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View Full Version : Time for a Change In Ownership


DannyCaterFan
11-26-2003, 01:42 PM
While the crosstown Cubs continue to steal the Chicago headlines away from the White Sox with their expanded payroll and popular trades, the Sox continue to tinker with their modest $60 million budget. With all the hoopla over a playoff team on the north side this past year, one would think that jerry reinsdorf and company would be doing all they can to compete just so they will be noticed on baseball's radar screen in 2004.
Nothing is ever going to change on the south side unless they open up the coffers, expand the budget, and sign the key players needed to compete for a championship. As it stands now, we can't even hold on o the players we have that have performed well. Year after year, White Sox fans say goodbye to players lie Colon, Gordon, and Ordonez, while we are forcefed the likes of Billy Koch, whom the Sox say is throwing well again (Well if that is rue is he throwing 99 miles an hour again?)
Time has come for the Chairman of the (Bored) to sell this franchise. Let's find a new owner with the yearning for a championship team, one that will pay for what we need. With 2 million fans last year and a great TV deal, where is all the money going, back in their pockets?? Time to move on Jerry.

CubKilla
11-26-2003, 01:46 PM
You won't get any argument out of me

:sellreinsy

TaylorStSox
11-26-2003, 01:50 PM
At least there's a thread dedicated to this subject. Maybe it won't kill every other thread now. :threadrules:

Baby Fisk
11-26-2003, 01:58 PM
For the simple fact that he made Lecherous Loria look good, Reinsdorf should wave the white flag (which he's used to doing) and sell.

JERRY! JERRY! JERRY! :winner

Hondo
11-26-2003, 01:58 PM
Maybe P. Diddy or Jay Z could buy the team :)

Hangar18
11-26-2003, 02:12 PM
JR has been here a long time, and all of those promises of doing things the right way, and us winning championships, just hasnt happened. JR needs to go ahead and sell this team

dickallen15
11-26-2003, 02:22 PM
While Reinsdorf's reign has been far from perfect, it would be silly to start throwing money around just to answer what the more popular Cubs are doing. The Mets tried this approach combating the Yankees, and will be painfully paying for it for many years. The White Sox have to increase their fan base, this doesn't happen quickly by winning, see 2000, it doesn't happen quickly by spending a lot of money, see 1997, it is a slow and gradual rise. While a lot of people think 1.9 million is great attendance, it is at least 500,000 below average.

PaulDrake
11-26-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
While Reinsdorf's reign has been far from perfect, it would be silly to start throwing money around just to answer what the more popular Cubs are doing. The Mets tried this approach combating the Yankees, and will be painfully paying for it for many years. The White Sox have to increase their fan base, this doesn't happen quickly by winning, see 2000, it doesn't happen quickly by spending a lot of money, see 1997, it is a slow and gradual rise. While a lot of people think 1.9 million is great attendance, it is at least 500,000 below average. If you think that's below average wait and see what happens if next years team tanks. It's 86 years and counting. Reminds me of an old Howlin Wolf blues number "How Many More Years?".

Baby Fisk
11-26-2003, 02:28 PM
What other human being would pitch a 22-Year Rebuilding Project to his customers with a straight face?

If I hear the R word again, I'm going to push my face through a pane of glass.

ssang
11-26-2003, 02:46 PM
AB

ssang
11-26-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by DannyCaterFan

Time has come for the Chairman of the (Bored) to sell this franchise. Let's find a new owner with the yearning for a championship team, one that will pay for what we need. With 2 million fans last year and a great TV deal, where is all the money going, back in their pockets?? Time to move on Jerry.


Yes, yes, yes. We all know this. And there is nothing we can do. One of two things must happen before the Sox can be consistent winners or title contenders. 1) Jerry Reisnsdorf sells the team. 2) Jerry Reinsdorf dies. I would say we might have to wait for #2 to happen. Life as a White Sox fan = TORTURE

maurice
11-26-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
While Reinsdorf's reign has been far from perfect, it would be silly to start throwing money around just to answer what the more popular Cubs are doing.

No, it would be the only reasonable response. The Mets example is a bad one, and conveniently ignores the more analogous cubs. The Mets gave tens of millions of dollars per year to known bums like Vaughn and Cedeno, while failing to develop or acquire good young starting pitchers. The cubs, OTOH, established a solid, young pitching staff and spent money to fill holes by adding good (and often young) veterans. Their latest acquisition (Lee) is an excellent example of how this should be done. The Trib could just bank their profits like JR loves to do, yet they see fit to increase their already high payroll to eliminate their few remaining weaknesses.

We're not asking for a Mets budget, or even a cubs budget. All we're asking for is a respectable major-league payroll, which would allow KW to sign the equivalent of Colon, Gordon, and Castillo. This represents a relatively cheap way of keeping a good pitching staff intact, while filling one glaring hole.

Instead, we'll get an embarrassingly low, below-average payroll, and a worse team than last year's losers, while the cubs will again draw 3 million and be favored to win the worst division in baseball.

The White Sox have to increase their fan base, this doesn't happen quickly by winning

No, it happens by CONSECUTIVE winning seasons. The Sox have been one-and-done for almost a decade. The approximately 2 million attendance figure you deprecate represents one of the highest attendance figures in Sox history. The Sox should try to build on their success by fielding a division winner in 2004. Instead, they are playing it cheap by significantly downgrading the roster and will suffer the consequences they deserve at the gate in 2004. I suspect the impact on season ticket sales already is being felt. It's the owners' fault, not the fans.

