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Meixner007
11-25-2003, 05:06 PM
...to Marlins for D. Lee and PTBNL

jabrch
11-25-2003, 05:10 PM
I haven't seen that yet.

I hear Baltimore has the inside track at Lee - pending being able to sign him to an extension.

Mammoo
11-25-2003, 05:14 PM
WOW...Jim Hendry not afraid to deal. I thought Lee was going to arbitration? Has he signed a deal with the Cubs?

Meixner007
11-25-2003, 05:14 PM
Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-031125cubstrade,1,3750722.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

Here's the link. Good pickup for the cubs even though it makes me sick to say so. Adios Eric Karros.

jabrch
11-25-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
WOW...Jim Hendry not afraid to deal. I thought Lee was going to arbitration? Has he signed a deal with the Cubs?


He couldn't work out a deal with Baltimore. I wonder if the Cubs worked something out?

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 05:18 PM
damn.

siugrad25
11-25-2003, 05:25 PM
This was a great pick up for the Scrubs IMO. The get a solid defensive first baseman with some pop in his bat and really bolster that line up.

I'd be curious how this trade came to be considering all we've been hearing is catcher and closer and pipe dreams of A-Rod. But give them credit, they're going forward and the Sox are stuck in neutral and slowly sinking.

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 05:27 PM
They were supposedly trying to get Sexson... since apparently Sexson is going elsewhere - they get Lee.

The Cubs can move forward a little more easily with a payroll about 40-50% bigger than the Sox and counting.

Apples and oranges my brother.

Meixner007
11-25-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by wsgdf
They were supposedly trying to get Sexson... since apparently Sexson is going elsewhere - they get Lee.


Listening to the Dan Patrick show yesterday on ESPN Radio apparently Sexon is apart of the Schilling deal to Boston.

Schilling==>Boston
Fossum and a back up catcher and some prospects ==> Brewers
Sexon ==>Arizona

34 Inch Stick
11-25-2003, 05:37 PM
That Cub can't miss farm system is starting to fall a little bit short of expectations.

hold2dibber
11-25-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
Listening to the Dan Patrick show yesterday on ESPN Radio apparently Sexon is apart of the Schilling deal to Boston.

Schilling==>Boston
Fossum and a back up catcher and some prospects ==> Brewers
Sexon ==>Arizona

Reports I've heard late in the day yesterday and today say that the Brewers part of the deal fell apart, and the proposed trade now is just between Boston and Arizona. So Sexson is still on the market. My guess is he ends up in Anaheim, San Francisco or Baltimore.

oheeoh...magglio
11-25-2003, 05:42 PM
Just a hunch, but based on the 2 big names involved, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cubs deal either Cruz or Wellemeyer to the Marlins as the PTBNL the marlins are due to receive.

This reeks of a deal that Dusty wanted to make. Getting another veteran and "only" giving up a young 1st baseman and a prospect. If Dusty has anything to do with it, the Cubs will drain out their system with no remorse.

ondafarm
11-25-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
...to Marlins for D. Lee and PTBNL

Trib says its the other way. Choi and PTBNL for Lee.

kittle42
11-25-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
Listening to the Dan Patrick show yesterday on ESPN Radio apparently Sexon is apart of the Schilling deal to Boston.

Schilling==>Boston
Fossum and a back up catcher and some prospects ==> Brewers
Sexon ==>Arizona

Sexon is even better than Sexson, apparently!

oheeoh...magglio
11-25-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Trib says its the other way. Choi and PTBNL for Lee.

That is correct. Marlins are getting the PTBNL, not the Cubs.

bestkosher
11-25-2003, 05:46 PM
this will puthte cubs in the lead big time with media coverage again tomorrow, but will KW do to upstage the attention, maybe a big deal, how about it cheeses

Meixner007
11-25-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
Sexon is even better than Sexson, apparently!

You better believe he is. Nobody really talks about him but he's much better than that other guy.

As for the PTBNL, sorry my dyslexia was kicking in.

SoxxoS
11-25-2003, 05:47 PM
Great move for the Cubs. I was reading a scouts take on Choi, and apparently his swing is way too long, and he can't get around on the inside pitch.

That team is going to strikeout a ton, though.

miker
11-25-2003, 06:00 PM
Yeah, this steals the thunder from our Kelly Dransfeldt signing...

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 06:03 PM
Lee's only 27 years old or so. That's still pretty young. If you're going to 'drain' your system, you might as well do it by replacing them with proven guys who are already proven.

daveeym
11-25-2003, 06:05 PM
The trib has it as a minor league player to be named later so i doubt Cruz would be one of them.

This is a huge move for the flubs.

I also don't agree with the drain on their system call either. Lee is 28 if they keep him around he's got plenty of years left.

He's also one of those types that ozzie likes. Wish we could dump 3 of our albatrosses at first and make a move like this.

Vsahajpal
11-25-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
Just a hunch, but based on the 2 big names involved, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cubs deal either Cruz or Wellemeyer to the Marlins as the PTBNL the marlins are due to receive.

This reeks of a deal that Dusty wanted to make. Getting another veteran and "only" giving up a young 1st baseman and a prospect. If Dusty has anything to do with it, the Cubs will drain out their system with no remorse.

