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HootieMcBoob
09-02-2001, 01:21 AM
He made 2 errors tonight (1 on the throw after fielding a bunt and 1 thru the legs).
And when he got thrown out at 3rd...it totally changed the momentum of the game. Cle scored 3 in the next inning.

You could see how much of a better team is (defensively anyway)than the sox from this game...cle made the big plays (visquel/thome) and we did not.

I know Manos had that big hit, but still, it was he who blew it for us this game.

Nellie_Fox
09-02-2001, 02:45 AM
Valentin is just killing me. I love his leadership, and there's no one on the club I'd rather see coming to bat in a clutch situation, especially left handed. But his defense is just abominable, and everyone knows you don't make the third out at third base.

BigKlu59
09-02-2001, 07:15 AM
Right on Nellie!Sometimes ya wonder where these guys learned the funda"mentals" of the game.As for Manos and his hands o'stone,he really keeps me in the Tums.The Sox cant afford to give teams 5 and 6 outs an inning.This has been one "Twilight Zone" kind of season.
BigKlu59

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 09:46 AM
I can't argue the point with anyone. Valentin's mental gaffe at third base was every bit as bad as Josh Paul's double-boner in Seattle last May. He costs us the game. I think he knew it too, or at least that's how I interpret those two errors he made. Manos has a hard time concentrating when the game isn't competitive.

Only two points I would make regarding Manos...

1. He's a regular playing out of position. He cost us a game in Boston last year and perhaps 2-3 others. There aren't too many regulars on any team that don't cost their team at least a few games every season. It's the law of averages.

2. His bat is one of the best on the team, and perhaps THE best when the game is on the line. That's why Valentin is a regular, even if Manuel can only find a place for him after Royce gets the shortstop position and the #8 slot.

Other than that, fire away. He's got it coming.

"E tu, Brutus!":manos

voodoochile
09-02-2001, 10:50 AM
There is NO stronger argument for dumping Clayton then to put Jose back where he belongs...

Eat the salary, Jerry... Dump Clayton...

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
There is NO stronger argument for dumping Clayton then to put Jose back where he belongs...

Eat the salary, Jerry... Dump Clayton...

Jose "belongs nowhere near the field with the sox. He needs to either become a DH or get the hell outta town.....

Tragg
09-02-2001, 11:17 AM
How about a compromise? Remove both of them from the field.

We can keep jose around for his bat - some dh, play in the field once a week.

oldcomiskey
09-02-2001, 11:34 AM
WHAT??!!! Youre crazy---How many times has Jose bailed our sorry asses out this year with his bat and his glove... How many times did Koneko get on base-- or Lee--or Canseco==sure,blame Manos for Konerko poppng up with runners on 2nd and 3rd when a single couldve gave us the lead--Blame Jose for Maggs letting a 2 strike fastball go right down the middle,,blame Jose for the season---yeah right

idseer
09-02-2001, 12:32 PM
i'm with bmr on this one. he may have bailed us out on a few games with his right hand but he's handed our ass over with his left!
the man is a positionless player. he's like thomas ... should have a bat in his hand and nothing else (plus some baserunning lessons would be a good idea).

he's not alone in letting the sox down no doubt, but he is a big part of it.

KingXerxes
09-02-2001, 12:33 PM
Nobody's blaming the entire year on Valentin, but his play last night begs a much bigger issue:

We go into next year (possibly) with Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin, Jose Canseco and Frank Thomas on the roster - These are four DH's (without mention of Leifer), none of whom are going to be happy playing part-time. It's easy to let Canseco go as he is clearly the most one-dimensional of all of the above, but there still have to be some pretty major offseason moves made with this team.

The fielding errors are one thing - they're going to happen to the best of players from time to time, but these brain cramps like last night's 5th inning are inexcusable.

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
We go into next year (possibly) with Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin, Jose Canseco and Frank Thomas on the roster - These are four DH's (without mention of Leifer), none of whom are going to be happy playing part-time.


Williams has already said that Canseco will not be on the team next year.

