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View Full Version : No more Kelly Wunsch?


duke of dorwood
11-17-2003, 10:01 PM
According to Harry on AM 1000, who is good friends with #65, he was not "invited" to attend Sox fest this year.

Hmmmmmmm

MRKARNO
11-17-2003, 10:16 PM
Havent we already heard that the Sox were most likely getting rid of him?

mike squires
11-17-2003, 10:24 PM
Why no Wunsch? Is he asking for too much money? I'd hate to see him go. With no Sullivan or wunsch who will be the lefty in the pen? It will create yet ANOTHER pitching hole.

doublem23
11-17-2003, 10:24 PM
Well they better keep one of their lefties besides Marte. Word is Sullivan is as good as gone, too, right?

CubKilla
11-17-2003, 11:17 PM
There must be cheaper options available than Wunsch or, to a lesser degree, Sullivan.

ChiWhiteSox1337
11-17-2003, 11:26 PM
:(:
Hope this isn't true. He was pretty darn good when JM decided to use him monthly. He seemed like a good guy hearing him talk on TV and the radio, too.

Lip Man 1
11-17-2003, 11:39 PM
Isn't Sullivan right handed?

and I thought I saw someplace where Wunsch is either arbitration eligible or a free agent. Can anyone confirm this?

Lip

MisterB
11-18-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Isn't Sullivan right handed?

and I thought I saw someplace where Wunsch is either arbitration eligible or a free agent. Can anyone confirm this?

Lip

Wunsch has 4 years service time and as such is arbitration eligible. He made $575,000 last year an has averaged only 33ip the last 2 years. How much of a raise does KW think Wunsch will get? It can't be that much...

hold2dibber
11-18-2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
Wunsch has 4 years service time and as such is arbitration eligible. He made $575,000 last year an has averaged only 33ip the last 2 years. How much of a raise does KW think Wunsch will get? It can't be that much...

I can't imagine why Wunsch wouldn't be back. I find it hard to believe he'd make a killing in arbitration - I'm guessing if the Sox offered him a 2 year, $1.5 million deal, he'd take it. He is good enough to warrant that - he's a useful pitcher to have and he's cheap. Am I missing something?

mike squires
11-18-2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I can't imagine why Wunsch wouldn't be back. I find it hard to believe he'd make a killing in arbitration - I'm guessing if the Sox offered him a 2 year, $1.5 million deal, he'd take it. He is good enough to warrant that - he's a useful pitcher to have and he's cheap. Am I missing something?

He is injury prone...That's the only thing i can think of why they wouldn't want him back. Maybe ethe SOx know something we don't in regards to his health?

Mammoo
11-18-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
According to Harry on AM 1000, who is good friends with #65, he was not "invited" to attend Sox fest this year.

Hmmmmmmm

No great loss. Kelly Wunschs are a dime a dozen!

THE_HOOTER
11-18-2003, 10:07 AM
You want to pay Wunsch 1.5 million over 2 years?????????????????


That is much worse than paying Valentin his extension.


Kelly Wunsch sucks, and all he could ever do in a tight game was walk someone.

Get rid of him.

poorme
11-18-2003, 10:20 AM
He should have pitched a heckuva lot more than 33 innings. Compared to the Rick Whites and David Sanders types....

hold2dibber
11-18-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
You want to pay Wunsch 1.5 million over 2 years?????????????????


That is much worse than paying Valentin his extension.


Kelly Wunsch sucks, and all he could ever do in a tight game was walk someone.

Ha! And you base this on ....?

$750,000/year is chump change, particularly for an effective left handed reliever. I agree that Wunsch walked way too many guys last year- but, on the other hand, he gave up very, very few hits, so he is still pretty effective (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6440) (he held opposing hitters to a .511 OPS last year!). And I would contend that he was horribly misused by Manuel (there's a big surprise!), which made him rusty. If he had been used more frequently, I think his control would have been better.

If you don't think Wunsch merits $750,000/year, who would you propose taking his place?

Rocky Soprano
11-18-2003, 11:02 AM
I liked Kelly but I dont think it would be a huge loss either. I think he can be easily replaced.

lowesox
11-18-2003, 11:17 AM
Pardon me, but anybody bashing Kelly Wunsch has their head up their ass. This guy has been as steady as they come. It's not his fault that JM used him so sparingly. And a good White Sox fan will remember that in 2000 Kelly Wunsch was one of the keys to our making winning the AL central.

Why is it that some fans jump on player hating bandwagons so quickly. Not every player on a roster is going to be a batting champion or a cy yong winner. Role players are VERY important.

washington
11-18-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
According to Harry on AM 1000, who is good friends with #65, he was not "invited" to attend Sox fest this year.

Do all the players get invited to SoxFest? I can see how Wunsch wouldn't be a big draw for an autograph booth so maybe it doesn't mean he won't be back. He wasn't bad last season, except Tinkerbell would only use him for 1 or 2 batters at a time, preferring to overuse Marte.

According to espn.com he was perfect: He appeared in 43 games -- but still wound up with no wins, no losses and no saves. Which was almost historic -- but not quite. He's the fourth reliever in history to make at least 40 appearances in a no-win, no-loss, no-save season

THE_HOOTER
11-18-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Pardon me, but anybody bashing Kelly Wunsch has their head up their ass. This guy has been as steady as they come. It's not his fault that JM used him so sparingly. And a good White Sox fan will remember that in 2000 Kelly Wunsch was one of the keys to our making winning the AL central.

Why is it that some fans jump on player hating bandwagons so quickly. Not every player on a roster is going to be a batting champion or a cy yong winner. Role players are VERY important.


Besides the year 2000, please prove to me why Wunsch is worth the sweat off of my crack.

Did you forget the Oaf who cried in the dugout after throwing that bunt down the 1st baseline in game 3?

I am not defending Manuel, but the reason Wunsch was not used more is because he couldn't throw a strike in a tight situation.

If you think Kelly Wunsch is worth 750,000 you have your head up your ass.

He is worthless-anything above the minimum is a waste.

poorme
11-18-2003, 11:50 AM
It amazes me how many angry people there are in the world.

Wunsch is an OK pitcher. OK pitchers are worth $750,000.

Huisj
11-18-2003, 11:57 AM
I'd be sad to see Wunsch go. As far as I know, he's about the only major leaguer with a degree in mechanical engineering. Maybe that's how he came up with his crazy sidearm mechanics. . .

$750000? I'd say he's worth that. Where are they going to just find another lefty who is decent who's going to be less that that? Also, with a new manager, maybe he'll actually pitch more than twice a month. He could be pretty stinking valuable, especially if Marte ends up as the closer. If Wunsch goes, the only other lefty could be david sanders, who sucks.

hold2dibber
11-18-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Besides the year 2000, please prove to me why Wunsch is worth the sweat off of my crack.

Did you forget the Oaf who cried in the dugout after throwing that bunt down the 1st baseline in game 3?

I am not defending Manuel, but the reason Wunsch was not used more is because he couldn't throw a strike in a tight situation.

If you think Kelly Wunsch is worth 750,000 you have your head up your ass.

He is worthless-anything above the minimum is a waste.

Now THERE'S some reasoned analysis for you!

Kelly Wunsch isn't worth $750,000 per year because:

(1) He cried in the dugout after the Sox were swept out of the playoffs; and

(2) He "couldn't throw a strike in a tight situation."

The first is laughable, and I won't even bother to respond to it.

The second is an absurd over simplification. He walked too many guys last year (a problem he had not had previously). He also pitched only 33 innings last year. Hard to say if he had control troubles because he was used so infrequently or he was used infrequently because he had control problems - but the fact that he never had those control problems before, when he was used more regularly, certainly seems to suggest the former.

And even if you think he "couldn't throw a strike in a tight situation" last year, what about non-tight situations? The fact is, he gave up very few hits or runs last year. Does that count for nothing? His WHIP was 1.19 and his ERA was under 2.75. His BAA was .139! Lefties hit .127 against him with a .508 OPS and righties hit .153 against him with a .515 OPS. Yeah, he sucked bad! Take away his '01 campaign (when he was hurt) and his career ERA is 3.00. So what do you have against the guy? It sounds to me like you saw a few games last year when Wunsch pitched poorly in a tight situation, and you have come to the conclusion, based ONLY on those few instances, that he sucks, can't be trusted, isn't worth a dime, etc., etc. But if you look at his performance (when healthy) over the past 4 years ,you'll see a guy who has been damn good. And if he could be signed for only $750,000/year, he'd be a good buy. If you think we're missing something here, feel free to explain.

And I'm still waiting for your suggestion for who you think the Sox should have replace him.

THE_HOOTER
11-18-2003, 12:49 PM
I think replacing Kelly Wunsch is the least of the Sox's worries.


He hasn't made it through a season healthy since 2000, and is useless in crunchtime.

I'm sure we can find someone for mop up duty.

voodoochile
11-18-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
I liked Kelly but I dont think it would be a huge loss either. I think he can be easily replaced.

There has to be a lefty in the minors who could pitch 33 innings a year in mostly non-crucial settings I would think...

maurice
11-18-2003, 12:56 PM
Wunsch is a good reliever (virtually unhittable at times) with some health issues, and he's certainly worth resigning. OTOH, they might use Schoenweis to fill Wunsch's role in the pen, if he doesn't end up in the rotation. He'd be a good LOOGY, but otherwise needs to leard a cutter or something to get righties out. It might be smarter to non-tender Schoenweis and resign Wunsch, but I doubt that will happen.

MisterB
11-18-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Wunsch is a good reliever (virtually unhittable at times) with some health issues, and he's certainly worth resigning. OTOH, they might use Schoenweis to fill Wunsch's role in the pen, if he doesn't end up in the rotation. He'd be a good LOOGY, but otherwise needs to leard a cutter or something to get righties out. It might be smarter to non-tender Schoenweis and resign Wunsch, but I doubt that will happen.

Shoney was less effective than Wunsch and made almost 3 times as much. Even with a raise through arbitration, Wunsch would be betterand cheaper in the LOOGY role than Shoney and the minimum $1.12M he'd make through arbitration.

doublem23
11-18-2003, 01:21 PM
If they could find Kelly Wunsch rotting in Milwaukee's farm system, there has to be another one. Lightning can strike twice.

Twin Killing
11-18-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Isn't Sullivan right handed?

Lip

Yes.

hold2dibber
11-18-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
If they could find Kelly Wunsch rotting in Milwaukee's farm system, there has to be another one. Lightning can strike twice.

I suppose it depends upon how much Wunsch is asking for/how much you think he could get in arbitration. If he's as cheap as I think he'd be, I'd rather the Sox spend the extra $300,000 on him than hope that they can catch lightening in a bottle.

And Wunsch is, IMHO, capable of pitching more than Manuel pitched him.

I don't want to sound like I'm some kind of Kelly Wunsch fanatic, because I'm not. But he's good, so if he's cheap, why not keep him?

hold2dibber
11-18-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Shoney was less effective than Wunsch and made almost 3 times as much. Even with a raise through arbitration, Wunsch would be betterand cheaper in the LOOGY role than Shoney and the minimum $1.12M he'd make through arbitration.

Exactly right.

maurice
11-18-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Wunsch would be better and cheaper in the LOOGY role than Shoney

Which is why I suggested that it might be smarter to non-tender Schoenweis and resign Wunsch. However, I don't see KW doing this. Remember that he traded for Schoenweis with the notion of plugging him into the rotation in 2004.

MisterB
11-18-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Which is why I suggested that it might be smarter to non-tender Schoenweis and resign Wunsch. However, I don't see KW doing this. Remember that he traded for Schoenweis with the notion of plugging him into the rotation in 2004.

I don't see where the two are mutually exclusive. If KW wants Shoney in the rotation it shouldn't affect having Wunsch in the bullpen. It's not like either one is making enough to really impact Kenny's ability to sign other players.

maurice
11-18-2003, 02:10 PM
Well, as I said, Schoenweis can't get righties out. If he doesn't learn how, he doesn't belong in the rotation. IMHO, there's a very good chance that he would end up back in the pen. Three lefties in the pen is not a priority for a team with a tight budget and large, dead-weight salaries. If they don't trade Maggs, I expect to see a pen full of minor leaguers.

SoxxoS
11-18-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Well, as I said, Schoenweis can't get righties out. If he doesn't learn how, he doesn't belong in the rotation. IMHO, there's a very good chance that he would end up back in the pen. Three lefties in the pen is not a priority for a team with a tight budget and large, dead-weight salaries. If they don't trade Maggs, I expect to see a pen full of minor leaguers.

Like who? We don't have a lot of options. Actually, let me clarify that. We have options, just not good ones.

I would like to see what Rauch can do, but that's about it.

Foulke You
11-18-2003, 03:16 PM
Wunsch is good as a lefty batter specialist. When he isn't walking people Kelly was about as devestating against leftys as they come. It was when Manuel left Kelly in there for extended periods of time to face rightys is when he usually got in trouble. Ugh, I remember a game last year where Manuel took a right hander out to have Kelly come in and face two right handed batters. :?: If our new manager is smart enough to know Kelly's strength is punching out left handed batters than he is definitely worth keeping on the squad even for $700,000 +

I'm shuddering at the thought of Mike Porzio coming out of the pen as our only other lefty besides Marte. :o:

maurice
11-18-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Like who? We don't have a lot of options. Actually, let me clarify that. We have options, just not good ones.

Assuming you're asking "who are the minor leaguers who might be in the Sox pen next season if they don't bump up the payroll or move some big contracts," the answer is Ginter, Sanders, Stewart (if he comes back healthy), Rauch, Munoz, Adkins, Meaux, etc. Now that Gordon and Sullivan are FAs, the only righties in the Sox pen with significant major-league experience are Koch and Wright (yikes!).

I never said the minor leaguers were good options. There's a difference between what I expect to see and what I'd like to see. As I've expressed elsewhere, I'm not very optimistic going into 2004. My point is that KW is likely to exhaust his very limited budget on other priorities (e.g., 2B, SP, and righty relief).

duke of dorwood
11-18-2003, 04:42 PM
I recall Wunsch being pretty effective against right handers, when the Tinkerer let him face one.

SoxxoS
11-18-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Assuming you're asking "who are the minor leaguers who might be in the Sox pen next season if they don't bump up the payroll or move some big contracts," the answer is Ginter, Sanders, Stewart (if he comes back healthy), Rauch, Munoz, Adkins, Meaux, etc. Now that Gordon and Sullivan are FAs, the only righties in the Sox pen with significant major-league experience are Koch and Wright (yikes!).

I never said the minor leaguers were good options. There's a difference between what I expect to see and what I'd like to see. As I've expressed elsewhere, I'm not very optimistic going into 2004. My point is that KW is likely to exhaust his very limited budget on other priorities (e.g., 2B, SP, and righty relief).

You are right. Outside of Rauch and maybe Meaux, there aren't a lot of good options there. Although I have been a big fan of Ginter.

lowesox
11-18-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
He hasn't made it through a season healthy since 2000, and is useless in crunchtime.


Kelly Wunsh was one of the best players in 2000, the year we made the playoffs. I'm sure there are times he's blown a game, but that comes with the territory of being a middle reliever.

The fact is, he's been a good pitcher for us. He actually deserved to pitch more last year and didn't complain about it. As fans we should appreciate him.

MHOUSE
11-18-2003, 09:23 PM
I'm a big Kelly Wunsch fan. I would totally miss him. He's a goofy guy with a goofy delivery (he's a very funny, nice guy whenever he's on tv or radio) and he's effective. If used correctly in the middle innings he's a good guy to have. Wunsch couldn't pitch in the clutch, so give Marte or Flash those spots. Wunsch has given up very few hits, BAA, or earned runs over the last few years. He was another victim of misuse by Manuel and with a better manager calling the 'pen I think Kelly would be more than worth $1.5 mil over 2 years.

A veteran left-hander out of the bullpen who's a good clubhouse guy and puts out good numbers is a great thing to have and worth anything under $1 million a year. I'd rather have Wunsch than Schoenweiss.

RichH55
11-19-2003, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Well, as I said, Schoenweis can't get righties out. If he doesn't learn how, he doesn't belong in the rotation. IMHO, there's a very good chance that he would end up back in the pen. Three lefties in the pen is not a priority for a team with a tight budget and large, dead-weight salaries. If they don't trade Maggs, I expect to see a pen full of minor leaguers.


2.0 Million for Schoenweiss.....even if he pitches his career best....flat out not worth the money...Non Tender him or get him to come back without arbritaration

hold2dibber
11-19-2003, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
2.0 Million for Schoenweiss.....even if he pitches his career best....flat out not worth the money...Non Tender him or get him to come back without arbritaration

They'd have to be idiots to non-tender Wunsch instead of Schoenweiss, IMHO.