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joepoe
11-21-2003, 09:08 AM
Some of you old timers will appreciate this team, a personal favorite of mine. You hear a lot about the 1917, 1919, 1959 and the 1967 heartbreak, but not much about this great team.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1964.shtml

I was 13 at the time, and my interest in baseball was intense. The Sox were in a great pennant race all year. In fact, they were six games out on June 23rd, then won 18 of 23 to move into first, and were in first place as late as Sept 16th, but were eliminated on the next to the last day of the season. They finished in second (again) behind the Yankees with a 98 and 64 record, the most wins since 1917 at the time. Their finish was all the more amazing considering they lost their first ten meetings against the Yankees that year.

They were led by "Pistol" Pete Ward, Floyd Robinson and Ron Hansen. Dave Nicholson showed promise as a slugger. Moose Skowron, Joe Cunningham, Jim Landis, SMokey Burgess and Minnie Minoso were in the twighlight of great careers. Ken Berry was up for a cup of coffee. What a pitching staff. Gary Peters, Juan Pizarro, Joel Horlen and Hoyt Wilhelm.

DrCrawdad
11-21-2003, 09:30 AM
Ah, 1964...I remember absolutely nothing about the season. Although I was ther for at least one game that season, August 25 when the Sox beat Minnesota 1-0. The only problem, I couldn't see much on August 25 since it was the day before I was born.

I picked up a 1964 players guide a couple years ago. That's my favorite bit of Sox stuff.

The Sox won 98 games in 1964 and didn't finish in first. The Sox have won 90+ games several times and NOT finished in first. By comparison, the Cubbies have had that happen once - 1969 IIRC.

Who's cursed?

davenicholson
11-21-2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by joepoe
Some of you old timers will appreciate this team, a personal favorite of mine. You hear a lot about the 1917, 1919, 1959 and the 1967 heartbreak, but not much about this great team.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/1964.shtml


Dave Nicholson showed promise as a slugger.

Joe,
I love flashing back to those years! I was 7 in 1964, and I rabidly followed most of the games either on TV, radio or joy of joys, in person with my Dad. I've posted before that I was one of those geeky kids who occasionally kept score while watching the game on TV! :o:

But you must admit, my namesake stunk. He did have a nice strkeout record going there for awhile, though!

idseer
11-21-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by joepoe


They were led by "Pistol" Pete Ward, Floyd Robinson and Ron Hansen. Dave Nicholson showed promise as a slugger. Moose Skowron, Joe Cunningham, Jim Landis, SMokey Burgess and Minnie Minoso were in the twighlight of great careers. Ken Berry was up for a cup of coffee. What a pitching staff. Gary Peters, Juan Pizarro, Joel Horlen and Hoyt Wilhelm.

dave nicholson was ALSO in the twilight of his career. he just didn't know it. i was very divided about that team. as you said it was comprised of a lot of old guys (throw in gene stevens and charlie maxwell) who made names with other teams and i hated ron hansen ... simply because he took over looie's old job. jc martin was one of the worst sox catchers in history. and floyd robinson was the only hitter on the team (he, landis and hershberger made for a pretty sorry outfield hitting-wise).

but the pitching! now THAT was another story.

Procol Harum
11-21-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by idseer
dave nicholson was ALSO in the twilight of his career. he just didn't know it.

:D: :D: That's a different way of looking at it! I guess we could say that about a lot of guys who come to the Bigs and find out at 26 that their pinnacle came in college or in Triple A.

At any rate, the team of the '63-'67 Sox were my childhood "Boys of Summer." Man, if only Veeck wouldn't have gutted the team of young talent in 1960 and we could've managed to keep Johnny Callison in right, the late Earl Battey behind the plate, and Norm Cash over at first, we probably would've had some World Series to talk about. Alas.....

By the by, several years ago a friend of mine who was a Phillies fan and I played a re-match of the "Series That Never Was" on one of the early PC computer baseball games, pitting the '64-1-game-behind-the-Yankees White Sox against the '64-blew-the-pennant-in-the-last-ten-games Phillies. Sox won the series 4-3. If only, if only....

wilburaga
11-21-2003, 10:38 AM
Joe:

If we hadn't lost our first 10 games to the Yankees that season things might have been different. Well, we'll always have the August four game sweep of the Yanks in Chicago punctuated by Phil Linz' entree into the music world.


