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View Full Version : It's Over Kenny


chisoxt
11-13-2003, 04:44 AM
If reports are true that the Sox must trade Ordonez due to his high salary, I see no point in getting in return, veteran players. I know that this division is weak, but the Sox have so many other holes to fill, there is no way in hell they will contend next year. While the Twins may also lose a lot of players, their farm system is so superior to ours, they or the Royals will easily win the Division over the Sox.

Unfortuanately, the right thing for the Sox to do is to make every attempt to restock a very lousy farm system that Kenny is also responsible for. I know that people get upset when the terms 'rebuilding' and 'white flag trade' are mentioned, but let's face it....the window of opportunity is now closed. If Williams hadn't been so impatient in trading guys llike Wells, Fogg, and Bradford, we probably have another run left.

crector
11-13-2003, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by chisoxt
If reports are true that the Sox must trade Ordonez due to his high salary, I see no point in getting in return, veteran players. I know that this division is weak, but the Sox have so many other holes to fill, there is no way in hell they will contend next year. While the Twins may also lose a lot of players, their farm system is so superior to ours, they or the Royals will easily win the Division over the Sox.

Unfortuanately, the right thing for the Sox to do is to make every attempt to restock a very lousy farm system that Kenny is also responsible for. I know that people get upset when the terms 'rebuilding' and 'white flag trade' are mentioned, but let's face it....the window of opportunity is now closed. If Williams hadn't been so impatient in trading guys llike Wells, Fogg, and Bradford, we probably have another run left.

Stuff like this makes one wonder if most of the folks who post here aren't really more Cubs haters than Sox fans.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!!

RichH55
11-13-2003, 05:26 AM
I like how we are willing to decry the trade of Mags as if Rome has fallen without A) knowing if he is gone and B) knowing what the return would be or what the rest of the offseason moves will be


At least wait for the first game to really start bitching people

chisoxt
11-13-2003, 05:49 AM
I like how we are willing to decry the trade of Mags as if Rome has fallen without A) knowing if he is gone and B) knowing what the return would be or what the rest of the offseason moves will be

You need to pay more attention to what is actually written. My point was not to criticize the trade of Mags but rather to question the type of players the Sox will get in return. Kenny should begin to focus on the task of rebuilding this team, rather than diluding himself into thinking that this team can make it into the post season.

RichH55
11-13-2003, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by chisoxt
You need to pay more attention to what is actually written. My point was not to criticize the trade of Mags but rather to question the type of players the Sox will get in return. Kenny should begin to focus on the task of rebuilding this team, rather than diluding himself into thinking that this team can make it into the post season.


Disagree

A) Fogg? He is the difference between rebuilding and contending?

Or maybe its Bradford as we know relief pitching is so hard to find and catching(especially with rifle arms) is easy to find?

B) 14 million is a lot of money to play around with, no question, plus the players we would get back

C) Indians aren't ready for primetime yet, and Minnesota loses talent(ie doesn't get better and they were never "great" to begin with).....you think Bradford hurts the chances but losing Guardado AND Hawkins as well as not having Santana in the pen for a good portion won't hurt the Minnesota bullpen?

D) The Mags deal won't be in a vacuum---If you deal Pk for Odalis, and Koch for Traschel(or even only one of those deals), you could still sign a guy like Ponson and have a very very solid Starting Rotation(the key to winning)

E) Even without Mags this should be a good hitting team(this does assume improvement from both Crede and Olivo, but that isnt exactly assuming a ton) --> PLUS as I stated how can you judge until you know whose coming back? Chances are they won't match Mag's offense, but perhaps they won't have to


I fail to see what good rebuilding does(not to sound like Lip).,....We have a team where we can intergrate the youth into the team(perhaps a Reed and/or Borchard) and make a run

RichH55
11-13-2003, 06:29 AM
Also, some good players on the horizon in the system (Reed and Honel come to mind) and the 2003 draft was a good one, and we should have a bevy of high picks for the coming draft, thus we can restock the shelves without giving up on the next few seasons

kittle42
11-13-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Also, some good players on the horizon in the system (Reed and Honel come to mind) and the 2003 draft was a good one, and we should have a bevy of high picks for the coming draft, thus we can restock the shelves without giving up on the next few seasons

The point is that JR could spend more if he wanted to. This is Chicago, damnit - not Pittsburgh. I'm sick and tired of the nickle and dime bull and so should you be.

CubKilla
11-13-2003, 11:53 AM
I agree that the offseason is far from over, that Sox fans should wait to see what moves this Organization makes, and that Sox fans should wait until the '04 season starts before writing it off, but, I challenge anyone to convince me otherwise that Sox baseball in '04 won't be a huge disappointment given what we've heard through reports thus far..... given the salary constraints set forth by JR.

hold2dibber
11-13-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by chisoxt
If reports are true that the Sox must trade Ordonez due to his high salary, I see no point in getting in return, veteran players. I know that this division is weak, but the Sox have so many other holes to fill, there is no way in hell they will contend next year. While the Twins may also lose a lot of players, their farm system is so superior to ours, they or the Royals will easily win the Division over the Sox.

Unfortuanately, the right thing for the Sox to do is to make every attempt to restock a very lousy farm system that Kenny is also responsible for. I know that people get upset when the terms 'rebuilding' and 'white flag trade' are mentioned, but let's face it....the window of opportunity is now closed. If Williams hadn't been so impatient in trading guys llike Wells, Fogg, and Bradford, we probably have another run left.

I totally disagree. While it is certainly true that KW will need to be creative, and while it is certainly true that he has, to a large extent, made his job harder by signing Koch and PK to big money contracts, there's no reason to think the Sox can't field a contender next season. To do so, they need to acquire another good (i.e., 200 innings, ERA of 4.00 or less) starting pitcher. That is by far KW's biggest challenge. To do so, he'll have to move some salary. If he can't move salary by trading, selling, giving away Koch or PK, he'll have to move Maggs, CLee and/or Thomas. And while all those guys are damn good hitters, they can be replaced by good hitters (maybe not great) for much less (e.g., Fullmer, Burks, Everett, Juan Gonzalez, Palmiero, Burnitz and Ibanez are just a few of the guys who will be available for much less than $5 mm/year). As I've said elsewhere, just dealing Maggs and Koch, assuming the players they get back aren't big money players, would free up money to sign (for example) Ponson, Everett and Tom Gordon. The point is, the nucleus is there to be just as good as any team in the AL Central - KW just has to find bargains and be creative.

TaylorStSox
11-13-2003, 01:52 PM
I agree. This team is in need of a major shake up. The talent isn't the problem. The problem is with the culture of the team and the organization. Most of the players take no pride in the fact that they play for the Sox. The will and the heart aren't there. I don't see the point in patching together another team that is mediocre in the hopes of winning a weak division. The ultimate goal should be to win the Series with the playoffs being a given.

I keep hearing that rebuilding would be suicide because the Cubs are good now. Who cares about the freaking Cubs? We're Sox fans. It can't get much worse than it already is. This town is big enough for 2 baseball teams. We can outlast a complete overhaul. It's sad but true.

There's a shortlist of guys that I'd keep. Garland (because he will dominate at some point. We need to show him some loyalty to receive loyalty), Marte, Rowand, Thomas, Lee, Olivo, Harris and Crede. I don't care if we have a horrible season as long as guys play with pride and I see progress and growth. The team that was put on the field this year was talented but pathetic. The Twins and the Indians should be models for this. They're building their teams the right way.

The sky isn't falling. It's already fallen.

jabrch
11-13-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt
You need to pay more attention to what is actually written. My point was not to criticize the trade of Mags but rather to question the type of players the Sox will get in return. Kenny should begin to focus on the task of rebuilding this team, rather than diluding himself into thinking that this team can make it into the post season.

And trading Mags in a deal that nets us Soriano and Johnson wouldn't be "rebuilding this team"?

Trading Mags can keep us competitive today AND give us some talent on our roster for the future.

Lip Man 1
11-13-2003, 02:10 PM
Taylor St. Sox says: "Most of the players take no pride in the fact that they play for the Sox. The will and the heart aren't there."

That's an interesting take and one that I agree with. However I don't blame the players that much for feeling this way.

I blame the individual who pulled off the "White Flag Deal," the individual who threatened to move the team to Florida unless he got a new stadium (and one that he designed badly himself), the individual who has said twice publicly sine June 2002 that Chicago has "always been a Cubs town," and the individual who insists on hiring inexperienced general and field managers to run the operation.

It's the same individual who has an organization that is hostile and paranoid of the Chicago media, then wonders (as did his general manager on the first day of spring training 2001) why the media is "negative" towards the Sox.

You are correct, many players don't have pride in playing for the Sox today.....seemingly with good reason don't you think?

Lip

TaylorStSox
11-13-2003, 02:19 PM
JR is at fault. The culture was there in the early 90's before JR helped make the strike happen. That team was feared and guys enjoyed it. Fans came to the park and the inferiority complex about the Cubs wasn't prevalent.

A negative image can be positive. The Raiders and the Pistons embraced it and used it to their advantage. However, those teams had that image because they'd do anything to win. This team won't even hustle.

The story that came out at the end of the season about Everett's alledged comments to Mienkeivitz (sp?) speak volumes about the problems with this organization.