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gosox41
11-19-2003, 07:34 AM
Every time I think of the 2004 season I get less optimistic. I get this bad feeling that the Sox painted themselves in such a corner financially that we'll be stuck wathing Willie Harris, Aaron Rowand, PK, Valentin and Sandy Alomar/Miguel Olivo in the line up everyday. Have you seen these guys OBP's? I'm certainly not complaining about the payroll, though like everyone else I wish it was higher. I just don't think the Sox spent their money wisely. Unless Lee, Ordonez, and Thomas can each hit .350 it could get ugly fast. There's talk that Roberto won't be back..which may be a good thing since I don't want to over pay for him. But who else can the Sox afford to play 2B that's any good?

The starting pitching is screwed unless they free up money elsewhere to bring in some FA's or make a trade. I'm willing to bet that Loiaza doesn't win more then 17 games next year. Buehrle is good, but he is giving up more hits. I'm still waiting for Garland to make that jump from #3/4 starter to at leat #2. Then who else is there?? Schoneweis??? Yuck. On top of that the Sox need to find someone to ill Colon's shows.

Something has to give with this team. They have too much dead weight which will be hard to move in PK and Koch. They're unlikely to get fair value for Magglio. The most marketable guy on the team is Lee, who finally had a break out year.

The worst part of this is the man running the show is KW. While he made a couple of great moves last season, I still feel he's done more harm then good. Bring in Ozzie is a mistake. Exercising Valentin's option is a bigger mistake....unless KW is smart enough to trade him.

Someone give me a reason to be optimistic about the 2004 White Sox.

Bob

dickallen15
11-19-2003, 07:45 AM
What I don't understand about this payroll issue, is what would they have done had Colon accepted his $12 million a year?

CubKilla
11-19-2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
What I don't understand about this payroll issue, is what would they have done had Colon accepted his $12 million a year?

IMO, the contract offered to Colon was rumored to be so heavily weighted with incentives and deferments that the Sox brass knew he wouldn't accept it.

Procol Harum
11-19-2003, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Someone give me a reason to be optimistic about the 2004 White Sox.

Bob

I'm forming an international commission to study the issue--but don't lose any sleep about our results...

JaylisJP
11-19-2003, 09:33 AM
The Sox might have to do what the Marlins did...which is have some no-name players actually step up and play good baseball. Oh wait, I forgot what team we were talking about. BTW, I love the Sox, but you're right, the optimism is going down the drain. You know Esteban won't win more than 12 games this year, and Buehrle is nothing special...and now those are our top two guys. With Maggs already looking out, as well as CLee, and the rest of the team mostly useless, we'd be lucky to reach .500 this year, if not 3rd in the AL Central of all divisions. Realistically, you all know this is the truth. The Sox don't even believe in themselves, why the heck should we?

doublem23
11-19-2003, 09:42 AM
They'll be fine... Jesus ****ing Christ, you guys... It's Not even Decemeber... Still a lot of moves to be made.

CubKilla
11-19-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
They'll be fine... Jesus ****ing Christ, you guys... It's Not even Decemeber... Still a lot of moves to be made.

True. However, there is a problem when the White Sox are not even mentioned by anyone in regards to acquiring free agents, resigning key players, making significant trades, etc.

Even though I am taking the "wait-and-see" approach, even you have to admit that the outlook seems bleak. Colon..... probably gone. Flash..... good as gone. Wunsch..... might be going. Everett..... gone. Maggs..... being shopped. Lee too.