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by HootieMcBoob
He made 2 errors tonight (1 on the throw after fielding a bunt and 1 thru the legs).
And when he got thrown out at 3rd...it totally changed the momentum of the game. Cle scored 3 in the next inning.
I know Manos had that big hit, but still, it was he who blew it for us this game.

I agree that his errors didn't help the team, I wouldn't say he is the one reason they lost that game. How many times did they leave a runner at 3rd in that game? Yeah him trying to steal 3rd seemed really weird, he shouldn't be trying to steal with that hammy injury.

Dadawg_77
09-02-2001, 01:05 PM
What the Sox should do this winter is 1> Ship Clayton to the Flyers. 2> Put Jose back at SS. He brings more to the table that majority of the SS out there. We're not going to get a Jeter, A Rod, Tahada(sp?), Nomar there, so Jose is our best option at SS. Can anyone think of a SS who brings more to the table then Jose that will be available? 3> Have Lee play winter ball in the Latin America and work on his d. Listening to the beat reporter for teh South Twon on the Score the other day. He mention that Lee has bulked up in order to improve his power but with out causing a major improvement, but has cause him to become a tad bit slower in the field.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 01:05 PM
I don't get it. How many games has Valentin lost for us this year with mental mistakes or his glove? Name me one regular on the team who hasn't similarly lost at least one game with his poor hitting, fielding, or mental gaffes. There are precious few ballplayers who can meet these standards for a full six-month season.

I agree we have an abundance of 1B/DH players. KW has already said Canseco is not coming back. If KW has half a brain (a debatable point) he probably already knows Liefer is at best a utility player, very expendable, and no kind of everyday solution for the Sox either in the line up or the field. KW appears smart enough to know he'll never do better than Frank Thomas as his everyday DH, too.

So that leaves what to do at first base and Paul Konerko? Can we do better than what we've got? I say, "Yes," but that's certainly a debatable point.

We've got the makings for a very good team, but it definitely needs tweaking. We can start by unloading a few of the spare players clogging up the line up and thus give more at-bats to the guys who win us games.

Just my 2 cents.

FarWestChicago
09-02-2001, 01:09 PM
You guys are right. If Manos wouldn't have played last night we would have won 1-0. That is stone cold fact. And who knows how bad we would have beaten them Friday night.

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 01:11 PM
So that leaves what to do at first base and Paul Konerko? Can we do better than what we've got? I say, "Yes," but that's certainly a debatable point.

You mean like the "Lumbering Ox" PHG?

We've got the makings for a very good team, but it definitely needs tweaking. We can start by unloading a few of the spare players clogging up the line up and thus give more at-bats to the guys who win us games.

Who in your opinion outside of Clayton is clogging up the lineup?
Not saying your wrong just interested to see who you are talking about.

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
You guys are right. If Manos wouldn't have played last night we would have won 1-0. That is stone cold fact. And who knows how bad we would have beaten them Friday night.

I didn't say Manos cost us the game West. They had plenty of chances to score and didn't get the job done.

:manos
Thanks West.

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I didn't say Manos cost us the game West. They had plenty of chances to score and didn't get the job done.

:manos
Thanks West. There was many opportunities lost last night. Granted the most obvious one was done by Jose V.

This is going to be my point. How many games has he won for us? More than he lost thats for sure.

FarWestChicago
09-02-2001, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
This is going to be my point. How many games has he won for us? More than he lost thats for sure.

Well, we could start with two games ago, Friday night, for one.

Tragg
09-02-2001, 02:03 PM
Carlos Lee is an ex infielder who, from what i gather, had a good glove but an erratic arm. Prep him to play first. I think he has a higher upside than Konerko.

But if we do trade lee or konerko, please, get a lot in return, kw. Both are really good young hitters.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Who in your opinion outside of Clayton is clogging up the lineup?
Not saying your wrong just interested to see who you are talking about.


I'm not sure myself. I suppose it depends on what players are available to KW at what price. Obviously we need to fix our "Valentin Problem", whether by getting rid of him, Clayton, or Durham. We've got a log jam at 1B/DH (Konerko, Liefer, Canseco, and Thomas) and trouble is near in the outfield, too (Maggs, Caballo, Borchard, Singleton, Rowand). We're positively weak at 3B with only Herbert Perry and the promise of Joe Crede on the horizon.

