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JDP
11-23-2003, 02:17 AM
Working in the baseball ranks, one comes across conversations and stories of the baseball past and present alike that are great to hear and pass on. Here's a diddy that was heard in the offices on Friday before shop was being closed up:
----

Imagine a sunny, cloudless, early spring day. There is a slight breeze in the air and the sun is shining down on the ball players who have taken the field. It is April 2, 1931, and the Yankees are coming to the plate. Today, they are playing an exibition game to which they have agreed to play before the full-season kicks off in full swing.

Stepping up to the plate is the legendary Babe Ruth, with Lou Gehrig licking his chops on deck. Fans put all their attention to the game, cutting conversations dead in their tracks, to watch as Babe Ruth steps up to the plate. On the mound is a 17 year old phenom pitcher, Jackie Mitchell, who has just taken the mound to pitch to the immortal Ruth, Gehrig and company.

After four of Jackie's dropball pitches, Ruth is called out on strikes, barely touching the baseball in what seemed four unnatural pitches that were just delivered to the plate. The crowd, always giving a hand to an underdog, gives a loud cheer. Lou Gehrig, a bit wide-eyed at the display this phenom just displayed, approaches the plate as Ruth walks back to the dugout, slowly shaking his head in almost disbelief. Gehrig fares no better, going down on three straight pitches, and takes the same trot back towards the dugout that Ruth had taken just three pitches earlier. Once again, the crowd goes wild. A 17 year old kid had just struck out possible the best back-to-back offensive punch the game of baseball has ever seen -- with just 7 total pitches at that.

Later on after the game is concluded, after this small display of phenominal dominance, Jackie Mitchell is signed by a minor league team, the Chattanooga Lookouts, awaiting a bright future in the big league spotlight. However, a few days later Jackie's professional status is revoked and the contract is deemed null and void. Jackie Mitchell never pitches again and is never heard of again in the professional baseball sense and the baseball world is deprived of perhaps another legend in the making.

Why would such a talented phenom pitcher such as this have such a bright career cut short well before it even started?

Apparently, major league baseball wasn't ready to accept and deal with women playing among the professional ranks, for you see, Jackie Mitchell was a 17 year old female.

=}

awesomefan
11-23-2003, 02:25 AM
Great story!!!! Never heard that one before.

I did hear of a 17 year old or younger guy striking out the same guys just like that. Can't recall his name right now. He did go on to be a good pitcher I think.

I think I read about it in a Ted Williams book. Forgot the name of the book too, but it was a story about Ted Williams' life on & off the field. Very good book.

CubKilla
11-23-2003, 02:25 AM
I'm not denying that the story happened but why is it now, in my 29th year of baseball fandom, that I am just hearing about this? I figure a WOMAN striking out RUTH and GEHRIG consecutively would have been brought up to me by now by someone..... probably a feminist woman defending women in sports when men put women in sports down.

TornLabrum
11-23-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by JDP
Working in the baseball ranks, one comes across conversations and stories of the baseball past and present alike that are great to hear and pass on. Here's a diddy that was heard in the offices on Friday before shop was being closed up:
----

Imagine a sunny, cloudless, early spring day. There is a slight breeze in the air and the sun is shining down on the ball players who have taken the field. It is April 2, 1931, and the Yankees are coming to the plate. Today, they are playing an exibition game to which they have agreed to play before the full-season kicks off in full swing.

Stepping up to the plate is the legendary Babe Ruth, with Lou Gehrig licking his chops on deck. Fans put all their attention to the game, cutting conversations dead in their tracks, to watch as Babe Ruth steps up to the plate. On the mound is a 17 year old phenom pitcher, Jackie Mitchell, who has just taken the mound to pitch to the immortal Ruth, Gehrig and company.

After four of Jackie's dropball pitches, Ruth is called out on strikes, barely touching the baseball in what seemed four unnatural pitches that were just delivered to the plate. The crowd, always giving a hand to an underdog, gives a loud cheer. Lou Gehrig, a bit wide-eyed at the display this phenom just displayed, approaches the plate as Ruth walks back to the dugout, slowly shaking his head in almost disbelief. Gehrig fares no better, going down on three straight pitches, and takes the same trot back towards the dugout that Ruth had taken just three pitches earlier. Once again, the crowd goes wild. A 17 year old kid had just struck out possible the best back-to-back offensive punch the game of baseball has ever seen -- with just 7 total pitches at that.