Gumshoe
11-26-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
While Reinsdorf's reign has been far from perfect, it would be silly to start throwing money around just to answer what the more popular Cubs are doing. The Mets tried this approach combating the Yankees, and will be painfully paying for it for many years. The White Sox have to increase their fan base, this doesn't happen quickly by winning, see 2000, it doesn't happen quickly by spending a lot of money, see 1997, it is a slow and gradual rise. While a lot of people think 1.9 million is great attendance, it is at least 500,000 below average.

Dick, your point is well taken, but it's just flat-out not right. Silly just to "start throwing money around" ... we're not asking for that!

We're saying, up it a LITTLE bit (towards 70 mil, even), and take advantage while the division is THERE FOR THE TAKING! I've done the calculations --- with the parking the Sox take in, add around 4,000 more per game in attendance (vs other teams without similar situations). Ridiculous. We draw fine. WIN, baby, just win and we'll be fine!

Gumshoe

ps- sorry, after last year, I finally found out that JR doesn't want to win. he really doesn't. He wants to fantasize about his childhood in Brooklyn and rake in more money for garages and BMWs ... man I can't stand this. We have to do something! WE MUST!

Greg1983
11-26-2003, 03:12 PM
You know, White Sox history is fraught with lousy owners. I wonder if any other franchise comes close.

We begin with miserly Charles Comiskey, who many people (including myself) believe is the primary culprit for the ugliest scandal in the history of the sport...perhaps of all sports. There's plenty of blame to go around for what happened in 1919, but God knows the ugliness we would have been spared if the Old Roman had paid people what they were worth.

Fast-forward to the 70's, we had Allyn nearly driving us to bankruptcy (and Seattle), followed by dear Bill Veeck. It pains me to include Veeck in an "awful owners" post, because he was a wonderful man and perhaps the best friend the ticket-buying baseball fan ever had. But as we all know, he didn't have the resources to compete. He was a fine man, but not the right man for the job in the long run.

So, enter Reinsdorf. I was just a kid when he bought the team, and I remember so well my father explaining to me with such excitement how things would be different now, now that a guy with deep pockets like Reinsdorf was coming to Chicago to build a winner. And how in 1983, it looked like it was all coming together.

My father died in 1990. And as much as I wish I could have him back, one of the few saving graces is that he didn't live to see just how badly Reinsdorf would disappoint. (Although even by 1990, I think he was starting to get the idea...) I think the last thing my dad would have expected would have been REINSDORF pleading poverty and claiming not to have the money to sign adequate talent. That's precisely what we thought was going to change when Veeck sold.

'Course, we had a wonderful owner/controlling partner in Dorothy Comiskey in the 50's and 60's, and (surprise) those were the best years in the history of the franchise. So it hasn't all been bad, but it's remarkable how much of it has been.

One silver lining, though: dammit, we are STILL here. Sox fans have suffered through decades of incompetent ownership (or, in Veeck's case, just severly financially challenged ownership), but we are STILL here. I don't think any other team or fan base could have possibly survived what we have endured. If and when we finally get rid of Reinsdorf and win something of consequence, no one in the history of sports will deserve it more than us.

I just hope we catch a break sometime soon...

Baby Fisk
11-26-2003, 03:14 PM
We're saying, up it a LITTLE bit (towards 70 mil, even), and take advantage while the division is THERE FOR THE TAKING! I've done the calculations --- with the parking the Sox take in, add around 4,000 more per game in attendance (vs other teams without similar situations). Ridiculous. We draw fine. WIN, baby, just win and we'll be fine!

Gumshoe

ps- sorry, after last year, I finally found out that JR doesn't want to win. he really doesn't. He wants to fantasize about his childhood in Brooklyn and rake in more money for garages and BMWs ... man I can't stand this. We have to do something! WE MUST! [/B]

I agree. If the man can't find it in him to up the damn payroll just enough to give the SOX a shot, he should be indicted for mass torture. I've already picked out my pane of glass!

RKMeibalane
11-26-2003, 03:16 PM
Reinsdorf should have sold the team six years ago. The fact that he's managed to stick around this long only proves that he doesn't give a damn about winning, especially not if it means spending money.

Jerry Reinsdorf, get the HELL OUT!

joecrede
11-26-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Reinsdorf should have sold the team six years ago. The fact that he's managed to stick around this long only proves that he doesn't give a damn about winning, especially not if it means spending money.

Jerry Reinsdorf, get the HELL OUT!

What's wrong with an owner of a team operating within a budget?

Is it just coincidental that Steinbrenner has the highest revenue and according to many the greatest "desire" to win? I don't think so.

voodoochile
11-26-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What's wrong with an owner of a team operating within a budget?

Is it just coincidental that Steinbrenner has the highest revenue and according to many the greatest "desire" to win? I don't think so.

I don't think that is coincidental at all. He has built an organization that makes winning (read: fan oriented success) the number one goal. Then he spends whatever it takes to get the team to the playoffs and beyond year after year after year. He hires experienced managers and gives them top notch baseball coaches. He gives his GM latitude to do whatever it takes to make the team a winner.

Then the fans support the franchise both by going to the stadium in droves but by forcing their cable companies to pick up the YES network. That in turn puts money back into the Yankee coffers.

It is just basic business. People will pay for quality time and time again. In baseball terms that means winning.

