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Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 11:41 PM
I and others have advocated that the only way for the Sox to break the cycle of mediocrity, of small market thinking and of being second class citizens, is to dramatically raise the payroll, get good players in quantity and make a statement.

If that means Uncle Jerry and his investors can only afford to buy two BMW's instead of five every year so be it.

This approach has been critisized by some.

Fair enough.

But can others suggest possible courses of action that can change things for this organization? I'm curious to know what other ways there might be.

Off hand I can think of two....develop a kick ass farm system, wait five years and start winning (which at times is what the Sox have tried with mixed results at best.)

or hope to get lucky big time like the Marlins (and we know how the Sox luck runs...)

The floor's open. If someone can suggest a solid plan that makes sense, I'm willing to consider it and change my thinking.

Thanks,
Lip

nodiggity59
11-26-2003, 12:11 AM
First of all - Best thread I've seen in my short tenure here.

While I give it some thought I would just like to say that mediocrity seems destined for us given that we split the city with the Flubs. Now, perhaps that fact doesn't justify our insanely low payroll, but it does ensure mediocrity in the face of the two NY teams, LA, etc. Bottom line, the Sox can only be "middle class" spenders.

So the goal, I think, would be to ascend to our middle of the pack status instead of dangling in the bottom third.

Does a mediocre payroll = a mediocre franchise?

Well, if so then that means money is everything and in that case they shouldn't bother playing at all. IMO that's where the character of the organization and its fans steps in.

But the Sox certainly don't help their cause by not spending to their full potential.

ondafarm
11-26-2003, 06:43 AM
The other possibility is for JR to sell.

Chicago is split between the Flubs and the White Sox. There are similiar numbers of die hard fans and a lot of people who just love to follow baseball. (Mind you, not me. I root for whomever is playing the Flubs.) The category of baseball fans is much larger in Chicago, because of the population, than most cities in MLB. Cincinatti is a small market team. Milwaukee is possibly the worst small market team, because they have Chicago so close.

I don't buy any of the excuses for the White Sox having a small market attitude. Like the man says "play for one run, one run is all you get." I say Act small market, small market is all you'll ever be. This teams troubles come almost entirely from JR.

gosox41
11-26-2003, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I and others have advocated that the only way for the Sox to break the cycle of mediocrity, of small market thinking and of being second class citizens, is to dramatically raise the payroll, get good players in quantity and make a statement.

If that means Uncle Jerry and his investors can only afford to buy two BMW's instead of five every year so be it.

This approach has been critisized by some.

Fair enough.



Lip,
I think you're missing the point on why that approach is criticized. It's not like I wouldn't like to see this team make teir payroll $200 mill. But it's just not possible. Running a baseball team today is a tough business. It is further proven that much harder when fans come out and criticize ownesrs by saying they can only buy 2 BMW's instead of 5. Whatever.

I underrstand that some may not have business backgrounds. But a lot of intelligent people post here. These are people who are highly skeptical of a lot of things, but not the Sox finances. Never mind they haven't seen them, they're more then happy to bring up outdated accounting practices as how the Sox currently make money or they believe that JR owns Sportsservice (which someone here disproved.)

Ignorance is no excuse if you're going to go spouting your mouth off and twisting twisting the facts about something you don't know much about to begin with. What makes it worse is these same people believe JR "owes" then something out of Civic Pride or something. These same people that compalin about mediocre products and the price of seeing this mediocre product are the same one's who claim not to have a lot of money yet keep spending that giving that hard earned money to that ogre Jerry Reinsdorf in the name of family tradition.

It gets lame. If you want to break this team out of it's viscious cyclle Lip, use the media. You are part of the media, take advantage of the resources. Publiciz the possible hike in ticket prices, start a letter writing campaign to the team, organize a boycott outside of the stadium and have your connections come and film it for t he news. But the last thing you should be doing is attending games while doing all this complaining. If JR is as ruthless as you think then he doesn't care. He's probably laughing at people like you, people who whine yet still spend $$$ to support his team.