Later on after the game is concluded, after this small display of phenominal dominance, Jackie Mitchell is signed by a minor league team, the Chattanooga Lookouts, awaiting a bright future in the big league spotlight. However, a few days later Jackie's professional status is revoked and the contract is deemed null and void. Jackie Mitchell never pitches again and is never heard of again in the professional baseball sense and the baseball world is deprived of perhaps another legend in the making.

Why would such a talented phenom pitcher such as this have such a bright career cut short well before it even started?

Apparently, major league baseball wasn't ready to accept and deal with women playing among the professional ranks, for you see, Jackie Mitchell was a 17 year old female.

=}

Sounds like a story Bill Stern would have told on the radio in the '40s.

idseer
11-23-2003, 09:26 AM
totally unbelievable.

there isn't and never has been a woman alive who could pitch from 60 feet with any authority.

now if you're talking about softball pitching from 40 feet or whatever that distance is then it's possible. but the story is couched in terms of a major league game.

i'm not buying.

doublem23
11-23-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I'm not denying that the story happened but why is it now, in my 29th year of baseball fandom, that I am just hearing about this? I figure a WOMAN striking out RUTH and GEHRIG consecutively would have been brought up to me by now by someone..... probably a feminist woman defending women in sports when men put women in sports down.

This is one of the unusual moments when CK and I agree on anything. :smile: There's no way a story like this could have existed for over 70 years now and still be so low on the radar of baseball history.

PaulDrake
11-23-2003, 10:58 AM
Will this convince you? (www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/mitchell.html)

Palehose13
11-23-2003, 11:45 AM
Thanks PaulDrake.

I believe that if there is ever a sport that a woman could "break inot", it is baseball. The purest, nondisctiminating sport. You could be short, tall, skinny, or fat as long as you had a skill that contributes, you could be on the team.

idseer-
Have you ever tried to swing at a fastpitched softball? Baseballl players have and it can be as wicked or more so than a baseball. A woman can pitch form 60'6", but not a "Barbie Doll." Why hasn't it been done? As hard as it is for regular guys to break into the majors, I think the chances are slimer that THE women with skill would stick around long enough. I know, I know...feminist garbage. At least I'm not claiming that a woman could play in the NFL...

idseer
11-23-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Thanks PaulDrake.

I believe that if there is ever a sport that a woman could "break inot", it is baseball. The purest, nondisctiminating sport. You could be short, tall, skinny, or fat as long as you had a skill that contributes, you could be on the team.

idseer-
Have you ever tried to swing at a fastpitched softball? Baseballl players have and it can be as wicked or more so than a baseball. A woman can pitch form 60'6", but not a "Barbie Doll." Why hasn't it been done? As hard as it is for regular guys to break into the majors, I think the chances are slimer that THE women with skill would stick around long enough. I know, I know...feminist garbage. At least I'm not claiming that a woman could play in the NFL...

i DO know how hard it is. i faced 'the man' once (yes, i struck out).
the point is they cannot do it from 60'. do you recall a womens badeball team from a couple years ago called the silver bullets?
they played against aging minor leaguers and semipro teams and lost almost every game. and this with a couple of the fastest women softball pitchers in the game. that last 20 feet makes a whale of a difference.

here's a point. men softball pitchers are faster than women softball pitchers ... right? i wonder why there are no male softball pitchers in the majors????? certainly not because of their sex.

i repeat! women will never pitch in the majors. they aren't built for it.

Palehose13
11-23-2003, 12:20 PM
here's a point. men softball pitchers are faster than women softball pitchers ... right? i wonder why there are no male softball pitchers in the majors????? certainly not because of their sex.

I'm sorry, but I don't get this. Baseball and Softball are two entirely different sports. I don't know what you are suggesting.

