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RichH55
11-28-2003, 06:29 PM
Marte and Koch look like they will be back
Bring Ginter up
Non Tender Schoenweiss
Dont Pay Sullivan's option
Sign Pete Munro and maybe Corey Thurman very very cheaply
Danny Wright
Wunsch probably gone

Nothing spectacular, but should be solid, assuming Koch regains at least some of his old form

JRIG
11-28-2003, 07:27 PM
I've been pitching (no pun intended) the idea of signing either Al Levine or Steve Reed for under $1 million.

Gumshoe
11-28-2003, 07:57 PM
We have to get Scotty Sullivan back. With Flash gone (Sullivan is better than he is anyway), we do need someone that is decent. Keep Wunsch, Sullivan, we have Marte, and let's try a new guy (Pacheco?)

I don't wanna see our pen deteriorate. It's important.

G

Soxfest
11-28-2003, 09:20 PM
The pen will be a major problem if addressed that way.

cornball
11-28-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Marte and Koch look like they will be back
Bring Ginter up
Non Tender Schoenweiss
Dont Pay Sullivan's option
Sign Pete Munro and maybe Corey Thurman very very cheaply
Danny Wright
Wunsch probably gone

Nothing spectacular, but should be solid, assuming Koch regains at least some of his old form




Solid as a marshmellow.

RichH55
11-29-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Solid as a marshmellow.


Marte will be solid....and you need to spend 20 million dollars to have a solid pen?

Munro wasn't bad at all coming out of Houston's pen(looked bad as a starter though) and bullpen guys come out of nowhere ALL the time

Better than spending 5 million for Schoenweiss and Sullivan

MHOUSE
11-29-2003, 01:36 PM
Dump Schoenweiss, he's not worth more than $1 million. Hardly that with last years' numbers. Marte will be solid again assuming his arm doesn't fall off. Then you're got a big question mark on Billy Koch and then possible rookies, call-ups, or bargain basement signings. I don't want any more Rick Whites. Sullivan would be nice and keeping Wunsch too for the right price. I don't think 2004 is going to be pretty.

munchman33
11-29-2003, 02:42 PM
I don't see the sox spending money in the pen with so many other holes and very little, if any, payroll flexibility.

This is how I see it turning out:

CP Koch
Setup Marte, Wright
Middle Wunsch, Ginter
Long Stewart

You never know...Maybe we'll score a thousand runs. :whiner:

Huisj
11-29-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by munchman33

You never know...Maybe we'll score a thousand runs. :whiner:

Not if hollywood leads off and gets on base at a .290 clip.
Not if Rowand plays center.
Not if Valentin hits .230.
Not if Thomas swings for the fence all year and hits .250.
Not if Ordonez or Lee get traded.

cornball
11-30-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Marte will be solid....and you need to spend 20 million dollars to have a solid pen?

Munro wasn't bad at all coming out of Houston's pen(looked bad as a starter though) and bullpen guys come out of nowhere ALL the time

Better than spending 5 million for Schoenweiss and Sullivan


Considering you currently have a 3 man rotation, you better have the best bullpen in the leauge. One that will be able to handle alot of innings and be ready every day. Personally we disagree, this pen wont be hold up to win the division.

Fit JR's budget maybe, but again, not to win based on the current rotation.

MHOUSE
12-01-2003, 09:02 PM
Right now our pitching staff isn't looking too hot.

Loaiza
Buehrle
Garland
??
??

Marte back
Koch most likely stuck here

Wunsch a big maybe to return
Schoenweiss sucks, maybe non-tender?
Ginter, Sanders, Wright, all inexperienced as bullpen guys
Flash gone to NYY

Throw in the fact that our budget is so low and it's obvious that we're screwed!

PaulDrake
12-01-2003, 09:41 PM
Right now our pitching staff isn't looking too hot. It's starting to look like the staff of a losing team. There is still time to make moves and fill holes, but as of now things look bad.

doublem23
12-01-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
It's starting to look the staff of a losing team. There is still time to make moves and fill holes, but as of now things look bad.

Check your calendar.

RichH55
12-02-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Check your calendar.


I do remember the same things being said last year before Colon....of course a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but this offseason just started

RichH55
12-02-2003, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Considering you currently have a 3 man rotation, you better have the best bullpen in the leauge. One that will be able to handle alot of innings and be ready every day. Personally we disagree, this pen wont be hold up to win the division.

