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View Full Version : *** KW? (rant)


maurice
11-06-2003, 12:10 PM
I've been as big a KW supporter as anybody here, but I'm really getting sick of his periodic *** move. I gave him the benefit of the doubt early on (Ritchie, Clayton, Berry/Barry) . . . I let him off the hook on the JM situation and promise to give Guillen a chance . . . I even gave him a free pass on the Koch trade because of its proximity to the Colon trade . . . but this contract stuff is KILLING me.

A team with a tight budget can't afford to make mistakes on multi-million dollar deals. First, he gave Konerko and Koch deals that were commiserate with their career years and not their career norms. Now, he gives Valentin $5 mil when there is no way in heck he'd get more than HALF that much on the open market. Barring an unlikely, blockbuster trade, we're certain to have a less talented team in 2004 than the team that came up short in 2003.

I appreciate that KW wants to focus on the pitching staff, but we've gone into the offseason needing to upgrade at least one middle IF spot for as long as I can remember. We're still waiting for an actual upgrade. Now, it looks like we'll be waiting until Rob Valido is ready. That's completely unacceptable.

hold2dibber
11-06-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I've been as big a KW supporter as anybody here, but I'm really getting sick of his periodic *** move. I gave him the benefit of the doubt early on (Ritchie, Clayton, Berry/Barry) . . . I let him off the hook on the JM situation and promise to give Guillen a chance . . . I even gave him a free pass on the Koch trade because of its proximity to the Colon trade . . . but this contract stuff is KILLING me.

A team with a tight budget can't afford to make mistakes on multi-million dollar deals. First, he gave Konerko and Koch deals that were commiserate with their career years and not their career norms. Now, he gives Valentin $5 mil when there is no way in heck he'd get more than HALF that much on the open market. Barring an unlikely, blockbuster trade, we're certain to have a less talented team in 2004 than the team that came up short in 2003.

I appreciate that KW wants to focus on the pitching staff, but we've gone into the offseason needing to upgrade at least one middle IF spot for as long as I can remember. We're still waiting for an actual upgrade. Now, it looks like we'll be waiting until Rob Valido is ready. That's completely unacceptable.

I completely agree. This off season has gotten off to a lousy start. Valentin is adequate, but in this market, he is a $2 - $3 million player, at most. I am more convinced than ever that Magglio is going to be traded.

KingXerxes
11-06-2003, 12:23 PM
I agree.

soxtalker
11-06-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I completely agree. This off season has gotten off to a lousy start. Valentin is adequate, but in this market, he is a $2 - $3 million player, at most. I am more convinced than ever that Magglio is going to be traded.

Well, then, why all the media reports that the SS FA crop was so thin and that Valentin would indeed command the $4.5M that he'd get by staying here? (He would have gotten the other $0.5 from the Sox either way to make a total of $5M.) I also am not crazy about giving him $5M, but it sure looked like Valentin was quite willing to walk for anything less.

As I said in another thread, this does not mean that we have to keep Valentin (though that is most likely). If he is perceived as being so valuable, and we can find another suitable alternative, he can be traded.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 01:54 PM
Maurice,

I disagree. If we can find a competent SS who can hit lefties better than Valentin, then we have a collectively outstanding shortstop for around 5 million. Seeing what some other at that position make, I think it's a bargain.

You're right, we're sure to field a less talented team next year, but that's not guaranteed to be a bad thing. It's all about attitude with this team. Take the April 2003 Sox without Alomar, Everett, or Sullivan and they're still plenty good enough to win the division. But they were sluggish and complacent and overall not into the game. If Ozzie can instill a (cliche time) sense of urgency and get us out of the gate quickly, we won't miss whomever we've lost by then.

My only qualms are we have to set the bullpen and retain Alomar (if not get another leadoff hitter). And we cannot have Willie Harris be the only option at any spot on the field. So long as we do this and Ozzie does the above, we should have a good year.

jeremyb1
11-06-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Well, then, why all the media reports that the SS FA crop was so thin and that Valentin would indeed command the $4.5M that he'd get by staying here? (He would have gotten the other $0.5 from the Sox either way to make a total of $5M.) I also am not crazy about giving him $5M, but it sure looked like Valentin was quite willing to walk for anything less.

