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View Full Version : Ozzie Pursues His Vendetta Against Frank


crector
11-06-2003, 01:14 AM
Source:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20031105&content_id=599481&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha


Ozzie's at it again, dumping on the Sox's best player in public, this time on the team's official website.

Quoth Ozzie:

ďThereís nothing for me to say negative about Frank because I havenít seen him in six years. Iím saying what I hear, and I donít like what I hear. What I have been hearing about Frank is he has been negative, moody ... all sorts of different things."

Evidently, Guillen thinks that dumping on Frank in public like that does not help make him "negative, moody." Also, why could he not wait until he could observe Frank in person before jumping to conclusions based on nothing more than rumor, gossip and innuendo?

Also, from the article:

"But Sandy Alomar, Jr., who expects to end his free agency soon and come back to the White Sox as a reserve catcher, issued a warning not to be too quick to judge the 42-home run, 105-RBI slugger from 2003.

ďYou canít anticipate Frank is a problem because thatís what gets Frank upset a lot of times,Ē said Alomar. ďGive everyone the opportunity to have a clean slate.

ďHe gets accused of so many things, and thatís what seems to put Frank in a bad mood. To an extent, Frank can be a kid. But if you know how to handle him, you get the best out of him.Ē

Alomar mentioned that there were plenty of occasions during the 2003 season where Thomas sat down in the clubhouse and talked to other players about the game and baseball, in general. Thomas basically stood up alone for DíAngleo Jimenez, the teamís much-maligned second baseman, before he was reassigned."

Sounds like Alomar should have been the new manager, instead of Ozzie, doesn't it? Let's hope that Guillen gets a clue from Alomar and puts an end to this nonsense right away.

doublem23
11-06-2003, 01:31 AM
Wonderful!

RKMeibalane
11-06-2003, 08:00 AM
If Guillen honestly belives this kind of talk is produtive, then he's out of his mind. He has been the manager for all of three days, and he's already started this crap. At least Jerry Manuel waited until the season had actually started.

Seesh! Can the Sox organization do anything without managing to make themselves look stupid in the process?

kraut83
11-06-2003, 08:04 AM
Somebody mentioned this yesterday, but it would be great to have Sandy back just based on his clubhouse presence alone.

Nick@Nite
11-06-2003, 08:36 AM
Too bad Ozzie didn't explain his expectations to Frank in private, and simply steered clear of Franks supposed attitude. Then Ozzie could have used blanket cliche's about the players giving 100%, team first, etc. when the media came calling.

Or, maybe Ozzie already talked to Frank about expectations. If so, it still would have been best for the Oz to keep the subject under the radar in regards to the media. At least for now.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20031105&content_id=599481&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha

Despite the sub headline, it would have been sneaky (and wise, imo) for Ozzie to have talked to Frank first, then use the media, while saying he will do otherwise.

hold2dibber
11-06-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by crector
Source:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20031105&content_id=599481&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha


Ozzie's at it again, dumping on the Sox's best player in public, this time on the team's official website.

Quoth Ozzie:

ďThereís nothing for me to say negative about Frank because I havenít seen him in six years. Iím saying what I hear, and I donít like what I hear. What I have been hearing about Frank is he has been negative, moody ... all sorts of different things."

Evidently, Guillen thinks that dumping on Frank in public like that does not help make him "negative, moody." Also, why could he not wait until he could observe Frank in person before jumping to conclusions based on nothing more than rumor, gossip and innuendo?

Ozzie might be motivated, he might "bleed White Sox" and he might be passionate about "playing the game right" - but if he thinks creating Frank-related controversy for no particular reason (Frank hasn't done anything!) he's an absolute moron. I'm afraid we're going to have a TON of this crap - self-created controversy resulting from Ozzie's big mouth. Ugh.

cheeses_h_rice
11-06-2003, 09:30 AM
:moron

It's amazing what fifty bones placed stealthily in someone's back pocket will get you!

poorme
11-06-2003, 09:38 AM
It seems to me KW and Guillen spent considerable time talking about Thomas. They HAVE to be on the same page here.

Hangar18
11-06-2003, 09:51 AM
Ozzie needs to get a clue about managing PERSONALITIES.
Frank is the kind of guy you have to Leave alone a bit. Ozzie should know better than that, If hes going to be a GOOD MGR, hes going to have to also MANAGE PERSONALITIES. THERE isnt always a Blanket Set of Ways to deal with people.....

JJAustin69
11-06-2003, 11:06 AM
They didn't like each other as teammates. Why should anything change now? One of the reasons I was hoping for a more established manager.

phaedrus
11-06-2003, 11:18 AM
I think it's entirely possible and fairly likely that KW and Oz are simply positioning themselves with Frank. I don't think KW wants him back and would like to trade him for a few of his 'grinders'. He kept Cito's name in the media long enough for Frank to have to make his option choice on the $6 million and then started publicly leaning towards Ozzie - remember that when Frank took the option it appeared all but locked up for Cito. Now Ozzie can start making Frank uncomfortable by making these public comments so he's more willing to accept a trade. KW's job is easier because Franks' price is $2 million less. And isn't is odd that with the team meetings in Vegas last week there has been no report of anyone meeting with Frank? Another step to alienate him.

These 2 guys might be bozos but they're not stupid. I expect to see Frank traded before spring training.

ListGod
11-06-2003, 11:20 AM
Has anybody stopped to think that maybe that was a calculated move designed to get Frank to request a trade?

It would certainly work out better for the Sox to be able trade Frank than to have him skulking around because he doesn't like his new boss. Since F-Tommy already exercised his option, this is probably the only way the Sox could move him this year and we all know that somebody has to go.

This isn't that hard to imagine.

After posting this, I see that Phaedrus and I said pretty much the same thing at the same time.

cheeses_h_rice
11-06-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by phaedrus
I think it's entirely possible and fairly likely that KW and Oz are simply positioning themselves with Frank. I don't think KW wants him back and would like to trade him for a few of his 'grinders'. He kept Cito's name in the media long enough for Frank to have to make his option choice on the $6 million and then started publicly leaning towards Ozzie - remember that when Frank took the option it appeared all but locked up for Cito. Now Ozzie can start making Frank uncomfortable by making these public comments so he's more willing to accept a trade. KW's job is easier because Franks' price is $2 million less. And isn't is odd that with the team meetings in Vegas last week there has been no report of anyone meeting with Frank? Another step to alienate him.

These 2 guys might be bozos but they're not stupid. I expect to see Frank traded before spring training.

I'll bet you a Fresca you're completely wrong.

phaedrus
11-06-2003, 11:22 AM
about the trade attempt or about them not being completely stupid. I might take the bet on the trade but the stupid thing you'd have to give me odds on. :D:

ListGod
11-06-2003, 11:26 AM
I ran into Rick Telander downtown the other day and he says that Williams is one of the brightest executives working in professional sports today.

He also said anybody who thinks Guillen is not smart is in for a big surprise.

Telander loved this move and said years from now "it may be looked at as the turning point for this franchise"

Lip Man 1
11-06-2003, 11:29 AM
There's an old saying...where there's smoke, there's fire.

Given Ozzie's statements, given Konerko's statements and now given Valentin's statements from today's Southtown, you have to think that either a number of folks have a vendetta against Frank or the truth is starting to come out about some of the things that have been going on in the clubhouse.

I like Frank he's one of my favorite players as well as being a tremendous talent but the reality is that he's also been concerned with his stats and a head case at times. And that's fine, nobody's perfect, but the fact is that Frank is now 35, he's not going to be here five years from now and perhaps it's time to stop "kow towing" to him (for want of a better word...) because of his fragile psyche and see if perhaps some candid truth can push him to do the little things better in his remaining years with the Sox.

Maybe both sides will come out ahead of the deal.

Anyway here's Jose's comments:

We need a guy to step in front of a guy like (Thomas) and tell him how it is." (referring to Ozzie's candid comments about how Frank is going to have to play for him...)

Lip

crector
11-06-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by ListGod
I ran into Rick Telander downtown the other day and he says that Williams is one of the brightest executives working in professional sports today.

He also said anybody who thinks Guillen is not smart is in for a big surprise.

Telander loved this move and said years from now "it may be looked at as the turning point for this franchise"


I'd imagine that he probably felt the same way just a few days after Bevington was hired as the Sox manager in 1995 too........

crector
11-06-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
There's an old saying...where there's smoke, there's fire.

Given Ozzie's statements, given Konerko's statements and now given Valentin's statements from today's Southtown, you have to think that either a number of folks have a vendetta against Frank or the truth is starting to come out about some of the things that have been going on in the clubhouse.

I like Frank he's one of my favorite players as well as being a tremendous talent but the reality is that he's also been concerned with his stats and a head case at times. And that's fine, nobody's perfect, but the fact is that Frank is now 35, he's not going to be here five years from now and perhaps it's time to stop "kow towing" to him (for want of a better word...) because of his fragile psyche and see if perhaps some candid truth can push him to do the little things better in his remaining years with the Sox.

Maybe both sides will come out ahead of the deal.

Anyway here's Jose's comments:

We need a guy to step in front of a guy like (Thomas) and tell him how it is." (referring to Ozzie's candid comments about how Frank is going to have to play for him...)

Lip


Jealousy is probably a factor here. Frank's going to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, while Guillen, Konerko and Valentin all couldn't even get arrested there.......

ListGod
11-06-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by crector
I'd imagine that he probably felt the same way just a few days after Bevington was hired as the Sox manager in 1995 too........

Bevington's name didn't come up.

Next time I see him, I'll ask and let you know.

ListGod
11-06-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by crector
Jealousy is probably a factor here. Frank's going to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, while Guillen, Konerko and Valentin all couldn't even get arrested there.......


Right. I'm sure that's it. They're sitting around grousing about how they can't get in the Hall of Fame...

Pure genius. It's so obvious!

jeremyb1
11-06-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Ozzie needs to get a clue about managing PERSONALITIES.
Frank is the kind of guy you have to Leave alone a bit. Ozzie should know better than that, If hes going to be a GOOD MGR, hes going to have to also MANAGE PERSONALITIES. THERE isnt always a Blanket Set of Ways to deal with people.....

