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ScottyTheSoxFan
11-10-2003, 10:05 AM
OF/IF Willie Harris will be working extensively with new manager Ozzie Guillen on bunting and using his speed as a leadoff hitter. Guillen says he would like Harris to become a player similar to Marlins CF Juan Pierre.

link (http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=1829678)

does this mean willie is our cf next year? i assume alomar stays

jabrch
11-10-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
link (http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=1829678)

does this mean willie is our cf next year? i assume alomar stays

Who is going to teach him how to be patient at the plate and take walks like Pierre? I like Ozzie and think he was a good hire - or at least I am willing to give him a chance - but he probably is not the best person to instruct on patience at the plate. Joey Nobrains isn't much better...

I am glad I like Greg Walker - give me a sense of hope for the hitting. I'd love to see him get PK on track.

MisterB
11-10-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Who is going to teach him how to be patient at the plate and take walks like Pierre?

Pierre's OBP this season was .56 higher than his batting average. Harris' OBP was .55 higher than his BA, so he's already getting walks (+ hbp) at the same rate. The big difference is Pierre hit 100 points higher and struck out only 7 more times in almost 5 times as many AB's. Harris needs to make contact and put the ball in play, which is one of the few things Ozzie was good at.

poorme
11-10-2003, 11:09 AM
Harris has shown a good eye in the minors. He has to learn how to smack line drives all over the field. Otherwise pitchers just throw him strikes and he gets himself out.

maurice
11-10-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
he's already getting walks (+ hbp) at the same rate.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post but, if you run the raw numbers, you wil find that the rates are not the same. Pierre walked or got HBP about 20% more often than Harris in 2003 (8.2% v. 6.8%). Some of this difference is due to the fact that Harris never has been hit by a pitch in a major league game (nice quality for a leadoff hitter).

voodoochile
11-10-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
Pierre's OBP this season was .56 higher than his batting average. Harris' OBP was .55 higher than his BA, so he's already getting walks (+ hbp) at the same rate. The big difference is Pierre hit 100 points higher and struck out only 7 more times in almost 5 times as many AB's. Harris needs to make contact and put the ball in play, which is one of the few things Ozzie was good at.

That depends on how high is BA is. .55 extra points on a .300 BA is a lot more walks than .56 on a .200 BA. Because walks don't count when calculating BA and do count when talking about OBP it takes a lot less walks to raise a .200 hitters OBP by .55 points.

Two batters each with 700 total plate appearances and 80 walks. They reached base no other way and had no sacrafices.

The first hitter gets 200 hits = .323 BA and a .400 OBP

The second hitter gets 124 hits = .200 BA and a .291 OBP

The second hitters walks mean more to his OBP. The same number of plate appearances and walks raises his OBP .091 points above his BA while the first guy only gains .077 points of OBP.

Brian26
11-10-2003, 11:40 AM
I'm scared.

thezeker
11-10-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Who is going to teach him how to be patient at the plate and take walks like Pierre? I like Ozzie and think he was a good hire - or at least I am willing to give him a chance - but he probably is not the best person to instruct on patience at the plate. Joey Nobrains isn't much better...


Joey Nobrains, as you call him was probably one of the best at taking walks for the White Sox in the last 15 years. I remember many games where Joey would have an 0-2 count against him and patiently foul off pitch after pitch and take a walk. Much like the Marlins did in the playoffs this year.

Cora is just what the doctor ordered. He will help with our bunting and with pitch selection. I can see him making a big difference with Harris and others on this team who lack fundamentals. I truly believe Cora will prove invaluable to this team!!!

jeremyb1
11-10-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Harris has shown a good eye in the minors. He has to learn how to smack line drives all over the field. Otherwise pitchers just throw him strikes and he gets himself out.

Good point. He walked 17 times in 117 plate appearances in AAA last season. That's not a gigantic sample size but that's still oustanding plate discipline. He simply needs to put the bat on the ball a little bit more and understand the importance of reaching base via the walk.

duke of dorwood
11-10-2003, 06:44 PM
:KW

But is he a grinder?

Tragg
11-10-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
link (http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=1829678)

does this mean willie is our cf next year? i assume alomar stays

The fact that OG is actually talking about coaching and teaching is an improvement in my book.

Just hope he doesn't teach him how NOT to take walks

duke of dorwood
11-11-2003, 10:17 AM
His weak arm would kill us in the outfield.

Randar68
11-11-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
His weak arm would kill us in the outfield.

Better than Rowand's errant "cannon" (not my term for an average arm at best) and quicksand footwork. But hey, how many walls does Harris run into? Probably not a whole lot since he's waiting for the ball to come down instead of drifting with it.

fquaye149
11-11-2003, 10:40 AM
i'm excited about willie...from what i hear when he actually tries to hit the ball rather than bunt for basehits he's a solid slapper.

however... NEXT YEAR?

NO NO NO

KingXerxes
11-11-2003, 03:19 PM
From what I saw of the Marlins this year, there is no way Willie Harris is as fast as Juan Pierre - so I wouldn't hold my breath about him being as effective. That being said however, I would make Harris my second baseman and instruct him to do exactly what they are telling him to do now.

Compare Willie Harris with Roberto Alomar. Wouldn't you really rather have Harris, and use the saved money on a pitcher who would give us a chance every fifth day? I just don't see keeping Alomar - and if they do, I give up.

DrCrawdad
11-11-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
:KW

But is he a grinder?

And if he is a grinder, what type of grinder might he be?

http://www.hitachi-koki.com/powertools/images/grinder.jpg

http://tubes.ominix.com/art/a/hardware/bench-grinder.png

http://www.kimble.easynet.co.uk/images/MONKEY.GIF

jeremyb1
11-11-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Compare Willie Harris with Roberto Alomar. Wouldn't you really rather have Harris, and use the saved money on a pitcher who would give us a chance every fifth day? I just don't see keeping Alomar - and if they do, I give up.

Unless Robbie wants to sign for less than 2 million, I would rather have Willie. Come on, it can't be that hard to post an OPS in the high .600s. If Harris plays every day and doesn't shy away from taking walks - which he appears to have the plate discipline to do - he should be able to get his OPS around .700. If he struggles, replace him with someone off the scrapheap. Clearly there are players out there for the minimum that can replicate Alomar's offensive production and I don't feel as though his clubhouse leadership and defense is worth over 2 million dollars. We could take major steps to strengthen the pen with that money (Curtis Leskanic?).

doublem23
11-11-2003, 07:44 PM
Good to see them working with his strenght (speed) and apparently ignoring his weakness (inability to ever get on base).

Sensational!

KingXerxes
11-12-2003, 09:36 AM
I wouldn't sign Alomar for more than $500,000 or so. This guy is only getting worse (while I suspect Harris will only get better), and it is obvious that the White Sox need every dime they can get their hands on.

If you let Alomar walk (rather than sign him for $2mm) then you've just saved yourself about a million and a half. Do that with a few more players, unload Ordonez and all of a sudden you've got about $10 - $15 million to go out a shore up the pitching.

Is it too late to tell Valentin that they were just kidding about picking up his option?

Randar68
11-12-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I wouldn't sign Alomar for more than $500,000 or so. This guy is only getting worse (while I suspect Harris will only get better), and it is obvious that the White Sox need every dime they can get their hands on.

If you let Alomar walk (rather than sign him for $2mm) then you've just saved yourself about a million and a half. Do that with a few more players, unload Ordonez and all of a sudden you've got about $10 - $15 million to go out a shore up the pitching.

Is it too late to tell Valentin that they were just kidding about picking up his option?

Alomar makes Valentin a better fielder and he will put up a good OBP, actually lay down a bunt and move runners over, and generally acts as a spark-plug. The Sox, outside of signing Castillo, will not have that without Alomar.

Robby's range ain't what it used to be, but he still makes Jimenez look like a sloth. His fluidity and defensive intensity is contageous. 2 Million? I'd do that in a heartbeat unless I were willing to sign Castillo.

Heck, I still can't believe they excercized Jose's option for 5 million! They could have spent THAT money on Castillo and spent 2-3 million on a Jose-clone SS.

Man Soo Lee
11-12-2003, 11:37 AM
Who is this $2-3 million Jose-clone? ARod was the only SS in baseball with a better OPS vs. right-handers.

I'm not happy about paying $5m for a platoon player, but I don't see how we could have matched Valentin's production for less money.

voodoochile
11-12-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Who is this $2-3 million Jose-clone? ARod was the only SS in baseball with a better OPS vs. right-handers.

I'm not happy about paying $5m for a platoon player, but I don't see how we could have matched Valentin's production for less money.

Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

maurice
11-12-2003, 12:37 PM
Alomar is a significantly better option than Harris (who still has to prove that he can hit major-league pitching), but I wouldn't be in any hurry to sign Alomar for big bucks. There are several other comparable middle IFs and a handful of superior ones on the FA market right now. Nobody in their right mind would quickly snatch up Alomar (or Valentin) for big bucks (hence my "*** KW" rant).

washington
11-12-2003, 01:42 PM
I agree that the market will likely drive R. Alomar's worth lower over the next few weeks. He gained a reputation of being a head case/washed up during his Mets debacle & I think the White Sox may see him as being more valuable than anyone else does.

KingXerxes
11-12-2003, 01:53 PM
$5 million bucks spent on an aging shortstop with limited defensive skills and waning speed - to be honest with you, I don't care what his OPS is against righthanders. The guy is stale and I wish he were gone.

harwar
11-12-2003, 02:06 PM
I think that Willie Harris deserves a chance as the starting 2nd baseman.He has shown signs of being very talented if he can get the playing time.

MarkEdward
11-12-2003, 05:32 PM
As I see it, there for four options for Willie Harris entering the 2004 season. Those are:
a) get traded;
b) get outright released;
c) play a full season in AAA;
d) remain with the Sox for 2004.

I don't think he'll get traded; he's not a particularly valuable commodity at this point. He won't get released. I think I'd like to see option 'c' occur. Harris hasn't taken 500 ABs in one level since 2001 (for Bowie). I'd really like to see what he can do with a full season at AAA. Jeremy has been pointing out Harris' good walk rate throughout the minors; that's not entirely true. He had one very good year, 2000. For Delmarva in A ball, he drew 89 walks in 474 ABs. Since then, his walk totals have fallen a bit:
2001: AA Bowie, 46 BBs in 525 ABs (8.8%)
2002: AAA Charlotte, 33 BBs in 360 ABs (9.2%)
2002: Sox, 9 BBs in 163 ABs (5.5%)
2003: Charlotte, 17 BBs in 100 ABs (17%)
2003: Sox, 10 BBs in 137 ABs (7.2%)

If Harris is in our starting lineup on Opening Day next year, it may not be horrible, but we better have some damn good hitters supporting him. That means no Olivo or Rowand used as starters.