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npdempse
11-17-2003, 02:25 PM
Reading Jim Bouton's Ball Four (great book, btw, if you haven't read it), he talks about playing the White Sox in Milwaukee one day, Comiskey the next. What was up with that?
Was this just the 1970 season? Was the draw so poor in Bridgeport that they had to go up north to make some money?

Dadawg_77
11-17-2003, 02:33 PM
There was an effort to see if the Sox could draw in Milwaukee. Pud and company were looking to buy a team for Milwaukee and the Sox were one of their targets. The AL somewhat block this move by pushing the Sox to be sold to Veck so they could stay in the Chicago market.

TheRockinMT
11-17-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
There was an effort to see if the Sox could draw in Milwaukee. Pud and company were looking to buy a team for Milwaukee and the Sox were one of their targets. The AL somewhat block this move by pushing the Sox to be sold to Veck so they could stay in the Chicago market.

The Milwaukee expirement was the 1970 version of Expos baseball '03. The Sox were looking to be sold and maybe moved. Milwaukee had no MLB baseball at that time because the old Seattle Pilots had not moved yet. It kind of resembled that time in Sox hisotry where Tampa Bay was supposedly bidding on the Sox. I am not sure if all of that stuff was simply a move to rile people up and bring in more fan revenue to the Southside or what, but the Milwaukee thing was only one year I believe.

washington
11-17-2003, 04:57 PM
IIRC, the attendance for the Sox games in Milwaukee that year was about as bad as it was at Comiskey. Which was terrible because it was possibly the worst team in franchise history

PaulDrake
11-17-2003, 05:14 PM
Total attendance for 1970 was 495000 and change IIRC. I believe the one Allyn brother bought out the other one, ending the move to Milwaukee threat. Five years later the AL was all set to move the team to Seattle. Bill Veeck came to the rescue. Sort of. As usual he ran things on a shoestring, and when he could no longer continue the Reinsdorf group got their opportunity.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-17-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
Total attendance for 1970 was 495000 and change IIRC. I believe the one Allyn brother bought out the other one, ending the move to Milwaukee threat. Five years later the AL was all set to move the team to Seattle. Bill Veeck came to the rescue. Sort of. As usual he ran things on a shoestring, and when he could no longer continue the Reinsdorf group got their opportunity.

You got it right. The Sox played "home" games at Milwaukee's County Stadium in 1968 and 1969, one each against every A.L. opponent. Selig and his pals were trying to get a franchise for the Cheese state to replace the Braves. Art Allyn looked prepared to sell them the Sox. Attendance in Milwaukee was far greater than the games at Comiskey Park. Of course back then Selig & Co. were doing everything possible to sell tickets, quite a contrast from his $30 million operation today.

Art sold to his brother John instead of Selig in 1969. Meanwhile Selig & Co. found another pigeon and bought the Seattle Pilots, moving them to Milwaukee for the 1970 season. Seattle immediately sued the American League, and seven years later the Mariners were born, a transparent ploy by the owners to get out from under the lawsuit Milwaukee's used car salesman saddled them with.

The Sox nearly moved again in 1975 when John Allyn was being pressured to sell to Seattle interest (there's our buddy Selig at work again!), but sold to Veeck instead.

How the Sox franchise survived the late-60s and 70s is truly a miracle.

:tool
"Why don't you ask PHG how I know so much about 'caveat emptor.'"

:XL
"Hint -- it has to do with Mike Sirotka's labrum."

washington
11-17-2003, 06:07 PM
Didn't someone in Denver (Marvin Davis?) also try to buy and move the White Sox in 1975?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-17-2003, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by washington
Didn't someone in Denver (Marvin Davis?) also try to buy and move the White Sox in 1975?

Yes. Bill Veeck met with him in Denver in 1979. They had a deal worked out to move the Sox to Mile High Stadium. IIRC, the other owners wanted a pledge that Davis wouldn't move the team and of course he wasn't willing to do it. Next Veeck turned to Ed DeBartolo who *did* make a pledge not to move the team, but he's Italian, owns racehorses, and too hellbent on fielding champion teams (the 49ers dynasty) so naturally stuffshirt Bowie Kuhn wouldn't permit that deal to go through either. (The owners tried a similar stunt to keep the Mariners from being sold to Nintendo back in the early 90's, but failed for the outrageousness of their bigoted objections.)

So finally Veeck turned to the only guys MLB seemed willing to accept, a real estate magnate and a self-made TV executive, Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn. They paid the same $20 million to Veeck that DeBartolo offered a full-year earlier.

:reinsy
"And now it's worth $200 million. Woo hoo!"

:ohno
"And who do you think was working the phone trying to prevent 'non-American interests' from buying the Mariners for fear of how it would screw up his plans to break the union by making Seattle look like a sad sack operation?

:reinsy
"Umm... err... I'm laughing all the way to the bank, my friends."

Daver
11-17-2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yes. Bill Veeck met with him in Denver in 1979. They had a deal worked out to move the Sox to Mile High Stadium. IIRC, the other owners wanted a pledge that Davis wouldn't move the team and of course he wasn't willing to do it. Next Veeck turned to Ed DeBartolo who *did* make a pledge not to move the team, but he's Italian, owns racehorses, and too hellbent on fielding champion teams (the 49ers dynasty) so naturally stuffshirt Bowie Kuhn wouldn't permit that deal to go through either.

You sorta glossed over Debartolo's ownership in several offshore casinos,you also sorta glossed over the fact that Eddie Debartolo Jr. was thrown out of the NFL for concealing his interest in several casinos.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-17-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Daver
You sorta glossed over Debartolo's ownership in several offshore casinos,you also sorta glossed over the fact that Eddie Debartolo Jr. was thrown out of the NFL for concealing his interest in several casinos.

Go pass out speeding tickets at the Indy 500. I don't see anyone reclaiming any of those Super Bowl trophies from the 49ers.

cwsox
11-17-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
You got it right. The Sox played "home" games at Milwaukee's County Stadium in 1968 and 1969, one each against every A.L. opponent. Selig and his pals were trying to get a franchise for the Cheese state to replace the Braves. Art Allyn looked prepared to sell them the Sox. Attendance in Milwaukee was far greater than the games at Comiskey Park. Of course back then Selig & Co. were doing everything possible to sell tickets, quite a contrast from his $30 million operation today.

Art sold to his brother John instead of Selig in 1969. Meanwhile Selig & Co. found another pigeon and bought the Seattle Pilots, moving them to Milwaukee for the 1970 season. Seattle immediately sued the American League, and seven years later the Mariners were born, a transparent ploy by the owners to get out from under the lawsuit Milwaukee's used car salesman saddled them with.

The Sox nearly moved again in 1975 when John Allyn was being pressured to sell to Seattle interest (there's our buddy Selig at work again!), but sold to Veeck instead.

How the Sox franchise survived the late-60s and 70s is truly a miracle.



this is the way it was, and well explained

npdempse
11-17-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by cwsox
this is the way it was, and well explained

Indeed; thanks guys. :D:

Are there any books that lay out a more or less unbiased history of the franchise?

ChiWhiteSox1337
11-17-2003, 09:22 PM
Heh. DeBartolo is at the 49ers game tonight. They just talked about him and how he had to give up the team

TornLabrum
11-17-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
Indeed; thanks guys. :D:

Are there any books that lay out a more or less unbiased history of the franchise?

Rich Lindberg's: "Stealing First."

nasox
11-18-2003, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by npdempse
Are there any books that lay out a more or less unbiased history of the franchise?

The book by Jerome Holtzman (Official Historian of the MLB) called Baseball, Chicago Style gives an excellent, unbiased account of the history of BOTH Chicago baseball clubs. It was an excellent read, very accurate, and somber as a book should be about Chicago baseball history. It gave accounts of the various happenings with the Sox during the 60s and 70s as well as the rest of the years (1900-present). I found it at my library.

nasox
11-18-2003, 02:25 AM
And here are exerpts from Baseball, Chicago Style

Here is a site full of quotes from Baseball, Chicago Style (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/excerpts/baseball_chicago_style.stm)