Regarding the Silver Bullets, this is from Kim Braatz-Voisard "According to Kim, the biggest obstacle the women of the Silver Bullets had to overcome was making the change from the underhand pitch (and larger ball) of softball. It takes some time to learn to read an overhand pitch. But as they got more familiar with the style and rhythms of baseball, the team's record improved from a dismal 6-44 in their first season to a winning 23-22 in 1997. "

See, I don't think that most people understand that fp softball and baseball are entirely different. In softball the pitch naturally rises, so you have an entirely different swing than a baseball player, who is used to the natural sinking action of a baseball.

They needed time to make the adjustments and did just fine their second year (the did play college teams also).

Ok, so you don't think a woman can pitch (I beg to differ, I know some very large, built women). But what do you think about position players?

ExSoxFan
11-23-2003, 12:29 PM
WOW, she was HOT - hubba hubba!!!!!
:D:

OneDog
11-23-2003, 12:34 PM
ESPN the magazine did an article a few years ago saying that if women were ever going to break into male professional team sports, the first position would be second base. It requires the least arm strength of any position on the field and if the player has a good eye, makes contact, and has decent speed, then there will be a place on the team for her.

In general women are not as physically strong as men. But a very athletic woman might be able to take the place of a guy like Willie Harris.

This argument has some merit, but I have not decided whether or not I completely buy it.

Palehose13
11-23-2003, 12:49 PM
Onedog-
That was exactly the position I was thinking. Heck, most second basemen are not big guys. I know a few women that could probably beat up Willie Harris or Aaron Miles (I used to play rugby) ;)

Guys, forget about your wife or girlfriend. Think about that girl that isn't "hot" and at first glance you think she's a dude. I'm not trying to be a feminist here and saying that baseball should be a "mixed" sport, but I think there are a few women out there that had they had the proper training and played their whole life that they could play ball, and that someday it may happen.

(I would have loved to if I wasn't 5'3", but I know my physical limitations. I had to settle for college softball.)

Johnny Mostil
11-23-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by OneDog
ESPN the magazine did an article a few years ago saying that if women were ever going to break into male professional team sports, the first position would be second base.


Anybody with too much time on their hands might enjoy a fun piece of fiction Garrison Keillor did on this, "What Did We Do Wrong?", first printed in The New Yorker in 1985 and later reprinted (where I first read it) in The Fireside Book of Baseball , 4th edition.

idseer
11-23-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I'm sorry, but I don't get this. Baseball and Softball are two entirely different sports. I don't know what you are suggesting.

Regarding the Silver Bullets, this is from Kim Braatz-Voisard "According to Kim, the biggest obstacle the women of the Silver Bullets had to overcome was making the change from the underhand pitch (and larger ball) of softball. It takes some time to learn to read an overhand pitch. But as they got more familiar with the style and rhythms of baseball, the team's record improved from a dismal 6-44 in their first season to a winning 23-22 in 1997. "

See, I don't think that most people understand that fp softball and baseball are entirely different. In softball the pitch naturally rises, so you have an entirely different swing than a baseball player, who is used to the natural sinking action of a baseball.

They needed time to make the adjustments and did just fine their second year (the did play college teams also).

Ok, so you don't think a woman can pitch (I beg to differ, I know some very large, built women). But what do you think about position players?


what i'm suggesting is a woman will never pitch in the major leagues. they aren't built for it! i don't care how big a woman is.

i wouldn't be as definite about a position player but i would highly doubt it. i would guess a woman MIGHT be a 2nd baseman, not needing much of an arm or quickness but she'd not be much of a hitter in any respect.

this reminds me of the time a woman tried to play with the men in basketball. what was her name? anyway, it turned into such a joke. and she was a superstar in the women's game.
i've played with female basketball stars .. specifically, susan robinson of psu. the fact is she was slow, couldn't handle the slightly bigger basketball as well, wasn't strong and in general would be considered not very good in a pick up game with old men.

but back to my original point. no woman ever struck out babe ruth and lou gehrig throwing from 60.6 feet.

CubKilla
11-23-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
Will this convince you? (www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/mitchell.html)

At least she looks just like I'd picture a woman who plays men's baseball :D: .

Learn something new everyday. The Manon (?) Rheaume of her time.

JDP
11-23-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by idseer
but back to my original point. no woman ever struck out babe ruth and lou gehrig throwing from 60.6 feet.

First, ignoring the sexist remarks and addressing the lack of baseball knowledge, 60.6 inches is not the distance from the rubber to the plate. Perhaps you mean either 60.5 inches or 60 feet, 6 inches. Thanks for playing.