Fit JR's budget maybe, but again, not to win based on the current rotation.

A) See the "Check your calender" Post

B) Why do you have to spend money to get a good bullpen? Marte was making 8 million dollars last year was he? See the Phillies and Even the Cubs on how to get no value for your money

C) If that 3 man roation is what happens we can have a 9 man bullpen:)

D) On Bench players and relievers you simply do not have to spend alot to get alot(whose copyright did I infringe there?), so why spend to spend? Get a guy like Pete Munro, and use the 1.7 million difference between him and Schoenweiss to sure up other positions......With a 60 million dollar payroll, spending 3 million on your 4th best reliever is like a Homeless guy in a nuclear winter opting for the good silver

cornball
12-02-2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by RichH55

D) so why spend to spend? [/B]

Exactly, as soon as someone can explain Valentin to me. 8% of the budget for Valentin?

RichH55
12-02-2003, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Exactly, as soon as someone can explain Valentin to me. 8% of the budget for Valentin?


Well --> that was more than I thought they would bring him back for.....but the other options out there aren't exactly blowing the roof off the place

If paying Valentin means No Royce Clayton-esque SS then Im fine with it....the difference in salary between Schoeneweiss and say Ginter will pay off "premium" we paid to keep Jose essentially....That I can live with

cornball
12-02-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Well --> that was more than I thought they would bring him back for.....but the other options out there aren't exactly blowing the roof off the place

If paying Valentin means No Royce Clayton-esque SS then Im fine with it....the difference in salary between Schoeneweiss and say Ginter will pay off "premium" we paid to keep Jose essentially....That I can live with

Rich, if you want to just fill the roster with "bodies" just to meet the self imposed budget.... fine. Personally, I like winning. The players you mention will not make the team better. Last year's team did not win the division.

The division will be even weaker this year. It is a buyer's market as evidenced of the Schilling and Sexton trades.

As far as other options for Valentin, maybe the calender you mentioned before would be a good idea.

The game is about winning. To win you need pitching. There are no rules about how much money a team can spend. I do realize money does have a major effect of things, and thats why based on the current roster KW will have to clear out money. If the ownership was smart they would spend more this year, to make more in the future....ie playoff money, season tix increases, tv money ect.......it is a buyers market!!!

RichH55
12-02-2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich, if you want to just fill the roster with "bodies" just to meet the self imposed budget.... fine. Personally, I like winning. The players you mention will not make the team better. Last year's team did not win the division.

The division will be even weaker this year. It is a buyer's market as evidenced of the Schilling and Sexton trades.

As far as other options for Valentin, maybe the calender you mentioned before would be a good idea.

The game is about winning. To win you need pitching. There are no rules about how much money a team can spend. I do realize money does have a major effect of things, and thats why based on the current roster KW will have to clear out money. If the ownership was smart they would spend more this year, to make more in the future....ie playoff money, season tix increases, tv money ect.......it is a buyers market!!!


It is a buyers market, but 2 million for Schoeneweiss is 2 million too much

4th/5th guys in the bullpen are fungible commodities

You say you realize money has a large effect on things, but then you want to spend a ton on bullpen guys

Who was our best bullpen guy last year? Marte

After him? Gordon off the scrapheap

Most Expensive? Koch

Least Valuable? Koch

Veteran for the sake of a veteran? Rick White

Where do I sign up to throw good money after bad?


Let me know where you see these better options than Valentin at SS (and yes I remember you cared for Royce Clayton, but that still didn't mean he could play)

And if you let Jose go, knowing there is nothing on the FA market, well way to give yourself leverage for trades!

I could post crap like Konerko, Valentin,and Koch for AROD!!! But I prefer to deal in some semblance of reality, and the reality has been you can put together a good bullpen for not a ton of dollars, especially when you have a guy like Marte as the anchor already

Pete Munro was pretty good out of the bullpen for Houston last year, Ginter was a 1st(maybe sandwich?) pick so he isn't coming from no where...Wright was pretty good out of the pen as well(*or maybe it just seemed that way after watching him smart)


Schoenweiss has proven little in his career besides that he can't start, but will cost you roughly 1.7 million then a guy who will put up comparable numbers, if not better numbers

And who is the top SS in our system? And what level is he at? I suggested Luna as a Rule 5 guy in another thread as a guy you would want to have and would be cheap, and be a good guy to have on the bench


Do we get points for having guys like Terrence Long? Paid alot but they suck, but are proven bench guys?