Here's my preference. All of this is highly subjective and open to debate.

IF we can get a decent leadoff man (a BIG "if"), I would trade Durham and move Valentin to 2B. If not, keep Durham and get rid of Clayton, moving Valentin to SS. Let Perry play 3B everyday until Crede is ready, hopefully in time for opening day.

DH is Frank's to keep. If possible, upgrade at 1B (Lumbering Ox) and trade away Konerko. If not, consider putting El Caballo at 1B and trade Konerko anyway. At least then you'll have solved the outfield situation with Borchard in LF, Maggs in RF, and either a new leadoff-man in CF or a platoon of Singleton and Rowand.

The Sox need to acquire at least one impact player this off-season. If not a leadoff-man or a top firstbaseman, then certainly a top catcher. If they fail to get this done, I'm afraid we will be also-rans next season, too.

I think the Sox need at least one veteran in the starting rotation. I'm indifferent whether that veteran should be David Wells.

Again, this is all open to debate.

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
DH is Frank's to keep. If possible, upgrade at 1B (Lumbering Ox) and trade away Konerko. If not, consider putting El Caballo at 1B and trade Konerko anyway. At least then you'll have solved the outfield situation with Borchard in LF, Maggs in RF, and either a new leadoff-man in CF or a platoon of Singleton and Rowand.

I think the Sox need at least one veteran in the starting rotation. I'm indifferent whether that veteran should be David Wells.


Indeed the Lumbering Ox would be a tremendous signing. Singleton will not be on this team next year so you can cross his name off the list above. Look for Juilo to replace Chris at the 4th outfielder. Williams knows he needs to get a new veteran starter but as always money will be the key as to who he is able to get.

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



I'm not sure myself. I suppose it depends on what players are available to KW at what price. Obviously we need to fix our "Valentin Problem", whether by getting rid of him, Clayton, or Durham. We've got a log jam at 1B/DH (Konerko, Liefer, Canseco, and Thomas) and trouble is near in the outfield, too (Maggs, Caballo, Borchard, Singleton, Rowand). We're positively weak at 3B with only Herbert Perry and the promise of Joe Crede on the horizon.

Here's my preference. All of this is highly subjective and open to debate.

IF we can get a decent leadoff man (a BIG "if"), I would trade Durham and move Valentin to 2B. If not, keep Durham and get rid of Clayton, moving Valentin to SS. Let Perry play 3B everyday until Crede is ready, hopefully in time for opening day.

DH is Frank's to keep. If possible, upgrade at 1B (Lumbering Ox) and trade away Konerko. If not, consider putting El Caballo at 1B and trade Konerko anyway. At least then you'll have solved the outfield situation with Borchard in LF, Maggs in RF, and either a new leadoff-man in CF or a platoon of Singleton and Rowand.

The Sox need to acquire at least one impact player this off-season. If not a leadoff-man or a top firstbaseman, then certainly a top catcher. If they fail to get this done, I'm afraid we will be also-rans next season, too.

I think the Sox need at least one veteran in the starting rotation. I'm indifferent whether that veteran should be David Wells.

Again, this is all open to debate.

Alot of good point made.

1. There is many teams who need a up grade at 2b, and until we see what treams are mentions, we can only guess. But the point is we can upgrade really fast with prospects in return for a durham trade. (trade ray ray)

2. Crede is ready for 3 b. Just play him and get it over with. What more can he learn in the minors? (keep perry, he is a good citizen)

3. ss - wow, royce is a goner. unless we get some prospect in return, keep jose v. there. He provides more w/his presence in the lineup.

4. must make up your mind on this. Either trade lee or paulie, and play the other at 1b. If its paulie, have lee in the winter league play 1b.

5. the "of" is set with lee? mags rowand, and even borchard.

6. cat - what is out there in fa? nothing, how 'bout via a trade?

7. Do we need a #1 pitcher? Is our pitching rot set?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 02:35 PM
The one thing I feel most strongly about is the need for one new impact player by next April. Whether that impact player is an established and quality lead-off man, a top-flight firstbasemen like Giambi, or an outstanding catcher, the important thing is that KW gets at least one of these needs filled.