Secondly, Jackie only had one pitch, a wicked, dropping curve ball. Any arguements about "female arm strength" that would prevent such a story from being true are unvalidated. If the story had gone .. "and Jackie Mitchell struck out Ruth and Gehrig with 98 mph fastballs..", then sure, it's most likely, not believeable.

The simple matter of the fact is that none of us were there. Try not to be so analytical and dissecting.

Palehose13
11-23-2003, 01:44 PM
but back to my original point. no woman ever struck out babe ruth and lou gehrig throwing from 60.6 feet.

If you check out the above link, she supposedly did.

I don't understand what you mean by a "woman not being built" to pitch a baseball. I understand basketball and football(more physical sports), and I never said that a woman could play with the men in those sports. However, I think baseball is the purest of all sports and you can be fat, skinny, tall, thin, weak, or strong and still play baseball if you had the talent and played the position that was suited for you.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Palehose13
11-23-2003, 02:23 PM
Idseer-

I thought you might be interested in this:
" In 1998, Ila Borders, a pitcher for the Duluth Dukes, an independent minor league team, became the first woman to win a men's pro game, nailing down a 3-1 victory over the Sioux Falls Canaries. As of August 1998, she has been contacted by two major league organizations. She may turn out to be the first woman to break the gender barrier that has kept major league baseball diamonds the exclusive playgrounds for the boys of summer."

Here is a link with more information about her: Ila Borders Retires (http://www.baseballglory.com/History%20of%20Borders.html)

I know it isn't the majors, but the bump is 60'6" in the minors and college...and she was able to pitch.

idseer
11-23-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by JDP
First, ignoring the sexist remarks and addressing the lack of baseball knowledge, 60.6 inches is not the distance from the rubber to the plate. Perhaps you mean either 60.5 inches or 60 feet, 6 inches. Thanks for playing.

i defy you to point out a sexist remark. let me see the quote.

and you know someone has nothing of value to add when they throw a typo back at you.


Originally posted by JDP

Secondly, Jackie only had one pitch, a wicked, dropping curve ball. Any arguements about "female arm strength" that would prevent such a story from being true are unvalidated. If the story had gone .. "and Jackie Mitchell struck out Ruth and Gehrig with 98 mph fastballs..", then sure, it's most likely, not believeable.

The simple matter of the fact is that none of us were there. Try not to be so analytical and dissecting.

try to not believe everything you read simply because you'd like it to be so.

idseer
11-23-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Idseer-

I thought you might be interested in this:
" In 1998, Ila Borders, a pitcher for the Duluth Dukes, an independent minor league team, became the first woman to win a men's pro game, nailing down a 3-1 victory over the Sioux Falls Canaries. As of August 1998, she has been contacted by two major league organizations. She may turn out to be the first woman to break the gender barrier that has kept major league baseball diamonds the exclusive playgrounds for the boys of summer."

Here is a link with more information about her: Ila Borders Retires (http://www.baseballglory.com/History%20of%20Borders.html)

I know it isn't the majors, but the bump is 60'6" in the minors and college...and she was able to pitch.

actually you're helping to make my point. she had a 9.35 ERA with the Zion Pioneerzz and she was as close as any woman to actually getting into a major league organization. i can almost guarantee tho that this was more for pr purposes than serious. ok, so she beat some canaries once. did you dig to find out what her total record was against men?

let me state that i am as non-sexist a person as you're likely to meet. but i'm not stupid either. men and women are different ... as much as it might pain some people to hear.

oh and by the way, she's not likely to be the first woman to break that barrrier as the link you provided for me was talking about the fact she retired. at age 26! already!

MarqSox
11-23-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by idseer

i repeat! women will never pitch in the majors. they aren't built for it.
You're right on the first part ... women will never pitch in the majors. But it has nothing to do with skill.

A commissioner's decree (not sure which commissioner and what year, sorry) bars affiliated clubs from signing females.

idseer
11-23-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
You're right on the first part ... women will never pitch in the majors. But it has nothing to do with skill.