The prospect will be marginal, this was a Marlins salary dump.

Lee may be a veteran, but he's only 28. Ramirez may also be a veteran, but he's a month younger than Bobby Hill. Considering the depth of the Cubs system, I don't believe it will drain out any time soon. However, if they use it to get young productive players, I'm not sure I'd care.

joecrede
11-25-2003, 06:07 PM
Lee's a good player. I'd rather have Choi and the $12M-$18M difference in salaries over the next three years though.

Foulke You
11-25-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by miker
Yeah, this steals the thunder from our Kelly Dransfeldt signing...

LOL! The Kelly Dransfeldt signing is so big for this organization and such an impact move that I am sure it will be talked about for weeks to come.

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 06:12 PM
I'd rather have Choi and the $12M-$18M difference in salaries over the next three years though.

That's because you're a Sox fan. We have to think that way.

The Cubs can put up a $100+ mil payroll. They've already proven they can win now with their pitching. They have to go for it.

No reason to settle for a developing Choi when you can get one of the top 1B in the league right now.

munchman33
11-25-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by wsgdf
No reason to settle for a developing Choi when you can get one of the top 1B in the league right now.

As if...The guy hit .270. And remember how bad he choked for most of the playoffs!

Daver
11-25-2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by wsgdf
That's because you're a Sox fan. We have to think that way.

The Cubs can put up a $100+ mil payroll. They've already proven they can win now with their pitching. They have to go for it.

No reason to settle for a developing Choi when you can get one of the top 1B in the league right now.

By that argument you are proving the Cubs front office to be fools,because they could have signed Jim Thome for a hometown discount last winter,and chose to stick with Choi instead.

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 06:37 PM
As if...The guy hit .270. And remember how bad he choked for most of the playoffs!

Come on now... gold glover on defense, 30 hrs, 20 sbs, .380 obp and playing in a pretty extreme pitchers park.

I think I would be able to live with that .270 average.

My list of 1B I'd rather have -

Helton (the best)
Delgado
Thome
Sexson
Bagwell
Giambi

I have to stop right there because there aren't any more.

So... 30 1B playing and there are probably 6 that you could argue are better.

gosox41
11-25-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Meixner007
...to Marlins for D. Lee and PTBNL

I said it when the Cubs were eliminated and I'll say it again evn though it kills me to do so; the Cubs are a cinch to go to the playoffs next season AS LONG AS Wood, Prior, and Zambrano stay healthy. Sure they have holes. But they also have a ton of money to spend to fill them up. This trade is just one such example of the start of the pain us Sox fans will be feeling next season. It'll probably get worse too.

Bob

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 06:40 PM
By that argument you are proving the Cubs front office to be fools,because they could have signed Jim Thome for a hometown discount last winter,and chose to stick with Choi instead

I never said they're not fools in general. All I'm saying is this move makes a ton of sense for them - where it might not if the Sox were the ones with the option of trading Choi for Lee.

The Cubs can affords to trade their young talent for proven players and their contracts - not only can they - but right now, in the position they're in with their pitching staff, they should.

DrCrawdad
11-25-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
The prospect will be marginal, this was a Marlins salary dump.

Lee may be a veteran, but he's only 28. Ramirez may also be a veteran, but he's a month younger than Bobby Hill. Considering the depth of the Cubs system, I don't believe it will drain out any time soon. However, if they use it to get young productive players, I'm not sure I'd care.

What were your thoughts on Hill and Choi before they were traded by the Cubbies? Did you have Choi pegged as a future Cubbie star and untradable player?

I remember many, many Cubbie fans going on and on about how the Cubbies had developed all these guys who were going to be stars for decades with the Cubbies, Choi and Hill being two of the main names mentioned.

Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 07:00 PM
Another brilliant move by the Cubs....

Why? Because they are willing to take on payroll!

Here's another example of how a large payroll doesn't guarantee you'll win but it sure as hell increases your chances to...

Meanwhile what is that South Side team doing....oh right, they're being creative .

and what was that about the Marlins not breaking that team up?

LOL!

The Cubs have it right, trade "possibility" for "real production."

Lip

Soxfest
11-25-2003, 07:04 PM
I am shocked Choi is already history on north side.

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 07:18 PM
Thank you Lip... that's exactly (well not exactly) what I was trying to say.

This is the kind of move the Cubs can and should make.

Also (here's where I disagreew with you Lip) the kind of move the Sox just can't and shouldn't (see Wells/Fogg for Ritchie).

KW will NEVER have the benefit of working with the payroll Jim Hendry does, so he's in a MUCH more difficult situation and does have to be creative.

Corkinator
11-25-2003, 08:03 PM
This is too depressing. I live in tampa, maybe I should start pulling for the Devil Rays. And to think, I just bought that "Choke" t-shirt.

Vsahajpal
11-25-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
What were your thoughts on Hill and Choi before they were traded by the Cubbies? Did you have Choi pegged as a future Cubbie star and untradable player?

I remember many, many Cubbie fans going on and on about how the Cubbies had developed all these guys who were going to be stars for decades with the Cubbies, Choi and Hill being two of the main names mentioned.

I thought, and still do, that Choi would be a terrific 1B. He has some work to do, but it's not all difficult to envision him becoming a .300/35/100+ guy with 80-100 walks thrown in, and a pretty good glove. When, I don't know, but definitely not in 2004, probably not in 2005.