Otherwise, we're probably also-rans again next season.

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The one thing I feel most strongly about is the need for one new impact player by next April. Whether that impact player is an established and quality lead-off man, a top-flight firstbasemen like Giambi, or an outstanding catcher, the important thing is that KW gets at least one of these needs filled.

Otherwise, we're probably also-rans again next season.

What has happen to the prototype lead off man. A man who gets on base, steal 30-40 bases a yr and disrupt the pitcher pysche.

Has cat with great arms killed that?

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Well, we could start with two games ago, Friday night, for one.



no player wins or loses a game by himself. Thats a fact. Another fact is, jose valentin is a complete butcher in the field, and shouldnt be playing the field. Hes probably the worst defensive infielder ive seen in a long long time. He has no business playing in the field, and if he continues to do so, we will continue to not win rings.

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Otherwise, we're probably also-rans again next season.

PHG are you saying the team next year with all the injured players coming back can't win the divison?

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
What has happen to the prototype lead off man. A man who gets on base, steal 30-40 bases a yr and disrupt the pitcher pysche.

Has cat with great arms killed that?

I think teams just don't want to run themselves out of the big inning. The Earl Weaver formula of waiting for the 3 run homer, comes to mind. At-least I think it was Weaver.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


PHG are you saying the team next year with all the injured players coming back can't win the divison?


Nope. I'm saying we are PROBABLY also-rans without one new impact player, either leading off, playing first base, or catching.

Winning is what it is all about. I simply want to stack the odds in our favor.

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31




no player wins or loses a game by himself. Thats a fact. Another fact is, jose valentin is a complete butcher in the field, and shouldnt be playing the field. Hes probably the worst defensive infielder ive seen in a long long time. He has no business playing in the field, and if he continues to do so, we will continue to not win rings. He is brutual when it comes to making errors. Last yr the double play combo of jose and ray, what were they ranked? If i rememeber correctly, wasn't it high? He was a major contributing factor in many wins, was he not?

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Nope. I'm saying we are PROBABLY also-rans without one new impact player, either leading off, playing first base, or catching.

Winning is what it is all about. I simply want to stack the odds in our favor.

I agree there something needs to be done with the catching situation. They can't count on Alomar staying healthy for a full season.

:moron
Stacking the odds? That sounds like some sort of cheating to me. I would expect nothing less from the Scum Sox.

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
He is brutual when it comes to making errors. Last yr the double play combo of jase and ray, what were they ranked? If i rememeber correctly, wasn't it high? He was a major contributing factor in many wins, was he not?

Brutal is an understatement. Hes just down right awful in the field. I have no problem with him being a dh. I have a huge problem with him playing any fielding position. Its not a matter of whether he can hit. Championship teams have players who can do BOTH.

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


Its not a matter of whether he can hit. Championship teams have players who can do BOTH. agreed

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I think teams just don't want to run themselves out of the big inning. The Earl Weaver formula of waiting for the 3 run homer, comes to mind. At-least I think it was Weaver.


Yeah, it was Weaver who always waited for the three-run homerun. With players bigger and stronger and ballparks smaller than ever, everybody is waiting for the 3-run bomb.

"Exactly. That's how I saved baseball." :shammy

As much as I hated artificial turf, the game seemed more exciting when spindly little dudes beat out singles and then stole 100+ bases. As an example, Herzog's Cardinals were built specifically for Busch Stadium's artifical turf. I miss that kind of baseball.

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



Yeah, it was Weaver who always waited for the three-run homerun. With players bigger and stronger and ballparks smaller than ever, everybody is waiting for the 3-run bomb.

"Exactly. That's how I saved baseball." :shammy

As much as I hated artificial turf, the game seemed more exciting when spindly little dudes beat out singles and then stole 100+ bases. As an example, Herzog's Cardinals were built specifically for Busch Stadium's artifical turf. I miss that kind of baseball. me too, i rememeber when rudy law was playing. those were exciting b-ball

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
As much as I hated artificial turf, the game seemed more exciting when spindly little dudes beat out singles and then stole 100+ bases. As an example, Herzog's Cardinals were built specifically for Busch Stadium's artifical turf. I miss that kind of baseball.

