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View Full Version : Sox/Mets trade Vetoed


Jjav829
11-23-2003, 08:21 AM
Fred Wilpon vetoed a trade of Koch for David Weathers after it was agreed upon by both teams.

When he hired him, Fred Wilpon said Duquette would have as much authority as any GM in baseball, interesting considering it was either him or his son, Jeff, who recently vetoed Duquette's proposed trade of setup reliever David Weathers to the White Sox for Billy Koch, according to an official familiar with the situation.

Manager Art Howe and pitching coach Rick Peterson were also in support of the trade, which would have made Koch the Mets closer for a little less than an extra $3 million. Koch will make $6.375 million next year and Weathers will make $3.6 million.

There's still a decent chance the Mets will wind up with Koch, but the move just goes to show how involved the Wilpons are in every decision. Full article (It's at the bottom) (http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/rocca/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1069570505290190.xml)

ondafarm
11-23-2003, 08:30 AM
Trading a veteran relief pitcher after judging by ones season is just plain stupid. Koch performed exceptionally in Oakland. What went wrong here? I don't know, but I also know that Jerry Manuel was too dumb to figure out how to use him well or fix what was wrong. Letting him go for a middle relief yo-yo who makes $3.6 million is paying twice for Koch and just plain not bright. Its clasic buy high, sell low mentality.

idseer
11-23-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Trading a veteran relief pitcher after judging by ones season is just plain stupid. Koch performed exceptionally in Oakland. What went wrong here? I don't know, but I also know that Jerry Manuel was too dumb to figure out how to use him well or fix what was wrong. Letting him go for a middle relief yo-yo who makes $3.6 million is paying twice for Koch and just plain not bright. Its clasic buy high, sell low mentality.

and if they know a little more about koch's physical condition than you do ..... ?

soxtalker
11-23-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Trading a veteran relief pitcher after judging by ones season is just plain stupid. Koch performed exceptionally in Oakland. What went wrong here? I don't know, but I also know that Jerry Manuel was too dumb to figure out how to use him well or fix what was wrong. Letting him go for a middle relief yo-yo who makes $3.6 million is paying twice for Koch and just plain not bright. Its clasic buy high, sell low mentality.

I often disagree with fans on this board who want to "buy high, sell low". However, I don't think that Koch quite falls into this category. First, he has lost velocity. There's a chance that he'll regain it, but there's also a chance that he won't. (I'm assuming that the Sox would share any medical info with the Mets, after KW went through the Sikonia/Wells deal.) That represents considerable risk at signficant cost. They probably felt that this deal would allow them to move Marte to the closer position with Weathers filling in the set-up role that Marte covered. So, they would have reduced their risk and saved budget.

RibbieRubarb
11-23-2003, 09:43 AM
Who the hell is Sikonia??

RedPinStripes
11-23-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I often disagree with fans on this board who want to "buy high, sell low". However, I don't think that Koch quite falls into this category. First, he has lost velocity. There's a chance that he'll regain it, but there's also a chance that he won't. (I'm assuming that the Sox would share any medical info with the Mets, after KW went through the Sikonia/Wells deal.) That represents considerable risk at signficant cost. They probably felt that this deal would allow them to move Marte to the closer position with Weathers filling in the set-up role that Marte covered. So, they would have reduced their risk and saved budget.

Koch was no champion in Oakland. If you talk to A's fans, they were more frustrated and he scared the **** out of them more then Foluke used to have us biting our nails. He's a thrower, not a pitcher. There are a **** load of guys who can hit a 100 mph straight fast ball if they know it's coming. Ask A.J. Perzinski.

And this is the "great mind set of Koch." If Koch gives up a hit or hr with a 100mph fast ball, he's gonna try to throw the next pitch 102. Now someone please tell me how valuable Koch is.

soxtalker
11-23-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Koch was no champion in Oakland. If you talk to A's fans, they were more frustrated and he scared the **** out of them more then Foluke used to have us biting our nails. He's a thrower, not a pitcher. There are a **** load of guys who can hit a 100 mph straight fast ball if they know it's coming. Ask A.J. Perzinski.