See, this is what the recent criticism of Ozzie is based on and I don't necessarily agree. I feel like in recent years Frank has performed best with a chip on his shoulder. Look at '00 where he got into it with Manuel in the spring. Manuel was certainly wrong to complain about Frank taking his injury too seriously when it turned out he was actually misinformed about the severity of the injury just as Ozzie is probably wrong to jump on Frank for his perceived attitude the last few seasons. However, that doesn't mean it will cause Frank to play poorly. Ozzie got on Frank and they didn't get along well back in the day, but Frank still played pretty well.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
See, this is what the recent criticism of Ozzie is based on and I don't necessarily agree. I feel like in recent years Frank has performed best with a chip on his shoulder. Look at '00 where he got into it with Manuel in the spring. Manuel was certainly wrong to complain about Frank taking his injury too seriously when it turned out he was actually misinformed about the severity of the injury just as Ozzie is probably wrong to jump on Frank for his perceived attitude the last few seasons. However, that doesn't mean it will cause Frank to play poorly. Ozzie got on Frank and they didn't get along well back in the day, but Frank still played pretty well.

So you are saying the argument with Manuel in ST caused Frank to have a big year, not the fact that he was finally healthy and in between major family problems as well as on a contract push to stave of the DSC forever...

Deadguy
11-06-2003, 12:52 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that KW has been trying to push Frank out the door for the last couple of years.

His comments recently about hoping to have a Nick Johnson/Paul Konerko platoon at 1B/DH, excercising the DSC, almost completing a trade to Boston, etc. confirm this.

The only reason that Frank is still wearing a White Sox uniform is because Reinsdorf has continually stepped in to keep his favorite player around.

It wouldn't entirely surprise me if KW and Guillen are conspiring to get Frank so unhappy to the point that he waives his 10/5 rights, and accepts a trade elsewhere.

It's obvious that Frank just doesn't fit into KW's master plan, and he wants Frank out of town, but since Frank can veto any trade, they have to alienate him to the point that he wants out.

There's no other reason why Ozzie would take this current strategy of publicly ridiculing Frank when we're still about 4 months away from Spring Training. What exactly is the point? If it's to try and motivate Frank, well, that seems rather useless. Frank's contract is designed so that he has to attempt to perform to the highest level, since there are millions of dollars worth of incentives for Frank to perform at peak levels. It is in Frank's best interests to keep in shape, and put up the best numbers possible.

I personally thought that it would be in Frank and the White Sox's best interests to part last off season. Frank receives much more pressure and criticism in Chicago than he would receive anywhere, and that includes New York. If Thomas went to a place like Baltimore, and put up similar numbers that he put up this year, he would become an instant fan and media favorite. In Chicago, anything short of a near MVP performance will be met with yawns.

Much like Ivan Rodriguez, a change of scenery may be what Thomas needs. He can thrive in an environment where not so much is expected of him, and he can be left alone to do as he pleases. In Chicago, he will always be the center of attention, and a target for criticism.

And as far as Rick Telender goes, that guy's opinion about baseball is pretty meaningless. He attended the same High School I went to, and even was guest of honor at a banquet that was formed by my high school baseball team to try and raise money to get some lights put around our baseball field. However, whenever I've read columns from him that are baseball related, or when I used to hear talk about baseball on the Sportswriters on Television, he always seemed aggravated to even discuss baseball. It's clear that he's more of a basketball and football fan, and his opinion about MLB carries little to no weight.

jabrch
11-06-2003, 01:02 PM
This is just a newly hired manager sending a message that he is in charge of this team. If Frank doesn't like it - tough titties. I am glad Frank is going to be back, provided he does what he is told to do by the manager. That's the bottom line here as I see it.

Frank knew when he accepted the 6mm option that the managerial options were either Ozzie or Cito. Neither was too likely to accept anything less than having it 100% their way and both would have started with the most high profile player on the team. Come on...you guys have all seen this. It happens everywhere. Stop chastizing Ozzie for doing the same thing every manager does - control his clubhouse and set a tone.

jabrch
11-06-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I personally thought that it would be in Frank and the White Sox's best interests to part last off season. Frank receives much more pressure and criticism in Chicago than he would receive anywhere, and that includes New York. If Thomas went to a place like Baltimore, and put up similar numbers that he put up this year, he would become an instant fan and media favorite. In Chicago, anything short of a near MVP performance will be met with yawns.



Have you ever lived in NYC and read the daily Yankee coverage? Frank would get TORCHED for the stuff he says/does in NYC. Chicago media treats Frank with Kid Gloves compared to what NY Media does to athletes. I can't say for Baltimore - but I can't imagine he'd get it any better than he has it here, being the Chairman's favorite player and a Chicago fan favorite as well.

crector
11-06-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Stop chastizing Ozzie for doing the same thing every manager does - control his clubhouse and set a tone.


Can you name 1 other manager who in his inaugural press conference, publicly (sp) trashed the team's best/most popular player and then kept it up during the days following that press conference?

I can't think of anybody who's done that before, not even the really outspoken types such as Leo Durocher and Mike Ditka.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by crector
Jealousy is probably a factor here. Frank's going to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, while Guillen, Konerko and Valentin all couldn't even get arrested there.......

I disagree. I'm pretty sure Konerko would be arrested for setting foot in Cooperstown.......:-)

And as Hawk would say, "as well he should be."

Deadguy
11-06-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
This is just a newly hired manager sending a message that he is in charge of this team. If Frank doesn't like it - tough titties. I am glad Frank is going to be back, provided he does what he is told to do by the manager. That's the bottom line here as I see it.

Frank knew when he accepted the 6mm option that the managerial options were either Ozzie or Cito. Neither was too likely to accept anything less than having it 100% their way and both would have started with the most high profile player on the team. Come on...you guys have all seen this. It happens everywhere. Stop chastizing Ozzie for doing the same thing every manager does - control his clubhouse and set a tone.

A good leader motivates and gets his team to perform at the highest level possible.

His current strategy is doing nothing but humiliating and alienating Frank Thomas.

I have nothing against his team concept or his ideas on team unity. However, he's going about this the wrong way.

Like Joe Morgan said about Paul Konerko's comments last year, that kind of stuff needs to be kept in the clubhouse. A good leader, which Konerko feebly attempted to be, does not go about it the way Konerko did.

We've heard all along how Ozzie is a stand up guy, and isn't afraid to confront any player. If he's got a problem with Frank, do it one on one. We don't need this type of PR.

I don't think Ozzie is wrong, and I think he's the right choice for manager, but he's still got a lot to learn about be a good leader and how to handle the Chicago media.

Of course, there is the conspiracy theory that Frank is being set up to be made so unhappy that he waives his 10/5 rights, and I do think that is entirely possible.

If he's got a problem with the way Thomas performs on or off the field, talk to him about it one on one. Airing out your grievances to the public perhaps alienates Thomas more and gives him legitimate reasons to be disruptive, and makes him very unpopular in the eyes of the fans.

If after talking with Frank one on one, Frank remains disruptive, then Ozzie is justifiable in going to the media to complain about Thomas, because then humiliating him publicly may be the only way to cause him to change his ways.

But right now, he has been on the job for just a few days, and I think he's failing miserably at handling this.

Thomas has yet to do anything wrong, so get off his back. Plus, anyone who actually followed the Sox last year, which Ozzie obviously didn't, knows that Thomas was the least of the problems on this team. He was productive and an asset to the team overall.

Deadguy
11-06-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Have you ever lived in NYC and read the daily Yankee coverage? Frank would get TORCHED for the stuff he says/does in NYC. Chicago media treats Frank with Kid Gloves compared to what NY Media does to athletes. I can't say for Baltimore - but I can't imagine he'd get it any better than he has it here, being the Chairman's favorite player and a Chicago fan favorite as well.

I disagree.

In NYC, Thomas is just another spoke in the wheel.

Guys like Sierra, Fielder, Strawberry, etc., all went through there without getting torched.

Thomas wouldn't be going there to be looked upon as a savior, and he wouldn't be singled out for any particular reason, like he is in Chicago.

In New York, there are countless other players to shoulder the blame. There's Giambi, Williams, Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Matsui, etc.

All these players make more than Thomas, and Thomas would not be expected at any time to carry the team, like he is supposed to do in Chicago.

Frank doesn't make 17.7 million like Mo Vaughn, and if he performed anywhere near 2003 levels, he'd be well liked in New York.

In Chicago, much more will always be expected out of him, and certain fans will always despise him for some of the things he's said and done in the past. New York, or anywhere else, would be a clean slate for Frank, and one that he could thrive in.

jabrch
11-06-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by crector
Can you name 1 other manager who in his inaugural press conference, publicly (sp) trashed the team's best/most popular player and then kept it up during the days following that press conference?

I can't think of anybody who's done that before, not even the really outspoken types such as Leo Durocher and Mike Ditka.

TRASHED? Come on...aren't we exaggerating a bit? He said the guy will have to be a team player. He said he will have to hit the otherway and move runners - and if not, he will be called to bunt. How is this TRASHING him?

Some people (like Frank himself) are just too damn sensitive to criticism. Frank is a MLB all-star. MVPs, Silver Sluggers, Batting Titles, all these things...and he gets worked up over his manager telling him he will have to be a team player? Why? Why does Frank care? Why do we care?

Geez...Youd think Ozzie came out and said he was benching Frank, making him hit 7th, or platooning him vs lefties with all the Ozzie bashing going on. Give the guy a break until he proves unworthy in the dugout.

duke of dorwood
11-06-2003, 01:35 PM
Early returns are in-it's like Fredo running the Corleones, and not Michael

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
This is just a newly hired manager sending a message that he is in charge of this team. If Frank doesn't like it - tough titties. I am glad Frank is going to be back, provided he does what he is told to do by the manager. That's the bottom line here as I see it.

Frank knew when he accepted the 6mm option that the managerial options were either Ozzie or Cito. Neither was too likely to accept anything less than having it 100% their way and both would have started with the most high profile player on the team. Come on...you guys have all seen this. It happens everywhere. Stop chastizing Ozzie for doing the same thing every manager does - control his clubhouse and set a tone.