My finger is on the "panic" button.

surfdudes
11-19-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Someone give me a reason to be optimistic about the 2004 White Sox.Bob

I love this website! everybodies got the razor blades and sleeping pills out and absolutely nothing has happened... Nobody has been traded, there are more free agents than ever in baseball this year, Konerko will rebound next year, Frank is back and healthy. Carlos Lee finally reached the potential that everone had said he had. Was there another DH in baseball that hit more than 40 HRs? Everybody whined about Olivo behind the plate as if we needed another bat in the lineup... I'll take his arm over average any day. He has a bright future.
Marte, future closer? The kid had a good second half and wasn't afraid to come in during pressure situations.
Remember, we can always resign Colon after he realizes the market is depressed. If not , take a look at the FA lists, you will find some great bargains. 1 or two pitchers, a Koch rebound year,
and a suprise player like E Lo. and we are in the thick of it.
Just give us a decent April and May, and we won't have to dig ourselves out of any holes in 04.
Go Chisox

PaulDrake
11-19-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
True. However, there is a problem when the White Sox are not even mentioned by anyone in regards to acquiring free agents, resigning key players, making significant trades, etc.

Even though I am taking the "wait-and-see" approach, even you have to admit that the outlook seems bleak. Colon..... probably gone. Flash..... good as gone. Wunsch..... might be going. Everett..... gone. Maggs..... being shopped. Lee too.

My finger is on the "panic" button. A lot can happen between now and April, and in baseball you can never tell. There are always surprises, one way or another. That being said my finger is close to that damn button too. If things don't break well early for the Sox I think we're looking at a long season.

kittle42
11-19-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by surfdudes
I love this website! everybodies got the razor blades and sleeping pills out and absolutely nothing has happened... Nobody has been traded, there are more free agents than ever in baseball this year, Konerko will rebound next year, Frank is back and healthy. Carlos Lee finally reached the potential that everone had said he had. Was there another DH in baseball that hit more than 40 HRs? Everybody whined about Olivo behind the plate as if we needed another bat in the lineup... I'll take his arm over average any day. He has a bright future.
Marte, future closer? The kid had a good second half and wasn't afraid to come in during pressure situations.
Remember, we can always resign Colon after he realizes the market is depressed. If not , take a look at the FA lists, you will find some great bargains. 1 or two pitchers, a Koch rebound year,
and a suprise player like E Lo. and we are in the thick of it.
Just give us a decent April and May, and we won't have to dig ourselves out of any holes in 04.
Go Chisox

Such optimism....are you sure you aren't just a Cubs/Bears fan in disguise? :smile:

Frank the Tank
11-19-2003, 11:35 AM
This might sound stupid, but I really do have faith in KW. Every year he has been here I've honestly been excited about the upcoming season. Even though some of his deals fail miserably, no one can accuse him of not trying to assemble a championship team. I don't think this year will be any different. KW will create a sense of optimism this year on the south side, I'm sure of it. Have a little faith.........
Oh my God, I sound just like a Cubs fan :(

nasox
11-19-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Someone give me a reason to be optimistic about the 2004 White Sox.


I can't. No matter how optimistic I try and be, its impossible. However, I am not writing off the season and neither should anyone else.

Jurr
11-19-2003, 11:49 AM
I see us picking up one front line pitcher before the season starts. Ponson sounds like a good bet. With that, if we can get a team of scrappy players that can get on base and bat near .300, we can win many games with smoke and mirrors. Throw in a decent year by Frank, Crede, and Caballo, and we could do well.
It all depends on the mindset of the team. You've seen where talent and no mindset get you (2003 Sox) and you've seen where less talent and a good mindset get you (2003 Marlins)...let's be somewhere in between.

akingamongstmen
11-19-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by surfdudes
I love this website! everybodies got the razor blades and sleeping pills out and absolutely nothing has happened... Nobody has been traded, there are more free agents than ever in baseball this year, Konerko will rebound next year, Frank is back and healthy. Carlos Lee finally reached the potential that everone had said he had. Was there another DH in baseball that hit more than 40 HRs? Everybody whined about Olivo behind the plate as if we needed another bat in the lineup... I'll take his arm over average any day. He has a bright future.
Marte, future closer? The kid had a good second half and wasn't afraid to come in during pressure situations.
Remember, we can always resign Colon after he realizes the market is depressed. If not , take a look at the FA lists, you will find some great bargains. 1 or two pitchers, a Koch rebound year,
and a suprise player like E Lo. and we are in the thick of it.
Just give us a decent April and May, and we won't have to dig ourselves out of any holes in 04.
Go Chisox


Amen.

