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munchman33
11-23-2003, 05:12 PM
A friend of mine in Cincinatti called me today saying that the Reds are trying to make this trade with the White Sox.

Sox get: Griffey, Sean Casey

Reds get: Mags, Konerko, Koch

This saves the sox about six million this year, but saves the Reds a ton over time. Anyway, just thought I'd share. Not sure if its true or not.

oldcomiskey
11-23-2003, 05:20 PM
lets dont even go there--take maggs out of it and we will see

TheRockinMT
11-23-2003, 05:21 PM
Not that I wouldn't like Griffey on the Sox, but Maggs, Konerko and Koch for him and Casey seems like an awful lot of talent for what we got back. Remember that the Reds tried once before to pull a Griffey Jr for Maggs trade and got laughed out of the ballpark. Doesn't mean of course that something couldn't happen that involves Griffey.

CubKilla
11-23-2003, 05:37 PM
Second time in as many offseasons that a Maggs/Griffey Jr. deal has been rumored.

I'm with oldcomiskey on this one.

SuperSteve
11-23-2003, 06:05 PM
No way. Not all three those guys for Griffey and Casey. The Reds were going to do a Nevin for Griffey deal last year, and Magglio is a better player than Nevin and Griffey (the recent Griffey). Konerko playing well is better than Casey too. Koch could come back this year, I say no way.

SoxxoS
11-23-2003, 06:31 PM
Or you can look at it from another viewpoint-

We get rid of Koch, who most of us would get rid of for a bag of Fritos.

Konerko-See above.

Griffey for Mags swap I am not really in favor of, I want some quality minor leaguers in return. Maggs for Griffey is too much.

But this may be the big deal cheeses was talking about? It has KW all over it.

Daver
11-23-2003, 06:31 PM
Griffey's contract.

2000: $12.5M [$5.5M of 2000 salary deferred until 2009+]
2001: $12.5M [$6.5M from subsequent years deferred until 2009-2024]
2002: $12.5M
2003: $12.5M
2004: $12.5M
2005: $12.5M
2006: $12.5M
2007: $12.5M
2008: $12.5M
2009: Team option with $4.0M buyout

That alone tells me this deal will never happen.

munchman33
11-23-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Griffey's contract.

2000: $12.5M [$5.5M of 2000 salary deferred until 2009+]
2001: $12.5M [$6.5M from subsequent years deferred until 2009-2024]
2002: $12.5M
2003: $12.5M
2004: $12.5M
2005: $12.5M
2006: $12.5M
2007: $12.5M
2008: $12.5M
2009: Team option with $4.0M buyout

That alone tells me this deal will never happen.

I'm assuming the Sox would ask the reds to pay some of Griffey's contract...

And the Sox are looking to lose money off this years payroll to make another run at Bartolo (hopefully)

Don't forget also that Kenny has already displayed displeasure over Magglio's unwillingness to sign a multi-year deal at less than $15 million a season.

flo-B-flo
11-23-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Griffey's contract.

2000: $12.5M [$5.5M of 2000 salary deferred until 2009+]
2001: $12.5M [$6.5M from subsequent years deferred until 2009-2024]
2002: $12.5M
2003: $12.5M
2004: $12.5M
2005: $12.5M
2006: $12.5M
2007: $12.5M
2008: $12.5M
2009: Team option with $4.0M buyout

That alone tells me this deal will never happen. This and Griffey is a spoiled, silver bat in his mouth, egomaniacal primadonna, whos attitude spreads cancerlike on any team he has played.

MRKARNO
11-23-2003, 06:44 PM
So we'd be trying to deal a one-year 14 mil contract and in return get a 12.5 mil, 6 year contract

No way in hell

windycityson
11-23-2003, 06:46 PM
I'd rather see Lee and Konerko for Griffey and Casey. Maggs has to much of an upside. Plus, Lee is his most valuable now after the numbers he put up last season. We might be able to pull a "superstar" deal if Lee's involved. But a big question is Griffey's health. He has missed too many games since going to Cincy. I think he'd hit a ton back in the AL.

windy

Soxfest
11-23-2003, 06:52 PM
That trade will not happen.

fquaye149
11-23-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by flo-B-flo
This and Griffey is a spoiled, silver bat in his mouth, egomaniacal primadonna, whos attitude spreads cancerlike on any team he has played.

a.) where did you come up with that idea?

b.) why would that preclude kenny from signing him, if it's even true(remember albert belle, david wells)

spanishwhite
11-23-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
a.) where did you come up with that idea?

b.) why would that preclude kenny from signing him, if it's even true(remember albert belle, david wells)

Well, technically, Wells was acquired not signed and I think Schu signed Belle.

Point taken, though.

Jerko
11-23-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by SuperSteve
No way. Not all three those guys for Griffey and Casey. The Reds were going to do a Nevin for Griffey deal last year, and Magglio is a better player than Nevin and Griffey (the recent Griffey). Konerko playing well is better than Casey too. Koch could come back this year, I say no way.


It CAN be those 3 guys for Griffey and Casey if you throw JM into the mix. The Sox would STILL owe the Reds about 3 players to make it even!