A commissioner's decree (not sure which commissioner and what year, sorry) bars affiliated clubs from signing females.

no. a drcree can be changed. the difference between male and female athletes won't.

idseer
11-23-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
Will this convince you? (www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/mitchell.html)


no.

after a little digging i found this.

Mitchell was 17, and a real athlete, a lefty. She had done very well in local games against men. Joe Engel, one of the great baseball promoters of the 1930's-1950's decided to use her in an exhibition game between the Lookouts and the Yankees.

Ruth apparently went along with the stunt, and did not swing at any of the four pitches she threw him. He then made a point to pout and shout at the umpire and slammed his bat against the dugout. Gehrig struck out swinging on three pitches, and did not say a word. She walked Tony Lazzeri, but did get him to foul off a pitch. She was then taken out of the game.

Kennesaw Mountain Landis was less than happy about the stunt, and revoked Mitchell's contract and decreed that women could not and would not be a part of MLB.

She became a member of a barnstorming team, The House of David, and pitched for them, usually one or two innings a day. She even wore a big beard to look like "one of the guys." She did manage to get Leo Durocher to pop up in an exhibition game in St. Louis. Her "record" against men's teams overall was 60-40, (but who knows how it was calculated?). Her teammates on this team of barnstormers were Grover Cleveland Alexander, Dazzy Vance ( who taught her a great deal about pitching, she said), Pepper Martin.

Later on in her life, she was able to travel with Babe Didrickson Zaharias and other women athletes.


of course there's no way to prove anything here. just use your best judgement.

as for me .... i still don't buy it.

JDP
11-23-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by idseer
try to not believe everything you read simply because you'd like it to be so.

I didn't read it anywhere, thanks.

idseer
11-23-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by JDP
I didn't read it anywhere, thanks.

huh? if you didn't read it yourself then i'm at a loss. where did you get the story? after all, you did start this thread.

JDP
11-23-2003, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by idseer
huh? if you didn't read it yourself then i'm at a loss. where did you get the story? after all, you did start this thread.

You tell me. You supposedly read the thread that I started. Did I mention that I had read it or heard it around the office?

idseer
11-23-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by JDP
You tell me. You supposedly read the thread that I started. Did I mention that I had read it or heard it around the office?

does it matter? i don't get your point jdp. you either read or heard the story. my remark is appropriate in either case.
instead of trying to cloud the issue, why not reply to the points i made?

PaulDrake
11-23-2003, 08:04 PM
My only point was that she existed and was a legitimate athlete. By the way, the House of David baseball team played at a very high level. They were quite an interesting bunch of characters too.

In case anyone is interested (www.maryscityofdavid.org/html/baseball.html)

idseer
11-23-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
My only point was that she existed and was a legitimate athlete. By the way, the House of David baseball team played at a very high level. They were quite an interesting bunch of characters too.

In case anyone is interested (www.maryscityofdavid.org/html/baseball.html)

for sure she did exist.
among the articles i read one said that she left the h.o.d. team because she had to play while on a donkey for one inning. i don't know how high the level of play was , but you're right about the 'interesting bunch of characters' remark.
:smile:

JDP
11-23-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by idseer
does it matter? i don't get your point jdp. you either read or heard the story. my remark is appropriate in either case. instead of trying to cloud the issue, why not reply to the points i made?

I fully believe that you didn't get the point -- that is well observed. What issue am I clouding and what "points" did you make that am I supposed to take into consideration and deem valid?

MarqSox
11-23-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by idseer
no. a drcree can be changed. the difference between male and female athletes won't.
Perhaps you're right. Either way, from Exploratorium.edu ...
In June of 1952, shortstop Eleanor Engle signed a minor league contract with the AA Harrisburg Senators. George Trautman, head of the minor leagues, voided the contract two days later, declaring that "such travesties will not be tolerated." On June 23, 1952, organized baseball formally banned women from the minor leagues. It is a ban that is still in effect in 2003.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/baseball/girls_3.html

JDP
11-23-2003, 11:28 PM
I'm surprised bras weren't burned in the 70s in protests against that.

Palehose13
11-24-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by idseer
actually you're helping to make my point. she had a 9.35 ERA with the Zion Pioneerzz and she was as close as any woman to actually getting into a major league organization. i can almost guarantee tho that this was more for pr purposes than serious. ok, so she beat some canaries once. did you dig to find out what her total record was against men?