JR takes the opposite approach: make the team function within a budget and do the best you can with those limitations. The result is a mediocre team that doesn't take in much revenue and is stuck in neutral.

Example: you have two restaurants who serve similar style food. One of them never skimps on quality and constantly has great service, great food and the bathrooms are always spotless.

The other one has average service becuase they don't pay as well. There bathrooms are adequate, but unspectacular and the food is just average.

Which one will make more money? Which one will have more patrons night after night? Which one is the more succesful one?

The Yankees are Pili Pili. The Sox are Houlihan's...

Greg1983
11-26-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What's wrong with an owner of a team operating within a budget?

Is it just coincidental that Steinbrenner has the highest revenue and according to many the greatest "desire" to win? I don't think so.

No, it's not wrong for owners to operate within a budget, or to want to make a profit. We all know baseball is a business.

The problem is that Reinsdorf seems to have an inflated sense of what he needs to make a profit, or a severely depressed view of what his budget could be. He's in one of the weakest divisions in baseball, and every one of his divisional opponents is in a quintessentially "small" market. If he were willing to accept even a modest payroll, perhaps $70 million, he could field a team that could be making the playoffs consistently. And a prolonged period of winning baseball would likely drive ticket sales and TV revenues, which would allow him both a larger payroll and some more profit.

There's an old saying that you make money by spending money. Clearly, you can't spend stupidly, but you have to be willing to invest. But JR either can't or won't invest, which is why we're left to watch a team that disappointed in 2003 stand pat--or get a little worse. That's why he's a bad owner.

dickallen15
11-26-2003, 03:55 PM
While many here are proud of the White Sox 2003 attendance, with a contending team, a team that was in first place in September, and the All Star Game, the White Sox ranked 21st out of 30 teams. The only team who had a better record than them that had lower attendance was the world champions. Considering the White Sox must pay into the revenue sharing pot, where is the proof that Reinsdorf and friends are off on some island counting their money? The payroll is going up slightly over last season. Considering the fact that the team will lose some season ticketholders due to no All Star Game, this makes perfect sense. Before everyone gives up on the 2004 season, why don't you wait until at least spring training to see what the team is going to look like?

daveeym
11-26-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Maybe P. Diddy or Jay Z could buy the team :)

R. Kelly to the rescue.

Lip Man 1
11-26-2003, 04:58 PM
Dick:

The Sox were less then 300,000 short (I rounded it off) off the median MLB attendance in 2003.

Is that so bad?

You have some valid points but I'm wondering about your statement that raising attendance is a slow process. Can you explain a little bit more how you think the Sox can do that without winning?

If you think drawing more fans is based on marketing and PR then I'd have to think the Sox would need to field a brand new marketing department. do you think Uncle jerry is going to dump Rob Gallas anytime soon?..and with the Sox fan base at least in part, clamering for a consistent winner I don't think all the bells and whistles at the new park have much effect on whether or not they attend a game.

I would argue a sizable amount of those fans care more about winning and losing then if the seats are green or pointed towards second base or if there are ten more bathrooms in the park.

Lip

joecrede
11-26-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't think that is coincidental at all. He has built an organization that makes winning (read: fan oriented success) the number one goal.

What evidence do you have that Steinbrenner has made winning his number one goal or for that matter, Pirates owner Kevin McClatchey, has not?

Then he spends whatever it takes to get the team to the playoffs and beyond year after year after year.

Steinbrenner spends whatever it takes within his budget.

It is just basic business. People will pay for quality time and time again. In baseball terms that means winning.

People will not always pay for quality baseball. See 2003 Marlins.

JR takes the opposite approach: make the team function within a budget and do the best you can with those limitations. The result is a mediocre team that doesn't take in much revenue and is stuck in neutral.

Example: you have two restaurants who serve similar style food. One of them never skimps on quality and constantly has great service, great food and the bathrooms are always spotless.

The other one has average service becuase they don't pay as well. There bathrooms are adequate, but unspectacular and the food is just average.

Which one will make more money? Which one will have more patrons night after night? Which one is the more succesful one?

The Yankees are Pili Pili. The Sox are Houlihan's...

The White Sox restaurant is in direct competition with Minnesota's, Kansas City's, Cleveland's and Detroit's until their bathrooms are spotless I won't worry. :D:

dickallen15
11-26-2003, 05:29 PM
The White Sox biggest attendance jumped occurred when they moved into the new park. True, they were coming off an exciting season, a 2nd place finish which we are pretty used to around here, and added Tim Raines, but the draw was the new park. The die hard fans go to games, and will continue. If the Cubs and Sox only drew die hards, the Sox would have better attendance. The key is to get the casual fan to attend the game. Fireworks helps, bobbleheads help, the new renovations will help. Perception of the neighborhood needs to change, and will over time. The White Sox do a lot of surveys, and winning is NOT the big thing that attracts the casual fan. They like the amenities, things to do in the neighborhood where they could make a day out of going to the game ,etc. Do you really thing that the White Sox ticket office phones would be ringing off the hook tomorrow if they signed Colon, Ivan Rodriquez, and Castillo. I do agree with you about Gallas. He should have been let go years ago. I go to about 60 games a year. I can tell you there are a heck of a lot of people who are more interested in how many beers they can suck back, or nachos they could eat than the score of the game.

