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Fisk Fan
11-14-2003, 08:13 AM
I heard on the radio that MLB will start randomly testing for steroids beginning next year. It was also stated that 5-7% of players this year tested positive for steroid use. Any thoughts on what kind of impact this will have on certain players next year? Is there any chance that Sox players will be affected?

thepaulbowski
11-14-2003, 08:31 AM
Sammy & Barry will be even smaller when the season starts next year.

joepoe
11-14-2003, 08:52 AM
These dunderheads had advance notice of the tests and 5% still tested positive. duh

washington
11-14-2003, 10:07 AM
It's unbelievable that Bud Selig would claim that 5-7% of the players WHO KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO BE TESTED failing the test is insignificant.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-14-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by joepoe
These dunderheads had advance notice of the tests and 5% still tested positive. duh

The pressure these numbskulls feel to succeed drives them to ridiculous levels of stupidity. The juicers probably figured 2003 was a "free" year because nobody was going to be blamed by name. They could be anonymous juicers, be one of the "free" 5 percent, and get the extra benefit of having a competitive advantage over the other 95 percent who weren't *smart* enough to game the system.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

These guys can not be trusted to police themselves. As I suspected (and can now prove), juicing amongst major leaguers is simply a race to the bottom. End of story.

Jerko
11-14-2003, 10:27 AM
I just hope the "random" tests include the likes of Sammy, Barry, Giambi and all the "suspects" and not just lower level players. I do not put it past MLB to protect their stars.

Randar68
11-14-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by washington
It's unbelievable that Bud Selig would claim that 5-7% of the players WHO KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO BE TESTED failing the test is insignificant.

I would bet the number would have been significantly higher had THG been part of the testing.

KingXerxes
11-14-2003, 11:02 AM
It sounded to me as though there was a first series of tests, followed up by a second tier of testing done randomly. The first round of tests was on about 1,000 players and the second round was a much smaller sampling of around 300 (I don't think my numbers are perfect here - but you get my drift). I will be willing to bet major, major coinage on the fact that all these guys prepared for the first test by staying clean, and then after taking the first test, starting pumping up on the juice figuring they were in the clear. Again - I'll bet almost all the positive results came from the second round of testing.

I hate to look at baseball this way, but look at guys who had lousy starts and then took off later - they are my primary suspects.

Randar68
11-14-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
It sounded to me as though there was a first series of tests, followed up by a second tier of testing done randomly. The first round of tests was on about 1,000 players and the second round was a much smaller sampling of around 300 (I don't think my numbers are perfect here - but you get my drift). I will be willing to bet major, major coinage on the fact that all these guys prepared for the first test by staying clean, and then after taking the first test, starting pumping up on the juice figuring they were in the clear. Again - I'll bet almost all the positive results came from the second round of testing.

I hate to look at baseball this way, but look at guys who had lousy starts and then took off later - they are my primary suspects.

:nandrolone
"What are you talkin' about, man? After Senior Cork, I was able to take a week and a habf off an hit de weights, man."

DrCrawdad
11-14-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
I heard on the radio that MLB will start randomly testing for steroids beginning next year. It was also stated that 5-7% of players this year tested positive for steroid use. Any thoughts on what kind of impact this will have on certain players next year? Is there any chance that Sox players will be affected?

NPR had a segment this morning on the MLB steriod matter. It was pretty interesting. Click on the NPR logo to hear the segment.

http://www.npr.org/images/logo_npr.gif (http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=1505963)

washington
11-14-2003, 12:24 PM
To put it in context: "MLB said of 1,438 anonymous tests this season, between 5 and 7 percent were positive. "

100 players (3+ per team on avg.) tested positive, even though they didn't test for the current Steroid-of-Choice for atheletes and players had ample notice and opportunity to clean up before the tests.


:barney&sham


"So what !! My friend Mark and I saved baseball!!!!"


:tool

"No worries Sam we "filed" your results the same place we put your bat x-rays! Can I still come to your Birthday party?

nasox
11-14-2003, 12:43 PM
I bet this % was in the 5-7% range because some players didn't turn in their samples. The Sox were planning on doing this if you guys remember but Donald Fehr, the Union guy, got really angry at them. This is good nonetheless because now we have mandatory steriod testing for a while.