Isn't that how the Twins play? They use the turf to their advantage not to mention the baggy in right and the white roof.

:caballo
I don't like the rollerdome.

voodoochile
09-02-2001, 03:18 PM
One of the major changes in the game was the invention of the slidestep pitching delivery. It shortened the time to plate for a pitch dramatically and that is one of the reasons you are seeing not only much less stolen bases, but much higher caught stealing percentages.

Personally, I think we are closer to a pennant than some of you. If this team does nothing but get rid of Clayton, put Jose back at SS, call up Crede, get a healthy Frank back and sign a veteran pitcher they will be competing for the pennant next year, IMO. I expect Borchard to be on the team by mid season and then 1-8 is set in the lineup. No major changes necessary, of course if the Sox spend the money to sign Giambi, it won't bother me at all...

:)

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
One of the major changes in the game was the invention of the slidestep pitching delivery. It shortened the time to plate for a pitch dramatically and that is one of the reasons you are seeing not only much less stolen bases, but much higher caught stealing percentages.

Personally, I think we are closer to a pennant than some of you. If this team does nothing but get rid of Clayton, put Jose back at SS, call up Crede, get a healthy Frank back and sign a veteran pitcher they will be competing for the pennant next year, IMO. I expect Borchard to be on the team by mid season and then 1-8 is set in the lineup. No major changes necessary, of course if the Sox spend the money to sign Giambi, it won't bother me at all...

:)


we have no chance to go far with jose at SS....

voodoochile
09-02-2001, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



we have no chance to go far with jose at SS....

Of course not, BMR has spoken...

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
He is brutual when it comes to making errors. Last yr the double play combo of jose and ray, what were they ranked? If i rememeber correctly, wasn't it high? He was a major contributing factor in many wins, was he not?

They led the league in turning double plays. Not that that's important for a shortstop and secondbasemen.

Jerry_Manuel
09-02-2001, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
They led the league in turning double plays. Not that that's important for a shortstop and secondbasemen.

:hitless
Did Ray ever get ice cream after a dp like me?
I don't think so!

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Of course not, BMR has spoken...

common sense without my heart standing in my way. Baseball 101. you dont win championships with butchers at the most important defensive position.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Isn't that how the Twins play? They use the turf to their advantage not to mention the baggy in right and the white roof.


I've got no problem with the artificial turf except Minnesota's is unsually springy. All the other turf ballparks fixed the bouncing problem with extra padding or using a softer asphalt under the turf. The Hump Dome is still as bad as the AstroDome was back in the late-60's.

The even bigger problem with the HumpDome is that damned white ceiling. There's just no excuse for a ballpark that poorly designed. They ought to make Minnesota forfeit any games scheduled inside that monstrosity.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


common sense without my heart standing in my way. Baseball 101. you dont win championships with butchers at the most important defensive position.

Actually, catcher is more important than shortstop, wouldn't you agree?

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Actually, catcher is more important than shortstop, wouldn't you agree?

Yeah probably. Its hard to say. SS gets the most fielding chances, and good teams generally have good defensive SS.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Yeah probably. Its hard to say. SS gets the most fielding chances, and good teams generally have good defensive SS.


It's not hard at all. A catcher calls and receives nearly every pitched ball, is involved in the defense of every pitch beyond those balls hit out of the infield, oversees the entire playing field, and is responsible for throwing out baserunners. He sees roughly ten-times as much action on the field over a shortstop.

It's no coincidence that the average catcher has a much lower batting average than the average shortstop either. At least someone out there believes catchers are worth more defensively than shortstops, even if Bmr doesn't.

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



It's not hard at all. A catcher calls and receives nearly every pitched ball, is involved in the defense of every pitch beyond those balls hit out of the infield, oversees the entire playing field, and is responsible for throwing out baserunners. He sees roughly ten-times as much action on the field over a shortstop.