voodoochile
11-26-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What evidence do you have that Steinbrenner has made winning his number one goal or for that matter, Pirates owner Kevin McClatchey, has not? Steinbrenner spends whatever it takes within his budget. People will not always pay for quality baseball. See 2003 Marlins. The White Sox restaurant is in direct competition with Minnesota's, Kansas City's, Cleveland's and Detroit's until their bathrooms are spotless I won't worry. :D:

Then you won't be disappointed when the Sox finish no better than second again next year. See, I think the Sox are in competition with all of the other 29 teams. They won't make a major jump in revenue until they start acting like it either. Steinbrennar isn't happy with a pennant. He is only satisfied with a WS Championship. Meanwhile, Reinsdorf is competing with Miinesota, KC, Cleveland and Detroit. Even if that were true and all the Sox had to worry about was beating those 4 teams, when will they start doing it consistently? 2 division titles in the last 12 years really isn't that good of a record. Want to see what success breeds? Look at the Tribe teams from the mid-late 90's. Look at the Mariners over the same period of time. Both those teams spent money to build winners and the results are/were self-evident.

You think the Yankees could always afford to spend whatever they wanted? They built a winner and then kept it going. It has been how long since they failed to make the playoffs? How often over that stretch were they were eliminated before the ALC round? You think Steinbrennar is going to stop trying to win? He knows the truth. Winning = money = winning = money = winning...

I have no idea if the Pirates owner prioratizes winning over everything else. I don't think so from the results of that organization.

Again, quality has to be the priority if you want to increase your revenue, but it can become a self-sustaining cycle if you do it right. Reinsdorf has NO IDEA how to make it happen, and the proof as they say is in the pudding, perhaps you think the Sox have been successful these past 22 years. Me, I'd take Steinbrennar and his petty little tantrums any day of the week...

joecrede
11-26-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Then you won't be disappointed when the Sox finish no better than second again next year. See, I think the Sox are in competition with all of the other 29 teams. They won't make a major jump in revenue until they start acting like it either. Steinbrennar isn't happy with a pennant. He is only satisfied with a WS Championship. Meanwhile, Reinsdorf is competing with Miinesota, KC, Cleveland and Detroit. Even if that were true and all the Sox had to worry about was beating those 4 teams, when will they start doing it consistently? 2 division titles in the last 12 years really isn't that good of a record. Want to see what success breeds? Look at the Tribe teams from the mid-late 90's. Look at the Mariners over the same period of time. Both those teams spent money to build winners and the results are/were self-evident.

You think the Yankees could always afford to spend whatever they wanted? They built a winner and then kept it going. It has been how long since they failed to make the playoffs? How often over that stretch were they were eliminated before the ALC round? You think Steinbrennar is going to stop trying to win? He knows the truth. Winning = money = winning = money = winning...

I have no idea if the Pirates owner prioratizes winning over everything else. I don't think so from the results of that organization.

Again, quality has to be the priority if you want to increase your revenue, but it can become a self-sustaining cycle if you do it right. Reinsdorf has NO IDEA how to make it happen, and the proof as they say is in the pudding, perhaps you think the Sox have been successful these past 22 years. Me, I'd take Steinbrennar and his petty little tantrums any day of the week...

When do the Sox consistently win the AL Central? When they understand the market better and become ruthless in their personnel decisions. When they don't sign guys like Konerko and Koch for longer than one year. When they deal guys before their salary outweighs their production (i.e. Ordonez, Lee, and Buehrle). When they have payroll flexibility coupled with good talent evaluation to take advantage of the over 200 free-agents that will be available each off-season for the forseeable future.

History tells us that they won't make these ruthless decisions because, in part, they don't want to be perceived by the media and fans as being a small market team.

If the Sox can't compete financially with the big spenders that's okay with me. I don't care how much they spend. As long as they employ the appropriate strategy that gives them the best chance to win given their financial constraints real or imagined. They are not doing that currently in my view.

voodoochile
11-26-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
When do the Sox consistently win the AL Central? When they understand the market better and become ruthless in their personnel decisions. When they don't sign guys like Konerko and Koch for longer than one year. When they deal guys before their salary outweighs their production (i.e. Ordonez, Lee, and Buehrle). When they have payroll flexibility coupled with good talent evaluation to take advantage of the over 200 free-agents that will be available each off-season for the forseeable future.

History tells us that they won't make these ruthless decisions because, in part, they don't want to be perceived by the media and fans as being a small market team.

If the Sox can't compete financially with the big spenders that's okay with me. I don't care how much they spend. As long as they employ the appropriate strategy that gives them the best chance to win given their financial constraints real or imagined. They are not doing that currently in my view.

Right, so it is time to change the way they do business. Up the payroll, take the hit, field a winner this year no matter what the cost. Make a run at the playoffs no matter what for the next 5 years thus improving attendance and revenue and allowing them to consistently maintain a higher payroll level thus giving them more flexibility in the future for when they do make mistakes. Then use some of that increased revenue/increased money spent on day to day opperations to pay for some genuine scouting talent and an experienced front office/field manager.

The mistakes could be overcome with a few more dollars. If it doesn't work they can always go back to being cheapskates and trying to make it work on a shoestring budget, or sell the team when it has a higher value in 5 years and let someone else take their crack.

You are making my arguments for me. Thanks...

joecrede
11-26-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Right, so it is time to change the way they do business. Up the payroll, take the hit, field a winner this year no matter what the cost. Make a run at the playoffs no matter what for the next 5 years thus improving attendance and revenue and allowing them to consistently maintain a higher payroll level thus giving them more flexibility in the future for when they do make mistakes. Then use some of that increased revenue/increased money spent on day to day opperations to pay for some genuine scouting talent and an experienced front office/field manager.