Lip Man 1
11-19-2003, 12:08 PM
Obviously the only way the Sox can get better is by trading for players. They simply can't sign anyone. That means as PHG has stated in the past, that the Sox run the risk of creating more holes trying to fill the current ones.

Simple solution...raise the payroll.

Lip

doublem23
11-19-2003, 12:15 PM
Maybe because I'm not old and crotchety and wholly disillusioned with life, but I am damn optimistic about this season. As dissappointed as I am with Ozzie, he is a firecracker and he was really excited about coming here. Hopefully his passion for the team can rub off on the team... Who's our main competition? Minnesota? Kansas City? I fail to be frightened. Anything can happen. Nothing has been decided yet.

Go Sox.

bobj4400
11-19-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Maybe because I'm not old and crotchety and wholly disillusioned with life, but I am damn optimistic about this season. As dissappointed as I am with Ozzie, he is a firecracker and he was really excited about coming here. Hopefully his passion for the team can rub off on the team... Who's our main competition? Minnesota? Kansas City? I fail to be frightened. Anything can happen. Nothing has been decided yet.

Go Sox.


I am not much older than you, but I think I must be much more crotchety. Barring a miracle this team is going to be extremely average next year. With KW as the GM I dont see this team actually sucking, b/c he always tries to construct a winner, but this season is looking extremely bleak already.

A 55 million dollar payroll is not sufficient to win CONSISTENTLY in today's MLB. Yes, you can catch lightning in a bottle like the Marlins, but this fanbase and this city deserve much more than that from the ownership...

surfdudes
11-19-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
Such optimism....are you sure you aren't just a Cubs/Bears fan in disguise? :smile:

Optimistic, not delusional

RichH55
11-19-2003, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Obviously the only way the Sox can get better is by trading for players. They simply can't sign anyone. That means as PHG has stated in the past, that the Sox run the risk of creating more holes trying to fill the current ones.

Simple solution...raise the payroll.

Lip

Yeah...the trade for colon really opened a ton of holes(especially considering Gordon was an upgrade over Osuna)

gosox41
11-20-2003, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by surfdudes
I love this website! everybodies got the razor blades and sleeping pills out and absolutely nothing has happened... Nobody has been traded, there are more free agents than ever in baseball this year, Konerko will rebound next year, Frank is back and healthy. Carlos Lee finally reached the potential that everone had said he had. Was there another DH in baseball that hit more than 40 HRs? Everybody whined about Olivo behind the plate as if we needed another bat in the lineup... I'll take his arm over average any day. He has a bright future.
Marte, future closer? The kid had a good second half and wasn't afraid to come in during pressure situations.
Remember, we can always resign Colon after he realizes the market is depressed. If not , take a look at the FA lists, you will find some great bargains. 1 or two pitchers, a Koch rebound year,
and a suprise player like E Lo. and we are in the thick of it.
Just give us a decent April and May, and we won't have to dig ourselves out of any holes in 04.
Go Chisox

Do the Sox have the financial flexibility to sign any players? $14 mill is tied up in garbage in Koch and PK. $14 mill is tied up in ORdonez. Basically 1/2 the expected budget is in 3 players and while they're all 3 overpaid, only 1 performs well.


Bob

dooda
11-20-2003, 08:24 AM
There is a long way to go until February. I am willing to wait to find out where the chips are going to fall. My feeling is that JR is serious about holding down payroll again. What options are left open if that is the case?

IMO the Sox have two choices. They can take the money they paid Colon last year and sign some less expensive talent. I'd use the money to resign Graffinino and Wunsch. Make a run at Ponson. Let Robbie and Everett walk. They are both well past their prime. We don't need all-stars on the down-slide. We need people who can make average plays routinely.

I think Koch will rebound. You don't save 30+ games by accident. I think Konerko will rebound. Yes, there still over paid. PK w'll still kill 25 rallies a year, but he'll hit. Last year was an aberation for both of them. Keep Maggs and Lee. Be more agressive on the base paths to stay out of more DPs.