Look at what a team like Houston did...they gave up Wagner 8 million, but resigned the likes of Brad Ausmus and Jose Visciano for roughly 4 million(someone double check that one for me)...the Message: Don't pay alot for guys who are at replacement level...sure someone will pick up Wagner, but only because you spent too much of Ausmus(and other guys too of course)


And before you give me this spiel that anyone can be signed - We are just too cheap --> Manny was placed on waivers by Boston, Wagner traded by Houston for salary reasons, hell even the Yankees said someone was "Too Rich" for them

cornball
12-02-2003, 08:42 AM
Listen to yourself you can't have it both ways.

RichH55
12-02-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Listen to yourself you can't have it both ways.

How am I having it both ways? I suggest you can replace bullpen parts reasonably easy

Are you suggesting starting SS is equal to 4th arm in the bullpen?

cornball
12-02-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
It is a buyers market, but 2 million for Schoeneweiss is 2 million too much

4th/5th guys in the bullpen are fungible commodities

You say you realize money has a large effect on things, but then you want to spend a ton on bullpen guys

Who was our best bullpen guy last year? Marte

After him? Gordon off the scrapheap

Most Expensive? Koch

Least Valuable? Koch

Veteran for the sake of a veteran? Rick White

Where do I sign up to throw good money after bad?


Let me know where you see these better options than Valentin at SS (and yes I remember you cared for Royce Clayton, but that still didn't mean he could play)

And if you let Jose go, knowing there is nothing on the FA market, well way to give yourself leverage for trades!

I could post crap like Konerko, Valentin,and Koch for AROD!!! But I prefer to deal in some semblance of reality, and the reality has been you can put together a good bullpen for not a ton of dollars, especially when you have a guy like Marte as the anchor already

Pete Munro was pretty good out of the bullpen for Houston last year, Ginter was a 1st(maybe sandwich?) pick so he isn't coming from no where...Wright was pretty good out of the pen as well(*or maybe it just seemed that way after watching him smart)


Schoenweiss has proven little in his career besides that he can't start, but will cost you roughly 1.7 million then a guy who will put up comparable numbers, if not better numbers

And who is the top SS in our system? And what level is he at? I suggested Luna as a Rule 5 guy in another thread as a guy you would want to have and would be cheap, and be a good guy to have on the bench


Do we get points for having guys like Terrence Long? Paid alot but they suck, but are proven bench guys?


Look at what a team like Houston did...they gave up Wagner 8 million, but resigned the likes of Brad Ausmus and Jose Visciano for roughly 4 million(someone double check that one for me)...the Message: Don't pay alot for guys who are at replacement level...sure someone will pick up Wagner, but only because you spent too much of Ausmus(and other guys too of course)


And before you give me this spiel that anyone can be signed - We are just too cheap --> Manny was placed on waivers by Boston, Wagner traded by Houston for salary reasons, hell even the Yankees said someone was "Too Rich" for them

Rich you are comparing apples and oranges. Last years pen benifited for Colon throwing 255 innings and more complete games than anyone else in the league. Pitching, overall pitching is the name of the game. The Cubs and Marlins proved it with stellar proformances in the second half and playoffs. The Angels showed you can win with a mediocre starting staff and a great pen a few years ago. Right now we have neither.

You can make it to the playoffs without great pitching but you wont last in the playoffs without it.

I am saying you cant have it both ways because, on one hand you say look at the calender and on the other you want to panic to over pay for a lousy shortstop.

Pete Munro pitched 54 innings last year for Houston where the opponents batted 294 off of him. with a 4.67 ERA....I wouldn't call that an upgrade.

RichH55
12-03-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich you are comparing apples and oranges. Last years pen benifited for Colon throwing 255 innings and more complete games than anyone else in the league. Pitching, overall pitching is the name of the game. The Cubs and Marlins proved it with stellar proformances in the second half and playoffs. The Angels showed you can win with a mediocre starting staff and a great pen a few years ago. Right now we have neither.

You can make it to the playoffs without great pitching but you wont last in the playoffs without it.

I am saying you cant have it both ways because, on one hand you say look at the calender and on the other you want to panic to over pay for a lousy shortstop.