The mistakes could be overcome with a few more dollars. If it doesn't work they can always go back to being cheapskates and trying to make it work on a shoestring budget, or sell the team when it has a higher value in 5 years and let someone else take their crack.

You are making my arguments for me. Thanks...

What is your definition of fielding a winner? Do you honestly believe this team will NOT make a run at the playoffs with a $58M payroll?

voodoochile
11-26-2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What is your definition of fielding a winner? Do you honestly believe this team will NOT make a run at the playoffs with a $58M payroll?

I don't know. I think KC and Minnesota are both going to be as good or better next year and people keep saying that Cleveland has a young talented team (I don't have an opinion, just know what I read).

The Sox have too many high paid mistakes and I think they will either be forced to eat those contracts (thus making signing the pitching they need impossible) or will be forced to trade Maggs to get the pitching they need thus messing up the offense badly (can they win with Konerko, Koch, Harris, Rowand and Borchard/Reed all in the lineup?).

I don't trust it to happen. I think they should go for a long term higher level of salary and prove to the fans they care about winning. They have to make a move now, because the other team they compete with (those local lovable losers) are going to be a solid club for the foreseeable future. They cannot afford to fall further behind in the race for the heart and minds of Chicago fans.

DannyCaterFan
11-26-2003, 08:21 PM
With the late season surge in attendance, it was obvious the White Sox fans bought into Kenny William's mid season moves that gave fans a hope for a championship in 2003. For the first time in many years, I know I felt like they were genuinely serious about advancing beyond 1 playoff round. As it turned out those moves were hampered by a non-motivated manager, and a group of players that just didn't care.
With the renewed fan interest peaking, and the changes to the parK looking good, Sox fans should expect nothing less than an increase of at least $10 million to their 2004 budget. that is the only thing that will help them stay competitive and keep the turnstyles spinning. jerry, you owe us at least that much, or please sell this team.

ondafarm
11-26-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
While many here are proud of the White Sox 2003 attendance, with a contending team, a team that was in first place in September, and the All Star Game, the White Sox ranked 21st out of 30 teams. The only team who had a better record than them that had lower attendance was the world champions. Considering the White Sox must pay into the revenue sharing pot, where is the proof that Reinsdorf and friends are off on some island counting their money? The payroll is going up slightly over last season. Considering the fact that the team will lose some season ticketholders due to no All Star Game, this makes perfect sense. Before everyone gives up on the 2004 season, why don't you wait until at least spring training to see what the team is going to look like?

Yes, but you are ignoring one thing. The White Sox have no stadium expenses (the Illinois taxpayer picks all of that up) and they pay no rent if attendance is under a certain figure (something like 1.5 million.) Above that its a sliding figure. And the Sox get virtually all of the profit from stadium revenue. Its one of the sweetest stadium deals in the history of sports. It virtually guarentees profits for the team regardless of how the team is (mis)handled.

Lip Man 1
11-26-2003, 09:55 PM
Contrary to some perceptions the Yankees didn't always win and Yankee Stadium was half empty during the early 90's. I've got the video against the Sox to prove it.

Steinbrenner was making noises about getting a new stadium in NYC or perhaps moving the club to New Jersey. He got neither. It was then he realized if he was going to start making money again in the New York market, particularly from the sale of his radio / TV rights over the years, he BETTER start winning like he did in the late 70's..

He used the war between Cablevision and MSG Network as leverage and got money out of it. It looks like he used that money to start restocking his team which led to winning seasons which led to increased attendence which led to more good players which led to a string of World Championships and so forth.

If this model works why don't the Sox copy it on a smaller level? Are the Sox as some have commented, that stupid of an organization? or is it that they are obstinate, arrogant and refuse to try anything but what they perceive to be right. (Kind of like Andrew, the self proclaimed genius, and his stat buddies.)

Lip

cwsox
11-26-2003, 10:41 PM
I find JR should sell threads to be terribly amusing.

First, if you want him to sell the team, buy it from him. Otherwise this is all meaningless chatter.

Second, oft forgotten, is that when JR bought the team he saved it for Chicago. The well may have been sold to those who would have moved it. In the naming contract, JR extended the Sox lease at USCF for another 15 years (I think), well into the 2020s. For some of us who remember how often we almost lost the Sox in the late 60s and 70s and early 80s until JR bought them, I am thankful JR cared enough to extend the Sox lease, and thus them staying in Chicago, for many years after he is gone.

Third, JR is in his 70s. Anyone who wishes another human being to die - especially over sports - is sick. Again, I am thankful JR cared enough to extend the Sox lease, and thus them staying in Chicago, for many years after he is gone.

I am no big fan of JR. Not at all.

But threads like JR should sell are just silly unless you are prepared to buy them, and the human cruelty expressed in a few threads bothers me. There is much to criticize in a review of the JR years, but the blind hatred is more than annoying.

Daver
11-26-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by cwsox
I find JR should sell threads to be terribly amusing.

First, if you want him to sell the team, buy it from him. Otherwise this is all meaningless chatter.

Second, oft forgotten, is that when JR bought the team he saved it for Chicago. The well may have been sold to those who would have moved it. In the naming contract, JR extended the Sox lease at USCF for another 15 years (I think), well into the 2020s. For some of us who remember how often we almost lost the Sox in the late 60s and 70s and early 80s until JR bought them, I am thankful JR cared enough to extend the Sox lease, and thus them staying in Chicago, for many years after he is gone.

Third, JR is in his 70s. Anyone who wishes another human being to die - especially over sports - is sick. Again, I am thankful JR cared enough to extend the Sox lease, and thus them staying in Chicago, for many years after he is gone.

I am no big fan of JR. Not at all.

But threads like JR should sell are just silly unless you are prepared to buy them, and the human cruelty expressed in a few threads bothers me. There is much to criticize in a review of the JR years, but the blind hatred is more than annoying.

This is the same JR that twisted the arms of the state senate in 1989 to build him a stadium at their expense or he was taking his team and moving to Florida.

This is the same JR that announced 23 years ago that he was going to turn things around and make the White Sox a first class organization,and proceeded to make horrible decisions from that day on.The only thing that has run true throughout his tenure as managing partner is the fact that he will spend when it suits his purpose,not when it is for the good of the team.

I don't hate Jerry Reinsdorf,but I would be happier if he collected his 250 mil as his ROI and let someone else take over.

cwsox
11-26-2003, 11:43 PM
We differ on this - JR has spent at different times, sometimes it paid off when he camped on Luzinski's door and go Fisk, sometimes not when he got Belle and signed some pitchers to long term contracts. 3 division championships (4 if you count 94) hold up pretty well for what other owners did.

In my opinion, the St Petersburg thing was pure ploy and not a real threat to move - we have seen real possibilities of moving and that didn't seem like more than a political gambit.

We have people saying JR should spend this or that, usually multiples of tens of millions more than he does. And many of these same folks who tell JR to spend 10-20 million are the same ones who cried when they had to buy a cheap sat at USCF and actually be expected to sit there - the thought of having to spend a few bucks more to sit where they wanted outraged them. Kind of ironic to me.

Again, I am no big fan of JR but like all of has his good points which ought be remembered in any evaluation rather than the blind bashing. And Daver, I am not suggesting you do blind bashing- but some do.

Lip Man 1
11-27-2003, 11:11 AM
I'm sure the people of the Tampa area including the politicians and area business leaders thoroughly enjoyed being used as a ploy.

If it was a ploy then authors as diverse at John Helyar of the N.Y. Times and Keith Oberrman then with ESPN were grossly misled.

Lip

dickallen15
11-27-2003, 11:41 AM
Didn't the beloved Bill Veeck, a man who cried poor, but offered Reggie Jackson more money than the Yankees did, almost sell the team to Marvin Davis, who would have moved it to Denver?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-27-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Didn't the beloved Bill Veeck, a man who cried poor, but offered Reggie Jackson more money than the Yankees did, almost sell the team to Marvin Davis, who would have moved it to Denver?

Yep, it's true. That makes Veeck one more link in the unbroken chain of horrible Sox owners that have doomed this franchise to 80+ years of mediocrity, stretching all the way back to the Old Roman and on to the present day.

Blaming Sox Fans for this is like blaming a rape victim.

CubKilla
11-27-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by cwsox
We have people saying JR should spend this or that, usually multiples of tens of millions more than he does. And many of these same folks who tell JR to spend 10-20 million are the same ones who cried when they had to buy a cheap sat at USCF and actually be expected to sit there - the thought of having to spend a few bucks more to sit where they wanted outraged them. Kind of ironic to me.

Again, I am no big fan of JR but like all of has his good points which ought be remembered in any evaluation rather than the blind bashing. And Daver, I am not suggesting you do blind bashing- but some do.

We wouldn't be crying if he raised ticket and parking prices AND raised payroll to coincide with the ticket and parking increase. A payroll comparable to the past season when the Sox finished 2nd with no appreciable signing of talent during the offseason is what I..... and many other Sox fans..... have a problem with.

Saying JR has his goodpoints reeks of the type of banter that you hear from a neighbor when someone next door to them is arrested for killing 20 boys. "He was always so quiet", or, "He was the nicest man we knew. Always came over and helped the elderly rake leaves in the fall, shovel snow in the winter, etc."

When are the JR backers going to realize that Jerry Reinsdorf KILLED White Sox baseball in Chicago? The final nail in the coffin may have been 2003.

dickallen15
11-27-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
We wouldn't be crying if he raised ticket and parking prices AND raised payroll to coincide with the ticket and parking increase. A payroll comparable to the past season when the Sox finished 2nd with no appreciable signing of talent during the offseason is what I..... and many other Sox fans..... have a problem with.

Saying JR has his goodpoints reeks of the type of banter that you hear from a neighbor when someone next door to them is arrested for killing 20 boys. "He was always so quiet", or, "He was the nicest man we knew. Always came over and helped the elderly rake leaves in the fall, shovel snow in the winter, etc."

When are the JR backers going to realize that Jerry Reinsdorf KILLED White Sox baseball in Chicago? The final nail in the coffin may have been 2003.

White Sox baseball was dead when Reinsdorf came to town, and that was back when the Cubs used to close the upper deck, because of a lack of attendees. If the Cubs were as popular in 1981 as they are now, the White Sox would have been long gone.

CubKilla
11-27-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
White Sox baseball was dead when Reinsdorf came to town, and that was back when the Cubs used to close the upper deck, because of a lack of attendees. If the Cubs were as popular in 1981 as they are now, the White Sox would have been long gone.