It's no coincidence that the average catcher has a much lower batting average than the average shortstop either. At least someone out there believes catchers are worth more defensively than shortstops, even if Bmr doesn't.

on the other hand, you dont usually get to the majors as a catcher, unless youre already a good defensive catcher. How many bad defensive catchers, can you name, who are starting in the major leagues?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 04:44 PM
Josh Paul. Before him, Brook Fordyce.

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Josh Paul. Before him, Brook Fordyce.

LOL! And where are they now? All this just supports that jose shouldnt be starting at SS.....

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 04:46 PM
And before Fordyce, Jorge Fabregas.

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
And before Fordyce, Jorge Fabregas.

Lets just say that the two most important defensive positions are SS and C. With that said, and knowing that both those positions are loaded with good defensive players, Jose shouldnt be at SS if we want to win the world series.

Jjav829
09-02-2001, 04:56 PM
How many bad defensive catchers, can you name, who are starting in the major leagues?

Mike Piazza. But with that bat, I don't think anyone in NY cares what he does defensively.

FarWestChicago
09-02-2001, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31

Jose shouldnt be at SS if we want to win the world series.

This damn software has a bug. The same message keeps getting posted over and over. I'll find it and fix it, fellas.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


on the other hand, you dont usually get to the majors as a catcher, unless youre already a good defensive catcher. How many bad defensive catchers, can you name, who are starting in the major leagues?

LOL! And where are they now? All this just supports that jose shouldnt be starting at SS.....



Look, you're the one who suggested shortstops were at least as important defensively as catchers; I'M THE ONE saying they aren't. The fact that I peeled off the names of three poor defensive catchers who once started but don't anymore is MY proof, not yours.

You haven't proven anything except you don't understand your own argument.

Back to the original point: defensive shortstops aren't nearly as important as defensive catchers. You aren't seriously going to debate this further are you?

idseer
09-02-2001, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Back to the original point: defensive shortstops aren't nearly as important as defensive catchers.

why couldn't the sox figure that out last year when they had their hands on one?

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Look, you're the one who suggested shortstops were at least as important defensively as catchers; I'M THE ONE saying they aren't. The fact that I peeled off the names of three poor defensive catchers who once started but don't anymore is MY proof, not yours.

You haven't proven anything except you don't understand your own argument.

Back to the original point: defensive shortstops aren't nearly as important as defensive catchers. You aren't seriously going to debate this further are you?

i really dont see what is so hard to understand about this. a good defensive SS is more important than a good defensive catcher because ALL catchers who start, are good on defense. You named 3 absolute hacks who had a cup of tea as a starter out of desperation.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-02-2001, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


i really dont see what is so hard to understand about this. a good defensive SS is more important than a good defensive catcher because ALL catchers who start, are good on defense. You named 3 absolute hacks who had a cup of tea as a starter out of desperation.


Taking up your challenge, I named THREE examples (Paul, Fordyce, and Fabregas) of lousy defensive catchers from ONE team (the Sox) in the space of FIVE seasons (1997-2001).

But I guess you've proven your point: never admit defeat.

:)

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



Taking up your challenge, I named THREE examples (Paul, Fordyce, and Fabregas) of lousy defensive catchers from ONE team (the Sox) in the space of FIVE seasons (1997-2001).

But I guess you've proven your point: never admit defeat.

:)

Whether you realize it or not, those 3 guys are not and were not "starters". every catcher starts games, that doesnt make them starters. Paul is and never was a starter. THose other two had brief stints as regulars. Those 3 are not starting catchers. If they were, theyd still be starting.

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


on the other hand, you dont usually get to the majors as a catcher, unless youre already a good defensive catcher. How many bad defensive catchers, can you name, who are starting in the major leagues?


NOTE: i NEVER said there werent starting catcher that lacked defense, in the history of baseball, now did i? I simply asked you how many you could name. What may i ask am i suppose to admit defeat in?

oldcomiskey
09-02-2001, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


common sense without my heart standing in my way. Baseball 101. you dont win championships with butchers at the most important defensive position.
How many errors did jeter and knoblock have last season

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

How many errors did jeter and knoblock have last season


HUH???? Knoblach is not a SS and jeter is an excellent SS......

