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View Full Version : I'm liking a few things that KW has done, but really scared about his "deals"


Gumshoe
11-06-2003, 03:14 PM
Guys, at WORST we have to like the fact that they are trying to change this organization:

a) no more BS from Thomas
b) Guillen is hired
c) reward Valentin in a situation where 1 MIL might have been the only difference in not signing him

I like these things. They point out to me the fact that KW has realized that the White Sox organization over the last three years has been a failure. KW had to do with that. I applaud him for doing the above things to try to remedy that.

Now, I'm scared CRAPless of what moves they might try to pull in the future, but the division is ripe for the taking. DO NOT sign Gordon. Sign Sullivan and maybe try for LaTroy Hawkins. We can win with our talent. I'm afraid we might trade C. Lee, but I don't think so because I think KW is REAL high on him. Who knows, between KW and JR we've seen it all. I hope it turns out in a playoff appearance.

That's ALL that matters.

Gumshoe

crector
11-06-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe


a) no more BS from Thomas



What BS from Frank? He plays hard, drives in lots of runs, scores lots of runs, takes a lot of walks, and does his all for the team.

The real BS here is from unappreciative "fans" like you.

thepaulbowski
11-06-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by crector
The real BS here is from unappreciative "fans" like you.

I'm a huge Frank fan, but the guy isn't always a team player. I don't think by saying this, somebody is being "unappreciative." It is stating a fact.

Dadawg_77
11-06-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
I'm a huge Frank fan, but the guy isn't always a team player. I don't think by saying this, somebody is being "unappreciative." It is stating a fact.

You must have mist a ton of post in Gumshoe's history.

But how can a hitter be selfish? His job is to create runs, and he is one of best in doing that.

Steve Bartman
11-06-2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by crector
What BS from Frank? He plays hard, drives in lots of runs, scores lots of runs, takes a lot of walks, and does his all for the team.

The real BS here is from unappreciative "fans" like you.

Take it easy. I have read many posts of Gumshoe's, and he wants to win bad. He just has been very critical of the organization. I guess that is what separates up from Cub fans.

nasox
11-06-2003, 04:18 PM
the BS for Frank is him swinging for the fences and trying to pull the ball every time up. Granted, its the way he wants to play, but before he announced he would "swing for the fences every time up and try to set the tone" midseason in around August, he was playing great. His average was above 300, maybe around 320 and he was getting 2, 3 hits a game. His RBI totals were getting pretty high and he looked like the beast from the early 90s. Even pitchers were getting scared of him again. But then, he swings for the fences every time up, and strikes out 2 times each game. His average dipped to 260 and the only tone he set was the tone that all the Sox players had to hit a homer or they had failed. His motives to do this were good but his idea was just plain and simple stupid. Maybe Ozzie targeted Frank durning the PC because of this.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by nasox
the BS for Frank is him swinging for the fences and trying to pull the ball every time up. Granted, its the way he wants to play, but before he announced he would "swing for the fences every time up and try to set the tone" midseason in around August, he was playing great. His average was above 300, maybe around 320 and he was getting 2, 3 hits a game. His RBI totals were getting pretty high and he looked like the beast from the early 90s. Even pitchers were getting scared of him again. But then, he swings for the fences every time up, and strikes out 2 times each game. His average dipped to 260 and the only tone he set was the tone that all the Sox players had to hit a homer or they had failed. His motives to do this were good but his idea was just plain and simple stupid. Maybe Ozzie targeted Frank durning the PC because of this.

You need to go back and look at the season again. Your stats and memory of how it happened are completely wrong...

Deadguy
11-06-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
You must have mist a ton of post in Gumshoe's history.

But how can a hitter be selfish? His job is to create runs, and he is one of best in doing that.

Not to mention the fact that he has proven to be a patient hitter willing to take walks, which is the most unselfish stat of all.

I wish guys like Konerko, Lee, and Magglio(although to a lesser degree, since he's paid to drive in runs), showed more plate discipline, and learned to draw more walks.

THE_HOOTER
11-06-2003, 04:41 PM
I am not going to bash Frank Thomas because he had a pretty good year.

He didnt pout too much, and he was productive.

He does not run hard to first base--that is a fact.

He does not move runners over--that is a fact. He readily admitted that he is in "Sammy" mode--swing for the moon.

And as usual, he is awfully quiet in September.

He is extremely productive in the #3 hole, but only if he continues to walk a lot.

Deadguy
11-06-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER

He does not run hard to first base--that is a fact.

I haven't necessarilly seen evidence to this.

He does not move runners over--that is a fact. He readily admitted that he is in "Sammy" mode--swing for the moon.