The second choice is to trade Maggs for an average OF or SS and 3 minor league five star prospects. Use the salary difference to sign Ponson. Even better if PK or Koch could be packaged with Maggs. Maybe somebody will be more inclined to take PK or Koch if Maggs is part of the deal.

I love Maggs, but if JR is not going to keep paying him after next year lets get something for him now before he takes a walk. Get prospects, but great ones. Kids that project to be stars, and won't be arbitration eligible for 3 or so years. We'd still have Frank and Caballo to drive in runs.

Just my thoughts on what KW may be thinking .

PaleHoseGeorge
11-20-2003, 08:41 AM
If I'm running the Sox I immediately begin a covert operation to make Paul Konerko and Magglio Ordonez into the finest talent on my team. The trick is to make their value in trade as great as possible.

This is a simple trick with Magglio because he truly is one of the best rightfielders in baseball. My covert operation would be aimed at getting as many bidders as possible so that I can command the maximum value in trade. Magglio will bring the Sox numerous things of real value to the team, both now and for the future. Saving $14 million on payroll opens up new possibilities, too.

Konerko is a tougher project. He still hits lefties, and I would bench his hobbled ass anytime a righty was pitching. By the time Memorial Day rolls around his offensive numbers ought to look pretty good, and the months and months I've spent talking about what a great ballplayer he is would begin to pay dividends. Some dumbass GM who didn't do his homework will offer me something of halfway decent value (like a minor league prospect) and in a flash I would pull the trigger on the deal. That saves another $9 million on payroll and opens even more possiblities.

I guess it is possible to win with a $70 million payroll, but the Sox need to move ballplayers to have any chance at all. Our current payroll is tied up in all the wrong places.

dougs78
11-20-2003, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If I'm running the Sox I immediately begin a covert operation to make Paul Konerko and Magglio Ordonez into the finest talent on my team. The trick is to make their value in trade as great as possible.

Yep, this plan is really the only way for the Sox to go about it (although, I'd put Koch in that mix). As GoSox41 asutely points out, we do have nearly 30 million dollars wrapped up in these 3 players with only minimal production expected from them as a group.

Now, we do need to get talent for these guys, the problem is that no one else is taking on salary either, so I'm becoming pessimistic about this possibility. However, it simply has to be done. Perhaps if PK and Koch can be moved, we can include Valentin and clear 19 million.

Here are the moves I'd hope to make:

1. Konerko and Valentin to the Dodgers for Perez and ???? (someone help me fill this in with a SS that can help us next season).

Salary Savings: 13m - ~5m = 8 mil

2. Koch and 2 million shipped to Braves for a prospect (hey, they're always looking for reclamation projects right?)

Salary Savings: ~4m

Just those two moves would save us ~12 million dollars. I'm not sure how much we are over budget right now, but we should then have some money to dabble in the free agent pot. Surely enough for a decent pitcher or 2 (Ponson, Escobar, Batista?), a 2b (Vina, Walker, Alomar?) to fill our holes and 1-2 decent middle relievers.

xil357
11-20-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Simple solution...raise the payroll.

And raise it up the level of Tom Hicks, so we can sign dead weight like Chan Ho Park and Juan Gonzalez?

No thanks.

Raising the payroll is not a "magic wand" solution to fix everything. If they raise the payroll they have to be smart with their money. I'd rather have a smart GM and owner than a owner who just throws money left and right, hoping something sticks.

This is the season where Kenny can prove himself a success or a failure. We already know about Reinsdorf; that he is a tight-fisted and tight-sphinctered bitter Scrooge. Its up to Kenny to make it work. If the Sox make the playoffs and make a run, he probably deserves executive of the year. If not, well, then, maybe its time to go in a different direction.

CubKilla
11-20-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by xil357
And raise it up the level of Tom Hicks, so we can sign dead weight like Chan Ho Park and Juan Gonzalez?

No thanks.

Raising the payroll is not a "magic wand" solution to fix everything. If they raise the payroll they have to be smart with their money.