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



HUH???? Knoblach is not a SS and jeter is an excellent SS...... isn't jorge pasdga (sp) of the yankees isn't real that swift on defense?

other names to consider, jason kendall, mike piazza, kelly stinnetts (sp) to name a few who starts and is not so swift on def as a starting catcher.

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
isn't jorge pasdga (sp) of the yankees isn't real that swift on defense?

other names to consider, jason kendall, mike piazza, kelly stinnetts (sp) to name a few who starts and is not so swift on def as a starting catcher.

kendall and piazza are solid, although theyre getting old and are often injured....

Dadawg_77
09-02-2001, 09:34 PM
Okay for those who don't like Jose, who is better that the Sox can get for next year?

Jeter - Not Leaving (NL) NY
A Rod - NL Texas
Nomar - NL Boston
Furcal - NL Atlanta
Tahada - NL Oakland
Guzman - NL Minn
Aurillia - NL San Fran

Okay so who is out there that the Sox can get within reason? If you believe Royce Clayton will the lead Sox to the WS, just stop posting and admit you have no clue. If that the case just admit have no clue. Ths Sox have no one in the minors at this moment who is ready to come up at SS. Maybe the Sox can trade for Bordick, brings some D and decent offence. If the Sox want a no hit and all glove type of guy go for the whole fn show when it comes that type of player and go get Ordenez from the Mets. He will provide better play at SS but limited bat, right now a 619 OPS for this year and 586 for his career. One thing is Ray and Mike make more the Jose does.

KempersRS
09-02-2001, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Okay for those who don't like Jose, who is better that the Sox can get for next year?

Jeter - Not Leaving (NL) NY
A Rod - NL Texas
Nomar - NL Boston
Furcal - NL Atlanta
Tahada - NL Oakland
Guzman - NL Minn
Aurillia - NL San Fran

Okay so who is out there that the Sox can get within reason? If you believe Royce Clayton will the lead Sox to the WS, just stop posting and admit you have no clue. If that the case just admit have no clue. Ths Sox have no one in the minors at this moment who is ready to come up at SS. Maybe the Sox can trade for Bordick, brings some D and decent offence. If the Sox want a no hit and all glove type of guy go for the whole fn show when it comes that type of player and go get Ordenez from the Mets. He will provide better play at SS but limited bat, right now a 619 OPS for this year and 586 for his career. One thing is Ray and Mike make more the Jose does.

If we ever get Rey Ordonez, I'll give up hope right then and there. Ordonez's defense has even slightly declined lately and his offense is (gulp) much worse than Royce's.

Bmr31
09-02-2001, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Okay for those who don't like Jose, who is better that the Sox can get for next year?

Jeter - Not Leaving (NL) NY
A Rod - NL Texas
Nomar - NL Boston
Furcal - NL Atlanta
Tahada - NL Oakland
Guzman - NL Minn
Aurillia - NL San Fran

Okay so who is out there that the Sox can get within reason? If you believe Royce Clayton will the lead Sox to the WS, just stop posting and admit you have no clue. If that the case just admit have no clue. Ths Sox have no one in the minors at this moment who is ready to come up at SS. Maybe the Sox can trade for Bordick, brings some D and decent offence. If the Sox want a no hit and all glove type of guy go for the whole fn show when it comes that type of player and go get Ordenez from the Mets. He will provide better play at SS but limited bat, right now a 619 OPS for this year and 586 for his career. One thing is Ray and Mike make more the Jose does.


What poster ever said royce clayton was going to lead us to a ring????? Speaking of no clue, ordonez would be a downgrade to royce.....

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



ordonez would be a downgrade to royce.....

Why???? Rey ordonez still has range and only 9 errors.

One player forgot is Alex Gonzales of tor, but i doubt tor will ever trade with us again.

Tragg
09-02-2001, 11:18 PM
We can afford one no-hit position. Unfortunately, for much of this year, we played with three - c, ss, cf - and arguably four if you add harold.

So, take your pick: no hit ss or no hit catcher? I say no hit catcher as hitting ss are easier to find and also cheaper. Johnson is a decent defender.