Quite possible. But, by your own admission, the White Sox under Jerry Reinsdorf screwed it up. I know you know the multitude of reasons why this is so. No reason to go into it here. In 1981, baseball fans were there for the taking. Fast forward 20 years and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize who did what right.

doogiec
11-27-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'm sure the people of the Tampa area including the politicians and area business leaders thoroughly enjoyed being used as a ploy.

If it was a ploy then authors as diverse at John Helyar of the N.Y. Times and Keith Oberrman then with ESPN were grossly misled.

Lip

It didn't seem to bother them too much. The Twins threatened to move to Tampa when they want out of Metropolitan Stadium, the Indians threatened to move to Tampa to get the Jake and the Orioles used the same threat to get their park. I believe the Rangers were part of that whole scenario also. If you want tax money to build a stadium, that's how you get it done. No threat, no money, especially in Illinois. It took the Bears 28 years of "negotiating" to get their deal done. And don't forget, Illinois agreed to build the new park two years before Reinsdorf used the Tampa threat to get the financing in place. He gave them plenty of time to keep their promises voluntarily.

By the way, Reinsdorf's group turned down a better deal from Tampa to stay here. 20 years rent and tax free. No attendance clauses.

doogiec
11-27-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
When are the JR backers going to realize that Jerry Reinsdorf KILLED White Sox baseball in Chicago? The final nail in the coffin may have been 2003.

White Sox baseball was DOA when Reinsdorf's group bought the team. If you don't believe me, look at the standings and attendance figures in the late seventies. From 1978 on, DEAD. So dead, in fact, that the same Bill Veeck that risked his own money and fought so hard to save the team in the mid seventies gave up on the team and its fans and would have moved it to Denver had his health held up.

By the way, before Reinsdorf's group bought this team, an 86 win season would have cause riotous celebration and joy for Sox fans, now its the nail in the coffin. Thats proof that things have improved during this time frame, unfortunately not enough.

Dick Allen
11-27-2003, 01:54 PM
If JR won't sell, maybe a Michael Corleone/Moe Green scenario.....?

IronFisk
11-27-2003, 04:43 PM
I agree with a post earlier - what the hell are all these "death" wishes about - not even CLOSE to funny dimwits.

As for Reinsdorf, I can't say very many owners are all that popular to begin with - not exactly the lovable type. Even so, I believe that JR has done his best to make the Sox a contender. By the way, if it was easy, wouldn't EVERYONE be doing it - include some of you morons who bitch so openly! I'd love to see any of you have a shot at ownership anywhere.

Let me see, so many of you are ready to hang JR, and all he has done for the Sox is resurrect them from total collapse in 81, renovated Old Comiskey, got a new stadium built, oversaw three division titles, and several more seasons above .500 - including the last which someone has the genius to equate to the Sox's swan song - pathetic!!!

To be honest, what I have seen in the last three years proves that JR is working very hard on seeing this team rise to the top, and appease the fan base. Big trades & millions to renovate the Cell I think prove that out well. Look, in June, ALL OF US were VERY excited at the Sox making the right moves to win - and up until mid-Sept., it almost worked. JR can't jump out of his booth to bat (thank God!), and he really can't meddle too much with KW if he wants him to be effective.

All I know about JR is that he DOES want to win - how do you explain his Bulls success? Sorry that he doesn't have the Michael Jordan of baseball, but at one time Frank was close.

Before I get a tidal wave of replies - please note that I am not happy with everything that JR has done - price increases, 1994 and keeping Bevington and Manuel too long to name a few. However, I feel he is doing the best he can to win, and we have to do the best to support this team - instead of scattering at the first sign of failure.

Besides, its not like we can do anything about it - lets just focus on supporting this team, and realizing that complaining is fine, lets just make sensible.

cwsox
11-27-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by IronFisk
I agree with a post earlier - what the hell are all these "death" wishes about - not even CLOSE to funny dimwits.

As for Reinsdorf, I can't say very many owners are all that popular to begin with - not exactly the lovable type. Even so, I believe that JR has done his best to make the Sox a contender. By the way, if it was easy, wouldn't EVERYONE be doing it - include some of you morons who bitch so openly! I'd love to see any of you have a shot at ownership anywhere.

Let me see, so many of you are ready to hang JR, and all he has done for the Sox is resurrect them from total collapse in 81, renovated Old Comiskey, got a new stadium built, oversaw three division titles, and several more seasons above .500 - including the last which someone has the genius to equate to the Sox's swan song - pathetic!!!

To be honest, what I have seen in the last three years proves that JR is working very hard on seeing this team rise to the top, and appease the fan base. Big trades & millions to renovate the Cell I think prove that out well. Look, in June, ALL OF US were VERY excited at the Sox making the right moves to win - and up until mid-Sept., it almost worked. JR can't jump out of his booth to bat (thank God!), and he really can't meddle too much with KW if he wants him to be effective.

All I know about JR is that he DOES want to win - how do you explain his Bulls success? Sorry that he doesn't have the Michael Jordan of baseball, but at one time Frank was close.

Before I get a tidal wave of replies - please note that I am not happy with everything that JR has done - price increases, 1994 and keeping Bevington and Manuel too long to name a few. However, I feel he is doing the best he can to win, and we have to do the best to support this team - instead of scattering at the first sign of failure.