Bob

joepoe
11-26-2003, 07:43 AM
Reinsdork must sell.

FanOf14
11-26-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by joepoe
Reinsdork must sell.

I second this motion.

Tekijawa
11-26-2003, 09:33 AM
How about all you season ticket holders give me the season ticket Money... I'll buy a theater open up a bar in the back and we can watch the games on a 70 foot tall screen, it can be BYOB and I'll serve some food! Anyone want to go in on this with me? We can charge like 6 bucks to get in No long lines at the bathroom, as if I ever had to worry about this at Comiskey and you don't have to worry about rain outs, for those of you who's wives/Girlfrieds/or yourself like to go to the game for the Tan, we'll install some Tanning beds at a latter date. At the end of the year we'll send Reinsdorf a list of how many poeple attended each of our shoings and a financial statement with all of the profits he missed out on...

Let's Do it! We can call it Teki's Tiki Sox Bar and Grill!

washington
11-26-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
develop a kick ass farm system, wait five years and start winning (which at times is what the Sox have tried with mixed results at best.)

IMO the only way this can work is if they maintain (preferably increase) their current payroll while beefing up their scouting and minor league systems. Then supplement their roster with young players, rather than going all-young. The problem is that if Reinsdorf goes young & waits for players to develop he also slashes payroll, which has failed miserably (1997 to 1999; Chicago Bulls from 1999 to today).

hold2dibber
11-26-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Lip,
I think you're missing the point on why that approach is criticized. It's not like I wouldn't like to see this team make teir payroll $200 mill. But it's just not possible. Running a baseball team today is a tough business. It is further proven that much harder when fans come out and criticize ownesrs by saying they can only buy 2 BMW's instead of 5. Whatever.

I underrstand that some may not have business backgrounds. But a lot of intelligent people post here. These are people who are highly skeptical of a lot of things, but not the Sox finances. Never mind they haven't seen them, they're more then happy to bring up outdated accounting practices as how the Sox currently make money or they believe that JR owns Sportsservice (which someone here disproved.)

Ignorance is no excuse if you're going to go spouting your mouth off and twisting twisting the facts about something you don't know much about to begin with. What makes it worse is these same people believe JR "owes" then something out of Civic Pride or something. These same people that compalin about mediocre products and the price of seeing this mediocre product are the same one's who claim not to have a lot of money yet keep spending that giving that hard earned money to that ogre Jerry Reinsdorf in the name of family tradition.

It gets lame. If you want to break this team out of it's viscious cyclle Lip, use the media. You are part of the media, take advantage of the resources. Publiciz the possible hike in ticket prices, start a letter writing campaign to the team, organize a boycott outside of the stadium and have your connections come and film it for t he news. But the last thing you should be doing is attending games while doing all this complaining. If JR is as ruthless as you think then he doesn't care. He's probably laughing at people like you, people who whine yet still spend $$$ to support his team.

Bob

I don't think Reinsdorf owes it to fans to operate at a deficit (though I wish he would - and I'd like to think that if I were in his shoes, I would). I also freely admit that I don't really know how much money the Sox make on a year-to-year basis (although I am confident that the value of the franchise has increased tremendously during the current regime's ownership). But here's what I believe - that the way this franchise is operated now is a recipe for failure. Because of the egregious and repeated PR blunders the franchise has made over the last 20 years, they have put themselves in a position where just being mediocre isn't going to cut it, and is going to inexorably lead to the loss of market share and fan base to the Cubs (and/or to NASCAR, the WNBA and professional lacrosse, for that matter). They have to do something different, because what they're doing now isn't working. For JR's own sake, IMHO, he's best served by opening up his wallett for a few years and trying like hell to win and win big. That way he recaptures and reinvigorates the fan base, and puts the Sox back on the map. Continued mediocrity means a slow and steady demise.

miker
11-26-2003, 09:51 AM
Just need a billionaire to ride in on a white horse to buy the team from Uncle Jerry. Someone who's willing to take risk to attract new fans and take on the Cubune media giant...

...yeah, like THAT'S going to happen.

CubKilla
11-26-2003, 10:08 AM
The only course of action to break the cycle of mediocrity is for JR to sell the team to someone who actually gives a ****.

Dadawg_77
11-26-2003, 10:09 AM
First, fire Kenny Williams.
Hire, Paul DePodesta. Have him develop a system wide plan on how and who to scout and develop players. He is a major part of organization which has won more game then anyone the past years at a fraction of the price anyone else pays. Also find a couple financial wiz on wall street and offer him a job in helping run a baseball team.

Second, cut the prices in the upper deck in half, raise the lower deck prices by 10-20 percent. Keep enforcing the lower deck ticket needed for the lower deck access policy. This should raise profits and money the team has to get players.

Third, if not done already, hire medical experts to put a database together of every single injury in baseball and how it effects a player performance. This could help the team get good players for cheap as it gives the team additional knowledge.

Fourth, fire Ozzie or make sure he has read and study Earl Weaver's books on managing. If not Ozzie hire a Weaver clone to manage the team. Hell, if he is willing, hire Weaver as a executive consultant.

voodoochile
11-26-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't think Reinsdorf owes it to fans to operate at a deficit (though I wish he would - and I'd like to think that if I were in his shoes, I would). I also freely admit that I don't really know how much money the Sox make on a year-to-year basis (although I am confident that the value of the franchise has increased tremendously during the current regime's ownership). But here's what I believe - that the way this franchise is operated now is a recipe for failure. Because of the egregious and repeated PR blunders the franchise has made over the last 20 years, they have put themselves in a position where just being mediocre isn't going to cut it, and is going to inexorably lead to the loss of market share and fan base to the Cubs (and/or to NASCAR, the WNBA and professional lacrosse, for that matter). They have to do something different, because what they're doing now isn't working. For JR's own sake, IMHO, he's best served by opening up his wallett for a few years and trying like hell to win and win big. That way he recaptures and reinvigorates the fan base, and puts the Sox back on the map. Continued mediocrity means a slow and steady demise.

That is where JR fails miserably. He doesn't have to operate at a "loss" for very long. If he proves that year in and year out he will do whatever it takes to field a winner, the fans will start coming out in droves and pretty soon he would be drawing 2.5M fans a season year after year. There are plenty of fansm in the Chicagoland area. Even if he does "lose money" for a year or even two, he would make that up in no time with increased attendance and higher revenue, not to mention the value of the franchise itself would increase thus increasing his already large unrealized profit.

Spend money to make money. JR doesn't get it and he never will. He won't spend money unless it doesn't belong to him. Which is evident in his blaming the fans game he likes to run on about. He'll spend our money if and when we give it to him, but he won't risk dime one of his own to build the winner that will bring in the fans who will then pay him back. He is all about risk aversion and just doesn't understand that baseball is about taking risks to increase the odds of winning to bring in more fans to put more money in the coffers to take more risks to further increase the odds of winning to bring in even more fans to...etc.

It's a steady cycle upwards, but JR likes to play it safe and sound and hire on the cheap and build through the farm system and let players go when they become expensive. You have to be the greatest player in the history of your sport to get him to pay you for many years and even then you have to sign single year contracts because anything longer is just too damned risky...

windycityson
11-26-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
I second this motion.

CAN WE START A PETITION TO DETHONE UNCLE JER?!!!

windy :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

Hangar18
11-26-2003, 10:45 AM
Sell Jerry Sell.
His ownership isnt working

Hondo
11-26-2003, 11:52 AM
We need to follow Boston's model

-A smart billionaire owner who wants the team he has to win.(John Henry)
-A wise guiding hand who has had success and can evaluate front office talent as well as anyone and has a deep disdain for the team's cheif competition (Larry Luchino)
-A young smart GM who is well versed in Bill Jamesian theories and has a connection to the ballclub. (Theo Epstein)
-Hire a genuis, sabermetrician advisor (Bill James)

Success comes from the top. Strive to have the best people in all aspects of this game. From the owner to the janitors.

I believe JR wants this team to win but I don't think he can operate outside of the box. Baseball is changing and the Red Sox are ahead of the curve.

We need to also replenish our farm system and look overseas for potential talent. We need to locate the up and coming hotbeds of baseball and mine that talent. (I.E-Dallas in the NBA)

We can no longer operate in the staunchy way we have been. I think we need to blow the whole thing up and start again.

Chicago sports seem to be in collusion to have mediocre teams that are boring, mismanaged, unimaginative, and perform poorly. The White Sox need to become a 21st century franchise and they need to start NOW!

I believe KW has promise. He just doesn't have the sort of free reign other GM's do. I'm in the minority but I like JR but I feel he needs to step aside if he really wants his dream of brining a world series to Chicago.

voodoochile
11-26-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Success comes from the top. Strive to have the best people in all aspects of this game. From the owner to the janitors.

I believe JR wants this team to win but I don't think he can operate outside of the box. Baseball is changing and the Red Sox are ahead of the curve.

Your second statement doesn't agree with your first one. If JR truly wanted to win, he would go find qualified experienced people to fill all of those management positions and then agree to a payroll increase to make sure they could fill the player positions they need to with qualified talented athletes.

JR continues to do things the cheap way where people with little or no experience doing the job they are hired to do are told to keep the payroll low and do the best they can under those constraints. If JR truly wanted to win, he would stop trying to force his square pegs into round holes because they are cost effective pegs...

Hullett_Fan
11-26-2003, 12:24 PM
At this point JR needs to increase payroll $20 mil. and sign 2 starters, a closer, a 2B, and a CF.

There's no time for (another) 5 to 10 year plan because if they field a .500 or worse team in the next few seasons and the Cubs win it all in the next year or 2 (they're on pace to do it), this team might as well head to Vegas, DC, Charlotte, etc.

Hondo
11-26-2003, 12:24 PM
You're right. I mispoke. I guess what I mean is that I think he wants them to win, obviously but doesn't know what that takes. He can't recognize his own shortcomings and even if he did I don't believe he could change them. He has a skewed perception of himself and he is the chief reason this team doesn't win.

Lip Man 1
11-26-2003, 12:43 PM
A few comments:

First Hullett fan...you are correct as I've stated before this team is on life support now, if the Cubs get to the series (they don't even have to win it) back up the trucks.

Hondo...that's a very interesting well thought out post. Obviously you subscribe to the statistical approach to baseball.

I have a question though...what happens when the statistical followers lose their edge?

Here's what I mean. My friend who is the sports editor of the Idaho State Journal is a monster baseball fan (he's from Minnesota) and a huge Billy Beane fan. He mentioned this last week to me. He said already the Red Sox and Blue Jays are copying Beane and the A's. He thinks in a few years maybe three or four more teams are going to follow this model. Then another couple teams will pick up on it in five years time.

Soon the majority of teams in baseball are going to be looking for players who walk a lot and have a high on base percentage. He asked then what will determine success?

Answer....exactly what determines it now....money.

When all teams are following Beane's approach, the teams that are going to be able to get the players that fit the mold, either in the majors or draft picks, are going to get them because they can buy them or pay them the most money.

I found it very interesting. If true it comes back to what a number of folks on the board have been postulating at the start...the only way to win regardless of your approach, seems to be to spend money... lots of money.

Lip

Hondo
11-26-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A few comments:

First Hullett fan...you are correct as I've stated before this team is on life support now, if the Cubs get to the series (they don't even have to win it) back up the trucks.

Hondo...that's a very interesting well thought out post. Obviously you subscribe to the statistical approach to baseball.

