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View Full Version : Lee/Valentin for Perez/Izturis?


Jjav829
11-15-2003, 07:07 PM
According to Phil Rogers, the trade to watch for is Carlos Lee and Jose Valentin for Odalis Perez and Royce Clay....errr Cesar Izturis. Meh. I guess it would mean Maggs would stay, but the return on the trade doesn't thrill me at all.

Assuming Ken Williams and Dan Evans can put aside their old tensions, the White Sox and Los Angeles Dodgers could do some business this winter.

The White Sox have a surplus of hitters and are so motivated to move salaries that they are willing to consider trading Magglio Ordonez. The Dodgers are desperate to add some pop to a lineup that produced only 3.5 runs per game last season, the lowest total in the majors.

Eyebrows were raised when the White Sox exercised Valentin's $5 million option a couple of weeks ago. That seemed a curious move, given that they are trying to clear payroll space to re-sign other free agents, including Roberto Alomar, Carl Everett, Tom Gordon and Scott Sullivan. But sources indicate they are exploring trades that involve Valentin.


Full Article (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-031115rogersnotes,1,6567813.column?coll=cs-home-headlines)

MRKARNO
11-15-2003, 07:22 PM
Am I alone in not knowing what to think of the sox' situation for '04?

doublem23
11-15-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Am I alone in not knowing what to think of the sox' situation for '04?

Unfortunately, it's looking like the same as it has for the last 80 or so years.

:(:

jabrch
11-15-2003, 07:37 PM
I'd rather pay Carlos the 5-6mm he will get in Arbitration and run with Manos. Iztruris is terrible. Who knows what Odalis gets in arbitration this year, but he is coming from the NL, from Dodger Stadium, one of the best pitchers parks to the AL. His numbers weren't so spectacular in Dodger stadium to believe he can be anything but a 5th starter for us.


I'd vote no to this one, if I had a vote.

Joel Perez
11-15-2003, 07:55 PM
Didn't someone on this board already posted this rumor this week?

It doesn't make sense....Odalis is a good pitcher, but still hasn't put it all together. Cesar is a one-dimensional player...if that's the case, why don't we just go for Rey Ordonez???

I would trade Jose Valentin before I trade Carlos Lee away...unless we're talking about Carlos for Lance Berkman. :D:

poorme
11-15-2003, 08:40 PM
Does Rogers just make these ideas up or is there any truth to them?

MRKARNO
11-15-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Does Rogers just make these ideas up or is there any truth to them?

Is he reliable? No but no one is really, but I seem to think he's turning into the Sam Smith of baseball. He looks at a situation and thinks up of a trade which would make sense, and then writes an article about it.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2003, 12:31 AM
Karno:

Your answer is partially correct but Phil makes his comments based on information that he gets by talking to people in baseball.

I don't think he sits at his lap top and plays fantasy baseball. I think he comes up with this after hearing a rumor, after speaking to say another GM or speaking to an agent.

He was just at the GM meetings in Phoenix. God only knows what he heard from someone.

I remember reading a report in The Sporting News for example before the Sox made the Koch deal mentioning that the Sox were both interested in Gagne and Isturiz. I distinctly remember reading the Dodgers beat writer reporting the Sox were talking Gagne for Foulke. If those reports were true you would assume either the Sox or L.A. might go back to revisit past trade possibilities (although Gagne I'm sure is now off the table...)

If you want to know more about Phil and how he does what he does ask DAVER. Daver in essence works with Phil Rogers suppling him video and written reports on the Sox minor league players. I think he does it on a weekly basis and talks with him quite often.

Lip



Lip

gosox41
11-16-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
According to Phil Rogers, the trade to watch for is Carlos Lee and Jose Valentin for Odalis Perez and Royce Clay....errr Cesar Izturis. Meh. I guess it would mean Maggs would stay, but the return on the trade doesn't thrill me at all.




Full Article (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-031115rogersnotes,1,6567813.column?coll=cs-home-headlines)

Give up PK instead of Lee and I can live with this trade. But doing it this way would be really, really stupid.