And this is the "great mind set of Koch." If Koch gives up a hit or hr with a 100mph fast ball, he's gonna try to throw the next pitch 102. Now someone please tell me how valuable Koch is.

Actually, I do remember that (even if I didn't remember the spelling of Sirotka, as RibbieRuburb pointed out), and, in fact, at the time of the trade, I was quite nervous. However, I'm assuming that the Sox have not changed their overall philosophy regarding the trade; the Sox organization seems to value velocity in their pitchers. Even assuming that Koch still has potential to be a great pitcher, the Sox move makes sense.

gosox41
11-23-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Trading a veteran relief pitcher after judging by ones season is just plain stupid. Koch performed exceptionally in Oakland. What went wrong here? I don't know, but I also know that Jerry Manuel was too dumb to figure out how to use him well or fix what was wrong. Letting him go for a middle relief yo-yo who makes $3.6 million is paying twice for Koch and just plain not bright. Its clasic buy high, sell low mentality.

Koch is highly overated, even with Oakland. Other then the overrated save statistic, what is so "exceptional" about him?

Bob

RedPinStripes
11-23-2003, 11:08 AM
Ship his ass out. Koch for a minor leaguer is fine by me.

ExSoxFan
11-23-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by RibbieRubarb
Who the hell is Sikonia??

I think he meant Sirotka.

And I don't want to wait and see about Koch - if the Sox can deal him before he has a chance to prove that his arm is shot, then they should.
Minor-leaguer in return would be OK by me - clear payroll and try to get a good player.

oheeoh...magglio
11-23-2003, 11:52 AM
Just about any trade that involves Koch or Konerko leaving is a good idea in my mind. Too bad this one was vetoed.

TheRockinMT
11-23-2003, 11:53 AM
I think that Manuel and his inept handling of the relief corp have been well documented for at least the last two years. He overreacted with the problems Keith Foulke was having and obviously lost confidence in the closer, which in turn blew Foulke's confidence. The same thing happended with Koch, but I think BK's problems go back to his overuse in Oakland. He is at the point that I am not sure he will recover his pre-2003 form.

CubKilla
11-23-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
If Koch gives up a hit or hr with a 100mph fast ball, he's gonna try to throw the next pitch 102. Now someone please tell me how valuable Koch is.

Actually..... Botch was throwing 93 MPH "heaters" with the White Sox and, when one of those laser guided "heaters" found the seats or the OF wall, he'd go to his offspeed junk, fall behind, then have to showcase that 93 MPH meatball again.

I didn't like this trade from day one. I'd trade Botch at all costs. He's useless on the Sox roster..... especially if he cannot magically regain his velocity.

Soxfest
11-23-2003, 12:47 PM
David Weathers is horrid , I know they want Koch gone but Weathers ..Please

RedPinStripes
11-23-2003, 12:59 PM
Trade him for a 10 year veteran beer man and stick him in the bleachers! :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

MikeKreevich
11-23-2003, 01:14 PM
I hope Belly Koch hits the weight room this off season, because he needs to get in shape. Loose a couple of inches off the gut and strengthen the legs and maybe he can hit three digits again.

WinningUgly!
11-23-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
David Weathers is horrid , I know they want Koch gone but Weathers ..Please
I'll take David Weathers & his horrid 2.80 era over the last 3 seasons in our pen any day of the week. He's not closer material, but I doubt the Sox were/are looking to use him in that role anyway. This team is dangerously short on established, quality right handed pitching in the pen. David Weathers is a solid right handed groundball pitcher, that strikes out about twice as many as he walks. You don't like the idea of filling that need & cutting $3 Million at the same time, by unloading Billy Koch? Hell, I'd be happy getting Carl Weathers for him at this point. :D:

Palehose13
11-23-2003, 01:50 PM
Agreed, Koch and his salary have to go. I'd prefer Weathers over Cedeno. We have no need for Cedeno, but we could use Weathers. Any chance of this going through after the veto? If not, are the Mets going to offer someone else now? It seems as if they really want Koch. IMHO, they can take him.