RedPinStripes
11-23-2003, 08:51 PM
You think Ozzie called Frank out? HA! He would be all over Griffy. Guillen seems to have this envy/jealousy toward the big money makers in baseball. And i doubt he will take any **** from a spoiled brat who 's a has-been.

fquaye149
11-23-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Guillen seems to have this envy/jealousy toward the big money makers in baseball. .



wait....he loves I-rod though. what do you base this on? cuz he said frank would have to play his way, and that he wouldn't tolerate things like not showing up for team events? so he has envy/jealousy?

or do i just not know about something

RedPinStripes
11-23-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
wait....he loves I-rod though. what do you base this on? cuz he said frank would have to play his way, and that he wouldn't tolerate things like not showing up for team events? so he has envy/jealousy?

or do i just not know about something

He's made comments about lazy multi million dollar ball players. I just caught this from his press conference. I guess he like I-rod becuse he's a "grinder"

JaylisJP
11-23-2003, 09:30 PM
Firstly, the deal will never happen is right, at least not as structured....i doubt we'd get casey as well. That said, Griffey, although he is an egotistical, blah blah blah run-your-mouth jabronie, said himself he's not done, he's young still and he'll come back, and I for some reason believe him. Maggs to me is like Elton Brand, he's strong, reliable, plays well every night, but you'll never win a title with him as your guy...evidence in that when it really matters, Magglio disappears...period. So who knows, Griffey may be worth it if he can return to some form of .290 /40 HRS, 120 RBIS....which can definitely happen. So why not Griffey?

RKMeibalane
11-23-2003, 09:37 PM
The Sox have too many question marks heading into next season. Griffey's arrival would only add to the uncertainty, because nobody knows whether this man can physically play an entire season anymore. It's been that long since he was able to play on a full-time basis.

It's looking more and more like 2004 will be Maggs' final season in Chicago. If that's the case, then KW needs to find a player or players of equal value that he can get in return for Ordonez, not someone whose better days are behind him. Griffey would be nothing more than a mistake, and the Sox front-office can ill afford anymore of those right now.

fquaye149
11-23-2003, 10:22 PM
it's not like griffey's washed up, just hurt

who knows, maybe cincy's just a bad place for him....

he played well there when he was healthy...who's to say a change of scenery wouldn't do the best (AL at least) player of the 90's some good?

JDP
11-23-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I guess he like I-rod becuse he's a "grinder"

I'm sure the Hispanic connection has a lot to do with that relationship as well.

cornball
11-24-2003, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by JaylisJP
Firstly, the deal will never happen is right, at least not as structured....i doubt we'd get casey as well. That said, Griffey, although he is an egotistical, blah blah blah run-your-mouth jabronie, said himself he's not done, he's young still and he'll come back, and I for some reason believe him. Maggs to me is like Elton Brand, he's strong, reliable, plays well every night, but you'll never win a title with him as your guy...evidence in that when it really matters, Magglio disappears...period. So who knows, Griffey may be worth it if he can return to some form of .290 /40 HRS, 120 RBIS....which can definitely happen. So why not Griffey?

I agree with most of what you say, Griffey's contract is just a "ball and chain" for too many years of uncertainty. How many years in a row has he been hurt?

ondafarm
11-24-2003, 07:14 AM
Maybe I'm alone in liking this deal (Mags, Konerko and Koch for Griffey and Casey)

I do think the Reds would owe us a couple of mid to upper prospects.

Koch - he'll bounce back but everybody here seems to think he's worthless. Since this is his salary year coming up, I think he'll be a major stooper.

Konerko - Cincy would love to have him back and clearing him would allow Ross Gload, a left first baseman to come up and share time with Frank at 1B

Mags- hate to seem him go, but this buys talent for a departing player. He won't sign for less than $12/million /year and why should he? The Sox have cheapskated him for life.

Griffey - would solidify our defense (CF-SS-2B and C are key defense spots, would all be solid)

Sox would now have corner outfield spot open to bring up Reed (now or eventually) Borchard and Rowand gets solid playing time.

Overall, Sox defense gets much better, Sox offense loses right- handed but gains left-handed pop, speed goes way up and several players get a real shot (Marte, Rowand and probably Reed.)

Okay, I like the deal.

gosox41
11-24-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
A friend of mine in Cincinatti called me today saying that the Reds are trying to make this trade with the White Sox.

Sox get: Griffey, Sean Casey

Reds get: Mags, Konerko, Koch

This saves the sox about six million this year, but saves the Reds a ton over time. Anyway, just thought I'd share. Not sure if its true or not.

How about Koch and Konerko for Griffey and Casey.

The fact that Cincy wants us to assume this way overweighted contract for a player who is constantly hurt means the Sox better be free to dump a lot of crap on them.

In fact, now that I think about it, do the Reds have any good young pitchers (it's early and I'm too tired to think)? I want one of those thrown in the deal to. Griffey is good to go on the DL with a major injury at least once a year.