Being more aggressive does not mean swinging for the moon. I never saw Thomas swing wildly like Jim Thome and Sammy Sosa do. He still provided a controlled, compacted swing.

And as usual, he is awfully quiet in September.

As usual? How many times have we even been in a pennant race in September while Thomas has been here? The only years would be 1996 and 2003.

In 1996, he hit 11 homers and won player of the month award, so I'd hardly say he didn't show up or is to blame for us falling short in the race for the wild card.

This year, he struggled in a 3 game series in Minnesota, not the entire month.

thezeker
11-06-2003, 05:01 PM
Let's just hope that just as Loaiza matured into a fine pitcher last year Big Frank has mellowed with age and will mature into a true team player and all around better human being.

His bat will always be an asset but his leadership could really help Ozzie and the SOX!!!

nasox
11-06-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You need to go back and look at the season again. Your stats and memory of how it happened are completely wrong...

Well, after what happened in September, Ive tried hard to forget it. Still, this is how I remember it, but i will check the charts again.

poorme
11-06-2003, 05:08 PM
It's clear to anyone who has watched Frank for his whole career that his approach at the plate is totally different than it was 8-10 years ago.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by poorme
It's clear to anyone who has watched Frank for his whole career that his approach at the plate is totally different than it was 8-10 years ago.

Yes, because opposing teams started busting him inside and the umps started calling it a strike. So he adapted and changed his stance to give him a better chance on inside pitches. Then they started to pitch him away, so he was forced once again to alter his stance (this time slightly) which gives him a chance to catch up to outer half stuff and drive it up the middle.

Because he has a better look and feel for inside pitches, he has a better homerun swing than he had before. He is getting the bat head out and pulling the ball hard - something he didn't do as effectively in his younger years.

The game has adapted to him and he has adapted to those changes.

Will Frank ever be the Frank from 1994? I don't know and to be honest, I sincerely doubt it. Can he be an effective hitter with his new system and given the constraints of age and league knowledge? Yes, definitely. He has proven that in both 2000 and 2003 his last two completely healthy seasons.

Here's hoping that Frank continues to work on his new stance and comes to ST settled and ready to do some damage. If he builds on last years numbers (no reason to expect differently since he didn't change his stance until mid-May and then had to change it again in August) then we are all in for a treat and the guys who want to rip on him for whatever reason will finally have to ****...

poorme
11-06-2003, 05:27 PM
It doesn't take 11 years to figure out a hitter's weaknesses.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by poorme
It doesn't take 11 years to figure out a hitter's weaknesses.

No, he started to struggle with the inside pitch in 1998. Combined with his injurys and personal problems he had a couple of off years (by his standards). Then in 2000 he changed his stance in May or June - after watching Andres Galaraga hit with the open stance - and then went on a tear.

Frank used to get more calls on the inside corner and then stopped getting them in 1998 and 1999. At one point he blew up claiming the umps were out to get him. It was obvious that the umps weren't giving him calls like they used to. I think the umps are right, and am not going to debate that point. Frank finally adapted. He didn't use the open stance in 2002 when he came back from the injury. He started using it again this past year.

poorme
11-06-2003, 05:42 PM
The open stance isn't the change of relevance, it's the upper-cut and no longer making contact in front of the plate. I'd gladly take the Frank of 2000. He just doesn't realize he's strong enough to drive liners out of the park to any field.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 05:57 PM
I haven't seen him hit one out to right field in years. Maybe he has, but I'm guessing you could count them on one hand. The closest he comes is just to the right of the batters eye. But back in the day he used to just muscle pop ups over the right field wall where the bullpen is.

Gumshoe
11-06-2003, 06:05 PM
First off, I would like to say that this thread is really a solid one. Thanks for posts on both sides, you have good points.

SteveBartman, thanks for getting my back. Frank is one of the greatest hitters the game has ever seen. He still produces. But he has lacked in things that contribute to the winning of his team, later in his career. This has to do with:

a) the organization
b) how the media has handled him, and vice versa
c) He never was a leader, and now they ask him for this, and he doesn't keep his mouth shut

= HIS MENTAL ATTITUDE

So many critics of Frank know he is a GREAT HITTER. The thing is, it's all mental with him. All his disturbances, all were mental. He doesn't hit well on the road for mental reasons. Kudos to the man that posted earlier that he hasn't seen Frank hit a homer to RF in a long long time. I was a seasons tix guy, and let me tell you, I saw him hit ONE double to Right Center this eyar, and it was the Friday of the first game against KC after we finished up with Minne and our season was gone.

He isn't the same hitter.