Frank the Tank
11-23-2003, 02:39 PM
Not only was Koch overrated, but I think the closer position in general is overrated. I hope the sox never again invest big money in a player that is only meant to pitch 1 inning on a given night.

WinningUgly!
11-23-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
Not only was Koch overrated, but I think the closer position in general is overrated. I hope the sox never again invest big money in a player that is only meant to pitch 1 inning on a given night.
AMEN!!!
You should be able to develop closers through your minor league system. Giving up anything significant via trade or throwing big money at free agent closers is stoopid.

jeremyb1
11-23-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Trading a veteran relief pitcher after judging by ones season is just plain stupid. Koch performed exceptionally in Oakland. What went wrong here? I don't know, but I also know that Jerry Manuel was too dumb to figure out how to use him well or fix what was wrong. Letting him go for a middle relief yo-yo who makes $3.6 million is paying twice for Koch and just plain not bright. Its clasic buy high, sell low mentality.

Yeah, a yo yo that had half the era for half the salary last season.

gosox41
11-24-2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
AMEN!!!
You should be able to develop closers through your minor league system. Giving up anything significant via trade or throwing big money at free agent closers is stoopid.

Do you think KW learned anything about this trade?

Bob

Mammoo
11-24-2003, 09:22 AM
I'd just as soon they hold on to Koch. David Weathers is no great shakes.

doublem23
11-24-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
Not only was Koch overrated, but I think the closer position in general is overrated. I hope the sox never again invest big money in a player that is only meant to pitch 1 inning on a given night.

I think it's more the stat closers pump out is overrated... Oakland does it every year or so... They get a mediocre pitcher, wait until he saves like 40-50 games and dump him on some schmo.

:KW
Mr. Beane, I'll give up whatever you want for that Koch fellow... He's mint.

Randar68
11-24-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Trading a veteran relief pitcher after judging by ones season is just plain stupid. Koch performed exceptionally in Oakland. What went wrong here? I don't know, but I also know that Jerry Manuel was too dumb to figure out how to use him well or fix what was wrong. Letting him go for a middle relief yo-yo who makes $3.6 million is paying twice for Koch and just plain not bright. Its clasic buy high, sell low mentality.

Koch was WAY overused for 3 straight seasons prior to arriving in Chicago. Every time he's been in a big clutch situation with us or Oakland, he's blown it.

On top of that, without taking it easy for a couple seasons, I don't see him ever regaining that velocity. He may get back into the high 90's, but it just doesn't have much movement and he has poor control with any of his secondary pitches. I'd move him, as he's going to be gone after next season anyways. If they can get anything in return and save even 10 cents of salary, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I wish they'd have been able to keep Flash, as he was filthy at the end of last season, but this team has bigger fish to fry on this limited payroll.

nasox
11-24-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Trade him for a 10 year veteran beer man and stick him in the bleachers! :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:


best idea ive heard today!

WinningUgly!
11-24-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Do you think KW learned anything about this trade?

Bob

I certainly hope he did, but I wouldn't bet on it. :o:

jeremyb1
11-24-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
I'd just as soon they hold on to Koch. David Weathers is no great shakes.

Regardless of whether or not he is, I think its safe to say that there's a huge difference between having a dependable setup man and a player relagated to mop up duty because his ERA is over 6. Also, we wouldn't be trading for Weathers, we'd be trading for Weathers and around 3 million dollars we'd free up by dealing Koch. That could be an additional top flight reliever. I'd much rather have Lightenberg and Weathers than Koch.

StillMissOzzie
11-25-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
You don't like the idea of filling that need & cutting $3 Million at the same time, by unloading Billy Koch? Hell, I'd be happy getting Carl Weathers for him at this point. :D:

Amen, brother! LMAO!

Free up the $3 million and give it to someone we want the Sox to keep!

SMO

TaylorStSox
11-25-2003, 02:33 AM
Why does everyone think Weathers is a bum? There's a guy on the north side with similar stuff who isn't flashy either. I wouldn't mind having him.