Wilbur

Paulwny
11-21-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by wilburaga
Joe:

If we hadn't lost our first 10 games to the Yankees that season things might have been different. Well, we'll always have the August four game sweep of the Yanks in Chicago punctuated by Phil Linz' entree into the music world.


Wilbur


In case any is wondering about the reference to Phil Linz, from the Baseball Library;

FROM THE BASEBALL CHRONOLOGY

August 20, 1964: On the New York team bus following a 50 White Sox win, Phil Linz begins to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on his harmonica. Manager Yogi Berra orders Linz to stop, then slaps the instrument out of his hands when he continues playing. The incident is reported as indicating dissension on the club and Berra's lack of control, as well as the level of Linz's humor.

PaulDrake
11-21-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by wilburaga
Joe:

If we hadn't lost our first 10 games to the Yankees that season things might have been different. Well, we'll always have the August four game sweep of the Yanks in Chicago punctuated by Phil Linz' entree into the music world.


Wilbur That was August 17-20 at old Comiskey. John Buzhardt completed the sweep with a shutout, and on the bus ride to the airport Phil Linz pulled out his harmonica and started to play "mary had a little lamb." Yogi Berra objected and the two had brief fisticuffs. It was a great time. The Sox really owed the Yanks for all the damage they had done to them down through the years, but unfortunately they finished one game out, the Orioles two. The Phillies did the worst choke in MLB history and blew a 6 or 7 game lead with 12 to play. The Cards won the pennant on the last day of the season. What great pennant races they had in both leagues. In 65 the Sox started out 23-8 and looked on their way. I can still see the headline on the back page of the Sun Times "Sox Riding High" . Injuries and weak hitting began to take their toll, and the Twins captured the pennant. I really thought the Sox would win it in 65 after coming so close the previous year. The Yanks were not a major factor that year and the last time that happened the Sox won in 59. But as most of you know for sure, such is the life of a Sox fan. 63-64-65 was the holy grail for me as a young kid, so close yet so far.

Mammoo
11-21-2003, 11:33 AM
Those were the days! :smile:

...when ballplayers and the game were something to be proud of. A time when you could latch on to your heroes. I was twelve at the time. I remember my brothers and I going to games with my Father.

The bus trips from Universal Liquors in Mt. Greenwood were the best. There was a huge galvanized tub filled with ice , beer and pop on the floor of the bus (Schlitz, Old Style, etc.). When the bus would arrive at the park, the adults would stash as many beers on the kids as we could carry.

Ah, memories!!! :gulp:

PaulDrake
11-21-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
In case any is wondering about the reference to Phil Linz, from the Baseball Library;

FROM THE BASEBALL CHRONOLOGY

August 20, 1964: On the New York team bus following a 50 White Sox win, Phil Linz begins to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on his harmonica. Manager Yogi Berra orders Linz to stop, then slaps the instrument out of his hands when he continues playing. The incident is reported as indicating dissension on the club and Berra's lack of control, as well as the level of Linz's humor. Sorry I didn't see yours. Didn't mean to be a copy cat about the Phil Linz thing. When I started Wilberaga was the last post.

Lip Man 1
11-21-2003, 01:04 PM
If you fondly remember the 1964 team, be sure to visit White Sox Interactive the week of December 7th. (and if you already haven't, go to the WSI Interviews link on the main page and click on the Gary Peters, Jim Landis and J.C. Martin interviews...)

Lip

Paulwny
11-21-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
Sorry I didn't see yours. Didn't mean to be a copy cat about the Phil Linz thing. When I started Wilberaga was the last post.

No apology necessary, it happens all the time. I've done it many times.

washington
11-21-2003, 02:06 PM
Some impressive pitching stats that year. Team ERA of 2.72, Horlen had a 1.88 ERA in 200+ IP but his record was 13-9.

davenicholson
11-21-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by washington
Some impressive pitching stats that year. Team ERA of 2.72, Horlen had a 1.88 ERA in 200+ IP but his record was 13-9.
So how come whenever I try to simulate the 1964 season with Baseball Mogul 2004 the Sox always sux? :(: Maybe Lopez had something to do with the team's success after all!

PaleHoseGeorge
11-21-2003, 02:21 PM
I can't recall how many times I've replayed the 1967 baseball season with my ancient copy of Baseball for Windows 3.0, but I know the Sox have never finish in the top-half of the American League.

