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View Full Version : Why not move Maggs?


Wanne
11-07-2003, 10:05 AM
Honestly....what could we get in return for this guy? A frontline pitcher. A couple of top-notch prospects. But the flexibility of removing $14 Large and replacing him in right with say Jose Cruz Jr (a defensive upgrade). My only concern moving Maggs is Ozzie and Frank blowing up...Frank's gone and the only big bat in the lineup is Lee.

StepsInSC
11-07-2003, 10:22 AM
I'm all for it. But other than getting Hairston Jr. and Gibbons from the Orioles it doesn't sound like anyone is wanting to pick up Magg's salary, and I'm not too keen on those two.

hold2dibber
11-07-2003, 10:55 AM
The payroll is already at $54 million for only 8 players. It seems virtually certain that 2 big $ players (Thomas, Konerko, Koch, Lee, Maggs, Valentin) will have to be dealt to keep the payroll under $60 million. With his huge '04 salary, only a few teams would even consider him (i.e., Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, Baltimore, maybe San Diego). It would be almost impossible to get full value for him based upon his giant '04 salary and the fact that he's in the last year of his contract. I'm glad I'm not KW this off season.

GregoryEtc
11-07-2003, 10:59 AM
Teams with attendance problems should not get rid of the fan favorite, imho.

KW- "I'm here today to announce that we have traded Magglio Ordonez for some draft picks and a Greg Jeffries rookie card. Oh...and we're doing away with Fireworks Night too."

CubKilla
11-07-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
But other than getting Hairston Jr. and Gibbons from the Orioles it doesn't sound like anyone is wanting to pick up Magg's salary, and I'm not too keen on those two.

Sounds like a KW deal reminiscent of the Ritchie trade.

I agree the White Sox should move Maggs but only if the return on him is acceptable. Hairston Jr. and Gibbons isn't IMHO.

Gumshoe
11-07-2003, 11:05 AM
TRADING Magglio Ordonez is organizational SUICIDE

I repeat TRADING Magglio Ordonez is organizational SUICIDE

Only people as dumb as JR and KW could dream of this. Don't be like them, please. I don't care how much he costs. We signed him already, and he's arguably the best RF in the game, all around. He's our best hitter, by far.

Win Win Win go Go Sox

I'm scared about what KW might do. Wow, shivers ...

Gumshoe

poorme
11-07-2003, 11:06 AM
The best way to puts fans in the seats is to win. You do whatever you think necessary in that regard. JR has given KW a budget number. That is his constraint. KW's only goal should be build the best team given the salary constraint.

Wanne
11-07-2003, 11:12 AM
The A's seemed to do pretty well without Giambi and his numbers. They have a solid starting rotation and good bullpen. If the sox could dump Maggs and replace him with a quality starter and Cruz Jr....I don't think that'd be organizational suicide at all.

StepsInSC
11-07-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Wanne
The A's seemed to do pretty well without Giambi and his numbers. They have a solid starting rotation and good bullpen. If the sox could dump Maggs and replace him with a quality starter and Cruz Jr....I don't think that'd be organizational suicide at all.

Buehrle, Loaiza, and Ponson(?) < Mulder, Hudson, Zito

Bobby Thigpen
11-07-2003, 11:30 AM
The A's seemed to do pretty well without Giambi and his numbers.

I got a feeling that the majority of A's fans wouldn't have minded having him back for the last two seasons when their offense has went to pot in the playoffs.

I don't understand people's obsession with moving Maggs. Sure it would free up payroll, but there other ways of doing. Trading perhaps your most valuable player over the last 4 years is not really the best way. The best way would be to deal Pauly, but that isn't going to happen.

I remember what it was like when they got rid of Harold, and think getting rid of Maggs would be an even dumber move both in PR and on the field.

Maggs is and always will be firmly on my untradeable list.

crector
11-07-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen


I don't understand people's obsession with moving Maggs. Sure it would free up payroll, but there other ways of doing. Trading perhaps your most valuable player over the last 4 years is not really the best way.



Frank is our most valuable player, at least in the hitting department.

StepsInSC
11-07-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by crector
Frank is our most valuable player, at least in the hitting department.

Now I'm probably as blind a Frank fan as anyone on these boards, but I can even admit that over the past 4 years Frank has not been our most valuable hitter...

KingXerxes
11-07-2003, 11:50 AM
The problem with trading Ordonez is that you won't get too much for him due to his contract situation. If the White Sox were paying him $5 million, and he had three years left on a deal - then you'd see some talent coming over to our end in a deal, but at $14 million and in the last year of a contract, I honestly don't think you'll get too much for him. Take a look at Manny Ramierez and Boston - irrevocable waivers! They were willing to give him away if you took on the contract. I guarantee you Texas would do the same if somebody were stupid enough to take on A Rod - but nobody is.

