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View Full Version : Is Guillen Managing Worth Frank Bolting?


crector
11-05-2003, 05:18 AM
From the Nov. 5th, 2003 issue of the Daily Southtown:

"Not everyone was happy with the news of Ozzie Guillen's hiring as the new White Sox manager.

As teammates in the early 1990s, Frank Thomas and Guillen had their problems on and off the field. Even as late as last week, Thomas told several teammates that he "would not play for Guillen" if the latter was the choice for manager."

Link: http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/041sd2.htm


In other words, the hiring of the talentless egomaniac who got his jollies out of harassing his teammates as manager, may very well result in one of the absolutely most talented players in all Chicago White Sox history formally asking to be traded to another team.

So the question is if Frank does bolt, will Ozzie managing be worth that price? Will Ozzie's alleged fire be worth the loss of 42 HR's, 105 RBI's, 100 Walks. 562 Slugging , .390 OBP and tremendous plate discipline?

cornball
11-05-2003, 06:52 AM
Seems to me, no matter who was named manager there was going to be the question if he would get along with Frank. It happened when Manuel was hired, and it happened this time too.

soxfan26
11-05-2003, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by crector

In other words, the hiring of the talentless egomaniac who got his jollies out of harassing his teammates as manager, may very well result in one of the absolutely most talented players in all Chicago White Sox history formally asking to be traded to another team.

So the question is if Frank does bolt, will Ozzie managing be worth that price? Will Ozzie's alleged fire be worth the loss of 42 HR's, 105 RBI's, 100 Walks. 562 Slugging , .390 OBP and tremendous plate discipline?

Did we read the same article? A small paragraph about what Frank may or may not have said has got you this fired up?

Frank is not going anywhere.

Your rant about Ozzie belongs in one of the many other doomsday threads about the book of revelations saying this signals the end for the organization.

doogiec
11-05-2003, 06:59 AM
Yes, I believe the players should decide who they want as manager, not the management.

Give me a break!

StepsInSC
11-05-2003, 08:07 AM
Frank's just talk.

thepaulbowski
11-05-2003, 08:12 AM
You think Frank is going to leave $ 8 million on the table next year? Please, give me a break.

steff
11-05-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Frank's just talk.


Personally.. I'd say this was taken out of context.

crector
11-05-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
You think Frank is going to leave $ 8 million on the table next year? Please, give me a break.

If Frank is traded to another team, then that new team assumes Frank's contract including that $8 mil.

gosox41
11-05-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by crector
From the Nov. 5th, 2003 issue of the Daily Southtown:

"Not everyone was happy with the news of Ozzie Guillen's hiring as the new White Sox manager.

As teammates in the early 1990s, Frank Thomas and Guillen had their problems on and off the field. Even as late as last week, Thomas told several teammates that he "would not play for Guillen" if the latter was the choice for manager."

Link: http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/041sd2.htm


In other words, the hiring of the talentless egomaniac who got his jollies out of harassing his teammates as manager, may very well result in one of the absolutely most talented players in all Chicago White Sox history formally asking to be traded to another team.

So the question is if Frank does bolt, will Ozzie managing be worth that price? Will Ozzie's alleged fire be worth the loss of 42 HR's, 105 RBI's, 100 Walks. 562 Slugging , .390 OBP and tremendous plate discipline?

Maybe the Sox can trade Frank for Todd Ritchie. They seem to overvalue Ritchie and think so little of Frank.

Bob

ondafarm
11-05-2003, 08:30 AM
Frank Thomas will remain a White Sox. I think he's firing an opening salvo at the guy who used to torment him. Frank is a professional and deserves to be treated as such. I think Ozzie is smart enough to realize that. Will he force Frank to work more within the team? Absolutely. But Ozzie also realizes Frank is the most valuable bat on the team.

crector
11-05-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Frank Thomas will remain a White Sox. I think he's firing an opening salvo at the guy who used to torment him. Frank is a professional and deserves to be treated as such. I think Ozzie is smart enough to realize that. Will he force Frank to work more within the team? Absolutely. But Ozzie also realizes Frank is the most valuable bat on the team.