Bob

jordan23ventura
11-24-2003, 09:54 AM
How about we ask Cincinnati what the hell they were thinking? This has to be made up by some columnist in the Cincinnati local paper or something. If KW can't get anything decent for Maggs this offseason and Maggs refuses to sign a long term deal (maybe play 1B/DH after Thomas era ends?), WHY wouldn't KW just let him finish out the season in Chicago and let him go? WHY WHY WHY would he accept a contract like Griffeys??? EVEN IF GRIFFEY CAME OUT OF LAST SEASON HEALTHY AND PUT UP NUMBERS LIKE HE DID IN SEATTLE, HE WOULD STILL ONLY BE WORTH WHAT HE IS CURRENTLY GETTING PAID!!!!!!

I'm sure KW is reading on this topic right now saying, "Man how stupid do these Sox fans think I am?"

Or at least I hope so......

jordan23ventura
11-24-2003, 09:57 AM
BTW, I am no huge Konerko fan but he's better than Casey. Koch could very well rebound but the only question is the money he is getting paid. I take the trade Casey + Tim Hummel back + prospect for Koch and Konerko. Otherwise, no deal.

StepsInSC
11-24-2003, 09:57 AM
Griffey is good for what, 30 games a year?

I'm not sure I'd give up anything for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he never played a full season ever again.

munchman33
11-24-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Griffey is good for what, 30 games a year?

I'm not sure I'd give up anything for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he never played a full season ever again.

That's what people were saying about I-Rod.

wsgdf
11-24-2003, 10:27 AM
I must be one of the few who like this trade as well.

I don't know how much Casey is making but:

12.5 mil per on Griffey to me is a fair gamble - because:

This year - say Casey is making 3-4 mil -

you lose Konerko's deadweight 8 mil
you lose Koch's deadweight 6 mil
you lose Maggs' (obviously one of our top two hitters) 14.5

That's 28.5 mil minus the 16-17 mil for Griffey and Casey to give us about a $10-11 million savings.

What does it mean?

IF Griffey can remain healthy - it means you just made the deal of the century.

You've solved CF.
You've replaced two R handed bats with 2 L handed bats.
You've freed up 10-11 mil for Tejada or a pitcher.

Sorry - I love the idea of this deal.

Not only that - if I'm not mistaken, Griff and Thomas are buddies - and they both share the sad misfortune of having their mid-90's numbers dwarfed by steroid freaks.

I'd love to see them finish their careers together both attempting to finish off their careers in a way more representative of their 'sure thing' HOF beginnings.

munchman33
11-24-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by wsgdf
I must be one of the few who like this trade as well.

I don't know how much Casey is making but:

12.5 mil per on Griffey to me is a fair gamble - because:

This year - say Casey is making 3-4 mil -

you lose Konerko's deadweight 8 mil
you lose Koch's deadweight 6 mil
you lose Maggs' (obviously one of our top two hitters) 14.5

That's 28.5 mil minus the 16-17 mil for Griffey and Casey to give us about a $10-11 million savings.

What does it mean?

IF Griffey can remain healthy - it means you just made the deal of the century.

You've solved CF.
You've replaced two R handed bats with 2 L handed bats.
You've freed up 10-11 mil for Tejada or a pitcher.

Sorry - I love the idea of this deal.

Not only that - if I'm not mistaken, Griff and Thomas are buddies - and they both share the sad misfortune of having their mid-90's numbers dwarfed by steroid freaks.

I'd love to see them finish their careers together both attempting to finish off their careers in a way more representative of their 'sure thing' HOF beginnings.

Well, for the next two years Casey and Konerko actually make the same amount of money...but I like this deal for all the same reasons. And I'm sure we'd be getting prospects as well.

StepsInSC
11-24-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
That's what people were saying about I-Rod.

Yes...I see your point, but that just kind of proves the underlying point of this whole thing. The risk is so high, and so is the possible return. Personally I wouldn't mind it maybe if Griffey toned down his play in CF a bit and stopped playing like he was 21. Even Griffey playing 80% in CF is better then anything we have, but the risk of him getting injured again is still incredibly high.

I guess I'd be rather indifferent.

One question though, who would you want in RF?

ondafarm
11-24-2003, 11:37 AM
You know, the more I think about such a deal, the more I like it.

I think Griffey would very much like to return to the AL and US Cellular is a player friendlier park that Great American. Casey looks like a promising young hitter who'd be able to split time with Frank at first and remain as the next generation of 1B'er. This adds two power lefties to balance out our lineup. It also frees up a lot of money to go after pitching. Here's a first draft lineup:

1. Rowand/Reed/Borchard platoon in RF
2. Alomar 2B
3. Thomas DH/1B
4. Griffey CF
5. CLee LF
6. Casey 1B/DH
7. Valentin (platoon? with Graffanino)SS
8. Crede 3B
9. Olivo C

Rotation: Loaiza, Buerhle, Ponson (FA), Garland, Schoenweiss

Foulke You
11-24-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Yes...I see your point, but that just kind of proves the underlying point of this whole thing. The risk is so high, and so is the possible return. Personally I wouldn't mind it maybe if Griffey toned down his play in CF a bit and stopped playing like he was 21. Even Griffey playing 80% in CF is better then anything we have, but the risk of him getting injured again is still incredibly high.

I guess I'd be rather indifferent.

One question though, who would you want in RF?