Hill, I thought he'd be an all-star after his stint in the Northern League, and then with the Cubs double-A affiliate. A year later, I was less hopeful, and then this past year after losing the job to Grudzielanek, I had my doubts.

Acquiring Ramirez (25) and Lee (28)....I like the moves. Lee is everything you hope Choi becomes, a gold glove defender who walks a lot, and hits for power; the only downside is that Lee bats right-handed in a lineup dominated by hitters that bat from the right side.

Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 08:41 PM
WSDGF:

With respect the Sox don't need a bunch of .500 pitchers and that's all Wells and Fogg are and will ever be.

The Sox have had plenty of those the past few years, Garland and Wright come to mind. They need pitchers who'll go 14-7, 14-9, 15-10. (You know like Kenny Rogers...)


For years the Sox farm system has been all hype with very little results from their pitchers, certainly nothing like Oakland and Houston, for example.

There is no reason to think Wells and Fogg would be any different then Garland and Wright.

I have no trouble with trading "potential" for proven talent. You will get burned once in a while but I'd rather have a good chance for the playoffs / Series with talent today, then "hoping" the Sox will get lucky with kids in x years.

I've heard that song and dance before.

Lip

Dadawg_77
11-25-2003, 08:56 PM
I think is a bad move by the Cubs but not a horrible one. Choi has the upside to become a better player then Lee and Lee is at his peak now.

flo-B-flo
11-25-2003, 10:08 PM
me thinks .... I hate when people write that......That the trade for Lee could prove to be a great one. He's a young, productive, and a clutch hitter as evidenced in the NLCS. The schrubs are going for the jugular. They have the scalper money. A least they go for it. While JR's emasculated GM is forced to sit on his !@%& and 'create'.

Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 10:09 PM
Folks:

My question is this...If the Cubs make it to a World Series in the next few years, do you think Cub fans will give one iota if ten years from now they are dead last and Choi and Hill are All Stars?

The point is that the moves they made got them there in the first place.

Tomorrow isn't promised to anyone or any team.

Sox fans would feel the same way if the reverse happened to them...if they traded away kids and they all turned out to be All Stars and Hall Of Famers, we wouldn't give a damn as long as the moves put the Sox in the series in the next few seasons.

Personally they way the Cubs have been showing a genuine desire to actually try to win by acquiring productive veterans by the boatload, regardless of cost, I ENVY THEM.

What have the Sox done but bitch about payroll, the fans and the media.

Lip

DrCrawdad
11-25-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

My question is this...If the Cubs make it to a World Series in the next few years, do you think Cub fans will give one iota if ten years from now they are dead last and Choi and Hill are All Stars?

The point is that the moves they made got them there in the first place.

Tomorrow isn't promised to anyone or any team.

Sox fans would feel the same way if the reverse happened to them...if they traded away kids and they all turned out to be All Stars and Hall Of Famers, we wouldn't give a damn as long as the moves put the Sox in the series in the next few seasons.

Personally they way the Cubs have been showing a genuine desire to actually try to win by acquiring productive veterans by the boatload, regardless of cost, I ENVY THEM.

What have the Sox done but bitch about payroll, the fans and the media.

Lip

Lip, forgive me if I'm wrong but I think you'd bitch-n-moan if the Sox made a trade similar to the one the Cubs made today.

Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 10:27 PM
Dr.

I don't follow you. This was a great deal for the Cubs...why can't the Sox EVER raid the dung teams and get all their good players?

Lip

joecrede
11-25-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

My question is this...If the Cubs make it to a World Series in the next few years, do you think Cub fans will give one iota if ten years from now they are dead last and Choi and Hill are All Stars?


What about deals like the one for Robbie Alomar? He contributed very little, nothing in September, yet at the time that deal was hailed by many because the White Sox were "going for it."

First base was probably fifth or sixth on the list of Cubs needs. Unless they spend the kind of money they spent on Lee to fill those other holes this trade wasn't necessary.

THE_HOOTER
11-25-2003, 10:28 PM
Lip,

I have agree with you--This is one hell of an agressive move towards going for it.

The White Sox ownership apparantly does not have the resources, or money in other words, to bring back the necessary guys to compete for a championship.

If the White Sox brought back everyone from last year, and added a fifth starter, they would be big time contenders.

if ownership has the opportunity do that, and doesnt----well then where the hell are you as a franchise?

I'll tell you where--you are in that hope, lucky, if the stars align correctly mode.


Reinsdorf should sell if he cannot maintain a competative team--and he is proving he cannot.

Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 10:38 PM
Joe Crede:


The difference is that the Sox took Alomar ONLY after the Mets said they'd pay the bulk of his salary...

The Cubs are willing to acquire Lee EVEN THOUGH he's going to get a substancial raise in arbitration.

That's "going for it."

I liked the Alomar deal but why haven't the Sox "re-signed" him if they really want to win. Why haven't they tried to get Castillo, Vina or any other second baseman then?

If you think the Sox can win with garbage like Willie "automatic out" Harris or Aaron Miles at 2nd base you're completely dilusional. But then I get the sense that you also think Uncle Jerry really is poor so who knows, maybe you are.

Lip

dugwood31
11-25-2003, 10:44 PM
Kip Wells has had below 4.00 ERA's the last 2 years. In fact, his number improved dramatically as soon as he graduated from the Nardi Contreras school of nibbling. And the Pirates are bad: last year he won 10 games with a 3.28 ERA.

dugwood31
11-25-2003, 10:46 PM
I meant to quote Lipman, who said that Wells and Fogg are no better than .500 pitchers.

joecrede
11-25-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Joe Crede:


The difference is that the Sox took Alomar ONLY after the Mets said they'd pay the bulk of his salary...

The Cubs are willing to acquire Lee EVEN THOUGH he's going to get a substancial raise in arbitration.

That's "going for it."

I liked the Alomar deal but why haven't the Sox "re-signed" him if they really want to win. Why haven't they tried to get Castillo, Vina or any other second baseman then?

If you think the Sox can win with garbage like Willie "automatic out" Harris or Aaron Miles at 2nd base you're completely dilusional. But then I get the sense that you also think Uncle Jerry really is poor so who knows, maybe you are.

Lip

So, your thing is it's okay to make questionable moves if you are adding payroll?

Alomar is finished. He's better than Harris or Miles, but I still don't want him back.

Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 10:54 PM
Dugwood:

Thanks for that insightful rejoinder...when was the last time Wells or Fogg won 20 games, or made the All Star Team?

What was their won lost record the past two years, even with that great ERA?

Wells had 2 1/2 years to show something with the Sox. He did NOTHING. Dave Campbell of ESPN picked him as AL Rookie Of The Year, that's how much he thought he was going to be good.

Remember Wells was part of the 2000 Sox a team that won 95 games...why couldn't he win that year Dugger? Please give me the statistical mumbo jumbo showing how Wells really was good that year but he just didn't have any luck.

How long are the fans supposed to wait? four years? five years? ten years?

Give me somebody who has proved himself in MLB right now, "potential" hasn't won squat. (of course neither have the Sox despite ten years of 'can't miss kids' hype)

Lip

duke of dorwood
11-25-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Another brilliant move by the Cubs....

Why? Because they are willing to take on payroll!

Here's another example of how a large payroll doesn't guarantee you'll win but it sure as hell increases your chances to...

Meanwhile what is that South Side team doing....oh right, they're being creative .

and what was that about the Marlins not breaking that team up?

LOL!


The Cubs have it right, trade "possibility" for "real production."

Lip

NO, THE SOUTH SIDE TEAM IS BUSY-RAISING PRICES.

duke of dorwood
11-25-2003, 11:11 PM
I HATE

:reinsy

doublem23
11-25-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dugwood:

Thanks for that insightful rejoinder...when was the last time Wells or Fogg won 20 games, or made the All Star Team?

What was their won lost record the past two years, even with that great ERA?

Wells had 2 1/2 years to show something with the Sox. He did NOTHING. Dave Campbell of ESPN picked him as AL Rookie Of The Year, that's how much he thought he was going to be good.

Remember Wells was part of the 2000 Sox a team that won 95 games...why couldn't he win that year Dugger? Please give me the statistical mumbo jumbo showing how Wells really was good that year but he just didn't have any luck.

How long are the fans supposed to wait? four years? five years? ten years?

Give me somebody who has proved himself in MLB right now, "potential" hasn't won squat. (of course neither have the Sox despite ten years of 'can't miss kids' hype)

Lip

Oh shut the **** up you big baby... For christ sake, sometimes those "can't miss veterans" backfire, too.... Remember how David Wells was to lead us in the postseason? What kind of year did he have in 2000? Look at how he imploded in '01. Take the blinders off you fool... Sometimes it's better to play the kids. I would rather have Kip Wells than probably all the pitchers the Sox have trotted out there the last decade with maybe a 2 or three exceptions.

MHOUSE
11-26-2003, 12:18 AM
GREAT deal for the Cubs IMO. You deal Choi for a better player at his position who's not much older. Albeit he makes a TON more money, but in reality they're trying to get to a world series and you need proven guys. 31 HR, 92 RBI is the way to do it and those numbers will go up at Wrigley Field. I doubt the PTBNL is much because this was a salary dump and Lee for Choi is a good deal for both sides as it is. Cruz and/or Wellemeyer will be headed elsewhere. Plus Cruz sucks so good riddance.

DrCrawdad
11-26-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dugwood:

Thanks for that insightful rejoinder...when was the last time Wells or Fogg won 20 games, or made the All Star Team?

What was their won lost record the past two years, even with that great ERA?

Wells had 2 1/2 years to show something with the Sox. He did NOTHING. Dave Campbell of ESPN picked him as AL Rookie Of The Year, that's how much he thought he was going to be good.

Remember Wells was part of the 2000 Sox a team that won 95 games...why couldn't he win that year Dugger? Please give me the statistical mumbo jumbo showing how Wells really was good that year but he just didn't have any luck.

How long are the fans supposed to wait? four years? five years? ten years?

Give me somebody who has proved himself in MLB right now, "potential" hasn't won squat. (of course neither have the Sox despite ten years of 'can't miss kids' hype)

Lip

Lip, if you think the Sox hype their prospects, then you must not follow the Cubbies. The Cubbies have hyped Bobbie Hill and Choi (and others) much more than anyone the Sox have hyped. The Cubune hypes their prospects in ways the Sox can only envy.

I see in the trades of Bobbie Hill and Choi that the Cubbies recognized that these two hotly hyped players were not likely to live up to the hype.

And don't forget that last year the Cubbies were saying that they didn't sign Thome because of they had "the first baseman for the next 20 years in Hee Sop Choi."

inta
11-26-2003, 12:45 AM
THE NIGHTMARE CONTINUES

now the cubs front office is acting like a real front office. while we get fric and frac trying to make sneaky deals.

dark days being a sox fan... dark days my friends.

Lip Man 1
11-26-2003, 12:49 AM
Dr.

The difference is the Cubs dealt them for quality players who were better, the Cubs hyped them to the point that other teams believed the BS and took them and got screwed in the process.

Why can't the Sox do that?

I think most people would agree the Sox think the world of their prospects... so much so that Jumbotron Ron Schueler refused to part with them.

Kenny Williams gets ripped for dealing all these top prospects but why is it that the owerwhelming number of them have turned out to be like Aaron Myette rather then even a mediocre player like Kip Wells?

It can't just be the pitching coach or the Sox organization since most of these kids can't do anything anyplace else either. That tells me they aren't that good to start with. Ditto for the Cubs but they get Derrick Lee and Arimas Ramirez for their garbage, who do the Sox get?

Perhaps the reason is because the Sox GM's aren't worth a damn. I don't know if that's totally true but I guess it has to be considered. (Unless you think like some here on the board that there is a "conspiracy" to get the Cubs into the post season.)

Lip

DrCrawdad
11-26-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Double:

Just pay attention to how many strike outs Sammy Sosa has...

The Cubbies will be whiffing at an Brewers-like rate next year.

DrCrawdad
11-26-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dr.

The difference is the Cubs dealt them for quality players who were better, the Cubs hyped them to the point that other teams believed the BS and took them and got screwed in the process.

Why can't the Sox do that?

I think most people would agree the Sox think the world of their prospects... so much so that Jumbotron Ron Schueler refused to part with them.

Kenny Williams gets ripped for dealing all these top prospects but why is it that the owerwhelming number of them have turned out to be like Aaron Myette rather then even a mediocre player like Kip Wells?

It can't just be the pitching coach or the Sox organization since most of these kids can't do anything anyplace else either. That tells me they aren't that good to start with. Ditto for the Cubs but they get Derrick Lee and Arimas Ramirez for their garbage, who do the Sox get?

Perhaps the reason is because the Sox GM's aren't worth a damn. I don't know if that's totally true but I guess it has to be considered. (Unless you think like some here on the board that there is a "conspiracy" to get the Cubs into the post season.)

Lip

Well in answer, and I hate to come to the defense of KW, but KW has dealt some of these Sox hyped prospects. I'll give you two off the top of my head Aaron Myette for Clayton and Guerrier for Marte & Yan. In the Myette/Clayton deal the Sox surely won that trade.

In the Sox dealing of Myette/Guerrier the Sox have got something in return, ecspecially in the case of Guerrier.

Anyone who points to Josh Fogg must not have followed in the second half of 02 and 03, because he hasn't been that sharp.

ma-gaga
11-26-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Double:
[edited for objectionable content]


Holy crap. its, its, its...

A LIPSTICK BITCH FEST!!! Where Lip takes on everyone. Wow. Man, this isn't highway robbery. They gave up a promising kid who was putting up numbers before he got hurt.

I mean, the Sox have "gone for it". Bartolo Colon is a legitimate 'contender' move. The best one I've seen in the AL Central in 3 years bar none. David Wells turned out badly, Clayton even worse. The Alomars is ... nothing special. KC tried this year to make some desperation moves to keep them in contention, but Brian Anderson was their highlight move. I mean, Jose Lima?!? That was a joke move that worked out. Loaiza was also a lucky move that turned out better than anyone here thought. But all that said, dealing for Colon was a great move. It cost money, but he gave you what he should have, 200+ innings with an ERA < 4.00.

Shannon Stewart this year was close, but that was more of a desperation move for a struggling team than a legitimate 'going for it by getting a player in his prime' damn the cost type of move that Bartolo was. Otherwise the Twins tried Jesse Orosco this year?!? Rick Reed was a decent pickup, but he didn't help prevent the 2001 collapse. Last year there wasn't any real drama in the division after July.

Bartolo Colon, best AL Central pickup in 3 years. Kenny Williams, super-genius.

Gumshoe
11-26-2003, 01:26 AM
Then why didn't the sox EVER make the playoffs in his tenure?

Shannon Stewart alone propelled the Twins to the AL Central Crown. Results, let's deal in them. KW is a loser until he proves otherwise.

Gumshoe

white sox bill
11-26-2003, 08:02 AM
Move over Carlos, your not the only Lee in town now..

bobj4400
11-26-2003, 10:25 AM
The Cubs hype second rate prospects to superstar levels, then dump them on teams that cant afford to pay their actual proven major league players. This is what happens when you have a superstation and a major newspaper to spread your Cubpoganda. Jim Hendry should be the NL Executive of the Year for the next decade with the way he has fleeced teams in the past 2 years.

Marlins twice.
Pirates twice.
Dodgers once.

Make me puke.

TDog
11-26-2003, 12:17 PM
Wow. This is getting ugly. At the risk of having my character questioned, I think the Cubs came up short here. It isn't like the Cubs went out and got Sexson, whose potential acquisition was looked upon by many Cubs fans as many 19th century Americans looked upon manifest destiny.

The Derek Lee the Cubs got is a player who will be getting a big raise because of the role he played on a World Series-winning team. One of the reasons the Marlins won the World Series was assembling hungry players like Lee in the right situation. His play in 2003 doesn't approach Konerko's play in 2000. There are plenty of first basemen in both leagues better than Derek Lee.

The Marlins got Choi, who may never live up to his hype, but who now finds himself in a position that Lee did, where he should be in the best position to get the most out of his talent. His team might not finish above .500, but he should have a chance to play. In a full season in Florida with a different manager, Choi could put up bigger numbers than Lee as early as 2004.

One of the problems with having a large payroll is that it can make general managers lazy, because taking on veteran salaries becomes easier. Lee is a player who will make more money through arbitration than he would have the opportunity to make through free agency. But if salary isn't the issue, it doesn't matter. It isn't like Thome is available.

Maybe Choi wouldn't be the best first baseman for the 2004 Cubs, but I don't think Lee will be either.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2003, 12:23 PM
Frankly I'm laughing my ass off that the Cubs have now dealt both Bobby Hill and Hee Soep Choi. There are literally thousands of little Flubbie fans with drawers filled with "savior" shirts that the Cubune hype machine sold, like that fat kid wearing the Kerry Wood shirt for Mark Prior's debut in 2002. Now they and their parents are revealed as the idiots the rest of us always knew them to be.

Does this make the Flubbies a better team? I really don't care. It's the Sox I'm worried about. They weren't on the giving or receiving end of this deal, were they?

DrCrawdad
11-26-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Frankly I'm laughing my ass off that the Cubs have now dealt both Bobby Hill and Hee Soep Choi. There are literally thousands of little Flubbie fans with drawers filled with "savior" shirts that the Cubune hype machine sold, like that fat kid wearing the Kerry Wood shirt for Mark Prior's debut in 2002. Now they and their parents are revealed as the idiots the rest of us always knew them to be.

Does this make the Flubbies a better team? I really don't care. It's the Sox I'm worried about. They weren't on the giving or receiving end of this deal, were they?

There were many Cubbie fans "chirping" that they had all these homegrown future all-stars - Bobbie Hill & Choi GONE! Kelton can't find a position that he can play. Luis Montanez (SS star of the future) not on the Cubbies 40-man roster, gone if another team wants him. Juan Cruz, the next Pedro, how your star has fallen.

For all the star players the Cubbie system was producing, next year there will likely be only one Cubbie produced starting position player, the hyper hyped Corey Patterson, that's IF he's healthy.

Rocky Soprano
11-26-2003, 12:58 PM
This is a good pick-up for the Flubs. IMO I think it makes them a little better.

Too bad their pitchers arms are probably going to fall off next year.

I also find it funny how all their coveted future superstars are all gone.

No matter what, they will always find a new way to choke.

Frank the Tank
11-26-2003, 12:58 PM
I don't think it is fair to dump on KW and the 2004 Sox just because the cubs made the lousy lee/choi deal. It is only Novemeber, give KW a chance. There is plenty of time left and many more bigger deals to be made. Moving on, does anyone really think the cubs are capable of making the playoffs 2 years in a row? Something will go wrong for the cubs next year, it always does. I don't care how good the players on a team are, the team will lose unless there is chemistry (sorry if I sound like the Hawk). Maybe Lee will be a negative influence. I really don't think this trade was that good of a deal for the cubs. Lee is already established, so if anything, he will get worse. Not to mention he added millions to the payroll. Jim Hendry has a much larger budget, but he has limits too. Furthermore, if the season started today, the cubs would only have 1 batter swinging from the left side of the plate (assuming Corey Patterson is healthy). Even further, I expect Choi to be a better player than Lee very soon. Next year I expect Choi to hit: .270 25 80. Even better in 2005. I predict this will be another infamous cubs trade. Right next to: Maddox, Brock, Palmeiro, etc.... X infinity

THE_HOOTER
11-26-2003, 01:01 PM
Why do you keep on harping about how the Cubs built up their prospects as saviors?

you mean we didnt do that with Kip Wells, Garland, Rauch, and borchard?

I don't get the stupid reaction to this trade.

And whoever said Lee is not a good 1st baseman in a previous post must be on drugs.

He is a gold glove, 28 year old 1st baseman who hit 28 hrs, and had 92 RBI last year.

He had big hits in the postseason as well.

If you had the money, who wouldnt make this trade?

jordan23ventura
11-26-2003, 01:16 PM
And how much higher would that be in the AL? Besides, even if we kept Wells and Fogg we would have Loaiza, Buerhle, Wells, Garland, Fogg as a rotation... that is still not enough to take you anywhere in the playoffs if you can get there, sorry. Unless, of course, Loazia and Buerhle and Garland all catch fire after throwing 200+innings in a season and the starting line-up can hit in the clutch. NOT LIKELY.

Hullett_Fan
11-26-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Why do you keep on harping about how the Cubs built up their prospects as saviors?

you mean we didnt do that with Kip Wells, Garland, Rauch, and borchard?

I don't get the stupid reaction to this trade.

And whoever said Lee is not a good 1st baseman in a previous post must be on drugs.

He is a gold glove, 28 year old 1st baseman who hit 28 hrs, and had 92 RBI last year.

He had big hits in the postseason as well.

If you had the money, who wouldnt make this trade?

Thank you Hooter! It was a great trade for the Cubs. We should have traded OUR over-hyped prospect with a looping swing (Joe Borchard) for Lee. Oh well...

jordan23ventura
11-26-2003, 01:29 PM
Why is it stupid to think the Cubs will make the postseason again? If the Sox had the rotation of Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Clement + solid No. 5 like Kenny Rogers or anyone other than Estes for that matter, wouldn't you think the Sox would make the post season, even in a more competitive division?

Furthermore, they have lots of power in that line-up already with Patterson, Lee, Ramirez. Sosa and Alou could both go down and if they re-signed Lofton like I think that they will and a decent OF off the bench they could still make it. They don't even need a catcher with power because either Miller or Bako are good enough at handling the pitchers. All the holes they have now are in the bullpen and No. 5 slot, and even if they don't sign a No. 5 pitcher, being in the national league, Juan Cruz has a better chance of excelling in the No. 5 slot than any of our guys do given their recent struggles, injuries, or lack of experience.

Not to say the Sox can't be competitive, but the Cubs are actually spending money and trying to win. It's not Kenny's fault, we should have at least had the division last year. We know who it is that is in the front office that doesn't care, and it's not KW.

By the way... most of beef in our line-up last year came from the right side of the plate and that's not why we were swept by an average team.

jordan23ventura
11-26-2003, 01:33 PM
On an unrelated note, I wonder if JR even hands out candy on Halloween. I doubt it, but if he does its probably just a couple Tootsie Rolls (the small ones).

maurice
11-26-2003, 03:01 PM
Predictions:
- cubs spend twice as much as the Sox in 2004
- cubs draw twice as many fans as the Sox in 2004
- JR and the media blame Sox fans for not showing up to see a .500 team and a shiny new roof

PaleHoseGeorge
11-26-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Predictions:
- cubs spend twice as much as the Sox in 2004
- cubs draw twice as many fans as the Sox in 2004
- JR and the media blame Sox fans for not showing up to see a .500 team and a shiny new roof

Maurice, I would laugh more if it didn't hurt so much.

:)

pappy
11-26-2003, 03:28 PM
the end is near..........scrubs look soild

RKMeibalane
11-26-2003, 04:30 PM
Frankly, I'm a little surprised the Cubs made this move. Hee Soep Choi is Darren Baker's favorite player.

Lip Man 1
11-26-2003, 06:12 PM
RK:

Obviously Choi wasn't "Dusty" Baker's favorite player!

and the tribune in the story on the lee trade said the Cubs budget for 2004 will be around 85 million. That's about 25-27 million more then the Sox will field.

That's a pretty big gap.

Lip

dickallen15
11-26-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
RK:

Obviously Choi wasn't "Dusty" Baker's favorite player!

and the tribune in the story on the lee trade said the Cubs budget for 2004 will be around 85 million. That's about 25-27 million more then the Sox will field.

That's a pretty big gap.

Lip

But the Cubs are a lock to draw 2.8 million. If the Sox draw 2 million its a great year. 800,000 x $30 ticket price+concessions is far greater than 27 million

Jjav829
11-26-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Why do you keep on harping about how the Cubs built up their prospects as saviors?

you mean we didnt do that with Kip Wells, Garland, Rauch, and borchard?

I don't get the stupid reaction to this trade.

And whoever said Lee is not a good 1st baseman in a previous post must be on drugs.

He is a gold glove, 28 year old 1st baseman who hit 28 hrs, and had 92 RBI last year.

He had big hits in the postseason as well.

If you had the money, who wouldnt make this trade?

You couldn't be more dead on Hooter. There is another franchise out there who hypes up their prospects to high levels and then trades them away. They are called the New York Yankees and last I checked, they were a pretty good team. That's what prospects are for big market teams. They are chips you use to acquire better players. For small market teams, they are the players you base your franchise around. This was a big market move by the Cubs. They decided that rather than stick with a young 1B who could develop into a good player, they would trade him for a older 1B who is a good 1B. I would all but guarantee you that there is not a single Sox fan on this board who if money was not an issue, wouldn't want to do a deal in the mold of Joe Crede for Eric Chavez (or something similar to the Choi for D Lee deal). Sure Joe Crede could develop into a good 3B, but if money wasn't an issue, who wouldn't want someone who is a good, established 3B such as Chavez instead?

It was a good move by the Cubs. Even if Choi one day becomes a good first baseman, they have acquired someone who is already a damn good first baseman.