Pete Munro pitched 54 innings last year for Houston where the opponents batted 294 off of him. with a 4.67 ERA....I wouldn't call that an upgrade.


I was waiting for the Munro comment:) Notice I said he was good coming out of the BULLPEN...he did get some starts, which he did NOT excel at and hurt his numbers(especially with 54 innings)...Thats why I wanted to replace Schoenweiss with him

My Hector Luna is probably done once Uribe is here, but thats cheap bench help.

You bring up Colon and his numbers....I never SP wasn't the thing to get ....NEVER....what I said is that you can have a good bullpen without spending alot of money...then you brought up Anaheim (aside from Percival --> and we have a solid closer anyway)....that bullpen had strengths like Donnelly and Krod, each making nothing!


In NO way did I want to panic and overpay for a SS....but there is a thing called scarcity in both terms of players and money....only so much to go around

You can build a QUALITY bullpen, and you seem to not want to acknowledge that, for cheap, but playing the likes of Royce Clayton every day will kill you

Getting Uribe cheap helps as well --> and we will disagree about whether Jose is a lousy SS...I remember you being a Choice suppoorter, so that tells me everything I need to know about your SS preferences

cornball
12-03-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I was waiting for the Munro comment:) Notice I said he was good coming out of the BULLPEN...he did get some starts, which he did NOT excel at and hurt his numbers(especially with 54 innings)...Thats why I wanted to replace Schoenweiss with him

My Hector Luna is probably done once Uribe is here, but thats cheap bench help.

You bring up Colon and his numbers....I never SP wasn't the thing to get ....NEVER....what I said is that you can have a good bullpen without spending alot of money...then you brought up Anaheim (aside from Percival --> and we have a solid closer anyway)....that bullpen had strengths like Donnelly and Krod, each making nothing!


In NO way did I want to panic and overpay for a SS....but there is a thing called scarcity in both terms of players and money....only so much to go around

You can build a QUALITY bullpen, and you seem to not want to acknowledge that, for cheap, but playing the likes of Royce Clayton every day will kill you

Getting Uribe cheap helps as well --> and we will disagree about whether Jose is a lousy SS...I remember you being a Choice suppoorter, so that tells me everything I need to know about your SS preferences

With all due respect Rich, it seems to me, you are more concerned with how much everyone makes rather than fielding a contending team.

The bomb will drop soon and you will have more money to tinker with.

RichH55
12-03-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by cornball
With all due respect Rich, it seems to me, you are more concerned with how much everyone makes rather than fielding a contending team.

The bomb will drop soon and you will have more money to tinker with.


What part of this are you missing? The money does matter

A bad contract is a bad contract

Why pay 2 million for something when you can get it for 300 K? You want to spend Uncle Jerry's money that badly that we have to spend it poorly?

I have no idea what this bomb you are talking about is? Maybe dealing Mags or something along those lines

But all I proposed throughout this thread is viable bullpen guys who are cost efficient

What is the problem with that?

cornball
12-03-2003, 08:30 AM
Rich if you think the addition of Pete Munro would make the pen solid, well good for you, I don't. You say coming out of the pen he only started 2 games. The guy's longest outing was 3 1/3 innings and that was only one time he lasted 3 innings last year with 40 appearances. When the opponent bats 294 against you from either side of the plate and you have a 4.67 in the National League (add .5 coming to the AL), I wouldn't classify that as quality.

If your starting staff is weak, you better have a lights out pen. IMHO, Munro is not an improvement.

Money is important, however you need to wait to see which high priced player is moved, someone has to be based on all we know.

RichH55
12-04-2003, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich if you think the addition of Pete Munro would make the pen solid, well good for you, I don't. You say coming out of the pen he only started 2 games. The guy's longest outing was 3 1/3 innings and that was only one time he lasted 3 innings last year with 40 appearances. When the opponent bats 294 against you from either side of the plate and you have a 4.67 in the National League (add .5 coming to the AL), I wouldn't classify that as quality.

If your starting staff is weak, you better have a lights out pen. IMHO, Munro is not an improvement.

Money is important, however you need to wait to see which high priced player is moved, someone has to be based on all we know.


Im sick of arguing this with you..