If Ozzie is so smart, then why did he dump all over Frank at that press conference? That's the kind of thing that Konerko would have done if he were the new manager.

Kilroy
11-05-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by crector
If Ozzie is so smart, then why did he dump all over Frank at that press conference?

I agree completely. I think it was uncalled for. Instead of finding a new way to exist in this new situation, Ozzie started out by bringing up crap from 6-7 years ago. Brilliant. While I like what he's gonna bring, I definitely didn't like that. Like it or not Ozzie, Frank is the cornerstone of this team.

Since Ozzie's going to go to the organizational meetings in Vegas, and Frank lives in Vegas, hopefully, they will get together and figure out how they are going to do this.

doublem23
11-05-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by steff
Personally.. I'd say this was taken out of context.

Probably... Everytime it seems Frank sticks his foot in his mouth, it's usually because he's been taken out of context... I think I remember later in the year, Frank said something that sounded incredibly whiny. Something like, "the screen is a bad color," to explain why he was in a funk that made him sound like a bitchy 5-year old, when in turn the whole quote was something like, "We can't blame our problems on something dumb like the 'the screen is a bad color.'" I would suspect that this is the case again. And if not, he already exercised his option, so ha ha Frank, you're ours for at least one more year! :smile:

thepaulbowski
11-05-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by crector
If Frank is traded to another team, then that new team assumes Frank's contract including that $8 mil.

If we could get pitching for Frank, do it. But he does have to approve any trade because he's a 5/10 guy. I'm not bashing Frank, I'd love for Frank to finish his career on the Southside. Not many teams will want to pay him, and I don't think he'd want to go to a NY or Boston. At least here he can sort of hide behind the Cub Love.

soxtalker
11-05-2003, 09:21 AM
I "read" Ozzie's comments as simply being a statement that he is the one in charge; the star players (Maggs also included) don't get special treatment. Add to it that the comments were made in answer to a question and probably were not anything close to prepared. That probably means that they weren't calculated to offend Frank. It also probably means that this will happen again.

Having said that, there were some reports that KW wouldn't have been terribly upset if Frank had exercised his option to bolt as a FA. If Frank now is so insulted that he wants to leave, that would provide KW with an opportunity to use Frank in a trade. And I think that Frank could be very attractive to another team in a trade. I am NOT trying to say that this was planned in advance -- just that the Sox might be more willing to accommodate him than placate him.

fquaye149
11-05-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
But Ozzie also realizes Frank is the most valuable bat on the team.

When did Maggs get traded?

BeerHandle
11-05-2003, 10:02 AM
Thomas isn't going anywhere. I'm sure Thomas and his agent asked who would be manager. Even if they didn't find out, I'm sure they were told it would be Gaston or Guillen.

Yeah Thomas and Guillen had an up and down relationship, but when they played together THomas was having fun and winning MVP crowns.

Thomas of old will be back next year becaue he will be playing first base!

Wanne
11-05-2003, 10:29 AM
This whole thing is ridiculous!!!...I seriously doubt Frank EVER said he wouldn't play for Guillen and it's just another case of typical media sensationalizing a situation at Franks expense. I'm not saying Frank isn't a moody baby at times...but he sure is an easy target to stir up the shiat! I kind of took Ozzie's comments at the press conference as Ozzie just trying to establish his presence much like a dog peeing on every bush he passes. Frank's not going anywhere!!!!! My only hope is...Ozzie doesn't continuously try to push Frank's buttons....I'd hope he was smarter than that.

ondafarm
11-05-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
When did Maggs get traded?

Unless that's a FES joke, here's a link to the proof.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alb03.htm

Frank produces more runs than Mags or CLee.

crector
11-05-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Wanne
This whole thing is ridiculous!!!...I seriously doubt Frank EVER said he wouldn't play for Guillen and it's just another case of typical media sensationalizing a situation at Franks expense. I'm not saying Frank isn't a moody baby at times...but he sure is an easy target to stir up the shiat! I kind of took Ozzie's comments at the press conference as Ozzie just trying to establish his presence much like a dog peeing on every bush he passes. Frank's not going anywhere!!!!! My only hope is...Ozzie doesn't continuously try to push Frank's buttons....I'd hope he was smarter than that.


