PDA

View Full Version : Score Reports Valentin Back


Dub25
11-05-2003, 09:50 PM
I heard on the score tonight that the Sox have picked up Jose's option. Reported 4mil for next year. I thought it was supposed to be 5. I thought he would take less to comeback. Is a million dollar difference going to help this team or hurt? Maybe KW figures 4 mil for Jose and a million for Graf and then we would have the platoon that has been mentioned on these boards.

StepsInSC
11-05-2003, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
I heard on the score tonight that the Sox have picked up Jose's option. Reported 4mil for next year. I thought it was supposed to be 5. I thought he would take less to comeback. Is a million dollar difference going to help this team or hurt? Maybe KW figures 4 mil for Jose and a million for Graf and then we would have the platoon that has been mentioned on these boards.

Compared to 5, 4 is better. :D:

I know there weren't a whole lot of other options out there, but why am I still so dissapointed to hear this?

Dub25
11-05-2003, 09:54 PM
Maybe it's his swing for the fence approach and the big hole in his glove that he can't ever seem to get rid of.

StepsInSC
11-05-2003, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
Maybe it's his swing for the fence approach and the big hole in his glove that he can't ever seem to get rid of.


Hmmmm. Nah that can't be it. Its just this instinct I have.

jeremyb1
11-05-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
I heard on the score tonight that the Sox have picked up Jose's option. Reported 4mil for next year. I thought it was supposed to be 5. I thought he would take less to comeback. Is a million dollar difference going to help this team or hurt? Maybe KW figures 4 mil for Jose and a million for Graf and then we would have the platoon that has been mentioned on these boards.

4 is actually comperable to 3.5 also since we'd have to buy him out for half a million dollars. I still would rather not have given Jose quite that much money but if the option is only 4, I guess I can cope.

cornball
11-05-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Compared to 5, 4 is better. :D:

I know there weren't a whole lot of other options out there, but why am I still so dissapointed to hear this?

I am too!! 4 million for this butcher. If he is worth 4, I hate to see what Tejada gets.

Daver
11-05-2003, 10:23 PM
Consider the source,I would wait till it is reported from a reliable source.

doublem23
11-05-2003, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Consider the source,I would wait till it is reported from a reliable source.

Thank you for saying it.

Brian26
11-05-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Consider the source,I would wait till it is reported from a reliable source.


:julie

"Kiss my ass!"

joecrede
11-05-2003, 10:37 PM
Shortstop's OPS Vs. Right-Handers:

1. Rodriguez .969 (426 AB's)
2. Valentin .881 (396 AB's)
3. Garciaparra .844 (487 AB's)
5. Jeter .817 (387 AB's)
10. Tejada .799 (469 AB's)

Valentin @ $4M for a year (if true) is a very good deal.

SoxxoS
11-05-2003, 10:39 PM
I'm confused. Is Jose a grinder? Let me know.

Brian26
11-05-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I'm confused. Is Jose a grinder? Let me know.

:manos

"Kiss my ass!"

cornball
11-05-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Shortstop's OPS Vs. Right-Handers:

1. Rodriguez .969 (426 AB's)
2. Valentin .881 (396 AB's)
3. Garciaparra .844 (487 AB's)
5. Jeter .817 (387 AB's)
10. Tejada .799 (469 AB's)

Valentin @ $4M for a year (if true) is a very good deal.

Whats the stats vs. lefty's. There are many other stats not so flattering like his batting average for one.

If you think he is worth 4MM, on a budget crunched team in need of pitching..well....wow is all i can say.

I thought Ozzie said in his press conference defense was his main priority, if this is true...I guess we know how much weight he is carrying.

Deadguy
11-05-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
I heard on the score tonight that the Sox have picked up Jose's option. Reported 4mil for next year. I thought it was supposed to be 5. I thought he would take less to comeback. Is a million dollar difference going to help this team or hurt? Maybe KW figures 4 mil for Jose and a million for Graf and then we would have the platoon that has been mentioned on these boards.

Glad he's back. A team leader and one of our best clutch hitters.

doublem23
11-05-2003, 10:57 PM
The only reason he's back is that he's the only guy on this team that knows how to bunt.