I think the RF spot would go to a youngster like Rowand or Borchard. Borchard hasn't shown he is ready for the big time yet so it probably be Rowand. Of course, they can always sign a cheap solid veteran player like Brian Daubach for 1.5 million or so to fill the hole in RF.

nodiggity59
11-24-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
That's what people were saying about I-Rod.

Hell yeah! The upside is huge, just like w/ IRod

I say we try to use the injury thing as an excuse for a better deal but I take a chance on one of the most talented players of our time for that price.

daveeym
11-24-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by wsgdf
I must be one of the few who like this trade as well.

I don't know how much Casey is making but:

12.5 mil per on Griffey to me is a fair gamble - because:

This year - say Casey is making 3-4 mil -

you lose Konerko's deadweight 8 mil
you lose Koch's deadweight 6 mil
you lose Maggs' (obviously one of our top two hitters) 14.5

That's 28.5 mil minus the 16-17 mil for Griffey and Casey to give us about a $10-11 million savings.

What does it mean?

IF Griffey can remain healthy - it means you just made the deal of the century.

You've solved CF.
You've replaced two R handed bats with 2 L handed bats.
You've freed up 10-11 mil for Tejada or a pitcher.

Sorry - I love the idea of this deal.

Not only that - if I'm not mistaken, Griff and Thomas are buddies - and they both share the sad misfortune of having their mid-90's numbers dwarfed by steroid freaks.

I'd love to see them finish their careers together both attempting to finish off their careers in a way more representative of their 'sure thing' HOF beginnings.

Agreed. It's a gamble on Griffey's health but could be a fabulous deal.

Foulke You
11-24-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Agreed. It's a gamble on Griffey's health but could be a fabulous deal.

I think it is a HUGE gamble. If Griffey's a bust, you are saddled with a gigantic contract that goes until 2008.

munchman33
11-24-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think it is a HUGE gamble. If Griffey's a bust, you are saddled with a gigantic contract that goes until 2008.

Yeah, its a huge gamble. But it would give us a fool's hope, which is the most a small market team can have. If, and I reiterate, IF Griffey returns to form he is a steal at 12.5 million a year.

wsgdf
11-24-2003, 12:13 PM
If Griffey's a bust, you are saddled with a gigantic contract that goes until 2008.

I disasgree. IF, he remains injury prone - you will surely be able to unload his contract on another team that is willing to take the same gamble. IT's GRIFFEY - he's still only 34 years old and as talented as anyone. Unless he suffers a career ending injury - you WILL be able to trade him.

MisterB
11-24-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think it is a HUGE gamble. If Griffey's a bust, you are saddled with a gigantic contract that goes until 2008.

Addendum: The contract is through '08, the deferred payments continue until 2024. Try finding a team that wants to pay Junior for the next 20 years.

munchman33
11-24-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Addendum: The contract is through '08, the deferred payments continue until 2024. Try finding a team that wants to pay Junior for the next 20 years.

I'm sure whatever team Griffey gets traded to will want the Reds to make some monetary contributions. The Reds realize this as well, and will probably have to cough up about a quarter of what Griffey is owed just to trade him. But they are really desperate to do so and will meet this demand for the right deal.

nodiggity59
11-24-2003, 12:25 PM
Can anybody find a media article supporting this? How about that friend from Cincinatti? Where did he get his info?

munchman33
11-24-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
Can anybody find a media article supporting this? How about that friend from Cincinatti? Where did he get his info?

I can't seem to find any online. My friend said they've been talking about it on sports radio for the last three days.

thepaulbowski
11-24-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Addendum: The contract is through '08, the deferred payments continue until 2024. Try finding a team that wants to pay Junior for the next 20 years.

Isn't that the only way JR does business, with deferred contracts???

MisterB
11-24-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Isn't that the only way JR does business, with deferred contracts???

Actually I should have adressed that response to this post:

I disasgree. IF, he remains injury prone - you will surely be able to unload his contract on another team that is willing to take the same gamble. IT's GRIFFEY - he's still only 34 years old and as talented as anyone. Unless he suffers a career ending injury - you WILL be able to trade him.

JR might want to pay Junior until he's 54, but who else would?

Chisoxfn
11-24-2003, 12:48 PM
Find a 3rd team to get into this deal, one that is willing to take on Griffey and you may of found something. If the Sox could get a decent to good pitcher for Griffey (No idea if thats plausible with all he's owed) then I'd say go for it.

Cause that would clear a heck of a lot of money allowing the Sox to get Tejada and Colon. Then you find a FA or two in the outfield. And Thomas, Casey Tejada or however you place it gives the Sox some balance or r/l/r in the lineup.

I'd say its definately worth listening too, but Griffey is owed so much and his legs are chronic, its not like he's playing on turf anymore. Of course most everything with him has been completely fluke.

Chisoxfn
11-24-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
Yeah, its a huge gamble. But it would give us a fool's hope, which is the most a small market team can have. If, and I reiterate, IF Griffey returns to form he is a steal at 12.5 million a year.

If you ask me, a small market team can't afford this kind of gamble. Sox consider themselves a small market team. If Griffey goes down the Sox now have a 12.5 mill thorn in their side till 2008. Its a lot harder to compete when your salary goes from 55-60 mill to spend on talent to 43-48 mill when you take Griffey's contract into account.

Then again they got that same situation with Konerko and Koch around. Plus, if you can get one healthy season out of Griffey you have a guy paid an affordable salary and one that will have some amazing value and is that star that can fill the seats.

If JR is willing to do chance it and if it backfires, willing to find a way to still put together a competitive club, one that can win it all, then I say GO FOR IT.

Plus Griffey can now DH at times. Coudl you imagine, Griffey and Frank together. I remember when I was 7 or 8 arguing with my friends on who was better and we'd try to trade baseball cards and I'd also say Thomas, even though I knew Griffey was the more complete player. :smile:

Gumshoe
11-24-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn

Plus Griffey can now DH at times. Coudl you imagine, Griffey and Frank together. I remember when I was 7 or 8 arguing with my friends on who was better and we'd try to trade baseball cards and I'd also say Thomas, even though I knew Griffey was the more complete player. :smile:

Yeah,I can imagine Griffey and Frank in the same lineup. One of my worst nightmares. .260+ diminishing every year ... but what a threat those guys are. It's not like we'd actually get to watch griffey's injured arse play though ... well

Chisoxfn
11-24-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Yeah,I can imagine Griffey and Frank in the same lineup. One of my worst nightmares. .260+ diminishing every year ... but what a threat those guys are. It's not like we'd actually get to watch griffey's injured arse play though ... well

Yep, thats the other side to it. I do think Frank puts up similar numbers to what he did last year. If thats the case that isn't horrible, especially if Ozzie can convince him to move to the 5 hole. Actually I'd say thats just fine production from a 5 hole hitter, although I'd like a climb in his average. I'm convinced if Griffey ever gest healthy he'll put up numbers where he won't miss a bit, but thats a big IF.

My preferred scenario would be making that deal to clear cash and finding someone else to deal Griffey and in return you get a solid pitcher or something and clear around 24 mill in cash. Then the Sox can go out and get Colon and Tejada and do quite a bit of bargain hunting.

Deadguy
11-24-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by wsgdf
Not only that - if I'm not mistaken, Griff and Thomas are buddies - and they both share the sad misfortune of having their mid-90's numbers dwarfed by steroid freaks.

I'd love to see them finish their careers together both attempting to finish off their careers in a way more representative of their 'sure thing' HOF beginnings.

I agree. He and Frank are in fact good friends. I remember back in September of 1999, when Frank was booed during a series between the Sox and the Mariners, he was quoted as being perplexed by it, since Frank was still hitting over .300.

I'd love to see Thomas and Griffey back to back:

http://i.cnn.net/si/si_online/covers/images/1994/0808_large.jpg

maurice
11-24-2003, 01:28 PM
The problem with the deal isn't the AMOUNT of Griffey's contract, it's the LENGTH of his contract. I might consider it if Griffey had only a one-year deal. However, as it stands, Maggs, Konerko, and Koch come off the books several times faster than Griffey does. This is the main reason the Reds are trying to unload him and probably would take on both Koch and Konerko to get it done. Keep in mind that Boston is willing to give up Ramirez (a MUCH more productive player than Griffey) for absolutely nothing and still can't find a taker. Griffey has NEGATIVE trade value.

Chisoxfn
11-24-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The problem with the deal isn't the AMOUNT of Griffey's contract, it's the LENGTH of his contract. I might consider it if Griffey had only a one-year deal. However, as it stands, Maggs, Konerko, and Koch come off the books several times faster than Griffey does. This is the main reason the Reds are trying to unload him and probably would take on both Koch and Konerko to get it done. Keep in mind that Boston is willing to give up Ramirez (a MUCH more productive player than Griffey) for absolutely nothing and still can't find a taker. Griffey has NEGATIVE trade value.

Ya, but Ramirez has an attitude problem, sucks defensively and makes 20 mill or so for a long time. Griffey is 8 mill less then that a year long term.

I think Griff, if he has a good year, is much more easily tradeable and he may still be tradeable.

nodiggity59
11-24-2003, 01:45 PM
How about this then:

It is safe to assume the White Sox will make other stupid investments in the future (see Koch, Konerko).

However, this will NOT happen if we sign Griffey. We won't be able to afford it. He may be a bad investment, but we won't make any others and he's a seat filler. Basically the question is do you want Griffey or do you want a progression of more Koch and Konerkoites? I'd take a future hall of famer.

And let's not forget he may bounce back. IF he does we would have the two best American league hitters of the last 10 years on one team plus the short term salary relief to get some pitching.

As for unloading him, things will be helped by Cincinatti picking up some of the tab and I see Seattle being willing to take him back 3 years down the line if we further pick up a portion of it.

Where do I sign?

StepsInSC
11-24-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn

Plus Griffey can now DH at times. Coudl you imagine, Griffey and Frank together. I remember when I was 7 or 8 arguing with my friends on who was better and we'd try to trade baseball cards and I'd also say Thomas, even though I knew Griffey was the more complete player. :smile:


Sounds just like my childhood! I still have about 300 baseball cards of Frank Thomas, and like 10 of Griffey. I had friend who loved Griffey and we would always just swap the two.

Scotty347
11-24-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59

However, this will NOT happen if we sign Griffey. We won't be able to afford it. He may be a bad investment, but we won't make any others and he's a seat filler.

Is Griffey really a seat filler at this point? I really don't think so. I'd rather stick with Maggs.

I'd take a future hall of famer.


I don't know about this either. If he stays in the tank I don't think you'll find him in the HOF.

wsgdf
11-24-2003, 04:39 PM
He's in the HOF if he retires today - so is Frank by the way.

TheRockinMT
11-24-2003, 05:50 PM
Cincy Source Says NO WAY!
I checked with a person in Cincy who covers the Reds and he said this was the first time he heard the rumor and that he would be really surprised if the Sox would want to take on Junior's and Casey's contracts.

StepsInSC
11-24-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Scotty347

I don't know about this either. If he stays in the tank I don't think you'll find him in the HOF.

He was the greatest player in the MLB for an entire decade, that alone is enough.

jordan23ventura
11-24-2003, 06:03 PM
still very risky but i do have to agree that if griffey were to rebound and stay healthy for at least five years of that contract, he would be more valuable than maggs in right. corner outfielders with power are easy to come by and relatively inexpensive. plus 12.5 mil with money deffered would be a steal if griffey were to put up old numbers.

biggest negative is that if KW bites on the deal and takes griffey and he can't play, KW will not be able to make any efforts at another CF for the length of the contract. a 12.5 mil DH is too much.

oldcomiskey
11-24-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
He was the greatest player in the MLB for an entire decade, that alone is enough.
dont get me wrong--I love Thomas and Griffey as much as the next guy--but unless they---esp. Frank hits 500 HRS they wont go to cooperstown without a ticket

MarkEdward
11-24-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Find a 3rd team to get into this deal, one that is willing to take on Griffey and you may of found something. If the Sox could get a decent to good pitcher for Griffey (No idea if thats plausible with all he's owed) then I'd say go for it.


If the Reds can find a decent pitcher for Griffey, why wouldn't they make the trade with that team on their own?

The Reds are in dire need of pitching.

Deadguy
11-24-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
dont get me wrong--I love Thomas and Griffey as much as the next guy--but unless they---esp. Frank hits 500 HRS they wont go to cooperstown without a ticket

What the hell are you talking about?

Thomas and Griffey don't have to be Jimmie Foxx, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, or Hank Aaron to make it to the HOF.

All they have to do is be as good as guys like Hack Wilson, Chuck Klein, Jimmie Collins, Johnny Mize, Hank Greenburg, Larry Doby, Rick Ferrell, Lloyd Waner, Tommy Mccarthy, Fred Lindstrom, Ross Youngs, and George Kelly.

Thomas and Griffey have arguably higher peak and career values than most if not all of the above players, and plenty of others that I didn't mention.

Both Thomas and Griffey are locks to get in via the Veteran's Committee, at the very least. The only question really should be whether or not they are 1st ballot HOFers.

doublem23
11-24-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
dont get me wrong--I love Thomas and Griffey as much as the next guy--but unless they---esp. Frank hits 500 HRS they wont go to cooperstown without a ticket

I haven't looked over the numbers for Griffey, but Frank Thomas has easily earned a bid to the Hall of Fame... It's almost ridiculous how much debate there is about it.

munchman33
11-24-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
What the hell are you talking about?

Thomas and Griffey don't have to be Jimmie Foxx, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, or Hank Aaron to make it to the HOF.

All they have to do is be as good as guys like Hack Wilson, Chuck Klein, Jimmie Collins, Johnny Mize, Hank Greenburg, Larry Doby, Rick Ferrell, Lloyd Waner, Tommy Mccarthy, Fred Lindstrom, Ross Youngs, and George Kelly.

Thomas and Griffey have arguably higher peak and career values than most if not all of the above players, and plenty of others that I didn't mention.

Both Thomas and Griffey are locks to get in via the Veteran's Committee, at the very least. The only question really should be whether or not they are 1st ballot HOFers.

I agree, but there are a lot of guys in the media who hate Frank, as well as others who won't vote for him simply because he was a DH for half his career.

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 09:57 AM
I agree, but there are a lot of guys in the media who hate Frank, as well as others who won't vote for him simply because he was a DH for half his career.

He's in, they're both in.. it's a lock. Don't worry about it. With Frank and Griffey it's not about career numbers, and it's not about media perception... it's about being far and away the greatest hitter and the greatest player in their league for a number of years. When Frank was the greatest hitter for 6-7 years running, he was also a full time 1B. How he has done the past four or five while splitting time between DH/1B is meaningless as far as his HOF credentials go.

Every HR they hit, RBI they drive in, Run they score, etc. is just icing on the cake at this point.

By the way, the recent steroid firestorm should only make people appreciate what these two guys did in the 90's even more.

MisterB
11-25-2003, 10:18 AM
Keep in mind that before Bonds had his 73 homer season there were still a significant number of sports writers who didn't consider him a lock for the HoF. His postseason performance and lack of a WS ring were the most common excuses given. Neither Thomas nor Griffey have a ring (yet) and that will be an issue, as will Thomas' time spent as a DH. I think each one still has to finish their careers strong to be a HoF lock.

wsgdf
11-25-2003, 10:40 AM
Keep in mind that before Bonds had his 73 homer season there were still a significant number of sports writers who didn't consider him a lock for the HoF.

He was a lock as well.

A handful of curmudgeony old sportswriters can't keep the best players of their era out of the hall.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but regardless of how the Mike Norths of the world feel about Thomas, or how a ridiculous idea of a player needing a ring to be in the Hall of Fame in a league with 25 man rosters may still be in the minds of some, these guys are in - as was Bonds well before he hit 73 at the end of his career.

If you needed a ring to get in the Hall - what are all those Cubs and Sox players from the past 80 years doing in there?

ondafarm
11-25-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by wsgdf
A handful of curmudgeony old sportswriters can't keep the best players of their era out of the hall.

Unfortunately, this just isn't true. Nellie Fox, AL MVP in 1959, last year the Sox won the penant was kept out of the HoF for the longest time because of a handful of sportswriters who refused to vote for a guy who didn't hit homers. He also got mauled in the veterans comittee by a certain former teammate and a certain fellow manager. All told, probably ten guys thought he didn't belong, but they were ten key guys (how large is the veterans comittee?) and sportswriters do affect each others votes.

I agree with your main statements though. Griffey, Thomas and Bonds are all locks for HoF. Unless Bonds shows major, major involvement in steroids and even then, he's probably in.

munchman33
11-25-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Unless Bonds shows major, major involvement in steroids and even then, he's probably in.

With his numbers, Bonds could become Micheal Jackson and probably still make the hall.

oldcomiskey
11-25-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by wsgdf
He's in, they're both in.. it's a lock. Don't worry about it. With Frank and Griffey it's not about career numbers, and it's not about media perception... it's about being far and away the greatest hitter and the greatest player in their league for a number of years. When Frank was the greatest hitter for 6-7 years running, he was also a full time 1B. How he has done the past four or five while splitting time between DH/1B is meaningless as far as his HOF credentials go.

Every HR they hit, RBI they drive in, Run they score, etc. is just icing on the cake at this point.

By the way, the recent steroid firestorm should only make people appreciate what these two guys did in the 90's even more.

Is Canseco a hall of famer then--475 Hrs---Im sorry I dont see Canseco as a HOF---Thomas is a DH--sportswriters frown on such things.. Griffey and Frank have to hit 500 Hrs to get in

Jjav829
11-26-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Is Canseco a hall of famer then--475 Hrs---Im sorry I dont see Canseco as a HOF---Thomas is a DH--sportswriters frown on such things.. Griffey and Frank have to hit 500 Hrs to get in

You forget the one thing that sets Griffey apart from Frank. Griffey won 10 straight gold gloves and besides being one of the best offensive players on the 90s, was also one of the best defensive players of the 90s. Griffey is in the HOF. He is 19 HRs shy on your 500 mark. Frank is 82 away from 500. Assuming Frank can stay healthy for 4 more years, he should get over that 500 mark depending on if he has any more years like last year. Griffey, being 19 shy, just needs one healthy year. He had 13 HRs in 53 games last year so projected out, he would be around 40 HRs if healthy. Of course health is Griffey's biggest problem now. But if he can finally for once and for all shake his health problems and doesn't hang em up early, he could/should have a shot at 600.

oldcomiskey
11-27-2003, 10:44 AM
like I said---500 HRS and they are in--otherwise---they aint--especially Frank

PaleHoseGeorge
11-27-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
like I said---500 HRS and they are in--otherwise---they aint--especially Frank

This is the best summation I've seen yet for what makes the HOF a meaningless and hollow honor, to the precise amount any voter is applying the logic above.

Frank goes into the HOF based on what he has done already and anybody who can read and compare career statistics already knows this. He ought to be a first-ballot inductee, too, but too many people have too many axes to grind.

I feel an entire "Frank is a clubhouse cancer" tomato award thread about to start.

:gulp:

wsgdf
11-28-2003, 09:37 AM
.. Griffey and Frank have to hit 500 Hrs to get in

I'm sorry but that's just wrong. Career tallies are only meaningful when deciding if above average players who put up above average numbers are on the cusp of getting in - the Palmeiro's and McGriff's of the world really need that 500 home run mark to even have a shot. Baines is an example of a guy who fell short of 3,000 and 500 and therefore will prpbably be left out.

This type of stat thinking DOES NOT APPLY to Frank and Griffey because they were the two if the three (Bonds being the third) best players of a decade.

By the way - I know Griffey had 10 Gold Gloves. His credentials and Frank's credentials are different. They both are locks though. Frank won 2 MVPs and arguably should have won 3 in a row. Frank was statistically THE BEST hitter in baseball for 5-7 years. That alone is enough.

When your peak seasons make you the best in the league over a number of years you are in. Guys like Palmeiro and McGriff were never even CLOSE to being the best hitter in baseball for any amount of time - that's why they need to hit 500 over their career or 3,000 hits to get a shot.

Frank could have retired after his triceps injury and still gotten in. You guys are talking like he's Ron Santo or something.

oldcomiskey
11-28-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This is the best summation I've seen yet for what makes the HOF a meaningless and hollow honor, to the precise amount any voter is applying the logic above.

Frank goes into the HOF based on what he has done already and anybody who can read and compare career statistics already knows this. He ought to be a first-ballot inductee, too, but too many people have too many axes to grind.

I feel an entire "Frank is a clubhouse cancer" tomato award thread about to start.

:gulp:
I agree george, he ought to be--but sportswriters have a thing against DHs--you know this as well as I do--and you never herad me say anything about frank in the clubhouse--and you are right about them watering down the HOF---I never considered Palmeiro to be a HOF.but he does have the needed 500 HR

jabrch
11-28-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
I agree, but there are a lot of guys in the media who hate Frank, as well as others who won't vote for him simply because he was a DH for half his career.

Ahhh the old "Frank-haters" thing again.

Guys, nobody hates Frank. Why do you keep saying that?

wsgdf
11-28-2003, 12:03 PM
but sportswriters have a thing against DHs-

When Frank earned the HOF he was a 1B, not a DH. He's been a DH over the past 4 or 5 years - well after his HOF credentials were signed sealed and delivered.

Being a DH in the second half of his career will not keep him out.

Nothing will keep him out.

I hear what you guys are saying about the media supposedly holding a grudge against the guy - but to hold Thomas out of the HOF because of supposed personality conflicts would be beyond ridiculous. He's earned his spot by a wide margin.

oldcomiskey
11-28-2003, 03:20 PM
Frank hasnt earned anything yet---if he goes in it will be because of his lifetime batting average and OBP--I hope Im wrong--but I still say Frank has 2 things going against him---
1. sportswriters will slight him bcause his comments have been so----misunderstood
2. He does not have a post season history--

we all know that sportswritrs are jerks who belive if you dont have 500 HRs or 300 wins if youre a pitcher youre not good enough

now the things that will help Frank will be the same things that helped people like Carlton Fisk--who obviously didnt hit 500 HRs--but was one of the top players in his era...

I hope Frank hits 500+ so all this will be a moot point

munchman33
11-29-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by wsgdf
- but to hold Thomas out of the HOF because of supposed personality conflicts would be beyond ridiculous.

I don't disagree that it would be ridiculous. But that still doesn't mean they won't do it. The HOF voters have left out a lot of deserving guys, and seeing Frank miss the Hall, which would anger me greatly, wouldn't surprise me in the least bit.

savafan
12-01-2003, 01:45 PM
Hey all, Cincinnati guy here.

I've heard this rumor as well, but as far as if it's actually being discussed or not, I can't say.

Having said that, I think the Sox would be getting hosed on this deal.

Griffey is healthy, and training in Florida now.

Casey is a very good clubhouse guy and a leader, but his offensive stats aren't that impressive. Yes, he'll hit for average, but his OBP and SLG are way mediocre for a first baseman. Still, he could improve.

Both Griffey and Casey's contracts are albatrosses to the Reds.

I would love to see Griffey play a full season in Cincinnati at least once.

Rocky Soprano
12-01-2003, 01:59 PM
Welcome!

Please keep Griffey! :D:

savafan
12-01-2003, 06:56 PM
I hope we do. Many Redsfans believe that this is just a made up rumor.

nasox
12-01-2003, 11:51 PM
Frank has two MVPs (i dont care if one was from a shortened season- a MVP is a MVP). How can somebody who one the MVP award more than once not get into the hall? Despite this, it won't eb immediately- his vote will take time.

RichH55
12-02-2003, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by savafan
Hey all, Cincinnati guy here.

I've heard this rumor as well, but as far as if it's actually being discussed or not, I can't say.

Having said that, I think the Sox would be getting hosed on this deal.

Griffey is healthy, and training in Florida now.

Casey is a very good clubhouse guy and a leader, but his offensive stats aren't that impressive. Yes, he'll hit for average, but his OBP and SLG are way mediocre for a first baseman. Still, he could improve.

Both Griffey and Casey's contracts are albatrosses to the Reds.

I would love to see Griffey play a full season in Cincinnati at least once.


Casey is in the last year of his deal....not exactly cost efficient, but not exactly an albatross either

Greg1983
12-02-2003, 07:06 AM
If our Cincinnati fan comes back, I'd like to know how he would describe Casey as a "situational hitter." I'm not even sure if there's a statistical measure for this, there's just a gut reaction you sometimes get when a guy comes up with RISP or needing to move a runner over. You just knew, for example, that Ivan Rodriguez was going to get the job done no matter what last October.

I just know I would gladly trade away some power for someone who could give us timely hitting. But I wouldn't include Maggs in that list because I think, in general, he's one of the best situational hitters we have. Het let me down more than once last year, but so did everyone else.

just a thought...

savafan
12-02-2003, 02:38 PM
I would describe Casey best as a Hal Morris clone. He'll give you a lot of hits, but they're mostly singles when no one is on base. In clutch situations, I'd say he's gotta be at or near the bottom of the list in 1st baseman leaguewide.

And Casey has two more years remaining on his contract, 6.8 million next year, and 7.8 million in 2005.

savafan
12-02-2003, 03:04 PM
For those who are interested, Sean Casey is going to be on 1360 Homer, Cincinnati radio today at 5:20 EST. No idea what he's going to talk about, but you can listen online here:

http://www.wcky.com/main.html

Sorry, wrong link first time.