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View Full Version : Has Sox Management Painted themselves in a corner?


cornball
11-06-2003, 04:06 PM
With all the talk about holding payroll to approximately 60 million, and and having 8 players signed for 54 million, poses a real problem.

There appears to be several issues. The organization stance has been they will not increase spending to appropriate levels until attendance increases. The organization talks of "grinder" type players and playing the game "right" and doing the little things. Yet continues to bring back players accused of not doing the things asked for.

If this budget holds true, several players will have to go like Maggs and Lee.

It is a shame management cant sign players that actually will put new people in the seats. Will Valentin put new people in the seats? No, but he will take nearly 10% of your budget. I just wonder if the look at the economics of the signings. For example if spending and extra million or 2 for Kas...how much would he generate in return.

Seeems to me with the budget proposed, players signed and words spoken ...that they have painted themselves in a corner of hypocrosy. Sorry for the length, needed to vent.

nasox
11-06-2003, 04:12 PM
they always paint themselves in a corner. And they talk of change but, IMO, they can't change without an increase of payroll or another rebuilding process (ugh). But, they did have to sign Valentin, because I don't think they have another SS in the organization above AA and they don't want to waive money at a big name free agent playing at SS. All I can do is be optimistic, although nowadays, even that is getting hard to do.

Tekijawa
11-06-2003, 04:30 PM
I would have liked to have brought back Graffinino as our full time SS, that guy is always Clutch with the bat and I think much less of a Liability at short... I think much of Jose's defensive improvement this past year had to do with Crede's Range. How many times did Joe Scoop the Ball up with Jose diving right behind him??? That's probably a 3-4 Million Dollar difference when you pick up graff instead, and when your payroll is not to exceed 60 Mil 3-4 Milllion is HUGE!

KingXerxes
11-06-2003, 04:42 PM
I'm not sure that the term "painted themselves into a corner" is strong enough for the way I feel this is headed. I think something more like "nailed their own feet to the floor while standing in the corner" is more like it. i do not like the way this is evolving.

thezeker
11-06-2003, 04:48 PM
The Sox simply got caught in a bad year on the market for shortstops. They could have taken a chance that they might sign Valentin for less but if someone else picked him up they could have been without a SS.

Although I am not crazy about the deal I must say Valentin was an above average SS the last half of the year.

I think it may be time that he bats exclusively form the left side. He should try it in spring training and see what the results are. I think it could possibly make a big difference. Maybe more K's but also more power and RBI's. :cool:

bobj4400
11-06-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I'm not sure that the term "painted themselves into a corner" is strong enough for the way I feel this is headed. I think something more like "nailed their own feet to the floor while standing in the corner" is more like it. i do not like the way this is evolving.

If Ozzie keeps opening his mouth and inserting his foot (and I think the past week has shown us that he will), "complete and total implosion" may be the most apt term for what is about to happen.

joecrede
11-06-2003, 05:15 PM
Sorry, but I'm not willing to lock Matsui in to a 4-year $20-25M deal.

cornball
11-06-2003, 05:23 PM
The FA market is said to be slim for SS, but do you panic 2 weeks into the offseason. The Dodgers and Angels are looking for help at the position, not sure of others.

This situation scares me. Spend the money on pitching. This signing today shows me we are on the wrong path.

MRKARNO
11-06-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by cornball
The FA market is said to be slim for SS, but do you panic 2 weeks into the offseason.

If they didnt excercize the option by monday, they would have to have paid the buyout

ondafarm
11-06-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I'm not sure that the term "painted themselves into a corner" is strong enough for the way I feel this is headed. I think something more like "nailed their own feet to the floor while standing in the corner" is more like it. i do not like the way this is evolving.

. . . is that White Sox management was bricked into the corner (of the wall.) That starts at the top.

ondafarm
11-06-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Sorry, but I'm not willing to lock Matsui in to a 4-year $20-25M deal.

My contacts tell me that Iguchi, the SS-2B of the Japan Series champs is looking for more like $2-3/yr for 2-3 years, with mutual options.

StepsInSC
11-06-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
My contacts tell me that Iguchi, the SS-2B of the Japan Series champs is looking for more like $2-3/yr for 2-3 years, with mutual options.

Yes but is it looking like Daiei is going to post him? He's said he's not going to fight them if they don't.

CubKilla
11-07-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I would have liked to have brought back Graffinino as our full time SS, that guy is always Clutch with the bat and I think much less of a Liability.

Graffenino is only clutch when he comes off of the bench. His numbers wouldn't be much better than Valentin's if he was given the everyday SS job.

basilesox
11-07-2003, 12:54 AM
I think that the Whitesox feel that the AL Central is still pretty weak and that they have the talent to compete with pretty much the same cast that they had last year.

And their right. The Whitesox had more talent than anyone in the division last year. But Minnesota just seems to want it more than the Sox. And trust me getting rid of one of the only players on the team that plays hard (Valentin) would have only made us worse.

Its funny though, you would think that after the all star game on the Southside last year, Reinsdorf would have extra money from extra season tickets they may have sold, maybe some TV revenue (IF they received any, I dont know) from the game, after all it was played at their home park. I would think that Reinsdorf would have some money to raise the payroll a bit more.

RichH55
11-07-2003, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by cornball
The FA market is said to be slim for SS, but do you panic 2 weeks into the offseason. The Dodgers and Angels are looking for help at the position, not sure of others.

This situation scares me. Spend the money on pitching. This signing today shows me we are on the wrong path.



SS is important.....Valentin is not Arod, but he certainly is better than the Royce Claytons of the world.



I would love to spend more on pitching....dealing Koch and Konerko is part and parcel to that desire...and that has been evident for awhile

I think a pitching staff of Buerhle, Loaiza, Ponson, Garland, and Hitchcock is the best case scenario....and frankly that doesn't strike me as bad...

Bullpen should be solid as well

cornball
11-07-2003, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
SS is important.....Valentin is not Arod

Thanks, for clearing that up. LOL

crector
11-07-2003, 05:21 AM
So the Sox management has painted itself into a corner.

What else is new?

bc2k
11-07-2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Bullpen should be solid as well

I think the bullpen could easily be the worst part of the 2004 team. As it is currently comprised, it is definately the worst part of the team.

I'm betting Schoeneweis will be in the rotation since the Sox won't pay for two decent starters this offseason. That leaves us only with (I think) Wright, Wunsch, Koch, and Marte. The Sox will pick up another guy like Rick White and promote a minor leaguer to fill out the bullpen.

I hate this site (http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlb/mlbcong.htm) because it lists one-year contracts without letting viewers know how long that player is under ownership of his team. I looked up Gary Glover, who's under a one-year deal, but I have no idea whether he's a FA.

As has been said many times, signing two decent starters and Hawkins gives us a rotation that can win on any given day and prevent losing streaks, with a dominanting bullpen backing them up.

Dreaming of this bullpen: Wright, Schoeneweis, Wunsch, Glover, Hawkins, Marte. That is a dominant yet cheap bullpen and the fact that this is too expensive for the Sox shows how unreasonable our payroll is.

RichH55
11-07-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I think the bullpen could easily be the worst part of the 2004 team. As it is currently comprised, it is definately the worst part of the team.

I'm betting Schoeneweis will be in the rotation since the Sox won't pay for two decent starters this offseason. That leaves us only with (I think) Wright, Wunsch, Koch, and Marte. The Sox will pick up another guy like Rick White and promote a minor leaguer to fill out the bullpen.

I hate this site (http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlb/mlbcong.htm) because it lists one-year contracts without letting viewers know how long that player is under ownership of his team. I looked up Gary Glover, who's under a one-year deal, but I have no idea whether he's a FA.

As has been said many times, signing two decent starters and Hawkins gives us a rotation that can win on any given day and prevent losing streaks, with a dominanting bullpen backing them up.

Dreaming of this bullpen: Wright, Schoeneweis, Wunsch, Glover, Hawkins, Marte. That is a dominant yet cheap bullpen and the fact that this is too expensive for the Sox shows how unreasonable our payroll is.


I think Schoenweiss will be in the bullpen...same with Wright...both should be solid there, and at least not put up Rick White/Koch numbers

Marte is very very solid

Ginter can come up and do fine

Wunsch is solid as lefty


I don't really see a huge problem here.....not going to be the best ever, but if the Hitters hit like they should and we get good SP, this will not kill us

RichH55
11-07-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Thanks, for clearing that up. LOL


Did you see the rest of the post? The point being of all the moves that will hamstring(sic?) this organization, this would be way way down the list

Or are you hoping for th return or Royce Clayton so that he and PK can be the bizzaro Bash Brothers?

surfdudes
11-07-2003, 10:10 AM
Thomas will probably hit 40 homers again next year, but for 4 million less you could get 70% of his production. How far apart were K.W. and Jerry from signing Colon? We have runs, we need quality starts at pitching and a closer. A little glovework would help, too. I'll sacrifice some station to station power for speed and glove right now with Ozzie at the helm. Too many guys that hit the long ball, not enough guys that can score on a single from second base, or lay down a bunt.