A) You give no alternatives

B) Please break down Munro's numbers without the starts in there as he's a bullpen guy

C) Did I suggest that the bullpen should literally only be Pete Munro? Or did I suggest many names with Marte holding the fort and a reasonable hope that Koch will be better than last year?

D) Why do you think you need to spend alot to get a good bullpen?
- I have pointed out numerous times it is easy to put together a good pen cheaply(spending money on MRs especially when you have a good closer, does little, and those guys do not always pan out read: PHILLIES!)
- We don't have a ton of money to spend, so spend it properly
- I'm hoping Konerko is gone, which would probably mean Perez, which would sure up the Starting Rotation somewhat

cornball
12-04-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Im sick of arguing this with you..

A) You give no alternatives

B) Please break down Munro's numbers without the starts in there as he's a bullpen guy

C) Did I suggest that the bullpen should literally only be Pete Munro? Or did I suggest many names with Marte holding the fort and a reasonable hope that Koch will be better than last year?

D) Why do you think you need to spend alot to get a good bullpen?
- I have pointed out numerous times it is easy to put together a good pen cheaply(spending money on MRs especially when you have a good closer, does little, and those guys do not always pan out read: PHILLIES!)
- We don't have a ton of money to spend, so spend it properly
- I'm hoping Konerko is gone, which would probably mean Perez, which would sure up the Starting Rotation somewhat

Rich, you seem like a nice young man. I don't mean to argue with you, however all I am saying is, you want cheap and "viable" solutions to fill the roster. I want to a team that will win, I been watching this team rebuild for decades and I dont want to go throught it again. This team was close last year and should have won the division.

My view, is pitching wins in baseball. Pitching is the first line of defense and at the moment our staff (both starters and pen) are weak. To add another weak pitcher at this time, in my view, is not a good idea. Would this addition help us win the division...I dont think so.

There has to be several moves coming, because it would impossible to start the year with the current lineup. KW recent comments show me he wants pitching...wait and see.

RichH55
12-04-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich, you seem like a nice young man. I don't mean to argue with you, however all I am saying is, you want cheap and "viable" solutions to fill the roster. I want to a team that will win, I been watching this team rebuild for decades and I dont want to go throught it again. This team was close last year and should have won the division.

My view, is pitching wins in baseball. Pitching is the first line of defense and at the moment our staff (both starters and pen) are weak. To add another weak pitcher at this time, in my view, is not a good idea. Would this addition help us win the division...I dont think so.

There has to be several moves coming, because it would impossible to start the year with the current lineup. KW recent comments show me he wants pitching...wait and see.

Nice young man? Interesting...I appreciate that

I have always been a believer in pitching and hitting....Defense a distant distant third

The cheap thing is part of it...but you say Viable as well....guys like Munro are akin to Sean Lowe, cheap but they should get the job done

I think it makes more sense to spend that money on SPs...if going from Schoenweiss or even Sullivan to Munro-esque guys, but gives you the room to add a Ponson salary or resign Bartolo..then im all for it....thats why I bring these deals up

Whats the old saying? Take care of you pennies and the dollars will watch themseles(I think im butchering that one)--> but if you get a good performance for 300 K instead of 2 million...that allows you to do more elsewhere

cornball
12-04-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Nice young man? Interesting...I appreciate that

I have always been a believer in pitching and hitting....Defense a distant distant third

The cheap thing is part of it...but you say Viable as well....guys like Munro are akin to Sean Lowe, cheap but they should get the job done

I think it makes more sense to spend that money on SPs...if going from Schoenweiss or even Sullivan to Munro-esque guys, but gives you the room to add a Ponson salary or resign Bartolo..then im all for it....thats why I bring these deals up

Whats the old saying? Take care of you pennies and the dollars will watch themseles(I think im butchering that one)--> but if you get a good performance for 300 K instead of 2 million...that allows you to do more elsewhere

Finally we agree! If you can get someone to do the same job for less, that is great. But, my point was, the guy your replacing is not someone who is a difference maker. If your starters are bad, you will need to rely on your pen more, then bullpen of the Sox last year was not tested like it will be this year (as it stands now).

The long relief was weak last year, but didnt get exposed like it possibly will in the upcoming year. The division is there for the taking again, I would like to see players who give us the best chance to do so, an upgrade if possible. "viable" was your word, not mine. Sullivan is much better than Munro.

I think the saying goes...penny wise and dollar foolish, which seems to fit.