I'm not sure if Eddie Stanky was that good a manager, or I'm simply not playing the computer simulation with refrigerated baseballs like the '67 Sox used.

:)

davenicholson
11-21-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I can't recall how many times I've replayed the 1967 baseball season with my ancient copy of Baseball for Windows 3.0, but I know the Sox have never finish in the top-half of the American League.

I'm not sure if Eddie Stanky was that good a manager, or I'm simply not playing the computer simulation with refrigerated baseballs like the '67 Sox used.

:)
The Brat. I knew that. I hate it when my fingers type faster than my brain works! :(: But yeah, there should be a "cheat mode" like that! BTW, in Baseball Mogul, I noticed that ERAs are much higher in that time period than I recall. Seems like low 4's for team ERA are the norm, and even Peters, Pizarro and Horlen seem to end up with ERAs in the high 3's - low 4's.

wilburaga
11-21-2003, 02:56 PM
That '67 team was a team on its last legs. After going 89-73, the Sox' 17th straight .500+ season, they collapsed in '68, going 67-95, and didn't return to .500 until Chuck Tanner's '72 team.

I think Stanky did a miraculous job in '67 keeping them in it for as long as he did. But the magic was gone in '68. Some unfortunate trades (Tommy Davis, ugh) didn't help.

Lip Man 1
11-21-2003, 05:14 PM
PHG:

By all accounts that I've seen and the players that I spoke with the "frozen baseballs" were only used in 1965.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
11-21-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
PHG:

By all accounts that I've seen and the players that I spoke with the "frozen baseballs" were only used in 1965.

Lip

In his book Ball Four, Jim Bouton quotes former Sox catcher Jerry McNertney as stating Eddie Stanky had the Sox storing baseballs in a cool and damp corner of Comiskey Park. McNertney claimed they had to wipe mildew off the balls and place them in fresh new boxes to fool the umpires.

Stanky was Sox manager from 1966 until mid-1968.

I need a special "cheat mode" for my computer simulation game to make the '67 Sox winners. :smile:

TommyJohn
11-22-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I can't recall how many times I've replayed the 1967 baseball season with my ancient copy of Baseball for Windows 3.0, but I know the Sox have never finish in the top-half of the American League.

I'm not sure if Eddie Stanky was that good a manager, or I'm simply not playing the computer simulation with refrigerated baseballs like the '67 Sox used.

:)

One of the reasons why I eventually gave up and lost interest
in whatifsports.com. It had all the stats for you and could give
you a whole play-by-play, great. It didn't have intangibles,
though; like frozen baseballs, daring plays, players hustling
hard and giving that extra effort or shocking upsets. It was
just straight based-on-the stats analysis. Blah.

Another reason I left was that the majority of people who
used the site and posted on the forums were a bunch of
insufferable jerks.

cwsox
11-22-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by wilburaga
Joe:

If we hadn't lost our first 10 games to the Yankees that season things might have been different. Well, we'll always have the August four game sweep of the Yanks in Chicago punctuated by Phil Linz' entree into the music world.


Wilbur


wilbur!!!!!!

this post is just to say hi!

Wsoxmike59
11-23-2003, 05:02 PM
Great post JoePoe, I enjoyed reading everybody's remembrances of the '64 season. I was born in '59 so I have no real memory of the near miss of '64. I do recall my late father bemoaning the fact that indeed the Yankees had beaten the Sox their first 10 meetings that season, and the Sox lost some of those in the most dramatic fashion sometimes.

David Halberstam wrote a pretty good book about the pennant race of 1964, but it paled in comparison to his earlier work about the season of '49. He concentrated too much on the NL pennant race, and the Sox are given nary a chapter in his book on '64.

I've always enjoyed the Trib's Bob Vanderberg's books on the Go-Go Sox, and have always hoped that he'd tackle the task on writing a book about the '64 & '67 Sox Pennant Races.

joepoe
11-24-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Wsoxmike59
...David Halberstam wrote a pretty good book about the pennant race of 1964, but it paled in comparison to his earlier work about the season of '49. He concentrated too much on the NL pennant race, and the Sox are given nary a chapter in his book on '64....

Such is the lot of the White Sox fan. The embarassing 1969 Cub collapse is legendary and their fans remember it fondly, like the dog they had as a kid. 1964 and 1967 were exciting Sox seasons and battles to the very end, yet those great teams are not the stuff of legends.

Cub fans and their Tulip Mania make me sick.