:)

batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 11:03 PM
Why was my Valentin thread moved when it was posted hours before this one? And into another thread that wasn't about Valentin's option being picked up..

MRKARNO
11-05-2003, 11:04 PM
Shortstops are low in supply so this was probably the right move. You can still platoon him with Graf. Ideally he would have gotten a few mil less, but I think the White Sox realized that the lowest they could get his contract was into the 3.5-4 range + the .5 mil buyout and then we wouldnt be guarenteed to get him back. Relatively I think this was indeed the best move

joecrede
11-05-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Whats the stats vs. lefty's. There are many other stats not so flattering like his batting average for one.

He's terrible vs. lefties, so play Gaffanino the majority of the time. Valentin is more important to this team then he might be to another because he's the only legit threat from the left side. Batting Average? Who cares?

If you think he is worth 4MM, on a budget crunched team in need of pitching..well....wow is all i can say.

And if they would have signed a pitcher with Valentin's money we would be in need of a shortstop and there's no pitcher available at $4M that would make up for that hole.

I thought Ozzie said in his press conference defense was his main priority, if this is true...I guess we know how much weight he is carrying.

Valentin's an average defender. No worse. Shortsops make errors, it's the nature of the position.

MisterB
11-05-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Shortstops are low in supply so this was probably the right move. You can still platoon him with Graf. Ideally he would have gotten a few mil less, but I think the White Sox realized that the lowest they could get his contract was into the 3.5-4 range + the .5 mil buyout and then we wouldnt be guarenteed to get him back. Relatively I think this was indeed the best move

Well, by my estimates the Sox payroll for next year is around $54m. You think KW can sign Ponson, Robbie, Sandy, Graffy and a couple of bullpen arms for $1 - $6 million total? No way.

Frank the Tank
11-06-2003, 12:09 AM
I would much sooner pay $4M for Jose Valentin than $8M for Konerko.

WhiteSox = Life
11-06-2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
The only reason he's back is that he's the only guy on this team that knows how to bunt.

:)

:manos
"Oh, come on. You all know it's because of my porn star 'stache."

SoxxoS
11-06-2003, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
I would much sooner pay $4M for Jose Valentin than $8M for Konerko.

Is death an option?

Frank the Tank
11-06-2003, 12:57 AM
Valentin isn't that bad. He makes a lot of errors, but he also does a lot to help the team win. He hits a lot of HRs, and usually is a good base runner. There is no way the sox could have signed Tejada and there is really no better shortstop on the market. His stache is filthy!

SoxxoS
11-06-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
Valentin isn't that bad. He makes a lot of errors, but he also does a lot to help the team win. He hits a lot of HRs, and usually is a good base runner. There is no way the sox could have signed Tejada and there is really no better shortstop on the market. His stache is filthy!

Note: Agressive baserunner doesn't always mean "good" baserunner.

john2499
11-06-2003, 01:29 AM
I think he has to bat exclusively left handed. Right handed he hit .131 with a OBP of .190 and SLG. .196. . I think you could stroll someone out there, with a toe tag on, and get more production.

crector
11-06-2003, 02:25 AM
This is an interesting move on KW's part especially given Ozzie's purported love of smallball and defense. Valentin is a pure HR hitter who is not what you would ever call Gold Glove material.

Former Sox player Royce Clayton makes a much better fit into the smallball/defense concept. Clayton had solid defense and was a pure singles hitter. His batting average would have ranked him among the best hitters on the 1967 White Sox which was a great example of what a smallball/defense team is like.

Makes you wonder if KW understands what a smallball/defense team is like doesn't it? Or is this smallball/defense stuff just the means by which Ozzie can dump on Frank?

cornball
11-06-2003, 07:12 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joecrede
[B]He's terrible vs. lefties, so play Gaffanino the majority of the time. Valentin is more important to this team then he might be to another because he's the only legit threat from the left side. Batting Average? Who cares?

Hello!!!! Graffanino is a FA, there is no guarentee he is coming back. Add another 1MM+ to the total. This team has a self restricted budget. I wouldn't pay 4MM for a platoon player.

