Does anyone know where to find quality start numbers? I ask because I think it would help in our evaluation of Perez. 12 wins with the anemic Dodger offense is saying something. He started 30 games last year and won 12, giving him wins in 40% of games pitched.

Without looking at his ERA, I'd think that Perez performed well. But his ERA does throw me off. I'm guessing that in the games he wins, he dominates the opposition; in games he loses, he gets lit up. This is the only conclusion I can come up with as to why his ERA is so high.

SoxxoS
12-04-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
Perez FYI - His SNWAP (Support Neutral wins vs Average Replacement) has him at 2.2. As a reference point Buehrle was 2.1 as was John Garland. This already takes ballpark into account.

His WHIP was 1.28 which puts him ahead of Buehrle and Garland as well (who were 1.35 and 1.37 respectivly).

His K/9 were 6.89. Colon was 6.43, Buehrle 4.65 and Garland 5.07
His K/BB was 2.82 which puts him ahead of Colon at 2.47, Buehrle at 1.89 and Garland at 1.44.

His BB/9 is 2.22 which would lead all of our starters - Tied with Loaiza at 2.22, and ahead of Buehrle at 2.38, Colon at 2.49 and Garland at 3.47

This would be an absolute steal. He is the typical pitcher who is undervalued by traditional stats but looks good at the ones that are really in a pitchers control.

Hope it happens :gulp: :gulp:

Great post kemp. That is why Odalis is a talent. This guy is one year removed from a great year. Paulie is one year removed from an above average half, not to mention 1Baseman are about 30x easier to find than pitchers. This would be an absolute steal.

Tekijawa
12-04-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I'm guessing that in the games he wins, he dominates the opposition; in games he loses, he gets lit up. This is the only conclusion I can come up with as to why his ERA is so high.

I would like to add that in games he wins the other team scores less runs than the Dodgers and when he losses they score more, this is just my theroy though!

SoxxoS
12-04-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Does anyone know where to find quality start numbers? I ask because I think it would help in our evaluation of Perez. 12 wins with the anemic Dodger offense is saying something. He started 30 games last year and won 12, giving him wins in 40% of games pitched.

Without looking at his ERA, I'd think that Perez performed well. But his ERA does throw me off. I'm guessing that in the games he wins, he dominates the opposition; in games he loses, he gets lit up. This is the only conclusion I can come up with as to why his ERA is so high.

And ERA is overrated for that exact reason. I thinks its an average barometer of a pitchers performance, but by no means the be all and end all.

SoxOnTop
12-04-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'm operating under the assumption that Buehrle and Perez will both make in the neighborhood of $5M next year. If the Sox somehow did re-sign Colon would you consider a Buehrle-for-J.D. Drew deal? If Colon doesn't goes elsewhere I'd lean toward keeping Buehrle.


You do NOT trade a young, good, cheap starter.

SoxxoS
12-04-2003, 05:05 PM
Raise your hand if you think Perez is going to get 6 million per in arbitration, like Boston Gammons reported...

Me neither.

5 million, tops.

joecrede
12-04-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
You do NOT trade a young, good, cheap starter.

If you think that starter has reached his peak you do.

Buehrle regressed last year and he's thrown a lot of innings at a young age. He's pretty far from a sure bet to perform like a #2 starter next year IMO.

Frater Perdurabo
12-04-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
YES YES YES. I agree. Finally, something Finally Looks Good around here. WWHD ? (what would hendry do?) he'd unload
Konerko, and somehow STILL shore up our holes.
If we can somehow keep/get Colon/Perez/Everett in uniform
for 2004, this team will be LOOKING VERY GOOD. ID PICK US
to win the division for sure then ...

Forget Everett. Sign Ponson instead.

If the PK for Perez trade happens, and if Colon is resigned, then your rotation is:
Colon
Buehrle
Loaiza
Perez
Ponson

Garland comes out of the bullpen. Put Borchard in CF just for his defense and the Sox are favorites to win the division. Best Sox pitching staff at least since 94 and probably as good as, if not better than 83 IMHO.

Tekijawa
12-04-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Forget Everett. Sign Ponson instead.

If the PK for Perez trade happens, and if Colon is resigned, then your rotation is:
Colon
Buehrle
Loaiza
Perez
Ponson

Garland comes out of the bullpen. Put Borchard in CF just for his defense and the Sox are favorites to win the division. Best Sox pitching staff at least since 94 and probably as good as, if not better than 83 IMHO.

Why waste the money on Ponson, even if some how this all did come together (there is NO WAY there would be enough money left over after this to sign Ponson OR Everet) Why would you move garland to the pen? If you for some reason did have money to spend on Ponson or Everett I think that the Bullpen would need to be restocked before signing any of those two!

guillen4life13
12-04-2003, 05:58 PM
Everett isn't coming back here, so stop wishing. Same goes with Colon. I doubt Ponson will come either (and honestly, I think Ponson is a liability who had a career year last year, and I'd rather not have him).


Here is a somewhat realistic rotation for next year:

Buehrle
Loaiza (watch him flop!)
Perez
Garland
Wright/Rauch/Pacheco



I think I am either starting, or joining the club in favor of a complete rebuilding mode, and this time, let's get it done right!

No more trading away top prospects for short term solutions to non-existent problems. Make good draft picks.


The Colon deal was great, but I keep asking myself this question: why did the Sox have to trade Biddle, and why is it that other teams are able to judge our prospects better than our own personnel?



But, this whole process much begin with one important thing for it to even stand a chance of succeeding.

:sellreinsy

Man Soo Lee
12-04-2003, 06:00 PM
I would be shocked if this happens without cash or a prospect going to LA.

jeremyb1
12-04-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Forget Everett. Sign Ponson instead.

If the PK for Perez trade happens, and if Colon is resigned, then your rotation is:
Colon
Buehrle
Loaiza
Perez
Ponson

Garland comes out of the bullpen. Put Borchard in CF just for his defense and the Sox are favorites to win the division. Best Sox pitching staff at least since 94 and probably as good as, if not better than 83 IMHO.

Signing Colon and Ponson is at least 16 million, I don't see where that money is going to come from. I'd say at most we free up 4 million if this deal were to happen without sending cash to LA.

Win1ForMe
12-04-2003, 06:59 PM
If we hope to resign Colon, I don't know if we could take Perez back in return. I'm assuming if we get Perez, we won't see Bartolo back. We would still have to find a replacement for Paulie (Spiezio?) which will cost some money.

Hondo
12-04-2003, 07:08 PM
I like Travis Lee @ first base. Good value for his contract

Daver
12-04-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
If you think that starter has reached his peak you do.

Buehrle regressed last year and he's thrown a lot of innings at a young age. He's pretty far from a sure bet to perform like a #2 starter next year IMO.

Would like to share with the class on how he regressed? Cause I didn't see it.

And what does the number of innings he has thrown compared to his age supposed to mean?

OfficerKarkovice
12-04-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Would like to share with the class on how he regressed? Cause I didn't see it.

And what does the number of innings he has thrown compared to his age supposed to mean?

Regress:

1. To go back; move backward.
2. To return to a previous, usually worse or less developed state.
3. To have a tendency to approach or go back to a statistical mean.


2002 vs. 2003

Wins - 19 down to 14

Losses - 12 up to 14

ERA - 3.58 up to 4.14

CG - 5 down to 2

SO - 2 down to 0

IP - 239 down to 230

Hits - 236 up to 250

Runs - 102 up to 124



I'm going to have to go with joecrede here and say he definately "regressed."

JDP
12-04-2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Would like to share with the class on how he regressed? Cause I didn't see it.


Not only last year, but in the last two years since his break-out 2001 season:

IP/H
2001: 221.1 / 188
2002: 239.0 / 236
2003: 230.1 / 250

BB/K
2001: 48/126
2002: 61/134
2003: 61/119

ERA
2001: 3.29
2002: 3.58
2003: 4.14

W-L
2001: 16-8
2002: 19-12
2003: 14-14

CG/SHO
2001: 4/2
2002: 5/2
2003: 2/0

Inconsistent wins, increasingly more losses, around the same IP with less CG's and SHO's, alarming number of H's per IP increasing, a steadily rising ERA and worsening BB/K ratio.


Buehrle is slowly regressing towards being a decent #2 starter on a rotation of a team that expects/wants to go anywhere, to being a middle-of-the rotation #3 starter. Perhaps the previous poster's comment on IP's is in reference to the number of innings he has thrown in this young career already and it possibly taking its toll. Following Buehrle's stat-line trend from '01 to last year, one can genuinely surmise that this will be his '04 season:

15-15, 4.50, 230 IP, 260 H, 61/115 BB/K

Sure, he's cheap now, but what about come '05 and beyond? Will he be worth paying what he'll want then? The trend of throwing 220+ innings is nice, but take a look at his number of CG's; that has to signify either misuse, fatigue, non-gamer personality or a combination of all three.

bc2k
12-04-2003, 08:25 PM
This disturbing Buehrle trend was first discussed here. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26538&highlight=buehrle)

DirtySouthsider
12-04-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice
Regress:

1. To go back; move backward.
2. To return to a previous, usually worse or less developed state.
3. To have a tendency to approach or go back to a statistical mean.


2002 vs. 2003

Wins - 19 down to 14

Losses - 12 up to 14

ERA - 3.58 up to 4.14

CG - 5 down to 2

SO - 2 down to 0

IP - 239 down to 230

Hits - 236 up to 250

Runs - 102 up to 124



I'm going to have to go with joecrede here and say he definately "regressed."


Numbers don't always tell the entire story. If you watched him pitch all of last season you know he got off to a horrible start. But he was able to correct that and go on to have a very good second half.....and be the pitcher he was in 2001. He is still very young and you could make an argument that he was able to learn alot from last season.......but by no means would I give up on a very good,cheap, young LEFT-HANDED pitcher. Pitching is way to hard to come by these days.....and what would you want in return?....more prospects......that's just a crap shoot!!

bc2k
12-04-2003, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
Numbers don't always tell the entire story. If you watched him pitch all of last season you know he got off to a horrible start. But he was able to correct that and go on to have a very good second half.....and be the pitcher he was in 2001. He is still very young and you could make an argument that he was able to learn alot from last season.......but by no means would I give up on a very good,cheap, young LEFT-HANDED pitcher. Pitching is way to hard to come by these days.....and what would you want in return?....more prospects......that's just a crap shoot!!

His best year was the year he had David Wells in his ear. Coincidence? Not according to Buerhle's own words. Bring back David Wells.

DirtySouthsider
12-04-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
His best year was the year he had David Wells in his ear. Coincidence? Not according to Buerhle's own words. Bring back David Wells.


I hope you're kidding! That may be the worst suggestion I have ever read on here. Keep his fat ass away from this team and this city. All he cares about is being a Yankee!

Hondo
12-04-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
His best year was the year he had David Wells in his ear. Coincidence? Not according to Buerhle's own words. Bring back David Wells.


I'm afraid if Wells was in his ear he'd be saying stuff like to Buerhle like

"You should Super Size that"

"Why don't you make it a double" or

"Nobody pays attention to curfew"

JoseCanseco6969
12-04-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
I hope you're kidding! That may be the worst suggestion I have ever read on here. Keep his fat ass away from this team and this city. All he cares about is being a Yankee!

Actually, it might not be a huge impossibility. Wells isnt wanted in NY and he proved he still can play. Maybe the fat ass has one solid year left in him. I wouldnt mind seeing him a 4th starter or even 5th if he was willing to. I'm sure he wants to prove the boss wrong for letting him go. Dont jump all over me but he might be pretty cheap now and possibly valuable for our patchwork team.

joecrede
12-04-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Would like to share with the class on how he regressed? Cause I didn't see it.

And what does the number of innings he has thrown compared to his age supposed to mean?

Karko and JDP did a very nice job presenting the evidence of Buehrle's regression. (I owe ya one guys :gulp: ) I'd also add that Buehrle had a stretch of starts in the first half where his velocity dropped a couple MPH's. He eventually regained it, but that could be a sign of a physical problem.

(Assuming Konerko is dealt for Perez.) Will Buehrle have a better '04 than Perez? Most likely, but will it be so much better as to negate the talent the Sox could get in return for Buehrle? I think that's debatable. Or will Buehrle have that much better of an '04 than Garland? Allowing Perez to move in to a #3-4 slot.

Just thinking of some different ideas ...

Daver
12-04-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Karko and JDP did a very nice job presenting the evidence of Buehrle's regression. (I owe ya one guys :gulp: ) I'd also add that Buehrle had a stretch of starts in the first half where his velocity dropped a couple MPH's. He eventually regained it, but that could be a sign of a physical problem.



If what they presented is proof of regression I wish we could clone Mark and have him pitch every game,all he has shown so far is the learning curve of any young MLB pitcher.Ignore the numbers,and watch his pitch location,both at the beginning as well as late in games,this tells you the story far better than any numbers do.

I won't even comment on the so called velocity drop,simply because gun readings have absolutely no value when gauging a control pitcher.

For that matter the radar gun should be banned from baseball on all levels.

RKMeibalane
12-04-2003, 09:48 PM
PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST! PUT FRANK AT FIRST!

(runs away to hide)

ScottyTheSoxFan
12-04-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by JoseCanseco6969
Actually, it might not be a huge impossibility. Wells isnt wanted in NY and he proved he still can play. Maybe the fat ass has one solid year left in him. I wouldnt mind seeing him a 4th starter or even 5th if he was willing to. I'm sure he wants to prove the boss wrong for letting him go. Dont jump all over me but he might be pretty cheap now and possibly valuable for our patchwork team.

and then if the sox fall out of contention, come september fatboy wells will be again chilling in the NY clubhouse, under contract with the sox. no way jose(canseco6969)

kempsted
12-05-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


Without looking at his ERA, I'd think that Perez performed well. But his ERA does throw me off. I'm guessing that in the games he wins, he dominates the opposition; in games he loses, he gets lit up. This is the only conclusion I can come up with as to why his ERA is so high.

And you would have guessed right. He is on Baseball Prospectus list of top 20 Flakiest pitchers - i.e. a lot of variation in their game.

Baby Fisk
12-05-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by JoseCanseco6969
Actually, it might not be a huge impossibility. Wells isnt wanted in NY and he proved he still can play. Maybe the fat ass has one solid year left in him. I wouldnt mind seeing him a 4th starter or even 5th if he was willing to. I'm sure he wants to prove the boss wrong for letting him go. Dont jump all over me but he might be pretty cheap now and possibly valuable for our patchwork team.

No! No! No! Wells is a bloated, overhyped distraction for any team other than the Yankees. Everywhere else he goes, he moans and complains that it's not his beloved Yankee Stadium and how much he'd love to pitch there again. He only pitches his heart out when he's in Yankee pinstripes. The rest of the time he's useless. Didn't we fall for this guy once before? If the Yanks don't want him, he should hang em up.

:XL

"Don't forget to pick up a copy of my new exercise dvd: Extreme Boomer Pilates for the fat ass in your family. Makes a great gift this Christmas. Urrrp."

bennyw41
12-05-2003, 12:27 PM
I love paulie's personality and his interviews, but lets get serious, he is a one-dimensional player. This team has way too many DH's on it, and we need starting pitching. This is a great deal, and if iit goes through, we can bring up some young talent(gload, reed)

bc2k
12-06-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Konerko has an albatross of a contract that was previously considered unmovable.


Unlike Paulie, this is one ALBAtross that I wouldn't mind choking. :o:?
:messica

pappy
12-09-2003, 06:41 PM
ok so we wanna trade konerko who had one bad year for a cancer in the clubhouse who had one good year in 02'

nodiggity59
12-09-2003, 06:43 PM
WoW this deal seems like it was on the table forever ago.

Maybe that was just last week, before the Apocalypse.

soxfan26
12-09-2003, 07:49 PM
A rotation of:

Loiza
Buehrle
Perez
Garland

is better than a 1B/DH platoon of:

Konerko/Thomas

Get 'er done KW!

soxguy
12-09-2003, 10:15 PM
PLEASE say goodbye to mr. konerko. He is one dimensional, he is the slowest human being I have ever seen run to first base, he doesn't fit the new style(speed/defense) that ozzie wants to implement. we cannot afford his 4 month slumps anymore. We ABSOLUTELY need pitching , pitching, pitching. His high salary hopefully could be moved and the money spent elsewhere, like pitching, PITChing, PITCHING!