What is the point of doing it so publicly? How can you defend that? I have no problem with any player being asked to perform inside a team concept - though Frank's numbers have always been great from a team perspective, so singling him out seems silly. Still, if the manager and GM think Frank is a problem, why not take it to him privately? Doesn't he deserve that much consideration after everything he has done for the team through the years, including being their most marketable player for most of that time?

jabrch
11-06-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
In NYC, Thomas is just another spoke in the wheel.

Nobody is just another spoke in the wheel in NYC. Nobody escapes the wrath of the Boss or the media

Guys like Sierra, Fielder, Strawberry, etc., all went through there without getting torched. In New York, there are countless other players to shoulder the blame. There's Giambi, Williams, Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Matsui, etc.


Lets see - to which of those guys would you like to compare Frank? Sierra this year - a platoon OF? Fielder who only played a season and a half as a platoon 1B before being dumped for on for being a fat glop of crap? or Strawberry, a NY favorite who was a yank only for the end of his career - and who's personal life was always under the microscope there and who eventually collapsed. None are remotely comparable to Frank



In Chicago, much more will always be expected out of him, and certain fans will always despise him for some of the things he's said and done in the past.

I still have not met anyone who is a Sox fan who despises Frank. There are no Frank Haters. Nobody despises him. Nobody conspires against him. For the love of god, he is universally recognized as the best player we have had on this team since 1990. I don't understand why Frank and some of his fans make such a big deal out of this ****. Go out there and hit the fricking ball and stop your crying.

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 02:26 PM
I've got a better question. WHY DO WE GIVE A F*** WHAT FRANK THOMAS THINKS ABOUT THIS TEAM OR HOW IT IS MANAGED? WHY ARE PEOPLE ALWAYS CRYING WHEN SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT FRANK? Is it too much to ask of the big puss to actually care about his team more than himself for once?

That was the jist of Ozzie's comments, that Frank should have to worry about being a team player. If Frank doesn't like it the he can go f himself. He doesn't run the team. If he did then they would have named him manager. Like it or not this is Ozzie's team, and he expects it to be run in a certain manner. He didn't single Frank out until he was asked specifically about Frank because everyone but the Frank lovers realize that the guy is as big of a Me Me Me guy as there is in baseball. He expects Frank to play as a team member, just as he expects everyone else to. He didn't single any of them out because none are known to be only concerned with themselves. Plain and simple.

Deadguy
11-06-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by ListGod
Suffice it to say Mr. Thomas broke a vow he made to K-Willy and J-Dorf...

What vow? I don't really understand what Thomas could have done that would irritate Williams and Reinsdorf. If you got some inside dirt, I'd really appreciate hearing it. :D:

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I've got a better question. WHY DO WE GIVE A F*** WHAT FRANK THOMAS THINKS ABOUT THIS TEAM OR HOW IT IS MANAGED? WHY ARE PEOPLE ALWAYS CRYING WHEN SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT FRANK? Is it too much to ask of the big puss to actually care about his team more than himself for once?

That was the jist of Ozzie's comments, that Frank should have to worry about being a team player. If Frank doesn't like it the he can go f himself. He doesn't run the team. If he did then they would have named him manager. Like it or not this is Ozzie's team, and he expects it to be run in a certain manner. He didn't single Frank out until he was asked specifically about Frank because everyone but the Frank lovers realize that the guy is as big of a Me Me Me guy as there is in baseball. He expects Frank to play as a team member, just as he expects everyone else to. He didn't single any of them out because none are known to be only concerned with themselves. Plain and simple.

So you've got a lifelong team member who is a 13 year veteran who's also a head case and is the team's best or second best hitter. What's the best way of handling that situatiuon?

1)Talk to the man face to face and work out the problems such as they are and see if you can't come to an understanding about what is expected of him and what you want to accomplish and how he can help.

or

2)Get up in front of a bank of microphones and TV's in your very first appearance as that player's boss and publicly call him out for not being a team player and then continue the rant the next day

If you chose #2 remind me to never work as one of your employees.

Deadguy
11-06-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Nobody is just another spoke in the wheel in NYC. Nobody escapes the wrath of the Boss or the media

He still wouldn't be in the spotlight like he is in Chicago. Even though he projects out to being the 5th highest paid player on the team next year, he is still the center of attention in Chicago, and a lot more is expected out of him in Chicago, than would be in New York.


Lets see - to which of those guys would you like to compare Frank? Sierra this year - a platoon OF? Fielder who only played a season and a half as a platoon 1B before being dumped for on for being a fat glop of crap? or Strawberry, a NY favorite who was a yank only for the end of his career - and who's personal life was always under the microscope there and who eventually collapsed. None are remotely comparable to Frank

Obviously none of these guys compare to Thomas, but they are just examples of hired guns that had fallen off, and came through New York without getting torched. Thomas could very much do the same, as he is not necessarilly perceived as being a big time player anymore, and he wouldn't be expected to be the savior that Ken Griffey Jr. was perceieved as when he came to Cincinatti, for example. If Thomas produces there, he's liked, since he is not expected to carry the load. If he fails, he melts away into obscurity. If Thomas fails in Chicago, he is despised.

I still have not met anyone who is a Sox fan who despises Frank. There are no Frank Haters. Nobody despises him. Nobody conspires against him. For the love of god, he is universally recognized as the best player we have had on this team since 1990. I don't understand why Frank and some of his fans make such a big deal out of this ****. Go out there and hit the fricking ball and stop your crying.

You may have not met any, but you can just look at "Bobby Thigpen's" rant in this thread, and see that there are fans that do hate Thomas with a passion, and I have seen evidence that they don't just make up a tiny minority. I read a column last year that gave Thomas the moniker of "Most Hated Athlete in Chicago History". I couldn't really come up with any names to dispute that claim, so that columnist is probably right.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 02:54 PM
voodoo,

Remember that Ozzie just doesn't articulate well and he'll say a lot of things to get his point across that can sound abrasive to fluent English speakers, but he might not necessarily mean what we think he means. And the guy's blunt to begin with. He doesn't know all the subtleties and nuances of the language and yes, he shouldn't say things like he did because of that fact, but at the same time, we should wait and see how it works out when the two actually face each other.

Ozzie's foolish. He said those things based on as he said "things I heard." But he also said he loves Frank and that he was a great teammate. I would take what he said with a grain of salt for now.

harwar
11-06-2003, 02:56 PM
Putting aside the disaster that this upcoming season will be,it will at least be interesting to see if the clubhouse circus will spill over onto the diamond.We may have open fighting in the duggout during games.

Randar68
11-06-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by crector
Quoth Ozzie:

ďThereís nothing for me to say negative about Frank because I havenít seen him in six years. Iím saying what I hear, and I donít like what I hear. What I have been hearing about Frank is he has been negative, moody ... all sorts of different things."




Wow, I can't believe it! Who would have ever thought or predicted Ozzie would stick his foot in his mouth and upset veteran players with his diarrhea of the mouth???

Nick@Nite
11-06-2003, 03:22 PM
... how Willie Randolph, Cito, Tom Kelly, Joe Torre, would have handled this... yeah, yeah... if-a, could-of, could-of, should-of...

... damn, I hope to hell Frank and Ozzie get on the same sheet of music.

Randar68
11-06-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
If 3-7 are true, then it looks like KW and JR just hired another puppet. I thought in Ozzie we were getting a stand up guy.

Why would you think that? Ozzie will run his mouth, but if you don't think he'll tote the company line for JR, you're mistaken. Why do they hire first-time managers? Aside from being cheap, they're a lot less likely to talk-back.

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 06:12 PM
Voodoo, we've seen that neither talking to Frank or calling him out in the papers works with him, so what the hell difference does it make whether or not Ozzie calls him out in the papers? That's the problem, Frank doesn't give a flying f about where it happens. He's going to sulk and pout about it no matter what. That's the kind of guy that he is. That is why he needs to go. He is incapable of acting like an adult.

Randar68
11-06-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Voodoo, we've seen that neither talking to Frank or calling him out in the papers works with him, so what the hell difference does it make whether or not Ozzie calls him out in the papers? That's the problem, Frank doesn't give a flying f about where it happens. He's going to sulk and pout about it no matter what. That's the kind of guy that he is. That is why he needs to go. He is incapable of acting like an adult.

Despite the team being terrible and the Manager loving to barb him from a distance, when did Frank pout and sulk last season?

Konerko takes pot-shots. David Wells took pot-shots. *** did Frank Thomas do to you? The man was the best hitter on the team last season and was as clutch as anyone had been in a long time for the White Sox.

Why in the hell does anything need to "work with him" He is not the F'in problem with this team! How difficult is THAT to understand? So, instead, Ozzie comes out firing???? Just leave the man alone, for crying out loud! It worked for 10 friggin years, and then, suddenly, Ghandi thinks he needs to light a fire under him? *****. Now, everyone just thinks they need to rile-up Thomas. I can't believe this guy takes the abuse he does from fans and media, despite being one of, if not the, best pure hitter in the History of Chicago Baseball.


How many people are peeved now that were throwing stones from the castle walls at me the day Ozzie was hired? Helen Keller could have seen this coming if she was in Iceland!

oldcomiskey
11-06-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by phaedrus
I think it's entirely possible and fairly likely that KW and Oz are simply positioning themselves with Frank. I don't think KW wants him back and would like to trade him for a few of his 'grinders'. He kept Cito's name in the media long enough for Frank to have to make his option choice on the $6 million and then started publicly leaning towards Ozzie - remember that when Frank took the option it appeared all but locked up for Cito. Now Ozzie can start making Frank uncomfortable by making these public comments so he's more willing to accept a trade. KW's job is easier because Franks' price is $2 million less. And isn't is odd that with the team meetings in Vegas last week there has been no report of anyone meeting with Frank? Another step to alienate him.

These 2 guys might be bozos but they're not stupid. I expect to see Frank traded before spring training.