The last thing we need to do is trade for a sanchez or ordonez - we've got that in clayton.

LongDistanceFan
09-02-2001, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
We can afford one no-hit position. Unfortunately, for much of this year, we played with three - c, ss, cf - and arguably four if you add harold.

So, take your pick: no hit ss or no hit catcher? I say no hit catcher as hitting ss are easier to find and also cheaper. Johnson is a decent defender.

The last thing we need to do is trade for a sanchez or ordonez - we've got that in clayton. I was thinking that all other positions resolved, meaning the "of", and clayton issue taken care off. We can deal with a no - hit ss who can stablize the "if".

However, i came to the conclusion that jose v is valueable to not have in the lineup.

Imagine the so - called hitters hit, we can deal with two no hits. We took a major hit in the injuries this yr.

HootieMcBoob
09-02-2001, 11:30 PM
this is a stupid thing to say but:

i feel proud that i started a 5-page thread on WSI...it makes me feel important in the 'white sox community'.

see i told you that was dumb

PaleHoseGeorge
09-03-2001, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by HootieMcBoob
this is a stupid thing to say but:

i feel proud that i started a 5-page thread on WSI...it makes me feel important in the 'white sox community'.

see i told you that was dumb

Oh Hootie, you would be surprised how stupid things can get inside here. I bet there are plenty of us who dream of someday starting a five-page thread.

LMAO!

Jerry_Manuel
09-03-2001, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I bet there are plenty of us who dream of someday starting a five-page thread.


Yes we can dream but when BMR and Randar get together the dream of starting a 5 page thread becomes reality.

Bmr31
09-03-2001, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Yes we can dream but when BMR and Randar get together the dream of starting a 5 page thread becomes reality.


LOL yeah him and i have been involved in some long ones. I tend to be involved in long threads because im outspoken and i almost never give in when i know im right.... :)

Iwritecode
09-03-2001, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



LOL yeah him and i have been involved in some long ones. I tend to be involved in long threads because im outspoken and i almost never give in when i know im right.... :)

The same thing happens when you are wrong too, hence the long threads...

;)

Dadawg_77
09-03-2001, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



What poster ever said royce clayton was going to lead us to a ring????? Speaking of no clue, ordonez would be a downgrade to royce.....

First off I was only offering ideas of who should replace Jose. And so far there hasn't really been one concrete answer. I am thinking of guy who the Sox can go out and get, Ray was on the block last off season so he may be on it again. So who would you like the Sox go and get BMR, within reason of course, to replace Clayton at SS?

Also Ray is only a slight downgrade from Royce when you look at the numbers. The offensive numbers are very similar this year, with Royce having a slight edge, mostly due to the fact Royce has more pop then Ray. Royce is hitting 246 with a obp of 295 and slg% of 380, while Ray is hitting 240, obp of 291, and slg% 327. Plus Ray is more consistent, the reason Royce's number are as "large" as they are is he a great July for his standards, the first two months were garbage, and August was about avg to above avg based on Clayton's standards. Add in the fact that I havn't heard stories about Ray being a "clubhouse cancer", while it seems every team Royce has been on, he has had problems with his teammates.

Bmr31
09-03-2001, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


First off I was only offering ideas of who should replace Jose. And so far there hasn't really been one concrete answer. I am thinking of guy who the Sox can go out and get, Ray was on the block last off season so he may be on it again. So who would you like the Sox go and get BMR, within reason of course, to replace Clayton at SS?

Also Ray is only a slight downgrade from Royce when you look at the numbers. The offensive numbers are very similar this year, with Royce having a slight edge, mostly due to the fact Royce has more pop then Ray. Royce is hitting 246 with a obp of 295 and slg% of 380, while Ray is hitting 240, obp of 291, and slg% 327. Plus Ray is more consistent, the reason Royce's number are as "large" as they are is he a great July for his standards, the first two months were garbage, and August was about avg to above avg based on Clayton's standards. Add in the fact that I havn't heard stories about Ray being a "clubhouse cancer", while it seems every team Royce has been on, he has had problems with his teammates.


What does it matter? WHo cares who i would go out and get? WE have a GM, thats his job......