Bob

gosox41
11-16-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Karno:

Your answer is partially correct but Phil makes his comments based on information that he gets by talking to people in baseball.

I don't think he sits at his lap top and plays fantasy baseball. I think he comes up with this after hearing a rumor, after speaking to say another GM or speaking to an agent.

He was just at the GM meetings in Phoenix. God only knows what he heard from someone.

I remember reading a report in The Sporting News for example before the Sox made the Koch deal mentioning that the Sox were both interested in Gagne and Isturiz. I distinctly remember reading the Dodgers beat writer reporting the Sox were talking Gagne for Foulke. If those reports were true you would assume either the Sox or L.A. might go back to revisit past trade possibilities (although Gagne I'm sure is now off the table...)

If you want to know more about Phil and how he does what he does ask DAVER. Daver in essence works with Phil Rogers suppling him video and written reports on the Sox minor league players. I think he does it on a weekly basis and talks with him quite often.

Lip



Lip

I thiought there was as trade on the table a couple of years ago that was Howry for Gagne. This was before Gagne became a closer.

Bob

fquaye149
11-16-2003, 09:52 AM
wellllll

I don't hate this idea. Although losing C. Lee would sadden me to a degree.

Think about though if our rotations were buehrle, loaiza, garland, perez. That would be a very very solid staff....maybe as good or better than last year.

Meanwhile, Izturis isn't a great hitter, but he's 23 and still hit .250. What we lose is Jose's home runs, yes, but we also lose his 5 million dollar salary, and Izturis has the potential to be a solid hitter. He already is probably at least as good as Jose defensively.

I don't like this deal...I wouldn't pop the champagne if we make it, and I hope it's not what Cheese was referring to..AND it could be a lot better if

a.) we could substitute Konerko for Carlos
b.) substitute Koch for Carlos
c.) get Mota or any other solid Dodgers pitcher in the deal as well


but if this deal was made I think it might strengthem some of our current weaknesses(salary and pitching)

Nick@Nite
11-16-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by gosox41 Give up PK instead of Lee and I can live with this trade.

Originally posted by fquaye149
we could substitute Konerko for Carlos

Is there a GM around that would take Konerko, and NOT insist on Carlos Lee instead?

CubKilla
11-16-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
Think about though if our rotations were buehrle, loaiza, garland, perez. That would be a very very solid staff....maybe as good or better than last year.

IMHO, the only way that staff is better than the '03 staff is if, by some act of God, the Sox resign Colon. Resigning Colon would mean the Sox would have, barring injury, 5 SP's..... something the '03 Sox didn't have the entire year.

Put me in the no camp on this trade also. Izturis sucks. Whoever referred to him as K-layton was right.

Chisoxfn
11-16-2003, 02:00 PM
Remember Howry for Gagne a few years ago :angry:

guillen4life13
11-16-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Remember Howry for Gagne a few years ago :angry:

IIRC, most of us bashed the idea of that trade.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2003, 02:27 PM
Go Sox 41:

You're right ...it was a discussed trade from the L.A. beat writer...Howry for Gagne (Isturiz was also mentioned being a part of it.)

Obviously the Sox have had at least interest in Isturiz for some time now.

Lip

joecrede
11-16-2003, 03:34 PM
I'm going to ammend my opinion on this trade. I like it if it if the aquisition of Perez means KW will trade Buehrle and package one of the dead weight contracts in addition to dealing Maggs.

For instance, Maggs, Buehrle, and Konerko to the Yankees for Johnson and Soriano.

The roster would then be:

Koch $6.4M
Thomas $6M
Loaiza $4M
Johnson $500,000(?)

with Soriano, Perez, Garland, and Izturiz (I believe) all arbitration eligible totaling around $15M.

This scenario would leave them somewhere around $25-30M to fill holes in LF, RF (Assuming Reed in center), a top-of the-rotation starter, (Ponson?) and a couple of relievers.

longshot7
11-16-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'm going to ammend my opinion on this trade. I like it if it if the aquisition of Perez means KW will trade Buehrle and package one of the dead weight contracts in addition to dealing Maggs.

For instance, Maggs, Buehrle, and Konerko to the Yankees for Johnson and Soriano.

The roster would then be:

Koch $6.4M
Thomas $6M
Loaiza $4M
Johnson $500,000(?)

with Soriano, Perez, Garland, and Izturiz (I believe) all arbitration eligible totaling around $15M.

This scenario would leave them somewhere around $25-30M to fill holes in LF, RF (Assuming Reed in center), a top-of the-rotation starter, (Ponson?) and a couple of relievers.

While you're at it, why not trade every player from last year's team? Geez...

RichH55
11-16-2003, 04:15 PM
I want no part of this deal with C. Lee instead of PK....I don't particularly like Caeser either...

CubKilla
11-17-2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
For instance, Maggs, Buehrle, and Konerko to the Yankees for Johnson and Soriano.

Then who are you going to get to replace Buehrle? We've all but lost Colon. Why would you want to include, arguably, our best pitcher into a deal for Soriano and Johnson?

Put me in the "no" camp on your proposed trade.

JDP
11-17-2003, 12:13 AM
Then who are you going to get to replace Buehrle? We've all but lost Colon. Why would you want to include, arguably, our best pitcher into a deal for Soriano and Johnson?

Put me in the "no" camp on your proposed trade.

Hypothetically, this trade would be sending $25.0 to the NYY and only be gaining just under $1.0 in salary in return. Thus, perhaps use that $24.0+ on FA SP? Colon @ $13.0/yr? Pettitte @ $12.0/yr? *shrugs*

There'd be worse things than using Buehrle as trade bait, as I see him going down hill quicker and quick from season to season. I don't know if you put him in this "deal" that you don't get something even more from the NYY (+Rivera?), but the rhelm of possibility of trading Buehrle should be looked at hard.

I'd see about sending him to STL for Renteria or something (I bet STL would detach the "untouchable" tag if talks involved Buehrle).

joecrede
11-17-2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by JDP
Hypothetically, this trade would be sending $25.0 to the NYY and only be gaining just under $1.0 in salary in return. Thus, perhaps use that $24.0+ on FA SP? Colon @ $13.0/yr? Pettitte @ $12.0/yr? *shrugs*

You got the idea, but I was thinking something along the lines of Ponson @ 3/$22M, Cameron @ 3/$18M and Everett @ 1/$6M.

CubKilla
11-17-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
You got the idea, but I was thinking something along the lines of Ponson @ 3/$22M, Cameron @ 3/$18M and Everett @ 1/$6M.

But who are you going to get to replace MB and BC? Ponson? Maybe. Pettite? No chance. Going to either Houston or resigning with NYY. Millwood? Probably going to Atlanta. Schilling? $$$$$ and won't play for any team owned by JR (don't blame him). Are you gonna deal for a proven starter or roll the dice and hope for another Loaiza?

IMO, this team can't afford..... at this point..... to deal Buehrle.

maurice
11-17-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I seem to think he's turning into the Sam Smith of baseball.

This is a valid comparison. They might write some silly stuff at times, but I give Smith and Rogers credit for at least bothering to do some analysis, instead of recyling old crap like most of their peers. I just wish Rogers would explicitly credit WSI posters for the ideas he regularly lifts from us (e.g., his last two Sox articles).

thepaulbowski
11-17-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Nick@Nite
Is there a GM around that would take Konerko, and NOT insist on Carlos Lee instead?

HOPEFULLY :D:

voodoochile
11-17-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
HOPEFULLY :D:

:dumbash
"How's his shoulder?"

thepaulbowski
11-17-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I'd rather pay Carlos the 5-6mm he will get in Arbitration and run with Manos. Iztruris is terrible. Who knows what Odalis gets in arbitration this year, but he is coming from the NL, from Dodger Stadium, one of the best pitchers parks to the AL. His numbers weren't so spectacular in Dodger stadium to believe he can be anything but a 5th starter for us.


I'd vote no to this one, if I had a vote.

If this means Magglio stays on the Southside, now & in the future, then I'd vote yes.

thepaulbowski
11-17-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:dumbash
"How's his shoulder?"

Nice :)