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gosox41
11-25-2003, 07:14 AM
I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned earlier (or I might have missed it) but according to ESPN.com the Giants are looking to trade Ray Durham.

Now last I checked the Sox don't have a guy to play 2B that's worthy of being a major leaguer. And while it's likely the Sox can't afford Durham, he is my realistic second choice to play 2B for the Sox right behind Luis Castillo.

Before I hear people rip on Durham's inability to go to his right (like he's the only second baseman with a weakness) I'd like to point out that our current line up stands as:

Harris 2b
Lee LF
Thomas DH
Ordonez RF
Konerko 1B
Valentin SS
Crede 3B
Rowand CF
Olivo C

I don't care if the Sox sign Colon and Millwood, this team won't win. There are 3 good/great hitters in the above line up. The rest of these guys all had below average OBP's. How many of them had OBP's below .300 last season? Our leadoff hitter did.

I know the Sox are maxed out on payroll. And I know the odds of getting Durham are close to zero, but does that current line up scare anybody???

Looks like the makings of a third place team to me.

Bob

dougs78
11-25-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by gosox41

I don't care if the Sox sign Colon and Millwood, this team won't win. There are 3 good/great hitters in the above line up. The rest of these guys all had below average OBP's. How many of them had OBP's below .300 last season? Our leadoff hitter did.

Bob


I'd certainly not mind seeing Durham back in black if we can get him for what we got for him the first time (yeesh). Not sure what he makes exactly, but it seems like picking up any guys with contracts is stupid at this time, becuase the new contracts given free agents could be significantly lower without giving up anything.

But more to the point of this quote I included. Thats just not true. You're talking about a rotation of Colon, Millwood, Loaiza, Buehrle and Garland. Thats a pretty solid staff. I'd say we would win the division next year, even with a subpar offensive lineup.

bobj4400
11-25-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
I'd certainly not mind seeing Durham back in black if we can get him for what we got for him the first time (yeesh). Not sure what he makes exactly, but it seems like picking up any guys with contracts is stupid at this time, becuase the new contracts given free agents could be significantly lower without giving up anything.

But more to the point of this quote I included. Thats just not true. You're talking about a rotation of Colon, Millwood, Loaiza, Buehrle and Garland. Thats a pretty solid staff. I'd say we would win the division next year, even with a subpar offensive lineup.

Neither Millwood nor Colon will be pitching for the Sox next year. We will be lucky to get Ponson. Unless we get rid of two of the albatross contracts we have, FA's will not be coming here this off season. Picking up the Valentin option was a huge mistake unless they are planning to trade him. $5 mm in this financial climate is way overpriced...

ewokpelts
11-25-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
Neither Millwood nor Colon will be pitching for the Sox next year. We will be lucky to get Ponson. Unless we get rid of two of the albatross contracts we have, FA's will not be coming here this off season. Picking up the Valentin option was a huge mistake unless they are planning to trade him. $5 mm in this financial climate is way overpriced...

And why did we get rid of the ray-ray? So we can pay the DP king Konerko? and give an overpriced option toa guy that sed he'll work cheep? Yep...looks like Kenny's back to Prof. Chaos
Gene

FanOf14
11-25-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by ewokpelts
And why did we get rid of the ray-ray? So we can pay the DP king Konerko? and give an overpriced option toa guy that sed he'll work cheep? Yep...looks like Kenny's back to Prof. Chaos
Gene

From what I remember, we got rid of Ray-ray because his asking price was way too high (which most here agreed with, what to do with him was another question).

That was something I didn't understand, the contract PK received. I didn't like it then especially because he repeatedly said that he didn't want much more than he had. Wait, it's not like much of what this management does makes sense to me anyways.

JaylisJP
11-25-2003, 10:30 AM
you mentioned the ineptness of the lineup...something tells me Ray Durham at 2B won't add 1 win to our season...and would surely find a way to screw us up even more. Mark my words, the sox won't even be worth watching next year. Loaiza will win 12 games, Buerhle the same, Maggs and Carlos will both be gone, and I will cease to be a Sox fan until they're good again. For a team that's so concerned about payroll and not the fans, i have no problems not financially supporting them until they give me something to cheer for. Screw it. Sox are garbage.

boog_alou
11-25-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
From what I remember, we got rid of Ray-ray because his asking price was way too high (which most here agreed with, what to do with him was another question).

His asking price was too high, and now his current price is too high. This is Durham's contract:

2004 - $6 million
2005 - $6.5 million
2006 - $7 million (player option)

That is too much for this year and too much of a long-term commitment.

soxnut
11-25-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by JaylisJP
you mentioned the ineptness of the lineup...something tells me Ray Durham at 2B won't add 1 win to our season...and would surely find a way to screw us up even more. Mark my words, the sox won't even be worth watching next year. Loaiza will win 12 games, Buerhle the same, Maggs and Carlos will both be gone, and I will cease to be a Sox fan until they're good again. For a team that's so concerned about payroll and not the fans, i have no problems not financially supporting them until they give me something to cheer for. Screw it. Sox are garbage.


