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batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 02:37 PM
Can we just get a pitcher that isn't fat? I mean, this is gonna be the fourth year in a row that our big offseason acquisition is a fat starting pitcher. (I know Ritchie wasn't in the same class is Wells or Colon, but we can all agree he pitched as if he were just as fat if not monumentally fatter).

I mean this guy's very name, Ponson, is an Italian slang word for "fat boy." Ey! Ponson, shuttupa you mouth-ah!

Sorry for the inane post, but hear me out...these guys were all bums for us. Colon is easily the best of all of 'em, but the guy spent most of the year around or below .500 and just barely ended up above that mark. And I heard things (I heard things..) about Ponson's health in that his arm isn't gonna hold up and Tommy John is a possibility, or something along those lines. I'm not in favor of signing Ponson, not only because he's fat, but traditionally he's not that good. There's a very good chance he'll regress to his usual .500 record with a mid 4 era. Get someone else.

StepsInSC
11-05-2003, 03:04 PM
True but a large percentage of pitchers are hefty, especially in the butt region. All I care about is performance. If he performed good then I'd sign Meatloaf's bitch-tit character from Fight Club.

batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 03:19 PM
Most pitchers are not hefty, come on. It's true a higher rate of pitchers are fat than position players, but they're still in the minority. I know this because Tyler knows this.

washington
11-05-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo

I mean this guy's very name, Ponson, is an Italian slang word for "fat boy." Ey! Ponson, shuttupa you mouth-ah!

Mr. Rapoport will be disturbed to see the anti-Italian bias of this site.

batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 03:30 PM
Suh-wish!

LuvSox
11-05-2003, 03:42 PM
It must be all of the great food in Chicago that attracts these guys.

"Chicago? I'll play dere, dey got that deep dish pizza, right? Don't forget about the Saaa-sauge!" :smile:

hold2dibber
11-05-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Can we just get a pitcher that isn't fat? I mean, this is gonna be the fourth year in a row that our big offseason acquisition is a fat starting pitcher. (I know Ritchie wasn't in the same class is Wells or Colon, but we can all agree he pitched as if he were just as fat if not monumentally fatter).

I mean this guy's very name, Ponson, is an Italian slang word for "fat boy." Ey! Ponson, shuttupa you mouth-ah!

Sorry for the inane post, but hear me out...these guys were all bums for us. Colon is easily the best of all of 'em, but the guy spent most of the year around or below .500 and just barely ended up above that mark. And I heard things (I heard things..) about Ponson's health in that his arm isn't gonna hold up and Tommy John is a possibility, or something along those lines. I'm not in favor of signing Ponson, not only because he's fat, but traditionally he's not that good. There's a very good chance he'll regress to his usual .500 record with a mid 4 era. Get someone else.

I think Ponson makes the most sense of any of the other FA starters out there (well, I'd prefer Pettite, but there's no way that's going to happen), regardless of his size. He also doesn't seem nearly as rotund as Wells, or even as Colon. Any way, I don't really care how fat he is - in fact, the Sox have a history of successful rotund pitchers (Wilber Wood, LaMarr Hoyt, Wilson Alvarez, Alex Fernandez, Colon). You can make a decent argument against signing Ponson - but I don't think his size has anything to do with it.

kbriley
11-05-2003, 03:55 PM
Maybe we should bring back Carlos Castillo.

batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 03:56 PM
hold2dibber,

I disagree on signing Ponson. In my opinion we should go for someone cheaper and just bank on Buehrle and Loaiza being solid frontmen. And that's not being too presumptuous I think. Someone along the lines of Miguel Batista of Arizona or Kelvim Escobar unless there's a bidding war over him.

As for the fat part, I agree with you in the end. But I just think it's bad karma to sign another tubby pitcher. Although that isn't my deciding factor. lol

Champ Summers
11-05-2003, 03:59 PM
We DID bring back Carlos Castillo!!!


http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/transactions/trans.html

kraut83
11-05-2003, 04:14 PM
If we want to go fat and old, Fernando Valenzuela probably isn't doing anything!

washington
11-05-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by kraut83
If we want to go fat and old, Fernando Valenzuela probably isn't doing anything!

:jaime

I'm not either!!

voodoochile
11-05-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by washington
:jaime

I'm not either!!

Which probably explains why my car hasn't been delivered either...

Brian26
11-05-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Can we just get a pitcher that isn't fat? I mean, this is gonna be the fourth year in a row that our big offseason acquisition is a fat starting pitcher.


This might be the dumbest post I've ever read on this message board. Seriously.

voodoochile
11-05-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
This might be the dumbest post I've ever read on this message board. Seriously.

Try it again, but this time take your tongue and plant it firmly in your cheek...

cheeses_h_rice
11-05-2003, 05:11 PM
I can see where you're coming from, considering how dominating Garland, Cotts and Rauch are.

Brian26
11-05-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Try it again, but this time take your tongue and plant it firmly in your cheek...

Do I need to starting listing Cy Young award winners that were overweight? The list is going to get very long...

:hawk

"In a hurry"

voodoochile
11-05-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Do I need to starting listing Cy Young award winners that were overweight? The list is going to get very long...

:hawk

"In a hurry"

If you have a list, I would love to see it, because it is an interesting concept, but don't confuse effect with causation.

Brian26
11-05-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If you have a list, I would love to see it, because it is an interesting concept, but don't confuse effect with causation.

I'm not saying fat pitchers make great pitchers.

I'm saying fat pitchers can be great.

I think the original post that "we have to stop signing fat pitchers" is ignorant.

A quick list, off the top of my head of some "fat" pitchers:

LaMarr Hoyt (our own '83 Cy Young)
Fernando Valenzuela ('81 ROY)
David Wells (Cy Young winner)
Roger Clemens (Cy Young winner)
Bartolo Colon (a horse)
Denny McClain

These guys popped into my head immediately. If you need more names, let me know.

Daver
11-05-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by kbriley
Maybe we should bring back Carlos Castillo.

The Sox signed him to a minor league contract last month.

Hondo
11-05-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm not saying fat pitchers make great pitchers.

I'm saying fat pitchers can be great.

I think the original post that "we have to stop signing fat pitchers" is ignorant.

A quick list, off the top of my head of some "fat" pitchers:

LaMarr Hoyt (our own '83 Cy Young)
Fernando Valenzuela ('81 ROY)
David Wells (Cy Young winner)
Roger Clemens (Cy Young winner)
Bartolo Colon (a horse)
Denny McClain

These guys popped into my head immediately. If you need more names, let me know.

Well I heard Denny McClain is no longer "detained" let's see what he's doing!!

batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 07:25 PM
Every day you set the mark for the dumbest thing ever written here. You're so hung up on the pseudo-intellectual internet snob role, you can't see humor in anything. You're very transparent, fool. Thanks for the laughs. Seriously.

FarWestChicago
11-05-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Every day you set the mark for the dumbest thing ever written here. You're so hung up on the pseudo-intellectual internet snob role, you can't see humor in anything. You're very transparent, fool. Thanks for the laughs. Seriously. Who? :?:

batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 08:18 PM
FWC, see post 14.

Brian26
11-05-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Who? :?:

He doesn't know how to edit text or add quotes, so you have to go back and look up post #14.

:smile:

whitesoxwilkes
11-05-2003, 11:32 PM
Sidney's not fat. He's just a big dude in the mold of Clemens. Doesn't have that roly-poly Garces or Colon look-he's just kinda, well, thick.

TDog
11-06-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
I'm not saying fat pitchers make great pitchers.

I'm saying fat pitchers can be great.

I think the original post that "we have to stop signing fat pitchers" is ignorant.

A quick list, off the top of my head of some "fat" pitchers:

LaMarr Hoyt (our own '83 Cy Young)
Fernando Valenzuela ('81 ROY)
David Wells (Cy Young winner)
Roger Clemens (Cy Young winner)
Bartolo Colon (a horse)
Denny McClain

These guys popped into my head immediately. If you need more names, let me know.

Wilbur Wood should have won the Cy Young Award in 1972.

I'm not sure how hefty Denny McLain was when he won the award in the late 1960s. LaMarr Hoyt carried a few more pounds into his post-Cy Young season. And Terry "Big Fat Tub of Goo" Forster was a lot thinner when he came up with the Sox.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 02:01 PM
TDog,

This was never a debate about whether fat guys can pitch or not until Brian (aka Corky from Life Goes On) turned it into that by, as usual, failing to comprehend my post.

All I ever said was let's not get another fat pitcher because it's just bad karma at this point. I never said fat pitchers can't pitch. Roger Clemens isn't the slimmest guy I've ever seen. Wells is a pig, and he's been a pretty darn good pitcher overall if you overlook his stint with us.

Brian26
11-06-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
TDog,

This was never a debate about whether fat guys can pitch or not until Brian (aka Corky from Life Goes On) turned it into that by, as usual, failing to comprehend my post.

I didn't have any trouble comprehending your post. The post was ignorant. Let's move on.

Brian26
11-06-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Colon is easily the best of all of 'em, but the guy spent most of the year around or below .500 and just barely ended up above that mark.

Ridiculous statement. Colon was strong as an ox for us. Don't judge a guy by his record, especially when he got very little run support for most of the year.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 02:19 PM
bri,

It was not ignorant at all. If it were, how come only you had a problem with it? It was just ignorant of you to get what you got out of it. Now we can move on.

Colon was a letdown. Not a bust, I didn't say he was. But he got rocked more than his fair share. Run support or not, he should've won at least two more games than he did, making him at least 17-11, which would be a typical Colon year. But don't say I'm picking on him, because I fault Buehrle just as much and for the record, he isn't fat. The difference is though, Colon was paid 20 times as much Buehrle...to produce roughly 1.01 times better than Buehrle.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 02:24 PM
Another thing,

What's "ridiculous" about this statement--

Colon was around or below .500 for the year and ended up barely above that mark.

That is 100% fact. If you wanna disagree with me, fine. But you inferred too much about the fat thing, and you inferred to much about the above statement which is not subjective at all. Now I'm saying Colon was a letdown. Rip into that all you want, it's an opinion. But if you're gonna call me stupid (believe me, I don't give a crap), let it be because of my opinions, not because of facts.

Brian26
11-06-2003, 03:06 PM
Bruce,

In your opening post, you said we need to stop getting fat guys on our team.

That's dumb.

Give me 25 fat guys anyday if they can play baseball.

Wells, Colon, and Ponson can all play baseball.

Let's move on.

SoxxoS
11-06-2003, 03:10 PM
Who would want a Tony Gywnn, anyway.

Brian26
11-06-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Now I'm saying Colon was a letdown. Rip into that all you want, it's an opinion.

Damn right it's an opinion. One in which I strongly disagree with. Bartolo was the man for us, especially down the stretch. Every pitcher is going to have 4 or 5 bad games in a season. Bartolo was consistent, reliable, and a horse down the stretch. He didn't get 20 wins, but I wouldn't call him a "letdown" by any means. I'd take his 2003 performance again in a heartbeat.

rmusacch
11-06-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
hold2dibber,

I disagree on signing Ponson. In my opinion we should go for someone cheaper and just bank on Buehrle and Loaiza being solid frontmen. And that's not being too presumptuous I think. Someone along the lines of Miguel Batista of Arizona or Kelvim Escobar unless there's a bidding war over him.

As for the fat part, I agree with you in the end. But I just think it's bad karma to sign another tubby pitcher. Although that isn't my deciding factor. lol

Yes, Loaiza had a great season for us last year but nothing in his past has shown that he could put back to back seasons together. I hope I am wrong.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 03:45 PM
rmusacch,

One one token you could say how can Loaiza do it again...but on another token you can just as easily say "why not"? Given the position we're in, we have to bank on him not necessarily winning 21 games, but 15-18 (or more, what hell we'll take it). That still means he'll have to be a whole lot better than his career norm, which sounds unrealistic...but at the same time, 15-18 wins is being LESS productive than his most recent year...and that's being conservative in your hopes.

Again, we must pray he's at least 85% the guy he was last year. If he is, we should be fine rotation-wise. The scare is we're losing two dominant pitchers by letting Colon go and Loaiza possibly regressing. But hey, know one knows yet. If we get a good Loaiza, normal Buehrle and an improved Garland, we won't miss a beat. More importantly, we need to address the bullpen. IF the Koch/Mets rumors are true, that will give us some clarity.

maurice
11-06-2003, 04:30 PM
It is not unreasonable to call Colon's 2003 performance a let down. 2003 Colon was worse than 2002 Colon. For a generic pitcher, his 2003 performance was very good. For Colon, if was just okay.

StockdaleForVeep
11-06-2003, 04:43 PM
hey whats wrong with the hefty guys, theyre lovable and fun to watch, unless your name is alfonseca

http://www.familyguyfiles.com/epics/fulls/FG-311_3.png

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 04:46 PM
That's a pretty glib interpretation. I said a lot more than that.

StockdaleForVeep
11-06-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
That's a pretty glib interpretation. I said a lot more than that.



Some of the best pitchers have been portly, What is your ideal size for a pitcher? Babe Ruth was a "tank" and look at how he did when he pitched.

steff
11-06-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I mean this guy's very name, Ponson, is an Italian slang word for "fat boy." Ey! Ponson, shuttupa you mouth-ah!

On what planet..?

[i]And I heard things (I heard things..) about Ponson's health in that his arm isn't gonna hold up and Tommy John is a possibility, or something along those lines.[/B]

Really.. I'll be sure to ask him about this the next time I talk to him. I'm sure he'll be interested to know that he's going to need surgery.

[i]I'm not in favor of signing Ponson, not only because he's fat, but traditionally he's not that good.[/B]

He's not fat. He's large and he's solid.


[i].. but traditionally he's not that good.[/B]

And Loaiza sucked in previous years, too. Boy.. those White Sox sure are stupid for giving him a shot, aren't they..?

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 05:11 PM
Yeah, nice logic Steffy. Really valid comparison between bargain-basement castoff Loaiza and overpriced, opportunistic Ponson.

Anything else?

steff
11-06-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Yeah, nice logic Steffy. Really valid comparison between bargain-basement castoff Loaiza and overpriced, opportunistic Ponson.

Anything else?

Other than you need glasses..?

Where did I do a comparision..?

Pitching is not EVER 100%. An Ace today could have a dead arm tomorrow.

And you don't know **** about how much Sidney is going to command.

But hey.. opinions, like *******s, are always welcome.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 05:21 PM
I believe right here...

Originally posted by steff
And Loaiza sucked in previous years, too. Boy.. those White Sox sure are stupid for giving him a shot, aren't they..?


Tell me that isn't a comparison. "AND...TOO." It's pretty obvious.

Pitching is not ever 100%...gee, I would've never known. You take chances, but on bargains you have a good feeling about (Loaiza)...not on overrated free agent pitchers (Ponson).

Brian26
11-06-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
You take chances, but on bargains you have a good feeling about (Loaiza)...not on overrated free agent pitchers (Ponson).


I'd describe Ponson as full of untapped potential before I'd describe him as overrated.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 05:34 PM
Brian, he's been around for a while. What's he like 27, 28? A scout would say by that age a pitcher has passed his window for getting better. And it was his contract year after all. It seems kinda strange that he finally has a good year when the chance for big money appears on the horizon. There are (very) late bloomers like Loaiza, but very few. And I did hear his health is suspect. I don't remember where, but I heard it here.

steff
11-06-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I believe right here...



Tell me that isn't a comparison. "AND...TOO." It's pretty obvious.

Pitching is not ever 100%...gee, I would've never known. You take chances, but on bargains you have a good feeling about (Loaiza)...not on overrated free agent pitchers (Ponson).


Hardly, because Sidney hasn't sucked. Don't ASSume. Ask if you don't comprehend.

And pass over some of whatever it is that you're smoking.. if you had paid any attention in ST and at Sox Fest Loiaza was never sloted to win more than 15 games. There was NO expectation, and no good feeling. It was a crap shoot.

steff
11-06-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
And I did hear his health is suspect. I don't remember where, but I heard it here.


How convenient...

The only place you heard this is from the voices in your head. Sidney is more healthy now than ever.. and even better that he got away from Scott Erickson. It's no coincidence that he had a great year away from his influence. Sidney dropped 18 pounds, eats super healthy and works out 4 times a week - a miracle for a pitcher.

batmanZoSo
11-06-2003, 08:18 PM
KW did expect good things out of Loaiza. Why do you think he signed him? I'm not talking about your friends talking at Sox fest, I'm talking about the guys in charge who make moves. And I'm pretty sure Sox fest was long before we signed Loaiza anyway.

I don't make s--- it up, either. I did hear Ponson's health was suspect, but that's not the most integral part of my argument anyway. I don't think he's that good.

steff
11-06-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
KW did expect good things out of Loaiza. Why do you think he signed him? I'm not talking about your friends talking at Sox fest, I'm talking about the guys in charge who make moves. And I'm pretty sure Sox fest was long before we signed Loaiza anyway.

I don't make s--- it up, either. I did hear Ponson's health was suspect, but that's not the most integral part of my argument anyway. I don't think he's that good.


He took a chance.


And I'm sorry, but there has NEVER been a reason to suspect Sidney's health, so I do think.. no, I'm pretty confident, that you are embellishing.

StillMissOzzie
11-07-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Which probably explains why my car hasn't been delivered either...

LMAO!!!

SMO
:gulp:

StillMissOzzie
11-07-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Who would want a Tony Gywnn, anyway.

...or a Kirby Puckett...


SMO
:gulp: