PDA

View Full Version : Insulted Intelligence


Tekijawa
12-01-2003, 12:03 PM
Any one else out side of me beginning to think that 3rd place in the central will be nice next year? I think right now I'm to the point that I'm ready to rebuild?!?!? If we make a Half-A$$ed attempt next year, which it appears we are doing, then what happens in 2005... by then Maggs will be gone, Buehrle will have one foot in St. Louis, Lee will be in the last year of Arbitration. Konerko Will be a FA again, Koch will be gone... What exactly are we holding on to at this point, especially if the Cubs are in the playoffs again this year, as they appear to be by filling holes that they need, unlike us who will be Cutting Top players to be able to "afford" to field a team... Why not just pare the Payroll all the way back to $30 Million like the Brewers and hope that Reed, Honel, Borchard, Munoz, Miles, Rauch, and all the other "top prospects" pan out by 2006?

The Sox are becoming that HOT girlfriend that Cheated on me about 700 times that I kept giving one more Chance because maybe this time she won't do it, mean while my worst enemy, cubs fans, is dating a very faithful Billionaire Model and rubbing it in my face every chance he gets, but hey at least the upper deck is shorter and has a nicer roof!

doogiec
12-01-2003, 12:38 PM
Isn't today December 1?

CHISOXFAN13
12-01-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Isn't today December 1?

Thank you. Can we maybe wait until after the winter meetings before we panic?

anewman35
12-01-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Any one else out side of me beginning to think that 3rd place in the central will be nice next year?

No.

It's far too early to say that. First off, we really don't have any idea yet what the rosters of the various teams will look like in 4 months. Besides that, there's no real way to know how any of the teams will play, even once we know the rosters. At this point last year, would anybody have given the Royals a chance? Also, there's no way to know how Ozzie as manager is going to work out. It could backfire horribly, or it could inspire the team to win, which Ozzie well knows is possible even with a low payroll. Basically, it's far too early to conceed anything. If we start off without a win in April, ok, then we're dead. Until then, if we can stay (at most) a few games away from first, which I think is quite possible, we're good til the end.

Remember, we might suck, but I don't see Kansas City or Minnesota improving either. Nothing is decided yet.

Tekijawa
12-01-2003, 12:53 PM
Here's what I'm Saying, with an somewhat substancial increase of 10-15 Mil this team could make a real run next year especially with th other teams shedding talent. Instead Maggs/Lee are on the trading blocks and we already have a Worse team than last years team at the end of the season. So my point is why not Go young? Although I really like Sandy Alomar, wouldn't that extra 500K that we spent on him instead of a Minor leaguer be better spent elsewhere, Last I checked we don't have a 2nd baseaman? Or Valentin's $5 Mil, We could have gotten Graffinino back and landed another SS for that and Still had money left over?

Why are we bringing back old guys at inflated prices when we can't afford to do it? I could see making these moves if we had the money but almost a million dollars for a backup Catcher? Us small market teams can't afford to do that...

Baby Fisk
12-01-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Any one else out side of me beginning to think that 3rd place in the central will be nice next year? I think right now I'm to the point that I'm ready to rebuild?!?!?

Don't panic yet. Remember, Ozzie will infuse all the ageing, unmotivated players with a New Winning Attitude©.



:ozzie:

**** Yeah! Lemme see you do some crunches, Frank! I love you man!

hold2dibber
12-01-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Any one else out side of me beginning to think that 3rd place in the central will be nice next year? I think right now I'm to the point that I'm ready to rebuild?!?!? If we make a Half-A$$ed attempt next year, which it appears we are doing, then what happens in 2005... by then Maggs will be gone, Buehrle will have one foot in St. Louis, Lee will be in the last year of Arbitration. Konerko Will be a FA again, Koch will be gone... What exactly are we holding on to at this point, especially if the Cubs are in the playoffs again this year, as they appear to be by filling holes that they need, unlike us who will be Cutting Top players to be able to "afford" to field a team... Why not just pare the Payroll all the way back to $30 Million like the Brewers and hope that Reed, Honel, Borchard, Munoz, Miles, Rauch, and all the other "top prospects" pan out by 2006?

The Sox are becoming that HOT girlfriend that Cheated on me about 700 times that I kept giving one more Chance because maybe this time she won't do it, mean while my worst enemy, cubs fans, is dating a very faithful Billionaire Model and rubbing it in my face every chance he gets, but hey at least the upper deck is shorter and has a nicer roof!

The way I see it, there's not much reason to be optimistic for 2004 at this point, and plenty of reasons to be pessimistic. But I for one am withholding judgment until I see what KW actually accomplishes this off season. The only things that are keeping me from being as pessimistic as you are: (1) there is going to be a lot of cheap talent available in a few weeks; (2) the Sox have a core of good talent; and (3) the AL Central is weak. But with the payroll constraints, the gaping hopes at several important positions, my distrust of Ozzie's managerial chops, and the fact that the team's core of good talent appears to have no heart, character or desire, make it more likely than not that next year will not be a good one.

bc2k
12-01-2003, 02:06 PM
Are the posters who claim it's too early in this offseason to worry about improving the team the same ones who said "it's still only May," and, "divisions aren't won in the month of May" after every Sox loss?

anewman35
12-01-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Are the posters who claim it's too early in this offseason to worry about improving the team the same ones who said "it's still only May," and, "divisions aren't won in the month of May" after every Sox loss?

It greatly helps to have a great start. It's not a necessity, though. Look at Florida last year for a great example of this - they were playing so bad they got their manager fired, but still made the playoffs.

Iwritecode
12-01-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Isn't today December 1?


Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13


Thank you. Can we maybe wait until after the winter meetings before we panic?

Yes, but in the shot period of time the following things have happened/been said:

1. It has been reported that the Sox 2004 payroll will not exceed 60 million dollars (this makes it nearly impossible to return the team that came within shouting distance of the division title last year much less improve it)
2. Bartolo Colon turned down an offer to return to the Sox and declared free agency (yes, it’s possible he’ll still return but it still puts a huge whole in the starting rotation)
3. Tom Gordon did the same (he won’t be a huge loss but he was still a pretty dependable arm in the BP last year)
4. Magglio turned down a multi-year contract extension and has been reported as being on the trading block because he makes too much money.
5. Paul Konerko and Billy Koch haven’t gotten any better and are still eating up 14 million dollars in payroll between the two of them.
6. Ozzie Guillen has been hired as the manager (this can be taken as a good or bad thing)

Overall, not exactly a whole lot to get excited about or look forward to is there??? I know there is still a lot of time left in the off-season but we’ve gone through 100’s of senarios here and not many of them seem good or even possible. Most of it stems back to #1 on my list. As long as that's still in effect and they aren't able to dump any salary, it's going to be extremely difficult for KW to make any significant moves...

Huisj
12-01-2003, 04:29 PM
while i understand the frustration of nothing happening, how many big things actually have happened? one big trade (schilling), on ok trade (sexson), one big signing (sheffield), and one medium signing (escobar). these are just off the top of my head, and maybe there are a few more things that have happened so far, but not many teams have done anything at all yet.

don't get me wrong, i'm worried, i'm as worried as anyone that the sox will suck next year. but it's early. things really just got started this past weekend to some extent.

btw, i wonder what ever happened to the "really big rumor" from a few weeks ago that no one knew what it was? must have been that the sox got sandy alomar back again, right?

Rocky Soprano
12-01-2003, 04:35 PM
Yes it doesnt look to good for next year but I refuse to give up on the Sox already. Who knows what may happen between today and the start of the season.

I rather be a bit optimistic that be depressed the entire off-season.

Let's Go Sox!

cornball
12-01-2003, 06:44 PM
I am laughing reading everyone's posts. It is early but I dont see a plan and that worries me.

Tekijawa
12-01-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I am laughing reading everyone's posts. It is early but I dont see a plan and that worries me.

Mr. Williams shouldn't you be finding us a 2nd baseman or front of the rotation pitcher? This is no time to post messages on the BEST WHITE SOX SITE out there!

SoxxoS
12-01-2003, 08:10 PM
Wow. More pessimism. Shocking.

bc2k
12-01-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Wow. More pessimism. Shocking.

Why are pessimistic viewpoints looked upon as bad? Have you ever heard the phrase, “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?” I forget how the phrase goes when one is fooled 86 times in a row.

SoxxoS
12-01-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Why are pessimistic viewpoints looked upon as bad? Have you ever heard the phrase, “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?” I forget how the phrase goes when one is fooled 86 times in a row.

Because it is December 1st and the season doesn't start for another 4 months, and we already have negative viewpoints on the season.

I put faith in KW, I think he will set us up nicely for the season. Let's see the moves he makes first before we right off '04, '05 and '06.

Maybe Jon Rauch will return to his minor league player of year form.

Maybe Jeremy Reed will have a huge impact and win rookie of the year.

Maybe Joe Borchard will wake up and be the player we all thought.

Maybe Konerko puts together a full season.

Maybe Koch goes back to the form he had 2 years ago.

Maybe Neal Cotts gets his control down.

Maybe Olivo breaks out offensively this year.

Maybe Colon will sign with us.

Oh, and we finally got rid of that goofy manager. The manager that we all really didn't like with a passion. The manager that lead us to 2nd place two years in a row, even when Bill James formula had us in 1st place both years. Yeah, he is gone.

Point is. WHO KNOWS. All this negativity and pessimism gets old quick. Forget the offseason. All this negativity should be saved for the season, when it will most likely be warranted. :smile:

santo=dorf
12-01-2003, 08:42 PM
where's that picture of the duck where the sky is falling?

chisoxjk
12-01-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Why are pessimistic viewpoints looked upon as bad? Have you ever heard the phrase, “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?” I forget how the phrase goes when one is fooled 86 times in a row.

Because it's easier to be a pessimist, especially when it comes to sports in this town. Your odds of being disappointed if you are a pessimist are very low based on past performances.

But we do need you pessimists. Think about it, if we all were optimists, why would JR & Co. try harder? We need you pessimists and your constant complaining.

So, while it can drive me crazy listening to all of the crabbing and moaning, here's to you. :gulp:

Never give up your lack of hope :smile:

Frank the Tank
12-01-2003, 09:00 PM
I am very sure that before everything is said and done this offseason, KW is going to create some optimism for the following season. Some of his deals don't materialize, but he always creates some sort of excitement and hope for the coming season. IMHO, there is going to be a much more positive tone on this forum come March.

Daver
12-01-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by santo=dorf
where's that picture of the duck where the sky is falling?


You mean this?

:chickenlittle

santo=dorf
12-01-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Daver
You mean this?

:chickenlittle

BEAUTIFUL!!! :)

Realist
12-02-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I am very sure that before everything is said and done this offseason, KW is going to create some optimism for the following season. Some of his deals don't materialize, but he always creates some sort of excitement and hope for the coming season. IMHO, there is going to be a much more positive tone on this forum come March.

I hope you're right. There hasn't been any good news since JM was fired. Who knows, maybe 85 wins will take the division in '04.

Then again, we did have "murders row" on paper last year. Maybe we'll get Colon back and Ozzie can get the team pulling together.

Aww crap. Now I'm starting to sound optomistic. :o:

StillMissOzzie
12-02-2003, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS


Maybe Jon Rauch will return to his minor league player of year form.

Maybe Jeremy Reed will have a huge impact and win rookie of the year.

Maybe Joe Borchard will wake up and be the player we all thought.

Maybe Konerko puts together a full season.

Maybe Koch goes back to the form he had 2 years ago.

Maybe Neal Cotts gets his control down.

Maybe Olivo breaks out offensively this year.

Maybe Colon will sign with us.

:smile:

Wow! I counted 8 "maybe"'s here. I sure KW has a rabbit up his sleeve, or a horseshoe up his a$$

SMO
:gulp:

doogiec
12-02-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Are the posters who claim it's too early in this offseason to worry about improving the team the same ones who said "it's still only May," and, "divisions aren't won in the month of May" after every Sox loss?

Actually no. The difference is that they actually need to play and win games in May. Every win in May counts as much as a win in September. However, I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict the White Sox record for the next 4 months. 0-0

While I recognize that some people believe that constant negativism makes them seem more knowledgeable than others, Sox fans need to look around the league and see what other teams are doing for some frame of reference. I don't see a lot of teams announcing that they will raise payroll next season. There is a huge group of free agents competing for less available dollars, meaning there will probably be some great deals out there in February. To date, we have lost one free agent (assuming the NYY Gordon deal is really done). But only three significant trades and a couple of free agent signings exist among all thirty teams. We're complaining about the rumored Ordonez trade, without having a clue as to what players we can get in return or what free agent we can sign with the additional money. Yet we know that last year's team was so streaky that an overhaul was needed. And it wasn't all Manuel's fault.

Don't the Sox give us enough to complain about without us having to make things up?

hold2dibber
12-02-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by doogiec
Actually no. The difference is that they actually need to play and win games in May. Every win in May counts as much as a win in September. However, I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict the White Sox record for the next 4 months. 0-0

While I recognize that some people believe that constant negativism makes them seem more knowledgeable than others, Sox fans need to look around the league and see what other teams are doing for some frame of reference. I don't see a lot of teams announcing that they will raise payroll next season. There is a huge group of free agents competing for less available dollars, meaning there will probably be some great deals out there in February. To date, we have lost one free agent (assuming the NYY Gordon deal is really done). But only three significant trades and a couple of free agent signings exist among all thirty teams. We're complaining about the rumored Ordonez trade, without having a clue as to what players we can get in return or what free agent we can sign with the additional money. Yet we know that last year's team was so streaky that an overhaul was needed. And it wasn't all Manuel's fault.

Don't the Sox give us enough to complain about without us having to make things up?

I don't consider myself to be a pessimistic Sox fan - hell, I can't tell you how many times I've been in arguments with my Dad, brother, uncles, aunts, etc. in which I've been accused of being a wild-eyed optimist about the Sox. But there is ample reason to be pessimistic this off season, and no need to make anything up to be that way. Let's talk only about what we know to be true as of right now:

(1) The Sox have repeatedly stated that payroll next year will be the same as payroll last year - i.e., less than $60 million.

(2) Right now, without so much as a single signing, the Sox projected payroll is about $65 million.

(3) Therefore, the Sox MUST dump salary just to get to their budget. In other words, even if the Sox were able to trade Konerko for a minor leaguer, that still wouldn't allow them to sign anyone new - that would just allow them to keep who they have now. And who they have now includes starting second baseman Aaron Miles, starting center fielder Aaron Rowand, a rotation featuring BOTH Jon Rauch and Neil Cotts, and a bullpen including Matt Ginter, Danny Wright, and Jon Adkins.

(4) Virtually all MLB teams are looking to dump salary; thus, there are very few teams that would be willing to take on the Sox' high salaried players.

Conclusion - it is going to be VERY difficult for the Sox to add the starting pitcher, lead-off hitter or bullpen help they so desperately need.

bobj4400
12-02-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS

Maybe Jon Rauch will return to his minor league player of year form.

Maybe Jeremy Reed will have a huge impact and win rookie of the year.

Maybe Joe Borchard will wake up and be the player we all thought.

Maybe Konerko puts together a full season.

Maybe Koch goes back to the form he had 2 years ago.

Maybe Neal Cotts gets his control down.

Maybe Olivo breaks out offensively this year.

Maybe Colon will sign with us.

:smile:

Shouldnt this all be in teal?

Tekijawa
12-02-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
Shouldnt this all be in teal?

I think it should be in Pink!

idseer
12-02-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS


Maybe Jon Rauch will return to his minor league player of year form.

Maybe Jeremy Reed will have a huge impact and win rookie of the year.

Maybe Joe Borchard will wake up and be the player we all thought.

Maybe Konerko puts together a full season.

Maybe Koch goes back to the form he had 2 years ago.

Maybe Neal Cotts gets his control down.

Maybe Olivo breaks out offensively this year.

Maybe Colon will sign with us.



maybe jon rauch will never regain his mlpoy form and be an injury-prone pitcher who's only accomplisment will be being the tallest player in the game.

maybe jeremy reed will be rushed to the sox and never fulfill his potential because he didn't get enough seasoning.

maybe joe borchard will continue to be unable to hit even minor league pitching and not even have the career duane josephson enjoyed here.

maybe konerko will never play again after injuring his hip the first week of spring training.

maybe koch has permanently ruined his pitching arm and is through.

maybe neal cotts has been so badly shaken by his abuse at the hands of the white sox he'll take 4 more years to get over it.

maybe olivo is as good as he'll ever be.

maybe colon will fly to the moon!


are your maybes any more likely than mine?

anewman35
12-02-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by idseer
maybe jon rauch will never regain his mlpoy form and be an injury-prone pitcher who's only accomplisment will be being the tallest player in the game.

maybe jeremy reed will be rushed to the sox and never fulfill his potential because he didn't get enough seasoning.

maybe joe borchard will continue to be unable to hit even minor league pitching and not even have the career duane josephson enjoyed here.

maybe konerko will never play again after injuring his hip the first week of spring training.

maybe koch has permanently ruined his pitching arm and is through.

maybe neal cotts has been so badly shaken by his abuse at the hands of the white sox he'll take 4 more years to get over it.

maybe olivo is as good as he'll ever be.

maybe colon will fly to the moon!


are your maybes any more likely than mine?

As with most things, we'll probably get some of the good and some of the bad. No reason to be really optimistic or really pessimistic until we know more.

Tekijawa
12-02-2003, 11:17 AM
What do I have to look forward to for next year, please please PLEASE turn me into an optimist! I see a team that finished 2nd last year in a weak division... losing their Opening Day pitcher, their starting 2nd baseman, staring Centerfielder, and Saves leader. And still being more than 5 Million over budget. Then I see an in-experianced manager come in and rip one of the best players on the team, one who's ego needs to be handled with Kid gloves, in the first HOURS of his tenure. Sure there will be many FA deals out there but unlest they are willing to sign for NEGATIVE SALARY we won't see any of them! Minnesota and the Royals may have gotten worse but are they worse than what we will actually end up losing?

Here are the facts:

Maggs will be staying because of his contract size, why trade for him when you can get Vlad for less money and no players in exchange. Not a bad thing for us though.

Konerko Will be staying, His contract makes him even harder to trade than Maggs.

Koch will be staying, he garbage and he's our problem.

Lee is the most likely to be gone, I guess I should just get used to parting with young talent as a Sox fan as we wait for overly hyped minor leaguers to fill in...

Am I missing anything?

Oh yeah, I'm sure that every ticket I get this season will be for one of the new 300 obstructed view seats!!!

boog_alou
12-02-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by idseer
maybe jon rauch will never regain his mlpoy form and be an injury-prone pitcher who's only accomplisment will be being the tallest player in the game.

maybe jeremy reed will be rushed to the sox and never fulfill his potential because he didn't get enough seasoning.

maybe joe borchard will continue to be unable to hit even minor league pitching and not even have the career duane josephson enjoyed here.

maybe konerko will never play again after injuring his hip the first week of spring training.

maybe koch has permanently ruined his pitching arm and is through.

maybe neal cotts has been so badly shaken by his abuse at the hands of the white sox he'll take 4 more years to get over it.

maybe olivo is as good as he'll ever be.

maybe colon will fly to the moon!


are your maybes any more likely than mine?

Idseer, I thought you usually chose to be more optimistic about the various possibilities for the Sox. What gives?

anewman35
12-02-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Oh yeah, I'm sure that every ticket I get this season will be for one of the new 300 obstructed view seats!!!

I hope so! I presume they're only going to sell those after everything else is gone, and we could use 40,000 people there every day!

boog_alou
12-02-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Here are the facts:

Maggs will be staying because of his contract size, why trade for him when you can get Vlad for less money and no players in exchange. Not a bad thing for us though.

Konerko Will be staying, His contract makes him even harder to trade than Maggs.

Koch will be staying, he garbage and he's our problem.

Lee is the most likely to be gone, I guess I should just get used to parting with young talent as a Sox fan as we wait for overly hyped minor leaguers to fill in...

Am I missing anything?

Maggs, Konerko and Koch are all potentially tradeable, if they are traded for someone with a decent contract of their own. That is why the Konerko for Perez trade is a real possibility. Konerko makes 8M, and Perez will get about 3.5M. It doesn't free up all of Konerko's salary commitment, but it does make for room. With Ordonez's talent, he is even more marketable. Yes, he has a huge salary, but if the Sox will take back something like 6M in salary, then a trade involving him is doable.

The Sox have some options. They aren't great options, and I'll be shocked if KW can put together a team that is better than the 2003 team, but they aren't entirely stuck.

idseer
12-02-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Idseer, I thought you usually chose to be more optimistic about the various possibilities for the Sox. What gives?

hey there booger! opps ..... i mean boog. :smile: (this is the kinder gentler me)

i have my optimistic moments and i have my pessimistic moments.
my post here was actually neither. just pointing out that maybes can go either way. however, i will admit i am not very optimistic about this coming year. everything points to a weaker team and there seems to be little to look forward to. i will, of course, wait to see what we actually have before we start before moaning about it.

anewman35
12-02-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i have my optimistic moments and i have my pessimistic moments.
my post here was actually neither. just pointing out that maybes can go either way. however, i will admit i am not very optimistic about this coming year. everything points to a weaker team and there seems to be little to look forward to. i will, of course, wait to see what we actually have before we start before moaning about it.

Sure, the team may be a little weaker (but the Twins probably will be, too). The big wild card here is the manager. We all know JM was horrible, if Ozzie is less horrible (or, we can hope, good), that could give us the boost we need to win the division.

boog_alou
12-02-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by idseer
however, i will admit i am not very optimistic about this coming year. everything points to a weaker team and there seems to be little to look forward to. i will, of course, wait to see what we actually have before we start before moaning about it.

That $60 million payroll ceiling is a real killer. It necessitates trades and makes improving the team damned near impossible. I can't imagine the team's talent will be better in 2004, but there is some hope that the team will do better in 2004 if the Twins are considerably worse, which is a possibility.

anewman35
12-02-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
That $60 million payroll ceiling is a real killer. It necessitates trades and makes improving the team damned near impossible.


The real question is, how serious of a goal that is. It might not be a firm ceiling as much as a goal of where JR would like to get. If we are still a few over at the beginning of the season, I don't think he'd trade somebody for a bag of balls just to get to that magic number (but, to head off the reponses I'm sure I'll get, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe JR will. But we'll just have to see, won't we?)

Adam

boog_alou
12-02-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
The real question is, how serious of a goal that is. It might not be a firm ceiling as much as a goal of where JR would like to get. If we are still a few over at the beginning of the season, I don't think he'd trade somebody for a bag of balls just to get to that magic number (but, to head off the reponses I'm sure I'll get, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe JR will. But we'll just have to see, won't we?)

Adam

The problem is that they are over budget right now. With the current players under contract and going to arbitration, the Sox are over $63 million already. They have to trade away some big contract just to get under budget...and that STILL leaves holes to fill.

SoxxoS
12-02-2003, 12:24 PM
It may be a 60 million dollar payroll at the start of the season, but I believe it could be a different story at the All Star Break, IF we start the season strong.

jabrch
12-02-2003, 12:28 PM
Imagine if we were in ANY OTHER DIVISION IN BASEBALL?

We'd stand no chance. As is, we are no worse off than Minn (lost AJ P and losing at least one of their bull-pen guys if not both, also may lose Shannon Stewart) and KC (lost Guillen - nothing else much more to lose to begin with - and facing the reality that Carlos Beltran is a FA after this year and will the be the #1 target of the New York Yankees)

Paulwny
12-02-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
It may be a 60 million dollar payroll at the start of the season, but I believe it could be a different story at the All Star Break, IF we start the season strong.


Agree, but if we're very bad at the start look for a fire sale at the break.

anewman35
12-02-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Imagine if we were in ANY OTHER DIVISION IN BASEBALL?

We'd stand no chance.

You mean like how Florida had no chance in the scary NL wild card race, against teams with much bigger payrolls?

Dick Allen
12-02-2003, 12:41 PM
Everybody talks about doing what it takes to win the division. This isn't good enough! We need a team that will advance in the post-season, and with the looks of things this off-season, that will AGAIN not happen. That is what really gets my blood boiling.

anewman35
12-02-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Dick Allen
Everybody talks about doing what it takes to win the division. This isn't good enough! We need a team that will advance in the post-season, and with the looks of things this off-season, that will AGAIN not happen. That is what really gets my blood boiling.

In a short series, anything can happen, and we're in no position to try to build a team specifically to win one (remember last year, everybody thought we'd be tough in a short series, because of our rotation. Well, you have to get there for that to matter). I think the best we (or, really, most any team that isn't going to run away with their division) can hope for is getting there and getting lucky.

Dick Allen
12-02-2003, 01:07 PM
Well, if the Sox are built to just barely win a weak division, and do not solidify the starting rotation to be at least as good as last year's, then it won't matter how short the series is. Plus, the only thing we've seen happen in past short series are one and done.

Lip Man 1
12-02-2003, 01:46 PM
Isn't it unfortunate though that in the city of Chicago, Sox fans have to hope for luck to win the division and or to advance in the playoffs?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to rely more on good talent and less on luck.

Lip

anewman35
12-02-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Isn't it unfortunate though that in the city of Chicago, Sox fans have to hope for luck to win the division and or to advance in the playoffs?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to rely more on good talent and less on luck.

Lip

Don't even start. Every team, no matter how good or bad, depends on luck to some extent. Otherwise, there would never be an upset.

boog_alou
12-02-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Don't even start. Every team, no matter how good or bad, depends on luck to some extent. Otherwise, there would never be an upset.

But the problem is that it is pretty clear that the Sox will only be able to take the division if they are lucky enough to have the other teams in the division completely tank, and/or for many young Sox players to magically blossom at the same time this year.

voodoochile
12-02-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
But the problem is that it is pretty clear that the Sox will only be able to take the division if they are lucky enough to have the other teams in the division completely tank, and/or for many young Sox players to magically blossom at the same time this year.

Based on what? Not too many players have signed with anyone so far.

Maybe after the Winter meetings and the late season signings you will have a point, but so far they haven't lost anyone from the team.

Tekijawa
12-02-2003, 02:02 PM
I didn' follow Cleveland too closely but how far would this divison have to fall back to the pack for them to be concidered threats?

boog_alou
12-02-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Based on what? Not too many players have signed with anyone so far.

Maybe after the Winter meetings and the late season signings you will have a point, but so far they haven't lost anyone from the team.

Based on the fact that the Sox don't have the payroll room to upgrade this team. In order to improve the team, they would have to trade away key player(s) and then do an amazingly good job of picking up cheap talented players. We'll see if KW is a miracle worker.

voodoochile
12-02-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Based on the fact that the Sox don't have the payroll room to upgrade this team. In order to improve the team, they would have to trade away key player(s) and then do an amazingly good job of picking up cheap talented players. We'll see if KW is a miracle worker.

Yeah, their self-imposed restrictions are a problem, but I refuse to believe they cannot up payroll if they choose to, so I just won't accept that they cannot bring people back or acquire other players if they decide to. Unfortunately, you are probably correct and it won't happen.

boog_alou
12-02-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, their self-imposed restrictions are a problem, but I refuse to believe they cannot up payroll if they choose to, so I just won't accept that they cannot bring people back or acquire other players if they decide to. Unfortunately, you are probably correct and it won't happen.

The organization CAN do with its payroll anything it wants. However, the organization has been quite clear that it won't increase payroll significantly. $60 million would be more than a 15% increase, so that really does have to be the ceiling. JR and the ownership group has decided how much they are willing to spend, and it is really hamstringing this club. However, it is possible that they would be willing to increase payroll at midseason through a trade, that is if the revenues from the first half of the season have looked good.

bobj4400
12-02-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
You mean like how Florida had no chance in the scary NL wild card race, against teams with much bigger payrolls?

Are you trying to make an argument that we would stand a snowball's chance in hell if we played Boston/Yanks or A's/M's 19 times a year rather than the Twins/Royals?? If you are, I am not buying it...

Chisox353014
12-02-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
But the problem is that it is pretty clear that the Sox will only be able to take the division if they are lucky enough to have the other teams in the division completely tank, and/or for many young Sox players to magically blossom at the same time this year.

Hmmm...that scenario sounds kinda familiar...*coughcough*2000*coughcough*

anewman35
12-02-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by bobj4400
Are you trying to make an argument that we would stand a snowball's chance in hell if we played Boston/Yanks or A's/M's 19 times a year rather than the Twins/Royals?? If you are, I am not buying it...

No, not seriously. But Florida proved (even if they were just a fluke), a low payroll team can complete in a competitive race.

kempsted
12-02-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Based on the fact that the Sox don't have the payroll room to upgrade this team. In order to improve the team, they would have to trade away key player(s) and then do an amazingly good job of picking up cheap talented players. We'll see if KW is a miracle worker.
Yes but no one in our division has made any moves. Minnesota has just lost a couple of key players and will lose some more. Remember we only lost to them by 2 head to head wins. Our payroll is about the same as everyone else in AL Central.

kempsted
12-02-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Dick Allen
Everybody talks about doing what it takes to win the division. This isn't good enough! We need a team that will advance in the post-season, and with the looks of things this off-season, that will AGAIN not happen. That is what really gets my blood boiling.
Folks winning the division is the only thing that the 6 months 162 games is about. After that it is a crap shoot.

Look at the Giants and the Braves who had the talent to do it, ran away with their divisions and still didn't advance past the first round. The Cubs were not in any way shape or form a better team than the Braves and if you watched the Marlins Giants series the Marlins got extremely lucky.

THe fact is it really doesn't matter how good you are in a five game series. If we put the Tigers in the playoffs they could have upset the Yankees. That is just how it goes. So yes - winning the division is the goal. It is really the only rational goal in baseball. The rest is certainly nice but you can't really do anything about it.

Lip Man 1
12-03-2003, 12:18 PM
The way the Sox, Twins and to a certain extent the Royals are losing talent you wonder if the 2004 AL Central winner will have a record like the 1994 AL West leader at the time of the labor impasse.

As hard as it is to believe the Rangers were in first place in the West on August 11, 1994 with a record TEN GAMES UNDER .500.

At least the impasse wiped out the embarassment of having a team in the playoffs with a losing record.

Lip