First, get your facts straight--the meeting didnt start until today and dont pity Frank----He brings alot of it on himself

Paulwny
11-06-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by harwar
Putting aside the disaster that this upcoming season will be,it will at least be interesting to see if the clubhouse circus will spill over onto the diamond.We may have open fighting in the duggout during games.

Once again history may repeat itself, fighting in the dugout

Guillen/Thomas = Martin/ Jackson

poorme
11-06-2003, 06:23 PM
I've been thinking that myself. I don't care if there are knife fights in the clubhouse. Just win baby.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I've been thinking that myself. I don't care if there are knife fights in the clubhouse. Just win baby.

Especially monkey knife fights.

WLL1855
11-06-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I've been thinking that myself. I don't care if there are knife fights in the clubhouse. Just win baby.

Amen brother.

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 07:34 PM
Randar, this is not a problem that was started when Manuel messed with Frank in 2000. The man has always been a terrible teammate. There have been numerous reports of this from people that have left the team BEFORE Manuel was around. Frank is a terrible teammate. That is the f-in problem. It's hard to achieve something when one guy is trying his best to alienate the other 24.

despite being one of, if not the, best pure hitter in the History of Chicago Baseball.

So, using that theory no one should ever criticize Sosa for his defense, running, or lack of caring for the rest of his team because he IS (as much as it pains me to type this, it is true) the greatest home run hitter in the history of Chicago? That is terrible logic. Like it or not there are many similarities between Frank and the hated Sammy that most Frank supporters REFUSE to identify.

A lot of the things that we accuse Sammy of doing, Frank does as well. But if you support Frank your reasoning for not attacking him on this is because he is the greatest hitter in Sox history, or that he should be allowed to retire here, so he should be allowed to act like a three year old whenever he wants. PLEASE

steff
11-06-2003, 07:42 PM
Guys.. a LOT of players are bad teammates. Who cares if Frank is a baby..? Maybe the media should worry more about reporting what's going on on the field versus in the clubhouse.

This is completely retarded.

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 07:49 PM
How many of those players are the focus of that team? How many of them ever win a World Series? My point is that the Sox are never going to go buy an all-star team ala George so they need to build a TEAM and Frank can not buy into any theory that means that he must sacrifice anything. Frank could not function in a world where he is expected to do anything that may benefit anyone but himself. That is my biggest beef with him. That is why he must go.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
How many of those players are the focus of that team? How many of them ever win a World Series? My point is that the Sox are never going to go buy an all-star team ala George so they need to build a TEAM and Frank can not buy into any theory that means that he must sacrifice anything. Frank could not function in a world where he is expected to do anything that may benefit anyone but himself. That is my biggest beef with him. That is why he must go.

Examples please...

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 07:55 PM
Of what?

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Of what?


Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
.. to build a TEAM and Frank can not buy into any theory that means that he must sacrifice anything. Frank could not function in a world where he is expected to do anything that may benefit anyone but himself.

Of that...

steff
11-06-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
How many of those players are the focus of that team? How many of them ever win a World Series? My point is that the Sox are never going to go buy an all-star team ala George so they need to build a TEAM and Frank can not buy into any theory that means that he must sacrifice anything. Frank could not function in a world where he is expected to do anything that may benefit anyone but himself. That is my biggest beef with him. That is why he must go.

Bobby.. no offense.. but 95% of what you know of Frank is "made up" by the media. Their job is to sell papers. Yes.. Frank sometimes isn't the brightest bulb in the box.. but he is far.. VERY FAR from self-serving or selfish. He has a short fuse, that's for sure. But in "real life" Frank has sooo many friends that he does soooo many good, kind, and unselfish things for.

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 08:07 PM
Are you serious Voodoo? Frank is all about Frank and only Frank. Even most Frank supporters will acknowledge this. But since you asked I will supply.

2000- Frank throws a fit about having to run sprints that everyone else is running- great teamwork shown there

the first base situation- I don't know if this is really Frank's problems or his internet club's but most people don't realize that at one point Frank was all for being a fulltime DH, but when his numbers began to fall all everyone wanted was for him to be back at first. That seems to be pretty preoccupied with one's own personal stats doesn't it?

the much debated issue this summer that revolved around Frank wanting to "air it out" to "set the tone" in the middle of a pennant race

his whining about the diminished skills clause

his working with his own hitting guru because the guy that is working with the other 24 guys isn't good enough for him- Oh I forgot Hriniak's the only guy who knows his "swing"- please

his continued propensity to take credit for when the club is playing well, but his refusal to take any blame when they aren't- doesn't exactly sound like the team leader Frank fancies himself as being

Need more?

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 08:09 PM
Bobby.. no offense.. but 95% of what you know of Frank is "made up" by the media. Their job is to sell papers. Yes.. Frank sometimes isn't the brightest bulb in the box.. but he is far.. VERY FAR from self-serving or selfish. He has a short fuse, that's for sure. But in "real life" Frank has sooo many friends that he does soooo many good, kind, and unselfish things for

Good, I'm sure that Barry Bonds has many friends as well. My point is that he rubs the people that he plays with the wrong way. You can't do that and win the greatest prize in baseball. Even the guys that do win it with huge egos do it as a team. I don't think Frank can do that.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Are you serious Voodoo? Frank is all about Frank and only Frank. Even most Frank supporters will acknowledge this. But since you asked I will supply.

2000- Frank throws a fit about having to run sprints that everyone else is running- great teamwork shown there

the first base situation- I don't know if this is really Frank's problems or his internet club's but most people don't realize that at one point Frank was all for being a fulltime DH, but when his numbers began to fall all everyone wanted was for him to be back at first. That seems to be pretty preoccupied with one's own personal stats doesn't it?

the much debated issue this summer that revolved around Frank wanting to "air it out" to "set the tone" in the middle of a pennant race

his whining about the diminished skills clause

his working with his own hitting guru because the guy that is working with the other 24 guys isn't good enough for him- Oh I forgot Hriniak's the only guy who knows his "swing"- please

his continued propensity to take credit for when the club is playing well, but his refusal to take any blame when they aren't- doesn't exactly sound like the team leader Frank fancies himself as being

Need more?

Okay, step by step...

Frank was returning from Foot surgery and didn't want to run the sprints at that time. He ran them later in training camp that has been well documented.

Yep, Frank felt he could better serve the club by being a DH and letting someone else man first. Later he changed his mind. What's your point? Has he ever refused to play first? to DH? Get over it. Stop confusing his desires with his actions.

Frank did the right thing. He got hot and carried the team for most of June and August when the Sox were making their run. Check the stats then check the team record. Then again, get over it, because Frank turned out to be right. BTW, he made those comments in June or July after going on a tear after switching his stance.

Let me get this straight. Paying for his own hitting instructor, so he can get back on track and better hit the ball which is good for the team is selfish? Wow. That brings a whole new meaning to the definition of the word, IMO. If anything that sounds like a supremely team based move. He didn't feel he was maximizing his potential so he found a way to improve, or tried to. Tell me again how this is selfish and not team oriented.

Links and quotes please. I have never ever heard Frank say anything about being the reason the team wins or loses. He is a major part of that because when he is hot, the team tends to win (see the previous point about June and August). You are just making stuff up now...

More? How about you make the first actual real statement that proves your point. You are so blindly anti-Thomas that you are spinning anything and everything to try and make your point. Basically, you are lying to make Frank seem worse and yourself seem right.

:whoflungpoo

Bobby Thigpen
11-06-2003, 08:30 PM
Lying about what?

I know for a fact that when the Sox were going good Frank wanted credit for it because his "air it out" theory was going well, but when the team tanked at the end of the year and the media asked him what went wrong he said that it wasn't his fault because there were 24 other people that were responsible as well.

I'm sorry that I don't have links or quotes, but occasionally I like to do something other than categorize every stupid thing that comes out of Frank's mouth. The best I can do for you was that it was in one of the season's final Tribunes as people were trying to figure out what the hell happened with this team.( I know it didn't actually happen because the Trib is out to get Frank right?)

Let me get this straight. Paying for his own hitting instructor, so he can get back on track and better hit the ball which is good for the team is selfish? Wow. That brings a whole new meaning to the definition of the word, IMO. If anything that sounds like a supremely team based move. He didn't feel he was maximizing his potential so he found a way to improve, or tried to. Tell me again how this is selfish and not team oriented

It's just symptomatic of the way Frank works. Why can't he ask any of the parade of hitting instructors the Sox have had in the last few years? They seem to work for other players. Frank just has to do things by himself. That's the way he is.

Frank was returning from Foot surgery and didn't want to run the sprints at that time. He ran them later in training camp that has been well documented.

Yes, he did run them, but not until he threw his very public tantrum. Do you honestly believe that this was the first run in he had with Manuel? No, he has run ins with everyone. He appears to be extremely hard to work with. That was my original point when I started writing in this thread. Frank is going to have problems with any manager they name because no one is going to manage a TEAM around him, nor should they. It's Ozzie's team if he wants it done a certain way Frank should shut the F up and do it that way. That's what he gets paid for.

LASOXFAN
11-06-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by poorme
It seems to me KW and Guillen spent considerable time talking about Thomas. They HAVE to be on the same page here.

This is a great point - the best I've read on this matter.

I don't believe that Ozzie is a jerk, just a cute little mascot that should be kept on the bench when the team is on the field and in the third base box when they're at bat.

This is a disaster.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Lying about what?

I know for a fact that when the Sox were going good Frank wanted credit for it because his "air it out" theory was going well, but when the team tanked at the end of the year and the media asked him what went wrong he said that it wasn't his fault because there were 24 other people that were responsible as well.

I'm sorry that I don't have links or quotes, but occasionally I like to do something other than categorize every stupid thing that comes out of Frank's mouth. The best I can do for you was that it was in one of the season's final Tribunes as people were trying to figure out what the hell happened with this team.( I know it didn't actually happen because the Trib is out to get Frank right?)

It's just symptomatic of the way Frank works. Why can't he ask any of the parade of hitting instructors the Sox have had in the last few years? They seem to work for other players. Frank just has to do things by himself. That's the way he is.