There's no Bratwurst in San Diego

voodoochile
11-07-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by surfdudes
Thomas will probably hit 40 homers again next year, but for 4 million less you could get 70% of his production. How far apart were K.W. and Jerry from signing Colon? We have runs, we need quality starts at pitching and a closer. A little glovework would help, too. I'll sacrifice some station to station power for speed and glove right now with Ozzie at the helm. Too many guys that hit the long ball, not enough guys that can score on a single from second base, or lay down a bunt.

There's no Bratwurst in San Diego

Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

70%? That would be like worse than Konerko...

crector
11-07-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I think the bullpen could easily be the worst part of the 2004 team. As it is currently comprised, it is definately the worst part of the team.

I'm betting Schoeneweis will be in the rotation since the Sox won't pay for two decent starters this offseason. That leaves us only with (I think) Wright, Wunsch, Koch, and Marte. The Sox will pick up another guy like Rick White and promote a minor leaguer to fill out the bullpen.

I hate this site (http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/mlb/mlbcong.htm) because it lists one-year contracts without letting viewers know how long that player is under ownership of his team. I looked up Gary Glover, who's under a one-year deal, but I have no idea whether he's a FA.

As has been said many times, signing two decent starters and Hawkins gives us a rotation that can win on any given day and prevent losing streaks, with a dominanting bullpen backing them up.

Dreaming of this bullpen: Wright, Schoeneweis, Wunsch, Glover, Hawkins, Marte. That is a dominant yet cheap bullpen and the fact that this is too expensive for the Sox shows how unreasonable our payroll is.

You left out the likes of Jon Adkins and Neal Cotts, both of whom could be in the bullpen next year. As for Marte, he has expressed interest in becoming a starter next year and with his talent, he should be allowed that chance. I can easily envision him as being a 20-game winner. And Schoeneweis wants to start too. Frankly, I'd prefer having Marte and Schoeneweis start and have rookies in the bullpen over KW getting FA starters whose salary demands would lead to some of our best hitters getting traded away for salary reasons. Winning games needs a strong offense and we need to keep the good hitters that we already have in order to combine offense, defense and pitching into a winning combination.

bc2k
11-07-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by crector
You left out the likes of Jon Adkins and Neal Cotts, both of whom could be in the bullpen next year. As for Marte, he has expressed interest in becoming a starter next year and with his talent, he should be allowed that chance. I can easily envision him as being a 20-game winner. And Schoeneweis wants to start too. Frankly, I'd prefer having Marte and Schoeneweis start and have rookies in the bullpen over KW getting FA starters whose salary demands would lead to some of our best hitters getting traded away for salary reasons. Winning games needs a strong offense and we need to keep the good hitters that we already have in order to combine offense, defense and pitching into a winning combination.

Marte and Schoeneweis in the rotation is wrong on so many levels. That puts 3 rookies in the pen (Adkins, Cotts, and Ginter) who will be getting a lot of innings when Marte and Schoeneweis leave the game due to lack of stamina. Parque looks like Bartolo compared to Marte and Schoewie, as far as IP.

Who the F is going to close games under your scenario? Isn't Cotts one of the team's best starting pitching prospects? Why would you retard his development by putting him in the pen? But bottom line, Marte and Schoeneweis will help this team more in the bullpen, not the starting rotation.

I keep reading here that Marte expressed interest to start, where did he originally say that?

poorme
11-07-2003, 10:48 AM
The only success Schoeneweis has ever had has been as a reliever.

Lip Man 1
11-07-2003, 12:33 PM
I found this line interesting today and confirmed what I heard about Hawkins wanting to pitch for his "hometown" team while growing up...he's from Gary.

The Cubs and Yankees are expected to be the teams hottest after Twins free-agent reliever LaTroy Hawkins, who reportedly is looking at a three-year deal worth $10 million to $12 million.

The Sox will not even be taking a sniff at LaTroy Hawkings. You can place him in the same "dreaming" category as Tejeda and Kaz. Now if the Sox had reasonable ownership and even a median MLB team payroll (70 million) maybe...

Lip