Brian26
11-14-2003, 12:59 PM
Anyone want to guess who won't be approaching 30 homers again this season?


:manos


"Me?"

Randar68
11-14-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by nasox
I bet this % was in the 5-7% range because some players didn't turn in their samples. The Sox were planning on doing this if you guys remember but Donald Fehr, the Union guy, got really angry at them. This is good nonetheless because now we have mandatory steriod testing for a while.

No player is thought to have done this. It would have been news and the Union would have been irate.

Brian26
11-14-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
No player is thought to have done this. It would have been news and the Union would have been irate.

:manos

"Graffanino let me borrow his sample, but I turned it in."

KingXerxes
11-14-2003, 03:58 PM
My pick for "Most Likely to be Taking Vitamin S" goes to a man whose last name starts with K and ends in O, and there's an "onerk" in the middle.

Terrible start.

Great July and August.

Oops - caught - terrible September.


And a hip problem.

voodoochile
11-14-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
My pick for "Most Likely to be Taking Vitamin S" goes to a man whose last name starts with K and ends in O, and there's an "onerk" in the middle.

Terrible start.

Great July and August.

Oops - caught - terrible September.


And a hip problem.

I completely agree.

poorme
11-14-2003, 04:46 PM
Really? His longest homers go about 385 feet. I'd suspect a couple of others before him. One in particular who has really beefed up since his minor league days.

voodoochile
11-14-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Really? His longest homers go about 385 feet. I'd suspect a couple of others before him. One in particular who has really beefed up since his minor league days.

It's got as much to do with his rumored hip condition (congenital, not degenerative or so they say) - steroids are a common treatment for such diseases - and they way he fell apart when they were testing the first half of last season.

His swing looked awful - all upper body, no hips at all which was not true in the previous years.

jabrch
11-14-2003, 04:48 PM
if Sosa and Bonds both showed up at camp this year at about 185 lbs rather than 235. Um, dieting...conditioning...weightloss....

jabrch
11-14-2003, 04:49 PM
Didn't he mention retiring after this season? I wonder...

daveeym
11-14-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
My pick for "Most Likely to be Taking Vitamin S" goes to a man whose last name starts with K and ends in O, and there's an "onerk" in the middle.

Terrible start.

Great July and August.

Oops - caught - terrible September.


And a hip problem.

Wasn't it Konerko the sox player leading the call for them to all falsely test positive?

Also, steroids do not make your eye as a hitter better. Konerko couldn't hit water if he fell out of both for most of the season, steroids would have had no effect on that.

Look at the players who sized decreased and power numbers declined but their other numbers stayed somewhat the same.

washington
11-14-2003, 04:57 PM
I think steroid use can lead to things like hip joint injuries.

poorme
11-14-2003, 05:00 PM
I heard he's a child abuser too.

StillMissOzzie
11-15-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by poorme
Really? His longest homers go about 385 feet. I'd suspect a couple of others before him. One in particular who has really beefed up since his minor league days.

I agree with you, poorme. If Konerko was on the juice, it seems like it would have showed more, either in his stats or in his body build. Besides, I didn't think that they went to work that fast, like a light switch that you can turn on or off month by month. I always thought it took a while to build up the muscle mass.

On a larger note, that 5% - 7% means that somewhere between 65 and 100 tested positive. It sure seems to me like there were many players on the juice who shouldn't even bother. There aren't 65 - 100 big power threats, are there? Do they want to hit 5 HR's instead of 3?

And who's the other guy who you think has beefed up since their minor league days?

SMO
:?:

fuzzy_patters
11-15-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
I agree with you, poorme. If Konerko was on the juice, it seems like it would have showed more, either in his stats or in his body build. Besides, I didn't think that they went to work that fast, like a light switch that you can turn on or off month by month. I always thought it took a while to build up the muscle mass.

On a larger note, that 5% - 7% means that somewhere between 65 and 100 tested positive. It sure seems to me like there were many players on the juice who shouldn't even bother. There aren't 65 - 100 big power threats, are there? Do they want to hit 5 HR's instead of 3?

And who's the other guy who you think has beefed up since their minor league days?

SMO
:?:

While there are not 65-100 power hitters, you have to figure that there are some AAAA players taking steroids just so they can play. They will never be big power hitters, but if they can have just a little extra strenght, they might go from a AAA player to a bench player on a MLB team.

KingXerxes
11-17-2003, 10:38 AM
I don't understand some of the logic being used on this thread.

If somebody hits 385 foot home runs, that means they are positively not taking steroids? Why? All steroid induced home runs go 450 feet? Where is that written? If a guy has warning track power, and goes on the juice to add 15 feet to his fly outs, then why can't he be hitting 385 foot home runs?

While I readily agree that steroids do not help a person's hand to eye coordination, but that's not really the point is it? Hand to eye coordination is one element in hitting, strength is another. And steroid induced strength doesn't only manifest itself in home runs, it can show itself with faster line drives through the infield, harder hit ground balls etc. A lot of guys have enought hand-to-eye coordination to be major league hitters, but they lack other qualities and that's why they don't play baseball for a living.

KingXerxes
11-17-2003, 10:45 AM
Once I had a respiratory infection, and was prescribed five days worth of some sort of steroid. This was my only experience with these things, but let me tell you that the one's I was taking made you feel less fatigued and much stronger - and they kicked in almost immediately. By the end of my 5 day run, I felt like a Greek god. When I stopped taking them, I felt like I had been hit by a semi-truck.

I don't know if all steroids have this effect, but my point about player whom I suspect take them is that I look for wild swings in their performances as they take them / quit them / take them etc. This is kind of ironic because I also suspect that there are guys out there who just keep taking them and never show these wild fluctuations because they never try to go without them.

poorme
11-17-2003, 11:04 AM
King

I don't disagree, I just don't see the evidence that Konerko is on steroids.

KingXerxes
11-17-2003, 11:11 AM
I guess it comes down to how you view his past few years.

I doubt we'll ever know the truth about any of these guys - who knows.

Randar68
11-17-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by washington
I think steroid use can lead to things like hip joint injuries.

You're kidding, right? He's got a recognized disorder that is due to congenital reasons IIRC. Steroids tend to increase the chances of nips and strains... Mostly muscle-connective-tissue injuries... Big Mac's nagging injuries his last few seasons were symptomatic of steroid-affect injuries...

washington
11-17-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You're kidding, right? He's got a recognized disorder that is due to congenital reasons IIRC. Steroids tend to increase the chances of nips and strains... Mostly muscle-connective-tissue injuries... Big Mac's nagging injuries his last few seasons were symptomatic of steroid-affect injuries...

I wasn't joking, but I wasn't accusing Konerko of taking steroids either. I do recall reading at the time Bo Jackson was injured that one of the leading causes of the type of hip injury he had is steroid abuse, although I've never heard anyone accuse him of using steroids.

McGwire's injuries could also be symptomatic of old age. Everyone accuses him of taking steroids, and he may have, but he was a big guy from his college days, and hit 49 HRs in rookie year. It's not like he was a skinny guy who suddenly got as big as an NFL linebacker (like Sosa Bonds Giambi and others did).

Randar68
11-17-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by washington
I wasn't joking, but I wasn't accusing Konerko of taking steroids either. I do recall reading at the time Bo Jackson was injured that one of the leading causes of the type of hip injury he had is steroid abuse, although I've never heard anyone accuse him of using steroids.

McGwire's injuries could also be symptomatic of old age. Everyone accuses him of taking steroids, and he may have, but he was a big guy from his college days, and hit 49 HRs in rookie year. It's not like he was a skinny guy who suddenly got as big as an NFL linebacker (like Sosa Bonds Giambi and others did).

HUGH!? Jackson blew the bone up on that play with Oakland where he was falling forward, and his foot planted... It was a pure F = ma injury. His injury was nothing like the condition Konerko has. If anything, Blackjack's hip condition was most similar to Konerko's.

I've never read or heard anything about hip joint issues being a problem with Steriod use unless it is a stress injury cause by professional bodybuilders doing more weight on squats and power lifting than their bodies can handle... But again, that is not directly related to steroid use itself and definitely not something ballplayers encounter in their training regimens.

voodoochile
11-17-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
HUGH!? Jackson blew the bone up on that play with Oakland where he was falling forward, and his foot planted... It was a pure F = ma injury. His injury was nothing like the condition Konerko has. If anything, Blackjack's hip condition was most similar to Konerko's.

I've never read or heard anything about hip joint issues being a problem with Steriod use unless it is a stress injury cause by professional bodybuilders doing more weight on squats and power lifting than their bodies can handle... But again, that is not directly related to steroid use itself and definitely not something ballplayers encounter in their training regimens.

They used to think that discontinuing steroids suddenly could cause hip problems, but double blind testing has disproved it. Still, the erroneous information is out there.

Randar68
11-17-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They used to think that discontinuing steroids suddenly could cause hip problems, but double blind testing has disproved it. Still, the erroneous information is out there.

Konerko's hip problem has been there for 6 years at least. Just more misinformation. Not responsible on anyone's part to suggest that kind of garbage...

SoxOnTop
11-17-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The pressure these numbskulls feel to succeed drives them to ridiculous levels of stupidity. The juicers probably figured 2003 was a "free" year because nobody was going to be blamed by name. They could be anonymous juicers, be one of the "free" 5 percent, and get the extra benefit of having a competitive advantage over the other 95 percent who weren't *smart* enough to game the system.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

These guys can not be trusted to police themselves. As I suspected (and can now prove), juicing amongst major leaguers is simply a race to the bottom. End of story.


PHG, you are on the right track, but you are only half right.

These guys aren't stupid. They are just incredibly selfish. Why does a player juice up? Not to better his team, but to pump up his own stats so he can get that big payday. Any selfish player in the final year of his contract could get one final juiced up year and hope for that long term deal without consequenses. I'm glad that those selfish players exist becuase if they didn't we wouldn't have mandatory testing (even if the 5 strikes and your out policy is a complete joke).

Steriod use isn't about raising the collective play of the MLB. Its about cheating to get an advantage over not only your competition but your teamates as well. Becuase in FA everyone is after your dollars....

washington
11-17-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I've never read or heard anything about hip joint issues being a problem with Steriod use unless it is a stress injury cause by professional bodybuilders doing more weight on squats and power lifting than their bodies can handle... But again, that is not directly related to steroid use itself and definitely not something ballplayers encounter in their training regimens.

I said nobody accused Bo Jackson of using steroids. But steroid use is one cause of that type of injury. See for example the St. Petersburg Times, March 12, 1992:

HEADLINE: Experts betting against Jackson

BODY:
For Bo Jackson, Tuesday was the day that had been coming for nearly 14 months....Injured while playing football for the Los Angeles Raiders on Jan. 13, 1991, Jackson fractured the back of his left hip socket, causing partial dislocation. From that, Jackson developed perhaps the world's most celebrated case of avascular necrosis a somewhat rare condition that results in the blood supply being cut off to the area of injury, causing the painful deterioration of cartilage and subsequently, bone. Avascular necrosis can occur in bones anywhere in the body, but Jackson's injury occurred in the most common, the top of the femur (thigh bone) where the bone hooks into the hip. Besides being brought on by trauma as in Jackson's case avascular necrosis can be associated medically with alcoholism, steroid use and sickle-cell disease."

But I never accused Konerko of taking steroids. Maybe Konerko should.

Randar68
11-17-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by washington
I said nobody accused Bo Jackson of using steroids. But steroid use is one cause of that type of injury. See for example the St. Petersburg Times, March 12, 1992:

HEADLINE: Experts betting against Jackson

BODY:
For Bo Jackson, Tuesday was the day that had been coming for nearly 14 months....Injured while playing football for the Los Angeles Raiders on Jan. 13, 1991, Jackson fractured the back of his left hip socket, causing partial dislocation. From that, Jackson developed perhaps the world's most celebrated case of avascular necrosis a somewhat rare condition that results in the blood supply being cut off to the area of injury, causing the painful deterioration of cartilage and subsequently, bone. Avascular necrosis can occur in bones anywhere in the body, but Jackson's injury occurred in the most common, the top of the femur (thigh bone) where the bone hooks into the hip. Besides being brought on by trauma as in Jackson's case avascular necrosis can be associated medically with alcoholism, steroid use and sickle-cell disease."

But I never accused Konerko of taking steroids. Maybe Konerko should.

OK. It's clear what brought on Jackson's, but that is not the same type of disorder that Konerko has, is it? I don't recall the exact name of it, if it has even been released publicly.