Don't let the wheels run you over when you jumpoff the bandwagon...good-bye

jordan23ventura
11-25-2003, 10:42 AM
while i'd love to see ray back, i think if we're going to drop valentin and sign an above average player for SS or 2B we should look at getting somebody who can lead off. it wouldn't make sense to get a leadoff outfielder with talk of Reed maybe coming up and filling that spot, however if a leadoff SS or 2B can be arranged and Reed blows everyone away in ST, we can maybe push Lee to No. 3, Thomas to No. 4. a guy like cameron would work out well in the 6 spot if we could dump konerko and maggs and sign everett for RF. if that happened there would definately be some speed in the lineup.

CubKilla
11-25-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
Don't let the wheels run you over when you jumpoff the bandwagon...good-bye

The Sox have a bandwagon? :?: I was under the impression that it was only us masochists that keep coming back for more screwing every season at the hands of JR and Co.

soxnut
11-25-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
The Sox have a bandwagon? :?: I was under the impression that it was only us masochists that keep coming back for more screwing every season at the hands of JR and Co.

It's still a bandwagon allright............ And if you cease to be a fan when they're not good, then, you're jumping off.

TaylorStSox
11-25-2003, 11:46 AM
If I'm the Sox GM, I'm no longer willing to sacrifice defense for offense. How many years is it going to take us to figure that out?

Lip Man 1
11-25-2003, 11:51 AM
Something to remember...Durham was one of four players to talk about Williams / Pettis and how the clubhouse situation was chaotic in 2002.

I don't think Kenny will be inviting him back to the South Side. Remember traditionally under Uncle Jerry this organization has been secretive, egotistic and vindictive.

Lip

MarkEdward
11-25-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
If I'm the Sox GM, I'm no longer willing to sacrifice defense for offense. How many years is it going to take us to figure that out?

Well, the 2003 White Sox were actually fourth in the AL in Defensive Efficiency while only eighth in runs scored.

I'd take Ray Durham's bat and less-than-stellar defense over Robbie Alomar's Gold Glove and 82 OPS+.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-25-2003, 12:32 PM
Would it be too obvious (and too painful) to note that the Sox organization is either undertalented or overpaying at several positions?

I have no idea how we get out of this mess but all of the alternatives seem pretty depressing.

:(:

hold2dibber
11-25-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
. Remember traditionally under Uncle Jerry this organization has been secretive, egotistic and vindictive.

Now there's a great idea for a team slogan: secretive, egotistic and vindictive! Somebody get Gallas on the horn!

ma-gaga
11-25-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, the 2003 White Sox were actually fourth in the AL in Defensive Efficiency while only eighth in runs scored.

I'd take Ray Durham's bat and less-than-stellar defense over Robbie Alomar's Gold Glove and 82 OPS+.

Yes, but the question I have is: whom would you give up for Durham? He is an asset as a second baseman that can hit. He's a liability because he makes >$5MM a year and has a hammy problem.

So what is a good trade for him? A reliever, an outfielder, a catcher?!?

No. The Giants don't need anymore catching. Maybe a reliever, that's not so bad of a deal. They'd probably ask for a good reliever though.

Not Billy Koch. But wouldn't that be a riot? Billy Koch pitching to AJ Pierzynski?? But it would only be better if Durham was still on that team. And Terrance Long.

but I'm digressing...

:)

dugwood31
11-25-2003, 01:25 PM
I'd trade Konerko for Durham, straight up. The Giants need a 1B too.

Frank the Tank
11-25-2003, 02:09 PM
I still don't understand the 2nd base situation. I am under the impression that Robbie could be resigned for 2 MM. I can't believe KW is so apprehensive about resigning him. I would rather have Robbie than Durham and he is much cheaper.

kempsted
11-25-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
If I'm the Sox GM, I'm no longer willing to sacrifice defense for offense. How many years is it going to take us to figure that out?
Hmmm. The New York Yankees were one of the worst defensive teams in baseball. Are you sure there is something to figure out here? You should always sacrifice defense (not pitching) for offense for most positions.

jabrch
11-25-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I still don't understand the 2nd base situation. I am under the impression that Robbie could be resigned for 2 MM. I can't believe KW is so apprehensive about resigning him. I would rather have Robbie than Durham and he is much cheaper.

Where did you hear this? Robbie is a FA. I can't see him signing for 2mm - but if he would, we should grab him.

TaylorStSox
11-25-2003, 04:50 PM
The Yankees haven't done so well since they adopted that philosophy either have they? Their best recent years, in the late 90's, fielded a defensive team with clutch hitting and solid pitching.

The Marlins sure didn't have too many offensive stars either. Same with the Diamondbacks and the Angels. Do you see a trend?


Our team has been built around offense for the last 5 years and they have stunk for a good percentage of it.

gosox41
11-25-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by ewokpelts
And why did we get rid of the ray-ray? So we can pay the DP king Konerko? and give an overpriced option toa guy that sed he'll work cheep? Yep...looks like Kenny's back to Prof. Chaos
Gene

But we also got Jon Adkins. Don't forget him.

Bob

MarkEdward
11-26-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox

Our team has been built around offense for the last 5 years and they have stunk for a good percentage of it.

As I said, last year, the Sox were fourth in defensive efficiency while only eighth in runs scored. In 2002, they were second in defensive efficiency while third in runs scored.

You're really underrating our defense.

doublem23
11-26-2003, 01:03 AM
Man, if you thought sparks would fly between Ozzie and Frank, just wait if we had Ozzie, Joey Cora, and Ray Durham. Sheesh, Three Stooges Y2K!