Yes, he did run them, but not until he threw his very public tantrum. Do you honestly believe that this was the first run in he had with Manuel? No, he has run ins with everyone. He appears to be extremely hard to work with. That was my original point when I started writing in this thread. Frank is going to have problems with any manager they name because no one is going to manage a TEAM around him, nor should they. It's Ozzie's team if he wants it done a certain way Frank should shut the F up and do it that way. That's what he gets paid for.

Frank is right there were 24 other members of the team who also failed to make the playoffs. Sure it isn't the greatest comment in history, but Frank has never exactly been media saavy either. I didn't hear Maggs, Carlos, Buehrle, Loaiza, Valentin, Alomar (either one of them), Konerko or anyone publicly stepping up and saying, "My bad. I am the reason we lost." But, none of them get ripped for it.

I won't talk about the batting instructer thing. It isn't worth arguing over. He did work with the Sox hitting instructors AND Hrniak too. Hrniak didn't travel with the team. He made two appearances with the team this year. One in ST at Frank's request. One after Frank changed his batting stance and then only to talk to him. He was gone the next day after condoning Frank's approach.

About the windsprints, Frank didn't have a public hissy fit. JM made a big point about talking about this to the media and thus made it a public situation. Then when Frank later ran the windsprints, no one said crap. There was a 2-line blurb in the Trib about how the team all stood around and watched Frank and two other guys run the springs. The team cheered the moment. So it actually turned into something good that brought the team together. Of course Frank gets no credit for that. We only get to hear when Frank does something questionable.

Remind me again. Exactly how many public comments has Frank made on Ozzie's hiring? I can't recall a single one. It's all "sources close to Frank say..." Of course rumor and inneuendo is enough for the haters...

Kilroy
11-07-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Remind me again. Exactly how many public comments has Frank made on Ozzie's hiring? I can't recall a single one. It's all "sources close to Frank say..." Of course rumor and inneuendo is enough for the haters...

Voodoo, even tho you have debunked every BS comment made by Thiggy, he's still gonna be a hater.

steff
11-07-2003, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Voodoo, even tho you have debunked every BS comment made by Thiggy, he's still gonna be a hater.


LOL. Poor Jim. His head must hurt real bad... :D:

jabrch
11-07-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Voodoo, even tho you have debunked every BS comment made by Thiggy, he's still gonna be a hater.


This mythical group of Sox fans who hate our best player. I have still yet to meet one in person. All people are saying is that Frank should be a team player and should do what his manager tells him to do. Why is that so hard for anyone to handle?

Manager says sacrifice, you sacrifice. Manager says hit .300 and 30 instead of .280 and 50, cut your stroke down. Manager says DH, shut your pie hole and DH. Why is this so hard?

Bobby Thigpen
11-07-2003, 08:15 AM
This mythical group of Sox fans who hate our best player. I have still yet to meet one in person. All people are saying is that Frank should be a team player and should do what his manager tells him to do. Why is that so hard for anyone to handle?

EXACTLY

Bobby Thigpen
11-07-2003, 08:20 AM
Remind me again. Exactly how many public comments has Frank made on Ozzie's hiring? I can't recall a single one. It's all "sources close to Frank say..." Of course rumor and inneuendo is enough for the haters...

So this is just going to fall into the category of the media conspiracy to get Frank? That has got to be about the craziest idea people on here ever have. So if the media keeps making these things up, why does Frank continue to talk to them? Maybe they don't make these things up, maybe Frank said them and he's just to big of a puss to come out and say it. It wouldn't be the first time.

For the record, I don't HATE Frank Thomas. In fact I've met the guy before and he seemed very, very nice and cordial to me. I just don't think he's the kind of guy a TEAM needs and that is why I think he needs to leave.

voodoochile
11-07-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
So this is just going to fall into the category of the media conspiracy to get Frank? That has got to be about the craziest idea people on here ever have. So if the media keeps making these things up, why does Frank continue to talk to them? Maybe they don't make these things up, maybe Frank said them and he's just to big of a puss to come out and say it. It wouldn't be the first time.

For the record, I don't HATE Frank Thomas. In fact I've met the guy before and he seemed very, very nice and cordial to me. I just don't think he's the kind of guy a TEAM needs and that is why I think he needs to leave.

No, I don't think the media is out to get Frank, but I have yet to read a single quote on the matter directly attributed to Frank, have you? If you have, can you try and find a link?

The media is trying to sell newspapers. The media is going to use any source that CLAIMS to have access to Frank's thoughts and refuse to reveal those sources.

Until Frank comes out and says, "I hate Ozzie" or something to that effect, I will take a wait and see approach. IMO, Ozzie started this fight. Frank hasn't even thrown a punch yet in public.


Manager says sacrifice, you sacrifice. Manager says hit .300 and 30 instead of .280 and 50, cut your stroke down. Manager says DH, shut your pie hole and DH. Why is this so hard?

When did Frank ever NOT do those things? This past year, Frank was clearly working on his stance and his swing all season. He still put up Silver Slugger type numbers. Frank wanted to play more first and JM said "No." JM was dead wrong based on both Frank's numbers and especially Paulie's. Are you defending JM over Frank?

For the record, I don't necessarily agree that there are no "Frank Haters". I think there is a small vocal group that has decided Frank is the problem on the team (Lord knows why) and thus they have chosen to make Frank the whipping boy for the team's problems. They blame Frank for everything from the team's attitude to the fact that there weren't enough people on base for Frank to drive in last year. They blame him for sticking with the Sox through thick and thin. They blame him for picking up his option instead of putting his tail between his legs and slinking away. They blame him for Ozzie lipping off at the press conference and firing more shots the next day. They even like to blame him for having a crappy year in 2001.

I admit. I am a fan of the big man, so I tend to see things in a positive light, but whenever I point out that others are doing the opposite, it is defended as "We don't hate Frank. We like Frank, but want him to do more for the team."

Here are my two responses:

Looks pretty helpful to me (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4527)

:whoflungpoo

Randar68
11-07-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
So this is just going to fall into the category of the media conspiracy to get Frank? That has got to be about the craziest idea people on here ever have. So if the media keeps making these things up, why does Frank continue to talk to them? Maybe they don't make these things up, maybe Frank said them and he's just to big of a puss to come out and say it. It wouldn't be the first time.

For the record, I don't HATE Frank Thomas. In fact I've met the guy before and he seemed very, very nice and cordial to me. I just don't think he's the kind of guy a TEAM needs and that is why I think he needs to leave.

Thigpen, I have avoided this topic, for the most part, because you have been completely non-sensical and ignorant.

It is no wonder that people believe everything they read in the newspapers. It's just too damn tiring to actually figure things out, think or investigate things on your own. This is the laziest country in the world, and people like yourself form every "opinion" you have by reading repetitive garbage in a local paper that owns the other baseball team in this town.

Do you know Frank Thomas? I know several people that have spent a lot of time with he and his family.

Are you in the Clubhouse??? Do you not realize that every team is made-up by a collection of characters and personalities? That every team has whiners or bullies or loud-mouths, or people who just are too damn honest to the media for their own good?

Frank Thomas is honest. He get's destroyed for it in this city every damn time he opens his mouth.

You're probably one of these people that think it's great that Ozzie is the manager because he is honest.

The ignorance is too much to handle.

Voodoo, there is the old adage, "you can't argue with ignorance." I think it's time to recognize it for what it is...

Bobby Thigpen
11-07-2003, 12:07 PM
Fine, I give up, you guys win. Apparently I'm just an ignorant rube. I guess I'll just shut up as the Sox continue toward mediocraty (sp) with Frank as the centerpiece of this club. But before I go, if the media is just spouting off about Frank, then why do you NEVER hear about him being a great teammate or person? Is this part of the media conspiracy?

If that's the answer then fine, I'll just let it drop.

Do you not realize that every team is made-up by a collection of characters and personalities? That every team has whiners or bullies or loud-mouths,

And for the record I would want to get rid of their ass as well. You have to be able to function as a team, and while those people may be loud mouths or bullies they find a way to function as a team. To only worry about yourself is never a productive theory. You can't win with that theory on a regular basis. That is what I want to see the Sox do, win on a regular basis. I just don't think you can do it with Frank. I guess we'll see.

Deadguy
11-07-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Fine, I give up, you guys win. Apparently I'm just an ignorant rube. I guess I'll just shut up as the Sox continue toward mediocraty (sp) with Frank as the centerpiece of this club. But before I go, if the media is just spouting off about Frank, then why do you NEVER hear about him being a great teammate or person? Is this part of the media conspiracy?

If that's the answer then fine, I'll just let it drop.

He probably isn't a great teammate, I don't dispute that. I do dispute the fact that you "can't win with him". You rationalize that in 14 years, he has never lead us to a title. You seem to think there is a cause and effect relationship between Thomas being "selfish", and us not winning a title.

The bottom line is, there are many factors that have come into play since 1990 that have prevented us from getting to the next level. Thomas isn't holding us back from anything, and in most of the years where we failed to make the playoffs, we were simply beat out by teams with more talent. The only years where we arguably had more talent than the division winners would be 2002 and 2003.



And for the record I would want to get rid of their ass as well. You have to be able to function as a team, and while those people may be loud mouths or bullies they find a way to function as a team. To only worry about yourself is never a productive theory. You can't win with that theory on a regular basis. That is what I want to see the Sox do, win on a regular basis. I just don't think you can do it with Frank. I guess we'll see.

Baseball is an individualized game with a team concept. Guys can be obsessed with their stats, and still not be disruptive or hurtful towards the team. As long as they are productive, and helping their team score runs, who cares what their motives for doing it are.

Like Sandy Alomar said, if you leave Thomas alone and let him do his thing, he's not hurting the team.

Bobby Thigpen
11-07-2003, 12:21 PM
It is no wonder that people believe everything they read in the newspapers. It's just too damn tiring to actually figure things out, think or investigate things on your own. This is the laziest country in the world, and people like yourself form every "opinion" you have by reading repetitive garbage in a local paper that owns the other baseball team in this town

I'm sorry that the Trib is all that I get to read, but something about working and coaching 12 hours a day makes it hard for me to spend too much time "investigating" or "thinking". I guess it's because I'm too damn lazy.