Besides, its not like we can do anything about it - lets just focus on supporting this team, and realizing that complaining is fine, lets just make sensible.


repeated your post because I liked it

PaulDrake
11-27-2003, 05:57 PM
I'm still having a hard time understanding why you're not allowed to criticize this owner or any owner if you're just a working stiff unable to buy the team. Today is Thanksgiving Day and I hope everyone is having a great day. I hope JR is having a great day with his family too. I hope someone at his dinner table tells him its time to sell at a great profit and enjoy a prosperous free of stress old age.

duke of dorwood
11-27-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
I'm still having a hard time understanding why you're not allowed to criticize this owner or any owner if you're just a working stiff unable to buy the team. Today is Thanksgiving Day and I hope everyone is having a great day. I hope JR is having a great day with his family too. I hope someone at his dinner table tells him its time to sell at a great profit and enjoy a prosperous free of stress old age.
And If he dont sell, none of us will enjoy a free of stress old age.

joecrede
11-27-2003, 09:07 PM
For those who want a major increase in the payroll here's an idea.

Under the terms of the lease the state has to purchase any tickets under 1.5 million, I believe at the average ticket price. What Reinsdorf should do then is raise the average ticket price to $100. That's a guaranteed $150 million in revenue.

Think of the free-agents we could attract the following year.

Greg1983
11-28-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by DannyCaterFan

With the renewed fan interest peaking, and the changes to the parK looking good, Sox fans should expect nothing less than an increase of at least $10 million to their 2004 budget. that is the only thing that will help them stay competitive and keep the turnstyles spinning. jerry, you owe us at least that much, or please sell this team.

Very, very well put! With a $10 million boost in payroll, you'd think the Sox would be able to hang on to at least 2 or 3 of the big names that came here last year. It would not only be a good baseball move, but good lord think of the goodwill it would offer to alienated Sox fans.

I wonder if JR really thinks our attendance spiked in the latter half of the season because of the paint job or the fan deck in center field. I think most of us do like the renovations, but you'd think he would see that a team consistently playing championship-caliber baseball is what will really bring in fans and help him make more money...if not on a yearly, operational basis, then certainly in the net worth of the franchise.

I wonder if JR is thinking that he needs to win over Sox fans the way the Cubs win over their "fans" (if you can really call them "fans.") I wonder if perhaps he doesn't understand that Sox fans are a different, more intelligent breed, who actually understand the game and care about winning more than a cute ballpark. Again, the renovations are nice, but give me a World Series!

Jerry, know thy customer.

IronFisk
11-28-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by cwsox
repeated your post because I liked it

Thanks...I thought YOU'D like it :D:

ChiSoxBobette
12-01-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by DannyCaterFan
While the crosstown Cubs continue to steal the Chicago headlines away from the White Sox with their expanded payroll and popular trades, the Sox continue to tinker with their modest $60 million budget. With all the hoopla over a playoff team on the north side this past year, one would think that jerry reinsdorf and company would be doing all they can to compete just so they will be noticed on baseball's radar screen in 2004.
Nothing is ever going to change on the south side unless they open up the coffers, expand the budget, and sign the key players needed to compete for a championship. As it stands now, we can't even hold on o the players we have that have performed well. Year after year, White Sox fans say goodbye to players lie Colon, Gordon, and Ordonez, while we are forcefed the likes of Billy Koch, whom the Sox say is throwing well again (Well if that is rue is he throwing 99 miles an hour again?)
Time has come for the Chairman of the (Bored) to sell this franchise. Let's find a new owner with the yearning for a championship team, one that will pay for what we need. With 2 million fans last year and a great TV deal, where is all the money going, back in their pockets?? Time to move on Jerry.
Don't say that on whitesox.com theres some knucklehead over there that is the great defender of our idiot owner. 20 years of this guy Reinsdorf and we have nothing to show for it. Next year it could be even worse with the scrubs loading up and us unloading. Reinsdorf has got to be the biggest idiot owner in the majors all he had to do is look at last year when we were in 1st place and then fighting for 1st place , US cell was filled but I guess Reinsdorf will never open the purse and go for it , so unless he decides to sell White Sox fans are in for a world of hurt the next few seasons.
:angry: :angry:

TheRockinMT
12-01-2003, 12:30 PM
I am not sure what the real financial situation is for the Reinsdorf group, but with the apparent loss of another Sox free agent in Gordon I have to wonder just what the bottom line is for this ownership group. They go out and sell the naming rights of Comiskey Park (which is the very essence of the team history) to a cell phone company. The idea is to rebuild the park, which was a disaster from the time it was built, and lure the fans back. Then they turn around and apparently are going to cut payroll and put an inferior team on the field in 2004. I am struggling with my feelings here, knowing on one hand that no player is rally worth the kind of money going to people like A-Rod, Schilling, Sheffield, et al, but on the other wanting a Sox winner. I am not going to be satisfied with the AL Central either I want to win it all in 2004. However, Reinsdorf is a huge supporter of Bud Seling, whose team in going to settle for about a $30M a year payroll and I am beginning to wonder if Reinsdorf will do the same? And then you have George Steinbrenner and to some degree he is being challenged by the Red Sox and Phillies ownership as far as spending money is concerned. I don't know if we can compete like the Marlins did because our farm system just doesn't seem to be as deep, however i can see a move towards bringing in the youngsters to fill spots after trades this off season and we will live and die with as many as 3-4 new faces on the field next year.