As Bartman said, I wanna win bad. I'll give credit when it is due. Just tell me though, did we make the playoffs? Did we win the pennant? RESULTS, please. No one remembers who won the ALDS or NLDS, they remember who the league champions are and who the WS champs are. Why shouldn't I be critical of the organization when they have done some really really dumb things.

As an optimist though, I started this thread to point out that I like at least a bit the message that KW is sending. But for me to praise him, he's gotta take us to the playoffs. Is that SO wrong?

Gumshoe

Lip Man 1
11-06-2003, 08:48 PM
Folks with respect why are both sides getting upset over a 35 year old player who is going to be gone in two years anyway?

Now if he was 25 I could see getting worked up but the fact is that while Frank is still productive his best days are far behind him.

Lip

StepsInSC
11-06-2003, 08:58 PM
I don't remember Thomas ever being over .300 at any point last season. Am I wrong?

MRKARNO
11-06-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I don't remember Thomas ever being over .300 at any point last season. Am I wrong?

:sahaf

".300? What are you talking about he was over .600 the entire season"

MisterB
11-06-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I don't remember Thomas ever being over .300 at any point last season. Am I wrong?

Past the 2nd game of the season, Thomas' average peaked at .288 . When interleague play started and Frank was playing first, he got his avg, up from .254 to .288 in a week. It stayed between .275 and .287 until Konerko was put back at first for the disasterous Rays/Tigers/Indians road trip before the All-Star break. Thomas hit .352 last season when he was playing in the field.

frickin' idiot - - - - - - - - - - > :jerry

Gumshoe
11-06-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
:sahaf

".300? What are you talking about he was over .600 the entire season"

KARNO, I just ***** ... that is a GREAT GREAT post. Cheers.

Mister8, you don't think KW and JR have been using JM as a puppet? The blame goes UP TOP. THEY ALONE are responsible for how the team is run.

Gumshoe

CubKilla
11-07-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I haven't seen him hit one out to right field in years. Maybe he has, but I'm guessing you could count them on one hand. The closest he comes is just to the right of the batters eye. But back in the day he used to just muscle pop ups over the right field wall where the bullpen is.

Great point. Altered stances, inside strikes aside..... Frank was at his best when he hit the ball with regularity to all fields. Now, everything is pulled to LF/CF and the opposing OF's can adjust that way.

MisterB
11-07-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
MisterB, you don't think KW and JR have been using JM as a puppet? The blame goes UP TOP. THEY ALONE are responsible for how the team is run.

I guarantee JR isn't making out the lineup card or making the calls to the bullpen. I actually think a large part of Manuel's problem was that he was trying too hard to be his own man, and one of the few ways he could assert his authority was to constantly mess with the lineups and micromanage the bullpen. The whole drama concerning the coaching staff is another example. I sincerely believe it was 100% Manuel's call whether Thomas or Konerko played first. And the fact that he replaced a guy who hit .352/.487/.725 at first base with guy hitting .184/.258/.278 at the time makes him a FRICKIN' IDIOT.

gosox41
11-07-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by nasox
the BS for Frank is him swinging for the fences and trying to pull the ball every time up. Granted, its the way he wants to play, but before he announced he would "swing for the fences every time up and try to set the tone" midseason in around August, he was playing great. His average was above 300, maybe around 320 and he was getting 2, 3 hits a game. His RBI totals were getting pretty high and he looked like the beast from the early 90s. Even pitchers were getting scared of him again. But then, he swings for the fences every time up, and strikes out 2 times each game. His average dipped to 260 and the only tone he set was the tone that all the Sox players had to hit a homer or they had failed. His motives to do this were good but his idea was just plain and simple stupid. Maybe Ozzie targeted Frank durning the PC because of this.

You must have some selected memory there. I can't remember Frank's average being much higher then .270 over the course of the season, let alone at .320.

Any other "recollections" you wish to share with the group???

:D:

Bob

poorme
11-07-2003, 07:09 PM
A few posts up it was reported that Frank got it up to .287.

Deadguy
11-07-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by poorme
A few posts up it was reported that Frank got it up to .287.

Yes. Well, technically, Thomas got it up to .288 on June 8th, and then had it at .287 on July 2 and July 5.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=4527

joepoe
11-11-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Guys, at WORST we have to like the fact that they are trying to change this organization:

a) no more BS from Thomas
b) Guillen is hired
c) reward Valentin in a situation where 1 MIL might have been the only difference in not signing him

Gumshoe

a) 42 taters and over 100 RBI's are so much BS! I hate it! I wish he would hit less.

b) Guillen works cheap, that is why he was hired. He has already proven he is a loose cannon. Enjoy the dissension he causes this year.

c) Reward Valentin for poor situational hittiing and a .230 average? Basically a platoon player? Our priorities are upside down on this team!!