You're probably one of these people that think it's great that Ozzie is the manager because he is honest.

Have I said ANYTHING about Ozzie being manager other than it is his right to expect the team to be run in the manner in which he sees fit? NO. For the record, I'm not real overjoyed about Ozzie being the new manager, but I do feel that he has the right to do things as he wishes. There's not a damn thing I can do about it.

The ignorance is too much to handle.

This is something about this site that bugs me. Anytime someone has a differing opinion about Frank it's because they're "ignorant". We can rant and rave about any other player and getting rid of them, despite their stats (see Ordonez, Magglio), but as soon as you talk about getting rid of Frank you're "ignorant". It's like it's blasphemy to talk about getting rid of him. He's not a saint, nor is anyone else in MLB. He should be treated as everyone else in the game is treated. He shouldn't be treated differently just because he's the greatest hitter in team history, or because people want to see him retire with the team he came up with.

Don't get me wrong, I love this site and probably spend entirely too much time on it, but I will never understand the blind devotion to one man who has (in my eyes) done very little to deserve it. And before you throw the best hitter in team history thing at me, and that is why I should love him, please listen to that statement. If you find nothing wrong with it then fine tell it to me for the 9000th time.

Randar68
11-07-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
This is something about this site that bugs me. Anytime someone has a differing opinion about Frank it's because they're "ignorant". We can rant and rave about any other player and getting rid of them, despite their stats (see Ordonez, Magglio), but as soon as you talk about getting rid of Frank you're "ignorant". It's like it's blasphemy to talk about getting rid of him. He's not a saint, nor is anyone else in MLB. He should be treated as everyone else in the game is treated. He shouldn't be treated differently just because he's the greatest hitter in team history, or because people want to see him retire with the team he came up with.

Don't get me wrong, I love this site and probably spend entirely too much time on it, but I will never understand the blind devotion to one man who has (in my eyes) done very little to deserve it. And before you throw the best hitter in team history thing at me, and that is why I should love him, please listen to that statement. If you find nothing wrong with it then fine tell it to me for the 9000th time.

It's not that you have a differing opinion, it's that you're expounding upon things you clearly have no first-hand knowledge of. This "opinion" is not based on the facts, and that is what people who are closer to the situation take offense to. I went overboard, and thank you for being civil in your response.

He is not disruptive in the Clubhouse or with teammates. Everyone in a locker room of 25+ guys has a guy here or there they don't get along with. When you're the best hitter on the team, people take aim. It's the way it is and I understand that Frank isn't the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to dealing with the media...

As for the Hriniak thing. The man basically taught Thomas how to hit. He's been his coach/mentor for 15 years. One thing about the Hriniak/Lau school of hitting is, if a hitting coach in not one of the teachers of it, it is very difficult to fix/correct/adjust hitters who are of that philosophy of hitting.

Frank is a nice guy who is down-to-earth and really a good person. It's a shame that the people of this town and fans of this team find it to their enjoyment to chastize him and make him the scapegoat or bad-guy at every possibility. This town embraces the most fraudulent athlete in the professional sports, a known spousal abuser and likely 'roid pumper, yet the guy who's done it the right way is the evil within?

This right here is why I find it so distasteful for people to rip on Frank.

faneidde
11-07-2003, 12:42 PM
I don't really want to get into the pissing contest about Frank, but if the Sox organization is so classless that it has a conspiracy to run the best player in franchise history out of town, I don't know how I could ever root for the team again. Frank's been with the Sox since I was like 10 and is one of the reasons a kid from the burbs became a Sox fan instead of a Scrubs fan. To me Frank Thomas is Chicago White Sox's baseball, if I ever saw him in another uniform it would make me sick.

Second thing, no manager is more valuable than a good player (not even Dusty Baker) so why in the hell would the Sox hire Guillen unless either wanted to run Frank out of town or believed Ozzie and Frank could get along. I really hope its the second choice.

voodoochile
11-07-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Don't get me wrong, I love this site and probably spend entirely too much time on it, but I will never understand the blind devotion to one man who has (in my eyes) done very little to deserve it. And before you throw the best hitter in team history thing at me, and that is why I should love him, please listen to that statement. If you find nothing wrong with it then fine tell it to me for the 9000th time.

No, I'll take one final tack in this thread instead...

What has the team done to promote Frank Thomas and make him seem more friendly to the press and fans? Frank gets kicked in the teeth on a regular basis by the way he is treated. The team has actively made him the whipping boy for their problems. They have gone out of their way (or so it seems) to promote his problems and minimize his accomplishments. Frank has his problems, but the team hasn't exactly stood by him in his times of need the way the Giants did when Barry's father died. Meanwhile, Frank got called a lazy fatass by Wells and the team stood by and did nothing. Sham-ME* loses $10K cash, gets caught with a corked bat, beat his wife with a rum bottle, plays ear-splitting Salsa music in the clubhouse and has made more horrible comments to the press than Frank will in this life and the next and yet, he is a darling, loved by one and all. Frank gets ripped for being injured and when he comes back from a career threatening injury (tricep, 2001) the team takes the very first chance to invoke the DSC and try and either force him out or make him play for less.

Frank takes a leadership role in 2000 telling the guys to keep it on an even keel in June and then leads the team to the playoffs with an amazing season - but all we hear is that he is ONLY a DH. Frank tells Carlos to go back and lift weights last ST on a regular basis but, of course, that doesn't count as leadership. Frank takes it on himself to get the team going offensively last summer and of course it is a problem because he isn't hitting singles to RF enough.

Frank has two solid (by MLB standards) season while going through his father's illness, a divorce and playing through an injury that would have put most people flat on their back (1998, 1999) and the press rips him and the team lets it happen, never once coming to his defense to talk about the reasons that Frank might have struggled.

This is a man who has been the single dominant reason to watch the team over the last decade and the team treats him like he is an anthrax carrier who kills children in his spare time.

Let's take a far out trip down memory lane and see how things might have been different...

Frank struggles in 1998 and 1999 and the team stands behind him. Instead of letting JM dominate the headlines with his "anger at Frank for leaving the team" comments they say, "Frank is injured and will be out the rest of the season. We hope he can return next year and be the Frank we know he can be at the plate." Then in 2000 when he has that monster year, JR says, "I am eliminating the DSC from Frank's contract. He is a great player, a HOF'er and an incredible part of Sox history. We are lucky to have him and I hope he plays for the Sox for the rest of his career." How about this past summer when they did very little to market Frank's 2000th hit and 400th HR all of which happened while Frank was wearing a White Sox uniform. The fans noticed, too bad the team decided it wasn't worth their time.

Now, do you think things might have been different these past few years? Do you think Frank might have been a little friendlier, a little more focused, a little less likely to blow up?

The team has made this mess by treating their best player, most marketable asset and only sure future HOF'er like Albert Belle without the numbers. If Frank is a little more leary of management, a little less trusting of the press and his teammates, some of that blame (at least) must be passed to those other people. Frank isn't perfect, but he is a LONG way from the problem you make him out to be and through it all, he continues to put up the numbers, play where they tell him to and treat the fans with respect and give of himself for the franchise.

Maybe it is time to change the way we treat the big man and see if it changes the way he is perceived and treated by the press and the fans of the team. Oh that's right, MOST of the fans still like Frank Thomas and are glad he is here. Man, if only there was a way to use that to the team's advantage...

jabrch
11-07-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by faneidde
if the Sox organization is so classless that it has a conspiracy to run the best player in franchise history out of town

Same old story...the great conspiracy... Sorry - I just don't buy it. The owner loves Frank. He could have stuck Frank, by the terms of his contract after the DSC, in a very bad situation. Frank knew that he had no options out there, and JR gave him a deal that guaranteed him very good money over the length of the deal but also gave him the chance to go out and get much much more if the market would bear it. If this is considered a conspiracy and being run out of town, I wish my employer would do that to me more often. Don't you get it? Last year, instead of giving him this deal, they could have, after invoking the DSC, just let him go. That was not what ANYONE in the organization wanted.

why in the hell would the Sox hire Guillen unless either wanted to run Frank out of town or believed Ozzie and Frank could get along.

How about #3, that they believed that Ozzie was the best available manager that had interest in the job and would work within the salary band that they were willing to pay? There is no conspiracy. JR loves Frank. JR wants Frank to stay. And we all know that no matter what KW says/does, JR still runs this team. If Frank said to JR that he couldn't live with Ozzie, do you really think JR wouldn't have suggested to KW that we hire Cito?

Come on...This whole conspiracy thing is silly. This is Major League Baseball here guys, not a Jr. High Girls Softball team.

jabrch
11-07-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This is a man who has been the single dominant reason to watch the team over the last decade and the team treats him like he is an anthrax carrier who kills children in his spare time.


Voodoo,

Come on...tell me this isn't a gross overstatement. This organization has treated Frank as well as they have treated other star players. JR as the owner of the Bulls and the Sox is very consistent. No, they don't run the crappy hype on players like the Tribune does. And Frankly, if they did, I'd puke. I don't want to see that. If you want to compare how Frank is to how Sammy is, fine, but I don't find Sammy acceptable either. I don't find how that organization is run to be acceptable. But the reality is that Frank has not been treated this poorly. The organization, upon invoking the DSC (because they had every right to) still made Frank a deal that was extremely attractive to him - moreso than any deal that any other team was willing to make. They left him every chance to maximize his own earning potential while only deferring money to the back end of the deal. If they wanted him gone, why do you think they would have brought him back?

I'm done on this thread for now, I just wish we'd all step back a bit. There is no conspiracy. Nobody should hate Frank. Nobody should hate Ozzie. We should all hate Manuel. We should all hate Bevington. We should all hate David Wells. We should all hate the Tribune.

Ozzie will be a refreshing change of pace from Manuel. It certainly can't hurt. (all we need now is a #1 SP and a #5 SP and I'll be ready to go)

crector
11-07-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, I'll take one final tack in this thread instead...