I've yet to see anyone reliable state in the media that Valentin will get 5 million. You have to understand that's an incredible amount of money in this market. Aurillia won't command much more than 3.5 or 4 and while in actuality he's no better than Valentin, I get the feeling GMs rate him much higher.

maurice
11-06-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
You're right, we're sure to field a less talented team next year, but that's not guaranteed to be a bad thing. It's all about attitude with this team.

I agree that talent does not necessarily equal wins. However, subtracting Everett, Colon, Gordon, Sullivan, and (probably) Lee or Ordonez without adding a talented, up-the-middle player and/or a genuine ace starting pitcher necessarily makes this a worse team, IMHO. I think KW would concede that the subtracted players did not have a bad attitude.

Right now, it looks like the Sox intend to field a 2004 team that looks something like this:

C - Olivo and Alomar
1B - Konerko and Thomas
2B - Alomar OR cheapo FA
SS - Valentin and Graffy
3B - Crede
OF - Rowand, Harris, Borchard, Reed, and Ordonez OR Lee
SP - Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, cheapo FA, and Schoenweis
RP - Marte, Koch, Wunsch, Wright, and Ginter

You can expect some of the younger players (e.g., Crede, Olivo) to get a bit better and some of the older players (e.g., Loaiza, Alomars) to get a bit worse. The rest probably will be about the same. IMHO, that's worse than the (inadequate) 2003 Sox.

KW will need to do a bloody great job from here on out to convince me otherwise.

hold2dibber
11-06-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Well, then, why all the media reports that the SS FA crop was so thin and that Valentin would indeed command the $4.5M that he'd get by staying here? (He would have gotten the other $0.5 from the Sox either way to make a total of $5M.) I also am not crazy about giving him $5M, but it sure looked like Valentin was quite willing to walk for anything less.

First of all, just cuz the media says it doesn't make it so. The fact is, the SS market apparently will include at least three SSs likely to be perceived as worth more $ than Jose - Iquchi, Matsui and Tejada. Aurilia is likely to be perceived as about as valuable as Jose, I would guess. The rest are mostly bottom feeders. Thus, Jose was probably viewed as the 5th best SS out there. IMHO, the 5th best SS this summer will get way less than $5 million/year. Take a close look at what Aurilia ends up getting. I'm guessing between $2.5 and $3.5 mm. I think Jose would have been unlikely to do better than that.

dougs78
11-06-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I've been as big a KW supporter as anybody here, but I'm really getting sick of his periodic *** move. I gave him the benefit of the doubt early on (Ritchie, Clayton, Berry/Barry) . . . I let him off the hook on the JM situation and promise to give Guillen a chance . . . I even gave him a free pass on the Koch trade because of its proximity to the Colon trade . . . but this contract stuff is KILLING me.

A team with a tight budget can't afford to make mistakes on multi-million dollar deals. First, he gave Konerko and Koch deals that were commiserate with their career years and not their career norms. Now, he gives Valentin $5 mil when there is no way in heck he'd get more than HALF that much on the open market. Barring an unlikely, blockbuster trade, we're certain to have a less talented team in 2004 than the team that came up short in 2003.

I appreciate that KW wants to focus on the pitching staff, but we've gone into the offseason needing to upgrade at least one middle IF spot for as long as I can remember. We're still waiting for an actual upgrade. Now, it looks like we'll be waiting until Rob Valido is ready. That's completely unacceptable.


Dead on correct. these are the signings that bite us in the ass. the posts below me are very correct also. From all reports, (granted, they are speculation, not fact) it sounds like the market is going to be depressed again this year. It sounds like particularly low for anything other than top starters. I'd be willing to bet that by the time February comes around we're going to be amazed with what we could have gotten for those 5 million dollars.