No one here is advocating raising the payroll to the ceiling and paying everyone on the wishlists 10 times what they're worth. But you do realize that, if JR raised the payroll just $10 million, KW would be able to sign a good SP, or a CF, or a 2B, or a BP arm? If JR raised the payroll $15 million you might be able to sign all four..... without thinking of dealing Lee or Maggs?

surfdudes
11-20-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Do the Sox have the financial flexibility to sign any players? $14 mill is tied up in garbage in Koch and PK. $14 mill is tied up in ORdonez. Basically 1/2 the expected budget is in 3 players and while they're all 3 overpaid, only 1 performs well.


Bob

.........Which is where you found the delusional crack in my thinking. JR won't spend more $ , and the only marketable / movable player at this time is Mags. If/When the trade is made, you 'll hear the screaming all the way from San Diego.

dooda
11-20-2003, 11:22 AM
Let's see......raising the payroll 15 million .........at an average ticket price of 15 dollars is an increase in attendance of 1 million......how many more paying customers will being in 1st place most of the year and the added home games of ....say 2 rounds in the playoffs......that is not an unrealistic increase in attendance if long suffering Sox fans have a season long contender to root for.......and we keep our stars.


No, can't work. Makes to much sense from a business standpoint.

jeremyb1
11-20-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
This might sound stupid, but I really do have faith in KW. Every year he has been here I've honestly been excited about the upcoming season. Even though some of his deals fail miserably, no one can accuse him of not trying to assemble a championship team. I don't think this year will be any different. KW will create a sense of optimism this year on the south side, I'm sure of it. Have a little faith.........
Oh my God, I sound just like a Cubs fan :(

I have faith he'll make moves, just not that they'll be good ones. I don't feel like I can trust him after some of the deals he's made. Also, our organization seems to have fetishes with certain bad players such as Erstad. I'm strongly of the opinion you can't win in this league if you let objectivity affect your decisions on players too strongly. KW wants grinders as opposed to players who actually perform. If you want to win in this league you need to look past certain factors to acquire the underachiever who still performs well above the grinder who simply doesn't produce but looks good doing it.

Gumshoe
11-20-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I have faith he'll make moves, just not that they'll be good ones. I don't feel like I can trust him after some of the deals he's made. Also, our organization seems to have fetishes with certain bad players such as Erstad. I'm strongly of the opinion you can't win in this league if you let objectivity affect your decisions on players too strongly. KW wants grinders as opposed to players who actually perform. If you want to win in this league you need to look past certain factors to acquire the underachiever who still performs well above the grinder who simply doesn't produce but looks good doing it.

Jeremy's got this one, right on. Just win baby. The fact of the matter is that KW was appointed by JR, who is the problem. he's the worst. We WILL NEVER WIN while this man owns our team. It finally dawned on me, and I'm really really uhappy now because I am an optimist. It's not even worth putting much energy into anymore. JR is a cheap LOSER. He and the other guys make plenty of money. They care way more about that than winning; otherwise, they'd actually try to win once in a while!

KW tries like everyone else. I'm so sick of that line "KW tries" ... WHO DOESN'T??? You guys make me sick when you say that. He tries and he makes bad moves because he's not smart, that's all. He's just not smart. Deal in results. Since he's GM, we've had good talent and it's been counterbalanced by other "talent" that didn't mesh. Our organization SUCKS. I'm going to go commit suicide now. Bye (I'm sure Rich will be happy)

Gumshoe

poorme
11-20-2003, 01:56 PM
That's the problem with being an optimist. You'll always be disappointed.

Dub25
11-20-2003, 03:22 PM
[
I think Koch will rebound. You don't save 30+ games by accident.

Bobby Thigpen had lots of saves early in his career and then blew up and was never heard from again.

poorme
11-20-2003, 03:24 PM
Tons of pitchers in baseball history have fallen off the face of the earth and very few of them reappeared.

Dub25
11-20-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by dooda

I think Koch will rebound. You don't save 30+ games by accident.
Just my thoughts on what KW may be thinking . [/B]

Sorry, I'm a moron here's the qoute with my silly thigpen comment.