She played a total of 5 games with the Pioneerzz. Did you read the whole article? I think you missed this: "Bordersí career calls for more than passing references to a high ERA over five games and a fielding error. One could also have mentioned her twelve scoreless innings during the 1998 season for the Duluth-Superior Dukes of the Northern League. Her 1.67 ERA for Madison in 1999. The fact that she was the first woman ever to earn a baseball scholarship (Southern California College, 1993) and to win a menís college game: 12-1."

PR purposes??? I've never heard of her before? Have you? If this was a PR stunt how come the whole country isn't aware of her. Another quote from the article:
"Borders endured not just the physical grind of playing baseball day after day but the emotional grind of being the only one of her kind on the field, explaining time and again, ďI wasnít out to prove womenís rights or anything. I love baseball. Ask a guy if heís doing it to prove menís rights. Heíll say heís doing it because he loves the game.Ē
Is it insane to think that a woman plays not for PR purposes, but because she actually LOVES the game? Or are women not emotionally equipped to love a sport?

let me state that i am as non-sexist a person as you're likely to meet. but i'm not stupid either. men and women are different ... as much as it might pain some people to hear.
I know a few men who disagree with you. I think it pains you to think that a woman could actually play baseball.

oh and by the way, she's not likely to be the first woman to break that barrrier as the link you provided for me was talking about the fact she retired. at age 26! already!

Um...I know that. That is why I titled the link "Ila Borders Retires". I wasn't saying that she was going to go to the majors, but pointing out that you are wrong and a woman CAN pitch a baseball form 60'5". I mean, wasn't that what you were arguing in the first place...that a woman can't do it?
there isn't and never has been a woman alive who could pitch from 60 feet with any authority.
She could and she did.

One more thing...she played pro ball til she was 26. Don't a lot of guys realize at some point that they aren't going to make it to the bigs and move on? Maybe you missed this part of the article too:
"She began as a pony-tailed kid who lived for the next ball game and dreamed of making it to the major leagues. It didnít happen, just as it doesnít happen for 97 or 98 percent of the men who sign professional baseball contracts."

Could you read the entire article next time instead of the first few sentences? It looks to me like you read only what you wanted to...

MarkEdward
11-24-2003, 01:35 PM
If a woman ever does make it to the majors (which will probably happen, someday), I tend to think that she'd be a knuckleball pitcher. To be a knuckleballer, you don't need to throw with much "authority." Just toss it and hope the wind currents do some nifty tricks on the ball. Either a knuckleballer or a "crafty" lefty, like Jamie Moyer.

Baseball needs more knuckleball pitchers. Heck, the Sox need more knuckleball pitchers. Maybe Kenny can give Jared Fernandez an NRI for next year...

Tekijawa
11-24-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Onedog-
That was exactly the position I was thinking. Heck, most second basemen are not big guys. I know a few women that could probably beat up Willie Harris or Aaron Miles (I used to play rugby) ;)

Guys, forget about your wife or girlfriend. Think about that girl that isn't "hot" and at first glance you think she's a dude. I'm not trying to be a feminist here and saying that baseball should be a "mixed" sport, but I think there are a few women out there that had they had the proper training and played their whole life that they could play ball, and that someday it may happen.

(I would have loved to if I wasn't 5'3", but I know my physical limitations. I had to settle for college softball.)


MARLA HOOCH what an Arm....

Didn't she play 2nd base in "A League of their own"?

http://ecards.heavystorm.com/cards/Personalities/Celebrity/Actresses/MeganCavanagh/1.html

Palehose13
11-24-2003, 01:40 PM
I agree 100%. I definitely don't think that a woman is going to throw 100 mph, but a lot of guys can't do that either...