What has the team done to promote Frank Thomas and make him seem more friendly to the press and fans? Frank gets kicked in the teeth on a regular basis by the way he is treated. The team has actively made him the whipping boy for their problems. They have gone out of their way (or so it seems) to promote his problems and minimize his accomplishments. Frank has his problems, but the team hasn't exactly stood by him in his times of need the way the Giants did when Barry's father died. Meanwhile, Frank got called a lazy fatass by Wells and the team stood by and did nothing. Sham-ME* loses $10K cash, gets caught with a corked bat, beat his wife with a rum bottle, plays ear-splitting Salsa music in the clubhouse and has made more horrible comments to the press than Frank will in this life and the next and yet, he is a darling, loved by one and all. Frank gets ripped for being injured and when he comes back from a career threatening injury (tricep, 2001) the team takes the very first chance to invoke the DSC and try and either force him out or make him play for less.

Frank takes a leadership role in 2000 telling the guys to keep it on an even keel in June and then leads the team to the playoffs with an amazing season - but all we hear is that he is ONLY a DH. Frank tells Carlos to go back and lift weights last ST on a regular basis but, of course, that doesn't count as leadership. Frank takes it on himself to get the team going offensively last summer and of course it is a problem because he isn't hitting singles to RF enough.

Frank has two solid (by MLB standards) season while going through his father's illness, a divorce and playing through an injury that would have put most people flat on their back (1998, 1999) and the press rips him and the team lets it happen, never once coming to his defense to talk about the reasons that Frank might have struggled.

This is a man who has been the single dominant reason to watch the team over the last decade and the team treats him like he is an anthrax carrier who kills children in his spare time.

Let's take a far out trip down memory lane and see how things might have been different...

Frank struggles in 1998 and 1999 and the team stands behind him. Instead of letting JM dominate the headlines with his "anger at Frank for leaving the team" comments they say, "Frank is injured and will be out the rest of the season. We hope he can return next year and be the Frank we know he can be at the plate." Then in 2000 when he has that monster year, JR says, "I am eliminating the DSC from Frank's contract. He is a great player, a HOF'er and an incredible part of Sox history. We are lucky to have him and I hope he plays for the Sox for the rest of his career." How about this past summer when they did very little to market Frank's 2000th hit and 400th HR all of which happened while Frank was wearing a White Sox uniform. The fans noticed, too bad the team decided it wasn't worth their time.

Now, do you think things might have been different these past few years? Do you think Frank might have been a little friendlier, a little more focused, a little less likely to blow up?

The team has made this mess by treating their best player, most marketable asset and only sure future HOF'er like Albert Belle without the numbers. If Frank is a little more leary of management, a little less trusting of the press and his teammates, some of that blame (at least) must be passed to those other people. Frank isn't perfect, but he is a LONG way from the problem you make him out to be and through it all, he continues to put up the numbers, play where they tell him to and treat the fans with respect and give of himself for the franchise.

Maybe it is time to change the way we treat the big man and see if it changes the way he is perceived and treated by the press and the fans of the team. Oh that's right, MOST of the fans still like Frank Thomas and are glad he is here. Man, if only there was a way to use that to the team's advantage...

Well put.

voodoochile
11-07-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Voodoo,

Come on...tell me this isn't a gross overstatement. This organization has treated Frank as well as they have treated other star players. JR as the owner of the Bulls and the Sox is very consistent. No, they don't run the crappy hype on players like the Tribune does. And Frankly, if they did, I'd puke. I don't want to see that. If you want to compare how Frank is to how Sammy is, fine, but I don't find Sammy acceptable either. I don't find how that organization is run to be acceptable. But the reality is that Frank has not been treated this poorly. The organization, upon invoking the DSC (because they had every right to) still made Frank a deal that was extremely attractive to him - moreso than any deal that any other team was willing to make. They left him every chance to maximize his own earning potential while only deferring money to the back end of the deal. If they wanted him gone, why do you think they would have brought him back?

I'm done on this thread for now, I just wish we'd all step back a bit. There is no conspiracy. Nobody should hate Frank. Nobody should hate Ozzie. We should all hate Manuel. We should all hate Bevington. We should all hate David Wells. We should all hate the Tribune.

Ozzie will be a refreshing change of pace from Manuel. It certainly can't hurt. (all we need now is a #1 SP and a #5 SP and I'll be ready to go)

Sure, it was an exageration, is that the only thing in my post you found fault with? Cool...

The team didn't have to invoke the DSC at all and even when they did, they could have left the contract alone but defered some of the money instead of all of it. Instead, they cut his guaranteed money almost in half. Those are the facts.

You say you don't want them to market their star players? WHY? If they had half the marketing saavy of the flubbies ownership, maybe the attendance discrepancy wouldn't be so bad. Use what works...

crector
11-07-2003, 02:16 PM
Rich Gallas prefers tasteless promotions. That's why he won't use Frank in any of his PR campaigns for the Sox.

Sometimes I wonder if Jimmy Piersall had the right idea on what to do with folks like Gallas.

Randar68
11-07-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by crector
Rich Gallas prefers tasteless promotions. That's why he won't use Frank in any of his PR campaigns for the Sox.

Sometimes I wonder if Jimmy Piersall had the right idea on what to do with folks like Gallas.

Does Rob Gallas have a brother? :gulp:

jabrch
11-07-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You say you don't want them to market their star players? WHY? If they had half the marketing saavy of the flubbies ownership, maybe the attendance discrepancy wouldn't be so bad. Use what works...

I didn't say not to market their star player - I said I don't want anyone treated the way Sammy is. We all agree that Sox marketing sucks. Come on...

Serious question though...Do you think Frank, given his personality on-camera and desire to stay away from the media is anywhere close to marketable like Shamu? Look, I agree the Sox marketing has been terrible over the years, but dont you think that Frank needs to share some of the burden for his own marketability? Sammy has done a lot to market himself over the years (too much if you ask me). If we think Frank's marketability is part of the problem, then the burden must again be shared between the club and its pisspoor marketing AND Frank and his TERRIBLE advisors over the years. Right?

voodoochile
11-07-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I didn't say not to market their star player - I said I don't want anyone treated the way Sammy is. We all agree that Sox marketing sucks. Come on...

Serious question though...Do you think Frank, given his personality on-camera and desire to stay away from the media is anywhere close to marketable like Shamu? Look, I agree the Sox marketing has been terrible over the years, but dont you think that Frank needs to share some of the burden for his own marketability? Sammy has done a lot to market himself over the years (too much if you ask me). If we think Frank's marketability is part of the problem, then the burden must again be shared between the club and its pisspoor marketing AND Frank and his TERRIBLE advisors over the years. Right?

Frank doesn't make it easy to love him, I will grant you that. But, if the team were better at promoting and backing their stars, then some of these problems might have been avoided. Of course that would mean JR would have to actually PAY the stars once they reach star level...

Iwritecode
11-07-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Of course that would mean JR would have to actually PAY the stars once they reach star level...

OK, that's enough of the crazy talk Voodoo.

How long did it take to get JR to finally pay Jordan what he was worth???

jabrch
11-07-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Frank doesn't make it easy to love him, I will grant you that. But, if the team were better at promoting and backing their stars, then some of these problems might have been avoided. Of course that would mean JR would have to actually PAY the stars once they reach star level...

Shared responsibility on the promotions thing - I knew we'd eventually agree on something!

JR has paid his stars fairly hasn't he? Mags contract was more than fair. Frank's contract was more than fair. Had his agent not allowed the stupid DSC clause in there, Frank would still be on his initial deal. Even with the DSC, Frank is making 6 this year, then either 8 or 10 next year and 10 or 12 the following. His choice - if the market will bear more, he is welcome to go and get it. I am trying to think of home developed talent that we lost cuz JR didn't pay them, that went on to star elsewhere. I can't come up with any... Who am I missing? I am all for JR bashing for being a cheapskate, but I don't think it is that he doesn't pay his stars enough; I think it is that he doesn't spend enough for the rest of the team. I'll also blame him for some bad personell decisions, but not for not paying his own stars.

Outside of the Yanks, how many teams have as much money tied into 3 home grown starting guys as we do in Mags, Frank and PK? (almost 30mm)

Not many that I can think of...

jabrch
11-07-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
OK, that's enough of the crazy talk Voodoo.

How long did it take to get JR to finally pay Jordan what he was worth???

Until he was done with his contract. Then he was paid more than fairly. I can't believe we are bemoaning the unfair compensation for star athletes.

Iwritecode
11-07-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I am trying to think of home developed talent that we lost cuz JR didn't pay them, that went on to star elsewhere. I can't come up with any... Who am I missing?

Ventura would have been nice to keep around...

Here's a better question, how much talent (trades/FA's) have we missed out on because JR doesn't want to pay them?

jabrch
11-07-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Ventura would have been nice to keep around...

Here's a better question, how much talent (trades/FA's) have we missed out on because JR doesn't want to pay them?

Ventura? We let him go at just the right time. Look at his numbers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/venturo01.shtml

We let him go in 1998. He had a great 1999, .301 .379 .529 with 32 and 120.

But after that his best season over the next 5 years was .247 .368 .458. He only plays 140 games a season since we let him go and is clearly on the downside. I don't think that was a bad move, do you?

Agreed, we don't always get the big name FA. But at the same time, we took some calculated gambles...we paid a lot of money to Bo, to Belle, to Boomer, offered to Colon. I know we never got the best guy out there. And I agree that we have JR to blame for that. But lets not fault him for dealing with existing guys, I think he has done a good job keeping our homegrown talent with us while it is in its prime. Mags, if we lose him, will be the first exception. And I think if we lose him, JR/KW will be sure to get a ton for him.

voodoochile
11-07-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Ventura? We let him go at just the right time. Look at his numbers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/venturo01.shtml

We let him go in 1998. He had a great 1999, .301 .379 .529 with 32 and 120.

But after that his best season over the next 5 years was .247 .368 .458. He only plays 140 games a season since we let him go and is clearly on the downside. I don't think that was a bad move, do you?


Well, that depends would his .800 OPS and steady defense at 3B have made a difference in 2000 in the playoffs?