And if they would have signed a pitcher with Valentin's money we would be in need of a shortstop and there's no pitcher available at $4M that would make up for that hole.

There will be plenty of alternatives for shortstop. I laugh at the OPS stats, that usually only come up when a player is lousy in all other categories. When a player is considered for the Hall of Fame, that OPS usually puts him over the top. In the case of Valentin, last year hitting 237 with 114 K's, although traditional, tells me much more. BTY 246 career hitter.


Valentin made 20 errors last year, which should have been 30. The official scoring was the worst I have seen, in following baseball in decades. BTY he is a 95.8% fielder while at shortstop. I wouldn't call him average, nor do the majority of scouts. The Sox apparently don't think so either, having brought Clayton in to shore up the position a few years ago. His only major asset is the occational long ball, which would contradict the whole Ozzie press conference.

I don't mind we disagree, we both have the same goal of the Sox putting the most competitive team on the field. I just believe, with a dramatic change in the baseball economics in the past two years and knowing what JV will bring......he is not worth 4MM per to me. Especially when the budget is as limited at it is and with major holes in the pitching staff.

gosox41
11-06-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Dub25
I heard on the score tonight that the Sox have picked up Jose's option. Reported 4mil for next year. I thought it was supposed to be 5. I thought he would take less to comeback. Is a million dollar difference going to help this team or hurt? Maybe KW figures 4 mil for Jose and a million for Graf and then we would have the platoon that has been mentioned on these boards.

This is certainly not one of the shrewdest moves KW has made. Notas bad as trading for Koch or Ritchie, but a pretty dumb move. Pretty much guarantees a trade of an OF'er and maybe more. Also, that money being applied to Valentin means less money to spend on pitching.

I hope KW has a grand plan.

Bob

BeerHandle
11-06-2003, 08:04 AM
I heard on the radio that Valentin signed for $5 mil. I have not found any other sources to confirm. If this is the case, I'm not happy. At $5 mil he is overpaid!

crector
11-06-2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I heard on the radio that Valentin signed for $5 mil. I have not found any other sources to confirm. If this is the case, I'm not happy. At $5 mil he is overpaid!


Yes, KW sure has mastered the GM position, hasn't he?


Look for Danny Wright to be a starting pitcher this year because we couldn't afford the services of Ponson or any other decent FA starters. Of course, its the fans' fault that HR fanatic and bad fielder Valentin is coming back to the tune of $5 mil. just when Ozzie has proclaimed the return of small ball to the Sox complete with bountiful bunting and fearless fielding.

fledgedrallycap
11-06-2003, 08:25 AM
Not that I support the signing and there may be a chance for an offseason trade - but look at the FA Market, outside of Tejada, there isn't anyone much better than Jose.

poorme
11-06-2003, 08:34 AM
Seemed like the only option. Valentin for $4.5 million or some absolute bum like Rey Sanchez for $2 million. Also, Valentin would be easy to deal if the Sox are in last place in June.

chisoxjk
11-06-2003, 08:48 AM
You also need to remember that it would have cost them $500,000 if they did not pick up his option.

w/ the shortstop market as tight as it is, someone was going to offer him $5 mil a year. If we let him go, and are forced to match, it ends up costing an extra 1/2 mil.

rcescato
11-06-2003, 08:56 AM
The problem is we don't have a shortstop in our system.The prospect of possibly being left with Clayton Island gain did
not sit well with KW. There is just no way a 55-60 mil payroll
is possible. We are at 55 already. Whats he going to do trade everybody for prospects. I also read in the trib that KW is going to seriously pursue Sidney Ponson. I hope this is true.
Rich

hold2dibber
11-06-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by poorme
Seemed like the only option. Valentin for $4.5 million or some absolute bum like Rey Sanchez for $2 million. Also, Valentin would be easy to deal if the Sox are in last place in June.

The Sox are going to have to trade one of the corner outfielders anyway to reduce payroll - why not package one of them for a decent shortstop and spend the money on a pitcher?

Jose is a solid platoon player. But he should NEVER bat against a left handed pitcher. Which means he should get about 375 ABs/year. They're paying a lot of money for a guy who should be a platoon.

FarWestChicago
11-06-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by cornball
The Sox apparently don't think so either, having brought Clayton in to shore up the position a few years ago.Weren't you one of the founding FOB's? :smile:

:buddylee

I'm available. Campaign for me!!

soxtalker
11-06-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by poorme
Seemed like the only option. Valentin for $4.5 million or some absolute bum like Rey Sanchez for $2 million. Also, Valentin would be easy to deal if the Sox are in last place in June.

Are there any restrictions on dealing Valentin? Unless it is in the contract, I wouldn't think so, since he hasn't been with the club for 10 years. So, if KW happens to make a trade that produces a better option at SS, he is able to trade Valentin. I'm not saying that this is the reason he exercised the option -- just thinking of other possibilities down the road.

KingXerxes
11-06-2003, 10:58 AM
Okay - let me get this straight:

We re-sign Valentin, and now we're going all out to re-sign the Alomars.

Exactly where are we going to play "the grinders" once they appear?

This is starting to look more and more like a rudderless ship. They should have told Valentin "Good Luck." and signed Graffanino for a lot less - and then allocated the savings toward acquiring a pitcher.

WHAT IS THE PLAN HERE?

CubKilla
11-06-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Note: Agressive baserunner doesn't always mean "good" baserunner.

There were a few occasions last season where I'd categorize some of Jose's "aggressive baserunning" as stupid baserunning. Getting thrown out by 20 feet isn't what I'd deem aggressive.

CubKilla
11-06-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I heard on the radio that Valentin signed for $5 mil. I have not found any other sources to confirm. If this is the case, I'm not happy. At $5 mil he is overpaid!

So much for the pay-cut Jose was "willing" to take for the Sox to remain competitive with JR's self-imposed salary restrictions.

SoxxoS
11-06-2003, 11:07 AM
I wish KW said that he would pick up his option, ONLY if he hits exclusively LEFT HANDED. Yes, even against lefties.

I'm telling ya...
Alomar
Valentin
Borchard

if they are ever in the lineup together, those are the worst three switch hitters in one lineup in baseball history.

KingXerxes
11-06-2003, 11:19 AM
Maybe a "grinder" means - Lousy Switch Hitter. If that's the case this all makes sense.

I wrote this on another thread - but this pick-up really has me worried. Are we in such dire straights at shortstop that we would allocate $5 million of what we have left (not much) to Jose Valentin? We need pitching. I would have gladly settled for Graffanino as the everyday shortstop if it meant that the savings would have been used toward a good starter.

I am now convinced that a major "salary dump" trade is going to take place - it simply has to. Ordonez seems to be the prime candidate, and they'll probably try and package him with Koch or Konerko. The problem is - at $14 million next year - I'm not sure how many takers there are going to be for Magglio Ordonez.

Lip Man 1
11-06-2003, 11:38 AM
A few points:

1. Valentin already took a pay cut when he signed with the Sox four years ago. The Orioles offered six million more over the course of the deal. He did his part.

2. If not Jose' then who???? And please let's not restart the goofy talk about the Sox going after Tejada or Kaz. That was never in the minds of the Sox...not even a passing fancy.

3. It appears in fact that most of the positional free agents are coming back (with the big exception of Everett)

4. Bit the question remains...PITCHING , PITCHING , PITCHING. Where is it going to come from? Who is resigned? and who is acquired or signed to take Colon's place?

It seems to me it was easier for Williams to take care of the positional players first before turning his attention to the pitching staff which still needs a starter (maybe two) and still needs to deal with potentially resigning Gordon and Sullivan.

As far as the self imposed salary limitations perhaps the first real comment about that came in Teddy Greenstein's story on Jose today in the Tribune. Greenstein wrote that the Sox now must trade (notice the wording) one or two of their highest salaried players or raise the payroll above sixty million. Since the latter is NOT going to happen, look for the former to take place. perhaps that's where the Sox are going to get their pitching from.

Just a thought.

Lip

jeremyb1
11-06-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by chisoxjk
You also need to remember that it would have cost them $500,000 if they did not pick up his option.

w/ the shortstop market as tight as it is, someone was going to offer him $5 mil a year. If we let him go, and are forced to match, it ends up costing an extra 1/2 mil.

I really don't think that's true. I highly doubt anyone would have offered Jose more than about 3 million per season on the open market and we just gave him 5 million, 4.5 million if you take his buyout into account. We're talking about a player who hit .237 in a league where GM's are still highly concerned with batting average and a severely depressed market. We're going to look quite foolish in a few more weeks when more players start to sign. Watch Cabrera get non-tendered and then signed for less than we're paying Jose. Stranger things have happened.

Lip Man 1
11-06-2003, 11:46 AM
I think part of "the plan" was already stated twice by Williams starting with Manuel's firing on Sept. 29th.

Williams told fans that it was, in essence, going to be a long off season with signings as late as January or early February.

What he is hoping is that the glut of free agents, and limitations throughout baseball on salaries is going to force some pretty good players to take less money just to have a job. Those players could wind up with the Sox.

I don't agree with that philosophy because it's a big gamble, but when your organization is more concerned with payroll and profits then pennants, I don't know what else you can do.

Lip

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by john2499
I think he has to bat exclusively left handed. Right handed he hit .131 with a OBP of .190 and SLG. .196. . I think you could stroll someone out there, with a toe tag on, and get more production.

Jose's comment about not liking to bat Leftie against LHP this last season seemed to include the possibility that he would work on it during the off season.

Given the way he has made changes for the team in the past (playing exclusively CF one off-season to prepare for the Position on the Sox) it wouldn't surprise me if that was his plan.

BeerHandle
11-06-2003, 12:10 PM
You are right. It will be a long winter. However, this is what I think will happen to free up money.

Koch = Traded to Mets for prospects
Kornerk= to Arizona for prospects

If this happens that is about $13-15 mil freed up.

hold2dibber
11-06-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
You are right. It will be a long winter. However, this is what I think will happen to free up money.

Koch = Traded to Mets for prospects
Kornerk= to Arizona for prospects

If this happens that is about $13-15 mil freed up.

Do you have any particular reason to think AZ might take on Konerko and his monstrous contract? I've heard that the D'backs are looking to reduce payroll. And even if they didn't mind taking on payroll, it would seem more likely that they'd try to sign a FA, like Palmiero, Fullmer, McGriff, Karros, Cordero, Galarraga, etc. to play 1B rather than take on PK. All of those guys were better than PK and you could probably get any of them for $2 million instead of the $8 million due PK. Am I missing something here?

MisterB
11-06-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think part of "the plan" was already stated twice by Williams starting with Manuel's firing on Sept. 29th.

Williams told fans that it was, in essence, going to be a long off season with signings as late as January or early February.

What he is hoping is that the glut of free agents, and limitations throughout baseball on salaries is going to force some pretty good players to take less money just to have a job. Those players could wind up with the Sox.

I don't agree with that philosophy because it's a big gamble, but when your organization is more concerned with payroll and profits then pennants, I don't know what else you can do.

Lip

Unfortunately the 'glut' of players are not at positions we need. Shortstop, secondbase, centerfield all have a couple of good players and a lot of drek. There are a ton a so-so pitchers and corner outfielders out there, but not much of quality. Between the lack of good free agents (which we can't afford anyway), and the JR's payroll constraint, I get the feeling that this team willl either look much the same as last year (with kids or low-rent, low-quality FA's filling holes) or else KW will wind up dealing anyone of reasonable quality (Maggs, Lee, Marte, Buehrle, Loaiza) that he can get some kind of talent for. Either way, the outlook isn't too bright for next year.

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Unfortunately the 'glut' of players are not at positions we need. Shortstop, secondbase, centerfield all have a couple of good players and a lot of drek. There are a ton a so-so pitchers and corner outfielders out there, but not much of quality. Between the lack of good free agents (which we can't afford anyway), and the JR's payroll constraint, I get the feeling that this team willl either look much the same as last year (with kids or low-rent, low-quality FA's filling holes) or else KW will wind up dealing anyone of reasonable quality (Maggs, Lee, Marte, Buehrle, Loaiza) that he can get some kind of talent for. Either way, the outlook isn't too bright for next year.

Yes, but the window that is open to the Sox is open NOW. In 3 years time, Buehrle will be gone. Frank will probably be gone. Maggs and Lee and Garland will all be UFA's. Valentin will be 38. Robbie Alomar will be over 40. Loaiza will probably be gone or at least be 35 so he probably won't be as effective. The only guys who will definitely be on the team will be Olivo and Crede.

So, the Sox mithg be interested in some close to the end of their careers players to fill the gaps and make another run at the playoffs or two.

RichH55
11-06-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by crector
This is an interesting move on KW's part especially given Ozzie's purported love of smallball and defense. Valentin is a pure HR hitter who is not what you would ever call Gold Glove material.

Former Sox player Royce Clayton makes a much better fit into the smallball/defense concept. Clayton had solid defense and was a pure singles hitter. His batting average would have ranked him among the best hitters on the 1967 White Sox which was a great example of what a smallball/defense team is like.

Makes you wonder if KW understands what a smallball/defense team is like doesn't it? Or is this smallball/defense stuff just the means by which Ozzie can dump on Frank?


If Royce Clayton = Small Ball.....put me down for whatever the opposite of it is

SoxxoS
11-06-2003, 12:56 PM
I can't worry about the future with this team. There are too many variables.

We were supposed to be in our "dynasty" years currently, and that hasn't worked out too well. Matter of fact, Baseball America had us in the World Series in 2004 with a rotation consisting of "studs" Wells, Garland, Rauch, Wright and Buerhle.

Who knows what can happen. In 2000, we were supposed to be rebuilding, and we won the division. Expect the unexpected with this team/management. Worry about the current year, it will do a lot of good.

Hey, In 2006 we might have Mark Cuban as our owner.

cornball
11-06-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A few points:

1. Valentin already took a pay cut when he signed with the Sox four years ago. The Orioles offered six million more over the course of the deal. He did his part.

2. If not Jose' then who???? And please let's not restart the goofy talk about the Sox going after Tejada or Kaz. That was never in the minds of the Sox...not even a passing fancy.

3. It appears in fact that most of the positional free agents are coming back (with the big exception of Everett)

4. Bit the question remains...PITCHING , PITCHING , PITCHING. Where is it going to come from? Who is resigned? and who is acquired or signed to take Colon's place?

It seems to me it was easier for Williams to take care of the positional players first before turning his attention to the pitching staff which still needs a starter (maybe two) and still needs to deal with potentially resigning Gordon and Sullivan.

As far as the self imposed salary limitations perhaps the first real comment about that came in Teddy Greenstein's story on Jose today in the Tribune. Greenstein wrote that the Sox now must trade (notice the wording) one or two of their highest salaried players or raise the payroll above sixty million. Since the latter is NOT going to happen, look for the former to take place. perhaps that's where the Sox are going to get their pitching from.

Just a thought.

Lip


Lip the market has dramatically changed in 2 years....ask Manny Rameriez, Frank Thomas, Sammy Sosa they will tell you.

Baltimore offered Valentin 21.5 for 4 years not 6 million more.

The point I was trying to make earlier was can you live with Jose, sure...but for 4-5 million....NO WAY he is not worth it. Play it out let the market settle a little and you would get a shortstop.

Now that we are stuck with him, I will shut up about him. It just pains me to listen to management cry about budgets when they have a payroll in the bottom half of the league and sign dump deals like this.

joecrede
11-06-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by cornball
The point I was trying to make earlier was can you live with Jose, sure...but for 4-5 million....NO WAY he is not worth it. Play it out let the market settle a little and you would get a shortstop

What is Valentin worth? If Valentin goes on the open market who is to say he comes back here even if the Sox offer is the highest one? He might say "screw you". Then you're left with Sanchez, Clayton, Cruz, Hernandez. Terrible options.

Also, where do they put the left-handed bat to replace Valentin? LF? Fine by me, but they would still be (at least) one left-handed hitter short for my liking even conceding Reed in center.

john2499
11-06-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Jose's comment about not liking to bat Leftie against LHP this last season seemed to include the possibility that he would work on it during the off season.

Given the way he has made changes for the team in the past (playing exclusively CF one off-season to prepare for the Position on the Sox) it wouldn't surprise me if that was his plan.

That would be good. He is productive as a LH. If TG comes back he could face LHP.

Gumshoe
11-06-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
If Royce Clayton = Small Ball.....put me down for whatever the opposite of it is


Haha! I love that one. I can't stand even hearing Rolls Royce's name.

MisterB
11-06-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
If Royce Clayton = Small Ball.....put me down for whatever the opposite of it is

:hitless
"I know Ozzie has a soft spot for no-hit shortstops..."

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 03:55 PM
I made a promise to myself that I'd get a Clayton jersey with "0-3" on the back. I think that would be a smash hit.

Win1ForMe
11-06-2003, 04:12 PM
To me, this is a bad idea. If you're going to allocate that much money into the SS position, why not just spend a little more and go after a real player like Kaz Matsui? He's not going to get more than $6.5M per year and he might have actually helped the Sox, you know, get some fans into the ballpark.

Also, I would like to see the list of teams willing to give Jose that type of money. I have my doubts as to the level of interest. Jose Hernandez hit for a higher avg. (.288) with comparable power numbers (24 HRs) in 2002 and couldn't get more than a 1 yr./$1 M deal in 2003.

And the last thing I want to hear is the Sox cry when it comes to getting pitching. That $5 million would have been much better spent on Gordon to solidify the bullpen. Heck, just about any good reliever (i.e. Hawkins) isn't likely to get more than $5 million.

oldcomiskey
11-06-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by crector
This is an interesting move on KW's part especially given Ozzie's purported love of smallball and defense. Valentin is a pure HR hitter who is not what you would ever call Gold Glove material.

Former Sox player Royce Clayton makes a much better fit into the smallball/defense concept. Clayton had solid defense and was a pure singles hitter. His batting average would have ranked him among the best hitters on the 1967 White Sox which was a great example of what a smallball/defense team is like.

Makes you wonder if KW understands what a smallball/defense team is like doesn't it? Or is this smallball/defense stuff just the means by which Ozzie can dump on Frank?

One reason may be that Valentin gets to balls most modern shortstops only think about--there is a thing called range factor

RichH55
11-06-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
One reason may be that Valentin gets to balls most modern shortstops only think about--there is a thing called range factor

He's also great at turning the double play

basilesox
11-07-2003, 12:38 AM
I am suprised that not many people know that Jose Valentin is this team's clubhouse leader and also their best hitter in the clutch (late innings, with runner in scoring position) over the last 4 years. He also has the ability to bunt, which certain players (Carlos Lee) on the team have showed they dont have. Players like this dont just grow on trees, but I guess since we have so many other leaders in the clubhouse and always play with such fierce competitiveness, we could have easily gone without Jose's services next year.

StillMissOzzie
11-07-2003, 01:01 AM
Overall, I'm glad that Manos will be back for another year. I concur that the tight-walleted JR would never give a thought about Tejada (and won't it hurt if he ends up with the Scrubs?) I also concur that the other FA options weren't that good. His agent claimed that he had 4-5 other teams interested, not that an agent would ever lie about stuff like that.

The part that bugs me is the price. I just can't stand that the Sox are gonna be crying poor when it comes to getting another pitcher or two when they have dropped $5 million on Manos.

Let's hope that they can get a bag of baseballs for Koch.

SMO
:gulp:

dugwood31
11-07-2003, 01:28 AM
My guess is the KW has a decent sense of the market, and decided not to roll the dice in free agency when we have a known quantity in Jose. We've talked about the range and his skill turning the double play, but we haven't mentioned the great arm. Plus, if we'd lost Jose, we'd have no left handed run producers to balance the lineup. Now we got one, at least.

Procol Harum
11-07-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by basilesox
I am suprised that not many people know that Jose Valentin is this team's clubhouse leader

Talk about damning with faint praise...