If they were going to trade Ordonez, the time to do it would have been before he became "big money eligible".

hold2dibber
11-07-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I don't understand people's obsession with moving Maggs. Sure it would free up payroll, but there other ways of doing. Trading perhaps your most valuable player over the last 4 years is not really the best way. The best way would be to deal Pauly, but that isn't going to happen.

It's easy to say "don't trade Maggs" but not doing so makes fielding a possible AL Central winner with a payroll of $60 million or less, very difficult. Here's what we have so far:

Line-Up:

C: Olivo $350,000
1B: PK $8 million
2B: R. Alomar $2 million (assumed)
SS: Valentin $5 million
3B: Crede $350,000
LF: Lee $7 million (guess)
CF: Rowand $350,000
RF: Maggs $14 million
DH: Frank $6 million

TOTAL: $43.05 million

Rotation:

Buehrle: $3 million (guess)
Loaiza: $4 million
Garland: $1.5 million (guess)
?
?

TOTAL: $8.5 million

Bullpen:

Marte: $500,000
Wunsch: $750,000
Wright: $500,000
Koch: $6.35 million
?
?

TOTAL: $8.1 million

Bench:

Harris: $350,000
S. Alomar: $750,000 (guess)
Miles: $350,000
?
?

TOTAL: $1.45 million

So far we have a grand total of $61.1 million. You have to trim $1.1 million and find two starting pitchers, two relievers and two bench players. You could probably fill most of those slots in-house (e.g., Rauch and Cotts/Pachecho (sp?) in the rotation, Adkins and Ginter in the pen, I have no idea who on the bench) and be at a little less than $65 million. But that would be a crap team. So how does KW go about fixing this mess?

TraderTim
11-07-2003, 12:23 PM
The organizational "goof" was that they probably never intended to have the $14 mill option year be the last on his contract. Like most teams, they are caught between declining salaries and an exisiting contract for one of their best players.

ALL teams now face this dilema, unless they believe the current soft salaries are extremely temporary: As a team owner, what do I do with a very good player who's salary is too high relative to the current salary levels? They can:

a] Trade him and get whatever they can get, thus sumping salary and gaining more team salary room

b] Renegotiate his current contract, blending the remaining contract with a longer deal, deferring a portion, thus blunting the effects of the current "over market value" portion [That is, if the player is willing to do this...]

c] Just live with the fact you, as a team, are stuck with a very over-paid player, relative to the current market, and try to work around it

d] Take the gamble and waive the player, hoping someone else thinks his current deal isn't vastly overly large

Instead of just posting meaningless comments here, how about some intelligent discussions about how all of you would solve this problem? Because every team is facing it.

Forkit!

Bobby Thigpen
11-07-2003, 12:31 PM
b] Renegotiate his current contract, blending the remaining contract with a longer deal, deferring a portion, thus blunting the effects of the current "over market value" portion [That is, if the player is willing to do this...]

That probably sounds like the most plausible solution since Maggs seems to like it in Chicago, but with this organization it's hard to tell. They may just give him the 14 mill so they can get rid of him next year and claim that he wants too much money and their "salary constraints" don't allow them to retain him. Guys in the NFL do this pretty often so the team can surround them with more talent. Maggs may be willing to go for the same kind of deal.

d) is probably not much of an option unless you're just trying to get rid of him. I'm pretty sure that someone would pony up the 14 mill for one year (Yankees). I have a feeling Maggs would be gone if they did that.

I think the best option would be for Maggs to rework his contract to make it longer and more viable for the team to support a winner. He seems like the kind of guy that may do that. If they haven't tried it maybe that would be the course of action.

Deadguy
11-07-2003, 12:36 PM
I say keep him around for 2004, because we probably won't get impact players in return for Magglio, and we are a borderline playoff calibre team as it is.

IMO, Magglio's production in 2004 > prospects.

If we can get an impact player for Magglio, then pull the trigger.

If not, try and sign Magglio long-term, and if he rejects, just let him leave via FA.

More than likely, teams will be reluctant to give up a lot for Magglio, if they know they can just wait a year and sign him via FA.

maurice
11-07-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Sure it would free up payroll, but there other ways of doing. Trading perhaps your most valuable player over the last 4 years is not really the best way. The best way would be to deal Pauly, but that isn't going to happen.

How is trading Konerko (an "option" you concede is impossible) the best way to reduce payroll? You apparently recognize that KW needs to make a move, criticize a proposed move, suggest a ficticious move, and offer no actual alternatives. Unfortunately, the Sox need to make all player moves in the real world.

There is an outside chance that Maggs might agree to defer some of his 2004 salary, but he will not agree to reduce it. This happens in the NFL, only because their contracts are not guaranteed, and not because NFL players are greats guys who want to help their team win.

I remember what it was like when they got rid of Harold, and think getting rid of Maggs would be an even dumber move both in PR and on the field.

Harold (my favorite player) was traded for a very good, young starting pitcher and a Hall of Fame outfielder. While there may have been PR blowback, the Sox clearly won that trade. If KW gets offered a similar deal for Maggs, he should jump all over it.

IIRC, Harold was traded from a very bad Sox team. The next season, the Sox won 90+ games.

Iwritecode
11-07-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
...fielding a possible AL Central winner with a payroll of $60 million or less, very difficult.

This statement is pretty much true no matter what.


Originally posted by hold2dibber
So how does KW go about fixing this mess?

Slip something into JR's coffee so that somebody else (preferably someone who actually cares about winning more than profit) can take over the team.

There's no way this organization has the brains to field a championship team for under $60 million...

jabrch
11-07-2003, 01:32 PM
The worst case scenario to me is to see Mags stay this year, us not field a competitive team because of our constraints, and then Mags bolt to go somewhere in the offseason and we get nothing in return. Therefore, I see only a few solutions (mostly discussed prev.)

1) Work with him NOW to restructure his deal. Take the 1 year at 14 and make it 5 years at 10. We probably could live with that. Then, locked down to an affordable long term deal, I would not really consider trading him unless the PERFECT deal came up.

2) Trade him now - get the most we can in return and let it go at that. Try to bring him back next year - but that almost never happens. Instead, cut the 14mm this year, get young talent that is major league ready and is under rookie contracts still. I don't like the Orioles names mentioned, but I do like the Yankees names. In this scenario, the bonus would be to stuff Konerko or Koch into a deal. Then we go from freeing up 14mm to freeing up over 20mm. Now we can afford to go after a legit #1 starter (Pettite, Colon, Milwood, etc.) AND to still chase Ponson as a mid-rotation guy.

Both options have to be considered. I wouldn't trade Mags unless we got something for him, but at the same time, I'd hate to see him allowed to walk away for no compensation. IMHO, if we don't have him locked down under contract by Winter Meetings, I'd start to really consider shopping him harder than they are.

Frank the Tank
11-07-2003, 01:33 PM
Trading Mags would be a PR disaster for the Sox. The organization is working very hard to fill the seats (U.S. Cell renovations, hiring of Ozzie Guillen, etc..), the last thing they need to do is trade Magglio. The reason KW can only afford to spend 60mil is because he only has a 23,000 avg. attendance revenue to work with. People can argue about revenue sharing and TV contracts all they want, but KW just doesn't have the money that almost everyone on this website wants him to spend. By keeping fan favorites in sox pinstripes and giving fans a reason to come back to the cell, isn't that more important to the long-term success of the franchise than two players in a Mags trade? Think of how much more money would be allowed in the payroll budget if Avg. attendance was raised just 5,000.

JasonC23
11-07-2003, 03:50 PM
If only the Sox had recently had some events that could bring in more money, like hosting an All-Star game or having a team fighting for a division crown until late in the season...

cornball
11-07-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
It's easy to say "don't trade Maggs" but not doing so makes fielding a possible AL Central winner with a payroll of $60 million or less, very difficult. Here's what we have so far:

Line-Up:

C: Olivo $350,000
1B: PK $8 million
2B: R. Alomar $2 million (assumed)
SS: Valentin $5 million
3B: Crede $350,000
LF: Lee $7 million (guess)
CF: Rowand $350,000
RF: Maggs $14 million
DH: Frank $6 million

TOTAL: $43.05 million

Rotation:

Buehrle: $3 million (guess)
Loaiza: $4 million
Garland: $1.5 million (guess)
?
?

TOTAL: $8.5 million

Bullpen:

Marte: $500,000
Wunsch: $750,000
Wright: $500,000
Koch: $6.35 million
?
?

TOTAL: $8.1 million

Bench:

Harris: $350,000
S. Alomar: $750,000 (guess)
Miles: $350,000
?
?

TOTAL: $1.45 million

So far we have a grand total of $61.1 million. You have to trim $1.1 million and find two starting pitchers, two relievers and two bench players. You could probably fill most of those slots in-house (e.g., Rauch and Cotts/Pachecho (sp?) in the rotation, Adkins and Ginter in the pen, I have no idea who on the bench) and be at a little less than $65 million. But that would be a crap team. So how does KW go about fixing this mess?

Dibber this is a great post!

61 million and this team doesnt make the playoffs either, as is. If this budget holds there will be a shake up that is for certain. My guess is they hold on to Maggs unless the floor falls out in June and then trade him to a condender to save money.

gosox41
11-07-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
TRADING Magglio Ordonez is organizational SUICIDE

I repeat TRADING Magglio Ordonez is organizational SUICIDE



Gumshoe

What was that you were saying?? :D:

JDP
11-07-2003, 11:03 PM
Ah yes, the topic that divides the Sox faithful in half.

awesomefan
11-08-2003, 11:41 PM
Magglio is an awesome player & I LOVE MAGGLIO.

I want to keep almost all of the current players & wish the best for Ozzie as manager.

I vote don't trade Magglio!!!!