I have a question though...what happens when the statistical followers lose their edge?

Here's what I mean. My friend who is the sports editor of the Idaho State Journal is a monster baseball fan (he's from Minnesota) and a huge Billy Beane fan. He mentioned this last week to me. He said already the Red Sox and Blue Jays are copying Beane and the A's. He thinks in a few years maybe three or four more teams are going to follow this model. Then another couple teams will pick up on it in five years time.

Soon the majority of teams in baseball are going to be looking for players who walk a lot and have a high on base percentage. He asked then what will determine success?

Answer....exactly what determines it now....money.

When all teams are following Beane's approach, the teams that are going to be able to get the players that fit the mold, either in the majors or draft picks, are going to get them because they can buy them or pay them the most money.

I found it very interesting. If true it comes back to what a number of folks on the board have been postulating at the start...the only way to win regardless of your approach, seems to be to spend money... lots of money.

Lip


You're right but I believe that baseball's old boys club is less likely to change at a rapid pace than most sports would. The same menatality that prevented Negro league players into MLB prevails when it comes to anything new.

PLEASE I'M NOT LABELING ANYONE RACIST OR DOWNPLAYING THE IMPORTANCE OR EQUALITY OR SHORTCHANGING THE DIVISVE NATURE OF RACE. I'm just trying to say there's a perochialism involved in baseball clubs. I don't believe most clubs will move to the Sabermetic approach anytime soon because they fear change. That's why it's so important to get a head start now and leave the majority of other teams in the dust and create a big lead.

joecrede
11-26-2003, 12:56 PM
In today's baseball economics a $58M payroll is enough to compete for a World Series. Williams horribly misread the market with the contracts he gave Konerko and Koch.

The Sox payroll means they must stay flexible with as few long-term contracts as possible.

We wouldn't be in this situation if Williams didn't decide that Konerko and Koch would be bargains @ $14M this season.

DannyCaterFan
11-26-2003, 01:47 PM
LipMan, You are so right on with your comments....

Dadawg_77
11-26-2003, 02:37 PM
Lip, Beane strategy is based upon finding where the market is inefficient. If the market becomes efficient in opb then you need need to find another area of inefficiency.

Man Soo Lee
11-26-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Beane strategy is based upon finding where the market is inefficient. If the market becomes efficient in opb then you need need to find another area of inefficiency.

But isn't that only effective because OBP is the best indicator for offensive success? If OBP and slugging are both highly valued, where do you find inefficiency? Sacrifice bunts and stolen bases?

gosox41
11-26-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A few comments:

First Hullett fan...you are correct as I've stated before this team is on life support now, if the Cubs get to the series (they don't even have to win it) back up the trucks.

Hondo...that's a very interesting well thought out post. Obviously you subscribe to the statistical approach to baseball.

I have a question though...what happens when the statistical followers lose their edge?

Here's what I mean. My friend who is the sports editor of the Idaho State Journal is a monster baseball fan (he's from Minnesota) and a huge Billy Beane fan. He mentioned this last week to me. He said already the Red Sox and Blue Jays are copying Beane and the A's. He thinks in a few years maybe three or four more teams are going to follow this model. Then another couple teams will pick up on it in five years time.

Soon the majority of teams in baseball are going to be looking for players who walk a lot and have a high on base percentage. He asked then what will determine success?

Answer....exactly what determines it now....money.

When all teams are following Beane's approach, the teams that are going to be able to get the players that fit the mold, either in the majors or draft picks, are going to get them because they can buy them or pay them the most money.

I found it very interesting. If true it comes back to what a number of folks on the board have been postulating at the start...the only way to win regardless of your approach, seems to be to spend money... lots of money.

Lip

Things always move in cycles. When teams follow the full Billy Beane plpan of drafting college players with high OBP's early in the draft it will make get to the point where scales tip and smart teams will be able to snag good pitching and good HS hitters.

Bob