Jjav829
11-26-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I don't think it is fair to dump on KW and the 2004 Sox just because the cubs made the lousy lee/choi deal. It is only Novemeber, give KW a chance. There is plenty of time left and many more bigger deals to be made. Moving on, does anyone really think the cubs are capable of making the playoffs 2 years in a row? Something will go wrong for the cubs next year, it always does. I don't care how good the players on a team are, the team will lose unless there is chemistry (sorry if I sound like the Hawk). Maybe Lee will be a negative influence. I really don't think this trade was that good of a deal for the cubs. Lee is already established, so if anything, he will get worse. Not to mention he added millions to the payroll. Jim Hendry has a much larger budget, but he has limits too. Furthermore, if the season started today, the cubs would only have 1 batter swinging from the left side of the plate (assuming Corey Patterson is healthy). Even further, I expect Choi to be a better player than Lee very soon. Next year I expect Choi to hit: .270 25 80. Even better in 2005. I predict this will be another infamous cubs trade. Right next to: Maddox, Brock, Palmeiro, etc.... X infinity

No offense, but are you serious with that statement I put in italics? That is horrible logic! Yes, Arod is already established so if anything he will get worse. So will Barry Zito, etc. All established players? So you would rather have a young player who could possibly get better than a good player who has already shown what he can do? We're not talking about a big age difference either. Lee is 28 and established. Choi is 24. It's not like Lee is 35 and past the peak of his career. Lee is improving each year posting career highs in OPS, SLG, OBP, SB, SBI, and HR each year. He is pretty reliable health wise. He plays great defense and by all accounts is a very good clubhouse guy. Sorry, but I don't see this coming near the level of Maddux, Brock, Palmeiro.

kermittheefrog
11-26-2003, 10:18 PM
I don't see what the big deal about Lee is. He's basically Konerko with a better glove and a good first half of 2003. I think Choi could easily come close to Lee's performance in 2004 if the Marlins just let him play. This may even free up enough money for the Marlins to keep Mike Lowell. Too bad we couldn't get Choi for PK.

BTW props to doublem for accurately tearing Lip to shreds.

JRIG
11-26-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I don't see what the big deal about Lee is. He's basically Konerko with a better glove and a good first half of 2003. I think Choi could easily come close to Lee's performance in 2004 if the Marlins just let him play. This may even free up enough money for the Marlins to keep Mike Lowell. Too bad we couldn't get Choi for PK.

BTW props to doublem for accurately tearing Lip to shreds.

The biggest problem for the Cubs is they could have used the money they'll spend on Lee to fix other holes in the lineup and bullpen. Choi and Lee's production won't be that far apart.

DrCrawdad
11-26-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
The biggest problem for the Cubs is they could have used the money they'll spend on Lee to fix other holes in the lineup and bullpen. Choi and Lee's production won't be that far apart.

What, are you saying that the acquistion of Lee doesn't guarantee that the Cubbies will win the World Series in '04? You negative, cynical Sox fan!

http://www.thediamondangle.com/archive/aug02/cubs/mcgriff.jpg
"I was going to lead the Cubbies to the World Series too as part of the most feared 3-4-5 ever in baseball."

Frank the Tank
11-27-2003, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
No offense, but are you serious with that statement I put in italics? That is horrible logic! Yes, Arod is already established so if anything he will get worse. So will Barry Zito, etc. All established players? So you would rather have a young player who could possibly get better than a good player who has already shown what he can do? We're not talking about a big age difference either. Lee is 28 and established. Choi is 24. It's not like Lee is 35 and past the peak of his career. Lee is improving each year posting career highs in OPS, SLG, OBP, SB, SBI, and HR each year. He is pretty reliable health wise. He plays great defense and by all accounts is a very good clubhouse guy. Sorry, but I don't see this coming near the level of Maddux, Brock, Palmeiro.

Yes, I am serious. You are taking my statement way out of context. Everyone knows what to expect out of Lee. He is a better-than-average player, not a superstar. I don't know how you can compare Lee to the likes of Arod. Much like Carlos Lee, I think this Lee had a career year last year. I don't expect him to get any better. I think his numbers will drop. My reasoning might not be logical, but it is my opinion. Choi might become a star. Or he might become another Greg Norton. Nobody knows. Don't forget that every superstar was once an unproven young player. That is what makes young talent valuable and exciting. Sorry if I sound like I'm adding more hype to an already over-advertised player, but I really feel Choi could easily be a .280 25 90 hitter. In other words, I don't think the cubs made that big of an improvement with this trade. Especially since they traded away an already scarce left-handed at bat leaving Corey Patterson as the only lefty in the lineup. IMHO, Sometimes it is better to take a chance with a youngster than to sign a better than average player for big money.

Palehose13
11-28-2003, 07:09 PM
My initial reaction was that this was a great trade, but then I thought about the cubs (yes, it did hurt) and realized that this isn't the move to put them in the series.

What, are you saying that the acquistion of Lee doesn't guarantee that the Cubbies will win the World Series in '04? You negative, cynical Sox fan!

Don't get me wrong, it is a great trade. BUT...

Originally posted by JRIG
The biggest problem for the Cubs is they could have used the money they'll spend on Lee to fix other holes in the lineup and bullpen. Choi and Lee's production won't be that far apart.

The cubs had decent production from first base without Choi in Karros and "Cheeseburger" Simon. They definitely have other holes to fill (catcher, bullpen, are they serious about Ramirez at 3b???) I think 1st base should have been one of their last worries.