Yes, baseball definitely needs more knuckleballers. Is Hough available?

miker
11-24-2003, 03:21 PM
Is Al Campanis trolling this board? :D:

OneDog
11-24-2003, 03:21 PM
A knuckleball is a very difficult pitch to master. That's why good knuckleballers are few and far between. It's very difficult to try to push a ball 60 feet with your fingertips. Knuckleballers need very strong hands in order to pull that pitch off effectively.

idseer
11-24-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
She played a total of 5 games with the Pioneerzz. Did you read the whole article? I think you missed this: "Bordersí career calls for more than passing references to a high ERA over five games and a fielding error. One could also have mentioned her twelve scoreless innings during the 1998 season for the Duluth-Superior Dukes of the Northern League. Her 1.67 ERA for Madison in 1999. The fact that she was the first woman ever to earn a baseball scholarship (Southern California College, 1993) and to win a menís college game: 12-1."

yes i read the whole article. please provide me with a link that shows her lifetime stats anywhere. cause i couldn't find em.l

Originally posted by Palehose13

PR purposes??? I've never heard of her before? Have you? If this was a PR stunt how come the whole country isn't aware of her. Another quote from the article:
"Borders endured not just the physical grind of playing baseball day after day but the emotional grind of being the only one of her kind on the field, explaining time and again, ďI wasnít out to prove womenís rights or anything. I love baseball. Ask a guy if heís doing it to prove menís rights. Heíll say heís doing it because he loves the game.Ē
Is it insane to think that a woman plays not for PR purposes, but because she actually LOVES the game? Or are women not emotionally equipped to love a sport

you're kidding me with this right?
first of all not all publicity stunts or pr moves are meant for national consumption. is it beyond your belief that this team did this to perhaps spur some business among the female population in duluth and to everyone as an oddity? and while SHE may not have had pr on her mind doesn't mean the team didn't ... does it?
as to her love of the game ... geez, i never said anything about that. i'm sure she DID love it.

Originally posted by Palehose13
I think it pains you to think that a woman could actually play baseball.

you may think whatever you like about something you don't know. it doesn't bother me.


in answer to my point "she's not likely to be the first woman to break that barrrier as the link you provided for me was talking about the fact she retired" you reply
Originally posted by Palehose13
Um...I know that. That is why I titled the link "Ila Borders Retires". I wasn't saying that she was going to go to the majors, but pointing out that you are wrong and a woman CAN pitch a baseball form 60'5". I mean, wasn't that what you were arguing in the first place...that a woman can't do it? .

um ... what you SAID was ... "She may turn out to be the first woman to break the gender barrier that has kept major league baseball diamonds the exclusive playgrounds for the boys of summer." you tell ME how she does that if she's retired.

go reread your own post. the only reason it was titled "Ila Borders Retires" was because that was the title! otherwise why would you have made the above statement?


Originally posted by Palehose13
One more thing...she played pro ball til she was 26. Don't a lot of guys realize at some point that they aren't going to make it to the bigs and move on? Maybe you missed this part of the article too:
"She began as a pony-tailed kid who lived for the next ball game and dreamed of making it to the major leagues. It didnít happen, just as it doesnít happen for 97 or 98 percent of the men who sign professional baseball contracts."

Could you read the entire article next time instead of the first few sentences? It looks to me like you read only what you wanted to...

non-sequitur. men retiring early has nothing to do with women being able to make it. how about if you switched the argument to football? you could make the same claim!

and again, i read the whole thing.


i want to simply say one more thing. i really didn't intend to get into a big argument about this. i was just stating my opinion ... FIRST, about jackie mitchell's publicity stunt that clearly, imo, was twisted to appear as a real serious event. i think i found enough evidence to show otherwise.
SECOND, the belief that i have that a woman will never be a pitcher in the major leagues. if it WERE to happen i believe it would ALSO be a pulicity stunt.

i didn't mean to ruffle all those feathers out there by appearing to be politically incorrect. in all the important ways i am a firm believer that women are not superior to nor inferior to men.
just different.

and lastly ... it wouldn't bother me in the least if a woman somehow came to play in the bigs. i just don't believe it will ever happen. not without major changes to the game.

lets be friends ... ok? :smile:

minastirith67
11-24-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by OneDog
ESPN the magazine did an article a few years ago saying that if women were ever going to break into male professional team sports, the first position would be second base. It requires the least arm strength of any position on the field and if the player has a good eye, makes contact, and has decent speed, then there will be a place on the team for her.

In general women are not as physically strong as men. But a very athletic woman might be able to take the place of a guy like Willie Harris.

This argument has some merit, but I have not decided whether or not I completely buy it.


Poor Willie... :(: