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View Full Version : Neyer says Cotts maybe a future star


Huisj
11-10-2003, 09:46 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=1658537

Interesting story about a knuckleballer at the Arizona Fall League. Says at the end that the best bets for a potential star are Dewon Brazelton, Neal Cotts, or Boof Bonser.

ScottyTheSoxFan
11-10-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Boof Bonser.

now thats a name!

MetalliSox
11-10-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Boof Bonser.

Anyone else think of the girl in "Teen Wolf"?

Daver
11-10-2003, 10:05 PM
Boof Bonser is the real deal,he has all the tools to be a long time MLB pitcher.

Brian26
11-10-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
at the Arizona Fall League. Says at the end that the best bets for a potential star are Dewon Brazelton, Neal Cotts, or Boof Bonser.

I expect Cotts to come out of Spring Training as our 5th starter if things don't work out with Colon and Rauch doesn't come back to life. Cotts showed signs of being the real deal in between the walks. He's got some pop but just needs to work on his control.

Randar68
11-10-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=1658537

Interesting story about a knuckleballer at the Arizona Fall League. Says at the end that the best bets for a potential star are Dewon Brazelton, Neal Cotts, or Boof Bonser.


Why would ANYONE think that given that he had some control problems and blew up in Yankee stadium in his fourth career start in a pennant chase straight from AA...

Trade him for Royce Clayton, I miss The Choice

RichH55
11-11-2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Why would ANYONE think that given that he had some control problems and blew up in Yankee stadium in his fourth career start in a pennant chase straight from AA...

Trade him for Royce Clayton, I miss The Choice


Royce Clayton, Vina, Singleton...all there for the taking...where do I sign!

gosox41
11-11-2003, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Boof Bonser is the real deal,he has all the tools to be a long time MLB pitcher.

But does Cotts? I have my doubts about a 23 year old pitcher who can't find the strike zone consistently. Not saying it won't happen, but I'm not to optimistic right now.

Bob

gosox41
11-11-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
I expect Cotts to come out of Spring Training as our 5th starter if things don't work out with Colon and Rauch doesn't come back to life. Cotts showed signs of being the real deal in between the walks. He's got some pop but just needs to work on his control.

That's like saying PK would have had an All Star year if you don't count all the outs he made while at bat.

:D:

Bob

hold2dibber
11-11-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
I expect Cotts to come out of Spring Training as our 5th starter if things don't work out with Colon and Rauch doesn't come back to life. Cotts showed signs of being the real deal in between the walks. He's got some pop but just needs to work on his control.

I think he needs a third pitch, too. He appears to have a nice, deceiving fastball and a decent change-up, but his curve ball, from what I saw, was a "roller". To become a consistently effective major league pitcher, he needs to improve that curveball or develop a cutter or a sinker that he can use to get people out.

soxtalker
11-11-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
But does Cotts? I have my doubts about a 23 year old pitcher who can't find the strike zone consistently. Not saying it won't happen, but I'm not to optimistic right now.

Bob

How do pitchers in general progress as they move through the minor leagues? In other words, is control something that can be -- and normally is -- correctable?

TraderTim
11-11-2003, 08:58 AM
If memory serves me here...they are adding a third pitch to Cotts this fall...

And Boof...he's got the stuff, and he's got the name. I'd trade for him just because of the darned name!

Forkit!

Randar68
11-11-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think he needs a third pitch, too. He appears to have a nice, deceiving fastball and a decent change-up, but his curve ball, from what I saw, was a "roller". To become a consistently effective major league pitcher, he needs to improve that curveball or develop a cutter or a sinker that he can use to get people out.


Hugh? He has a good curve. What people saw in the short time in the majors was not Neal Cotts. His mechanics fell apart because guys weren't chasing his off-speed pitches and he wasn't throwing them for strikes. He started aiming and opening his right side early...

He has 3 good pitches, none of them great. He has good movement on his fastball and good deception on his change.

His curve is a third pitch and he only uses it 10-12 times a game at most. Control is the issue. Consistent mechanics, not trying to paint and strike everyone out... etc etc. He has such good movement he can let people hit the ball, but he still is trying to be a strike-out pitcher. The ball is rarely hit hard off of him, and he dominates lefties.

hold2dibber
11-11-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Hugh?

Who the heck is Hugh? :D:

He has a good curve. What people saw in the short time in the majors was not Neal Cotts. His mechanics fell apart because guys weren't chasing his off-speed pitches and he wasn't throwing them for strikes. He started aiming and opening his right side early...

He has 3 good pitches, none of them great. He has good movement on his fastball and good deception on his change.

His curve is a third pitch and he only uses it 10-12 times a game at most. Control is the issue. Consistent mechanics, not trying to paint and strike everyone out... etc etc. He has such good movement he can let people hit the ball, but he still is trying to be a strike-out pitcher. The ball is rarely hit hard off of him, and he dominates lefties.

This is good to know - again, my only exposure to Cotts is when he was up with the Sox and from what I saw (which was only on TV) the curve didn't have much bite. I'm glad to know that what I saw was not really representative of his aresenal. I still view Rauch as a more viable 5th starter option as of this point in time, but it sounds as if Cotts could give him a run for his money.

Randar68
11-11-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Who the heck is Hugh? :D:



This is good to know - again, my only exposure to Cotts is when he was up with the Sox and from what I saw (which was only on TV) the curve didn't have much bite. I'm glad to know that what I saw was not really representative of his aresenal. I still view Rauch as a more viable 5th starter option as of this point in time, but it sounds as if Cotts could give him a run for his money.

Well, injuries have held big Jon back the past couple years, so that's still the primary concern with him.

Cotts has struggled a bit in the AFL, so we'll see. I would rather see him go to AAA, though. If he's healthy, it's now or never for Jon Rauch.

BTW, Cotts' curve isn't a hard-biter like Aaron Sele, it's more of a swinger, or slurve, similar to Mark Buehrle's.

ondafarm
11-11-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
now thats a name!

What about Coco Crisp the outfielder with the Indians?

FanOf14
11-11-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
What about Coco Crisp the outfielder with the Indians?

One of my all time favorites is a NASCAR racer - Dick Trickle.

KingXerxes
11-11-2003, 03:51 PM
I suspect that if either Cotts or Rausch is our 5th starter - it's going to be a long year next year.

Randar68
11-11-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I suspect that if either Cotts or Rausch is our 5th starter - it's going to be a long year next year.

Yeah, but I bet Kenny Rogers would solve all of our problems.

hold2dibber
11-11-2003, 04:39 PM
Oh boy, here we go again!

Gumshoe
11-11-2003, 06:48 PM
Was it Rob "my name is really Ken Williams and I'm trying to to make up for the worst trade in modern history by saying this" Neyer.

That one?????

Gumshoe

konerkopeachy
11-11-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
What about Coco Crisp the outfielder with the Indians?

Let's not forget another famous Indian, Mr. Milton Bradley.

RichH55
11-12-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Was it Rob "my name is really Ken Williams and I'm trying to to make up for the worst trade in modern history by saying this" Neyer.

That one?????

Gumshoe

Are you really this dumb? Please tell me you just post to stir up trouble....at least I can wrap my mind around that concept

RichH55
11-12-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I suspect that if either Cotts or Rausch is our 5th starter - it's going to be a long year next year.

Panecho(sic?) is an option as well

gosox41
11-12-2003, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Hugh? He has a good curve. What people saw in the short time in the majors was not Neal Cotts. His mechanics fell apart because guys weren't chasing his off-speed pitches and he wasn't throwing them for strikes. He started aiming and opening his right side early...
e.



The reason hitters weren't chasing his off speed stuff is because major league hitters, in general, are better then minorleague hitters. Cotts has exhibited lack of control throughout his career. He is able to get away with more in AA because the quality of hitting is way lower then in the majors. He can overpower more people in the minors and get the undisciplined hitters to chase pitches. The fact that he still has a ton of walks in the minors doesn't bode well.

Bob

Gumshoe
11-12-2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Panecho(sic?) is an option as well

Rich, I thought they might be bringing up Enemenico Pacheco as a closer ...

(it's funny, because pachecho is slang mexican spanish for HIGH)

Anyway, I'm tired of hearing about Cotts and his "future". He's got a great shot to turn out good (LH, been good, etc.). But I stress the word "shot"

Nothing is even close to guaranteed, and it hurts me how good Foulke was and how we treated him.

Gumshoe

SoxOnTop
11-12-2003, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Rich, I thought they might be bringing up Enemenico Pacheco as a closer ...

(it's funny, because pachecho is slang mexican spanish for HIGH)

Anyway, I'm tired of hearing about Cotts and his "future". He's got a great shot to turn out good (LH, been good, etc.). But I stress the word "shot"

Nothing is even close to guaranteed, and it hurts me how good Foulke was and how we treated him.

Gumshoe

I agree with Gummy. Cotts has as much potential as the rest of the so called studs we had in 2000. And they turned into staff full of aces, right?

Is that worth dumping a 40 save closer for another closer being passed around like a hot potato? And don't give me any of that "how would we know that Foulke would be so good" crap. Manual completely mismanaged him and we ran him out of town for no good reason.

Rich, I have no idea where you are coming from on this issue.

RichH55
11-12-2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I agree with Gummy. Cotts has as much potential as the rest of the so called studs we had in 2000. And they turned into staff full of aces, right?

Is that worth dumping a 40 save closer for another closer being passed around like a hot potato? And don't give me any of that "how would we know that Foulke would be so good" crap. Manual completely mismanaged him and we ran him out of town for no good reason.

Rich, I have no idea where you are coming from on this issue.


Ummm, what?

A) Never said anything about Foulke, simply called out Gumshoe for his post(ie Neyer being a KW apologist)

B) I mentioned another guy for the 5th slot, nothing that hasn't been said before



As far as my stance on the issue: It was never that Foulke wasn't going to be good, it was simply that I didn't think Koch would be that bad, and I knew Foulke was only around for one year.

The trade did not turn out well, but surely getting a guy like Cotts is a boon for the team, no? We will have to see how it all works out

Randar68
11-12-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
The reason hitters weren't chasing his off speed stuff is because major league hitters, in general, are better then minorleague hitters. Cotts has exhibited lack of control throughout his career. He is able to get away with more in AA because the quality of hitting is way lower then in the majors. He can overpower more people in the minors and get the undisciplined hitters to chase pitches. The fact that he still has a ton of walks in the minors doesn't bode well.

Bob

He CAN throw strikes, but what he showed in his short stint was wildly inconsistent mechanics. Nipping and biting at the corners isn't going to get you many calls in the majors as a young player. Throw strikes, challenge hitters. It's a different mental approach for him, and the mental aspect is 90% of pitching.

Daver
11-12-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Rich, I thought they might be bringing up Enemenico Pacheco as a closer ...


Pacheco led the Birmingham Barons in innings pitched and starts last seson,why in the hell would he be converted into a closer?

gosox41
11-12-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He CAN throw strikes, but what he showed in his short stint was wildly inconsistent mechanics. Nipping and biting at the corners isn't going to get you many calls in the majors as a young player. Throw strikes, challenge hitters. It's a different mental approach for him, and the mental aspect is 90% of pitching.

When does he consistently throw strikes? His minor league stats don't indicate it .

Bob

Randar68
11-13-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
When does he consistently throw strikes? His minor league stats don't indicate it .

Bob

I'm sorry, but we are AGAIN back to 'Reading Comprehension 101.'

Don't place words in my mouth. The only time i used the word "consistent" was in the word "inconsistent."

Do you know how to read a whole post?

doublem23
11-13-2003, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Pacheco led the Birmingham Barons in innings pitched and starts last seson,why in the hell would he be converted into a closer?

Someone's got to fill the void left by that first-round draft pick closer we traded.

gosox41
11-13-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
He CAN throw strikes, but what he showed in his short stint was wildly inconsistent mechanics. Nipping and biting at the corners isn't going to get you many calls in the majors as a young player. Throw strikes, challenge hitters. It's a different mental approach for him, and the mental aspect is 90% of pitching.

Randar,
Look at your post. He "can" throw strikes? So can I. My point is he doesn't consistently throw strikes because his mechanics are "inconsistent."

He never has had a history of throwing strikes CONSISTENTLY mainly due to INCONSISTENT mechanics. And weak minor league compeition allowed Cotts to CONSISTENTLY get away with being INCONSISTENT in the strike zone due to,again, his INCONSISTENT mechanics.

I'll try to make it clearer for you from now on instead of reading between the lines. But that was the whole post you mentioned that I was responding to.

Bob

Randar68
11-13-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Randar,
Look at your post. He "can" throw strikes? So can I. My point is he doesn't consistently throw strikes because his mechanics are "inconsistent."

He never has had a history of throwing strikes CONSISTENTLY mainly due to INCONSISTENT mechanics. And weak minor league compeition allowed Cotts to CONSISTENTLY get away with being INCONSISTENT in the strike zone due to,again, his INCONSISTENT mechanics.

I'll try to make it clearer for you from now on instead of reading between the lines. But that was the whole post you mentioned that I was responding to.

Bob

YAWN. *****. Learn how to read. His mechanics went to hell in his time in Chicago. I have not seen him have a meltdown like that in terms of completely losing it at any other point and haven't heard of it in the past year other than those 4 starts.

He nips at everything. When he's on, he throws it where he wants to, but he is always trying to paint and strike guys out. That's what leads to the walks and the high pitch counts. He has enough movement and deception that if he would make guys put the ball in play, he'd be even better, and he'd cut down on the walks.

OK. Now read that 5 times to yourself and try to understand what I'm saying before flapping your trap again.

maurice
11-13-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Someone's got to fill the void left by that first-round draft pick closer we traded.

Marte will be a fine closer, given the opportunity. IMHO, you don't convert a starting prospect into a reliever until he proves that he can't start. You might give a starter relief innings to break him into the majors, but the plan should be to keep him a starter if at all possible. Starters are far more valuable than relievers, even closers.

SoxxoS
11-13-2003, 01:47 PM
I am for giving Marte an opportunity to start...as long as we can add some bullpen help. He has got nasty stuff...the question is does he have the stamina/strength to be a starter. IMO, it's about 50/50.

gosox41
11-13-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
YAWN. *****. Learn how to read. His mechanics went to hell in his time in Chicago. I have not seen him have a meltdown like that in terms of completely losing it at any other point and haven't heard of it in the past year other than those 4 starts.

He nips at everything. When he's on, he throws it where he wants to, but he is always trying to paint and strike guys out. That's what leads to the walks and the high pitch counts. He has enough movement and deception that if he would make guys put the ball in play, he'd be even better, and he'd cut down on the walks.

OK. Now read that 5 times to yourself and try to understand what I'm saying before flapping your trap again.

You just described every pitcher in baseball....good job. His #'s look like he is always trying to paint the corners, even in the minors. He gets away with it there because he's facing inferior hitters who tend to chase pitches out of the strike zone.

How much have you seen Cotts pitch, anyway? I've only seen him in the majors. But I was not at all surprised by his performance here after lookign at those minor league walk totals, you knwo when he was consistently throwing strikes.

I read your post once, and it contradicts his numbers. Maybe he has never had the meltdown in the minors that he had in the majors, but I gave my reasons for that. He has always had trouble finding the strike zone.

But it's good to know when he's on he'll get big league hitters out...according to you. All we need now is for him to be "on." Try not holding your breath too long for that to happen.

Bob

Daver
11-13-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by gosox41


How much have you seen Cotts pitch, anyway?

I have 14 hours of tape of Cotts pitching in Charlotte.I tend to agree with Randar,he will be able to get hitters out.

I also agree with the fact that he needs to get his mechanics squared away,his stuff and his control are not really an issue,his mechanics are,he needs to learn to throw consistently from the same angle,instead of adjusting pitch to pitch.Kirk Champion could probably correct that problem.

Randar68
11-13-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I've only seen him in the majors. But I was not at all surprised by his performance here after lookign at those minor league walk totals, you knwo when he was consistently throwing strikes.

I've seen him pitch a couple times in person in AA and a little bit of tape on him in addition to the Future's Game, and obviously the 4 starts in the majors.

"Well, I mean by looking at the box score and seeing that he walks guys, I guess I know everything there is to know about the guy"

GMAB. Between myself, Daver, Rob Neyer and Baseball America, I'm sure you know more abaout the situation by looking at the Box Scores. Yep, a resident expert all right.

Here's some number's for ya, Bob, I figure it's the only thing you'll understand: 11 K's per 9 IP, 2.16 ERA, only 7 HR's in his minor league career, none to a lefty.

It's times like these I have to dig out the good old:





BLA!

doublem23
11-13-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I am for giving Marte an opportunity to start...as long as we can add some bullpen help. He has got nasty stuff...the question is does he have the stamina/strength to be a starter. IMO, it's about 50/50.

I doubt Marte has the stamina or pitch repertoire to be a good starter.

Randar68
11-13-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
I doubt Marte has the stamina or pitch repertoire to be a good starter.

I agree. His chances for success as a starter is probably a lot less than 50/50 IMO. As a starter, his velocity was considerably less and he had a lot of trouble the second or third time through the order. There is nothing that leads me tot believe that wouldn't still be true.

gosox41
11-14-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I've seen him pitch a couple times in person in AA and a little bit of tape on him in addition to the Future's Game, and obviously the 4 starts in the majors.

"Well, I mean by looking at the box score and seeing that he walks guys, I guess I know everything there is to know about the guy"

GMAB. Between myself, Daver, Rob Neyer and Baseball America, I'm sure you know more abaout the situation by looking at the Box Scores. Yep, a resident expert all right.

Here's some number's for ya, Bob, I figure it's the only thing you'll understand: 11 K's per 9 IP, 2.16 ERA, only 7 HR's in his minor league career, none to a lefty.

It's times like these I have to dig out the good old:





BLA!

I tend to respect Daver's opinion more then your's and almost as much as Rob Neyer's. Doesn't mean I agree with everything that's said about every player.

That being said, I still have my doubts about his ability. Maybe he can be turned around. But right now I see a 23 year old prospect with a lot of upside potential who has a history of walking a lot of people. Those are the facts. If I'm not mistaken, I think he'll be 24 in the spring. Is he going to be a 24 year old AA pitcher? He better be close to figuring out that strike zone then.

I still think there is something to be said for a pitcher who has such high walk totals in the minor league levels. The discipline of minor league hitters is not nearly the same as the disciple on major leaguers. I don't doubt his ability to get hitters out....if he throws strikes. It's a big if.

Bob

Daver
11-14-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I tend to respect Daver's opinion more then your's and almost as much as Rob Neyer's. Doesn't mean I agree with everything that's said about every player.

That being said, I still have my doubts about his ability. Maybe he can be turned around. But right now I see a 23 year old prospect with a lot of upside potential who has a history of walking a lot of people. Those are the facts. If I'm not mistaken, I think he'll be 24 in the spring. Is he going to be a 24 year old AA pitcher? He better be close to figuring out that strike zone then.

I still think there is something to be said for a pitcher who has such high walk totals in the minor league levels. The discipline of minor league hitters is not nearly the same as the disciple on major leaguers. I don't doubt his ability to get hitters out....if he throws strikes. It's a big if.

Bob

Bob,you also have to take into consideration the fact that you have minor league umpires calling the balls and strikes,the same minor league umps that fail miserably in stadiums that are equiped with the Quest-Tec system.

Also for what it is worth,Randar strides where I crawl in terms of knowledge of minor league talent,I am far from an expert.

gosox41
11-15-2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Bob,you also have to take into consideration the fact that you have minor league umpires calling the balls and strikes,the same minor league umps that fail miserably in stadiums that are equiped with the Quest-Tec system.

Also for what it is worth,Randar strides where I crawl in terms of knowledge of minor league talent,I am far from an expert.

But wouldn't that effect other minor league pitchers as well? Were walks up a lot that much in the minors? Even if you adjust for that it would seem to me that Cotts walks a lot of hitters. Also if Cotts' wind up is so deceptive wouldn't it just as likely make the umpires call more strikes?

I hope I'm wrong about Cotts. But since I don't have the time to go watch him pitch (unless he's actually up with the Sox) all I have to go on is the numbers. The numbers may not explain why (ie inconsistent mechanics) but I think they have some value in telling what is happening.


Bob
Bob