Lets see how you feel when Maggs and Carlos come up for their FA contracts. Buehrle too.

It isn't that he doesn't TRY to sign guys, it's that he tries to get them for the lowest price possible and when that doesn't work out, he blames the players and the fans.

Case in point: Colon. Was Colon's contract fair? Perhaps. Was it enough? Obviously not. Was the fact that a bunch of the money in the offer was deferred a detriment to re-signing Colon? Clearly the answer is yes.

Also, is the fact that you can't think of anyone who left the team who went on to stardom elsewhere a sign that JR is doing something right or a sign that the Sox just aren't good at developing star level players?

TornLabrum
11-07-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
I'm sorry that the Trib is all that I get to read, but something about working and coaching 12 hours a day makes it hard for me to spend too much time "investigating" or "thinking". I guess it's because I'm too damn lazy.



Have I said ANYTHING about Ozzie being manager other than it is his right to expect the team to be run in the manner in which he sees fit? NO. For the record, I'm not real overjoyed about Ozzie being the new manager, but I do feel that he has the right to do things as he wishes. There's not a damn thing I can do about it.



This is something about this site that bugs me. Anytime someone has a differing opinion about Frank it's because they're "ignorant". We can rant and rave about any other player and getting rid of them, despite their stats (see Ordonez, Magglio), but as soon as you talk about getting rid of Frank you're "ignorant". It's like it's blasphemy to talk about getting rid of him. He's not a saint, nor is anyone else in MLB. He should be treated as everyone else in the game is treated. He shouldn't be treated differently just because he's the greatest hitter in team history, or because people want to see him retire with the team he came up with.

Don't get me wrong, I love this site and probably spend entirely too much time on it, but I will never understand the blind devotion to one man who has (in my eyes) done very little to deserve it. And before you throw the best hitter in team history thing at me, and that is why I should love him, please listen to that statement. If you find nothing wrong with it then fine tell it to me for the 9000th time.

Thiggy, it's like that everywhere else, a curse of the internet. You can't see the other person, so disagreements tend to devolve into name calling. It isn't just on WSI.

Deadguy
11-07-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by jabrch

Outside of the Yanks, how many teams have as much money tied into 3 home grown starting guys as we do in Mags, Frank and PK? (almost 30mm)

Not many that I can think of...

Konerko wasn't homegrown. He came up through the Dodgers organization before being traded to Cincinatti.

jabrch
11-07-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Konerko wasn't homegrown. He came up through the Dodgers organization before being traded to Cincinatti.

True...forgot that for some reason...

RKMeibalane
11-09-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
No, he has run ins with everyone.

Not true. Frank never had these problems with Gene LaMont or Terry Bevington. He and Torborg seemed to get along extremely well IIRC. Everything Torborg has ever said about Frank was positive.

crector
11-10-2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Not true. Frank never had these problems with Gene LaMont or Terry Bevington. He and Torborg seemed to get along extremely well IIRC. Everything Torborg has ever said about Frank was positive.

What that shows is that just because someone like JM is quiet, that does not necessarily mean that his judgment is better than that of a wild man like Terry Bevington. Bevington let Frank be Frank while JM got on Frank's case from Day 1. Also, would David Wells or Paul Konerko have even dared to trash Frank in public if Bevington were the manager instead of JM?

Also, Bevington's W-L pct. of .509 is about the same as JM's pct. of .515 even though Bevington's teams had less talent than JM's teams of 2002 and 2003. Since Bevington basically used the same lineup the whole season while JM had (at least) 150 different lineups in 2002 and 2003, its quite possible that had Bevington had been the manager in 2002 and 2003, that the Sox would have made the playoffs both of those years.

All this makes you wonder if the reason why JR picked Ozzie was because he thought that Ozzie would be the Hispanic Bevington. Only problem is that while Guillen and Bevington had similar personalities, Bevington at least had minor league managing experience , while Guillen has zero experience. Time will tell if JR's hiring a new manager strictly based on his personality instead of professional qualifications will work out in the end.

joepoe
11-11-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Ozzie needs to get a clue about managing PERSONALITIES.
Frank is the kind of guy you have to Leave alone a bit. Ozzie should know better than that, If hes going to be a GOOD MGR, hes going to have to also MANAGE PERSONALITIES. THERE isnt always a Blanket Set of Ways to deal with people.....

What problem can Ozzie have with 42 homers and over 100 RBI's with an OBP of .390??????? Why not pick on someone else, like Konerko the Piano Lugger or Jose the Bambino Valentin???

It amazes me that the first time he opens his yap at a press conference he starts a bunch of crap with this star player!

It is going to be a long two years, if he lasts that long.

TornLabrum
11-11-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by joepoe
What problem can Ozzie have with 42 homers and over 100 RBI's with an OBP of .390??????? Why not pick on someone else, like Konerko the Piano Lugger or Jose the Bambino Valentin???

It amazes me that the first time he opens his yap at a press conference he starts a bunch of crap with this star player!

It is going to be a long two years, if he lasts that long.

What amazes me is the fact that everyone ignores the fact that his comments were the result of a direct question about Frank Thomas asked by Bruce Levine.

voodoochile
11-11-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
What amazes me is the fact that everyone ignores the fact that his comments were the result of a direct question about Frank Thomas asked by Bruce Levine.

But his response doesn't surprise you? Ozzie dropped the ball. He should have made some small meaningless comments ("Proud to have him on the team. Hope he continues to do well. Frank is a great part of this organization. Maybe, I'll play him at first more.") instead of the attack he leveled at Frank for not being a team player.

In the end if Ozzie fails it will indeed be because he does it his way and refuses to find a way to fend off the media beast. Will he say the same thing next spring when Maggs pops out with a man on 2nd and nobody out and the media asks him why?

washington
11-12-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
What amazes me is the fact that everyone ignores the fact that his comments were the result of a direct question about Frank Thomas asked by Bruce Levine.

Why is it so wrong to assume that Ozzie actually meant what he said?

TornLabrum
11-12-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
But his response doesn't surprise you? Ozzie dropped the ball. He should have made some small meaningless comments ("Proud to have him on the team. Hope he continues to do well. Frank is a great part of this organization. Maybe, I'll play him at first more.") instead of the attack he leveled at Frank for not being a team player.

In the end if Ozzie fails it will indeed be because he does it his way and refuses to find a way to fend off the media beast. Will he say the same thing next spring when Maggs pops out with a man on 2nd and nobody out and the media asks him why?

Ah, so you want him to be a politician instead of a leader! Got it.

TornLabrum
11-12-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by washington
Why is it so wrong to assume that Ozzie actually meant what he said?

I didn't say he didn't mean what he said. It just amazes me that they mention Ozzie's "vendetta" against Thomas. BTW, I'm as big a FOBH as there is on this board, so I have no ax to grind that way.

It just puzzles me. This thread makes it look as if Ozzie brought everything up out of the blue. He didn't. He was giving an honest and direct answer to a question.

doublem23
11-12-2003, 10:42 PM
:tomatoaward

voodoochile
11-12-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Ah, so you want him to be a politician instead of a leader! Got it.

When dealing with the press before he has ever sat down with the people in question as their boss, you are damned right I want a little diplomacy. I'd say the same thing if he called out any player on the team the way he did. It was bush league.

Where is it written that a manager has to give the press anything other than sound bites and generic answers?

I'm honestly starting to wonder if Ozzie just likes the lights so much that he will say just about anything to keep the micorphones on.

I expect players to shut up and play. I hope managers will shut up and manage unless they have honestly tried every other approach first and are at their wits end.

TornLabrum
11-13-2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
When dealing with the press before he has ever sat down with the people in question as their boss, you are damned right I want a little diplomacy. I'd say the same thing if he called out any player on the team the way he did. It was bush league.

Where is it written that a manager has to give the press anything other than sound bites and generic answers?

I'm honestly starting to wonder if Ozzie just likes the lights so much that he will say just about anything to keep the micorphones on.

I expect players to shut up and play. I hope managers will shut up and manage unless they have honestly tried every other approach first and are at their wits end.

Did you actually watch the press conference? The impression I got when I watched it gave me nothing like the impression you got from it.

Read this week's "Fallen Arches" column for as close to a verbatim transcript as I could make of his exact answers to the questions put before him.

voodoochile
11-13-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Did you actually watch the press conference? The impression I got when I watched it gave me nothing like the impression you got from it.

Read this week's "Fallen Arches" column for as close to a verbatim transcript as I could make of his exact answers to the questions put before him.

No, those things are never close captioned. I am going by the accounts I have read here and in newspapers.

Still, even if asked the question, why would anyone repond the way he did? It just makes no sense.

joepoe
11-13-2003, 10:12 AM
http://hometown.aol.com/joepoe/images/ozzie1.bmp

TornLabrum
11-13-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, those things are never close captioned. I am going by the accounts I have read here and in newspapers.

Still, even if asked the question, why would anyone repond the way he did? It just makes no sense.

In answer to Grobber's question, his response made sense. It was essentially, if the players fail to move the runners over with men on first and second and nobody out, then the next time, even it it's "Frank or Magglio," they bunt. Hmmm...why those two names? Possibly because they are the two big guns on the team?

As far as his second set of comments, Levine asked the following question: "Your relationship with Frank Thomas: How do you expect Frank to play for you, and could you talk about some of your history with him, some of your ups and downs with him?" He responded the way he did because it was the appropriate answer.

voodoochile
11-13-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
In answer to Grobber's question, his response made sense. It was essentially, if the players fail to move the runners over with men on first and second and nobody out, then the next time, even it it's "Frank or Magglio," they bunt. Hmmm...why those two names? Possibly because they are the two big guns on the team?

As far as his second set of comments, Levine asked the following question: "Your relationship with Frank Thomas: How do you expect Frank to play for you, and could you talk about some of your history with him, some of your ups and downs with him?" He responded the way he did because it was the appropriate answer.

I'm gonna' have to agree to disagree on this one. I think his answers should have been more generic until he had a chance to sit down with Frank and even Magglio too. Given his history with Frank, it was a poor way to handle the situation, IMO.