Well, his first act as manager was to dump on Frank, so your "only hope" has already been dashed.

john2499
11-05-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Unless that's a FES joke, here's a link to the proof.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alb03.htm

Frank produces more runs than Mags or CLee.

I must be blind, but where exactly is the formula.
I would like to know exactly how they come to the conclusion that, Brett Boone, Vernon Wells, Garciaparra, Garret Anderson, Rafael Palmeiro, rank below Bill Mueller.

By using this formula, a team would be better off having Corey Koskie over Garciaparra or Eric Chavez. It may sound good in the Lab, but it don't look like it works out in the field.

It also does not consider hitting with 2 outs, hitting from the 7th inning on, or hitting W/RISP.

jeremyb1
11-05-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I "read" Ozzie's comments as simply being a statement that he is the one in charge; the star players (Maggs also included) don't get special treatment. Add to it that the comments were made in answer to a question and probably were not anything close to prepared. That probably means that they weren't calculated to offend Frank.

Great point. Ozzie made nearly all the same comments about Maggs that he made about Frank. He stated that neither player was a head of the team, that both players would be expected to get the runner over, etc. The only point at which his response was limited to Frank was when he was asked specifically about Frank. That considered, why doesn't this thread ponder whether hiring Ozzie is worth losing Maggs? Perhaps because people don't expect an attitude from Maggs?

crector
11-05-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Great point. Ozzie made nearly all the same comments about Maggs that he made about Frank. He stated that neither player was a head of the team, that both players would be expected to get the runner over, etc. The only point at which his response was limited to Frank was when he was asked specifically about Frank. That considered, why doesn't this thread ponder whether hiring Ozzie is worth losing Maggs? Perhaps because people don't expect an attitude from Maggs?

Maggs doesn't take walks, which makes him a less valuable hitter than Frank. And he is less popular with the fans than Frank too. The White Sox can make do without Maggs, but if it lost Frank then that would be a big hole to fill.

Shoeless Joe
11-05-2003, 06:57 PM
Frank and Ozzie are old buddies. That's the reason he talked about Frank so much. They know each other already and Ozzie probably did this to him while they were playing. Everyone is falling into the media's ploy of Ozzie vs. Frank. Don't fall for it!

fquaye149
11-05-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by crector
Maggs doesn't take walks, which makes him a less valuable hitter than Frank. And he is less popular with the fans than Frank too. The White Sox can make do without Maggs, but if it lost Frank then that would be a big hole to fill.

maggs doesn't take walks?

we're not talking about free swinging soriano/jacques jones here:

60 walks in 03 and a 70 point differential b/t BA and OBP leads me believe he does get on base. Plus maggs can hit for average, unlike Frank, can hit to all fields, didn't strike out 100 times...need i go on?


If anything they're equal...but I'd still rather have Maggs any day...considering he's six years younger and not on the decline

guillen4life13
11-05-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe
Frank and Ozzie are old buddies. That's the reason he talked about Frank so much. They know each other already and Ozzie probably did this to him while they were playing. Everyone is falling into the media's ploy of Ozzie vs. Frank. Don't fall for it!

I'm under the impression that the two of them have had many conflicts with each other, and weren't exactly the greatest of friends.

Viva Magglio
11-05-2003, 07:59 PM
If Frank said that, he is a big baby.

nasox
11-05-2003, 08:00 PM
After what Ozzie said at the press conference and pointing Frank out specifically, considering Frank's past "history" (much of it was blown out of proportion) I'm not surprised at the reports of him being irate. True or False, the media has slammed Frank and this may be an example. Nevertheless, how do you think Frank and to an extent the rest of this White Sox club will get along and gel with Ozzie as their new manager.

If anyone cares, I'll put up my two cents too.

ondafarm
11-06-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by john2499
I must be blind, but where exactly is the formula.
I would like to know exactly how they come to the conclusion that, Brett Boone, Vernon Wells, Garciaparra, Garret Anderson, Rafael Palmeiro, rank below Bill Mueller.

By using this formula, a team would be better off having Corey Koskie over Garciaparra or Eric Chavez. It may sound good in the Lab, but it don't look like it works out in the field.

It also does not consider hitting with 2 outs, hitting from the 7th inning on, or hitting W/RISP.

Sagarin does not publish his formula although he has at times hinted. He does consider all three of those factors and actually, they all argue against your point. Mueller and Koskie are both devastating late inning, key rbi guys.

Keep in mind, FT had higher OBP and SLG than Mags in 2 out, RISP and late & close situations. Thats probably what allowed Frank to exceed Mags in the ranking.

Mags batted behind the highest OBP guy on the Sox, Frank, and yet Frank had more rbis in considerably fewer ABs. Numbers like that do work in the field.

TDog
11-06-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
If Frank said that, he is a big baby.

Watch it. Sports journalists out there could quote you as calling Frank a big baby.

If you want to illustrate the current situation between Frank and Ozzie, you would get a comment in the context of Frank Thomas deciding not to become a free agent while Ozzie Guillen is a candidate to become the team's manager.

Granted, that would require more work.

Frank the Tank
11-06-2003, 01:21 AM
Don't worry, Frank isn't going anywhere. He is just like every other baseball player, all he cares about is money. He already tested the free agent market before, I don't think he wants to get his feelings hurt again in 2 years. I'd be fine if KW traded him. Let Frank take his first pitch strike somewhere else. Boy is Ozzie Guillen a jerk, can you believe he expects Frank to play hard and quit crying?

john2499
11-06-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Sagarin does not publish his formula although he has at times hinted. He does consider all three of those factors and actually, they all argue against your point. Mueller and Koskie are both devastating late inning, key rbi guys.

Keep in mind, FT had higher OBP and SLG than Mags in 2 out, RISP and late & close situations. Thats probably what allowed Frank to exceed Mags in the ranking.

Mags batted behind the highest OBP guy on the Sox, Frank, and yet Frank had more rbis in considerably fewer ABs. Numbers like that do work in the field.

I am ging to ask what you mean by "devastating" ?

Koskie hit .201 from the 7th on
He hit .271 w/RISP, and worse with 2 out and RISP he hit .244.
Late inning pressure w/runners on he hit a whopping .200
What is devastating about that ? Nothing, he sucks!!!

Carlos Lee, who is ranked below Koskie, hit .283 from the 7th on.
Hit .346 w/.654 SLG. w/RISP, and w/ 2 out and RISP hit .338 w/ .704 SLG.
LIP w/ runners on Carlos hit .250, not good, but .50 higher than a guy who ranked 10 places higher on this guy's list.

As far as Frank goes, I don't remember him being a big clutch hitter. He is an early in the game hitter, not a clutch one.

And Frank may have less AB than Mags, but they both have the same PA. You don't drive in many runs walking to first.
But Frank is still a bargain at 6 mil. and I'm glad he is back.
I just don't agree with Sagarin's formula.

ondafarm
11-06-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by john2499
I am ging to ask what you mean by "devastating" ?

Koskie hit .201 from the 7th on
He hit .271 w/RISP, and worse with 2 out and RISP he hit .244.
Late inning pressure w/runners on he hit a whopping .200
What is devastating about that ? Nothing, he sucks!!!

Carlos Lee, who is ranked below Koskie, hit .283 from the 7th on.
Hit .346 w/.654 SLG. w/RISP, and w/ 2 out and RISP hit .338 w/ .704 SLG.
LIP w/ runners on Carlos hit .250, not good, but .50 higher than a guy who ranked 10 places higher on this guy's list.

As far as Frank goes, I don't remember him being a big clutch hitter. He is an early in the game hitter, not a clutch one.

And Frank may have less AB than Mags, but they both have the same PA. You don't drive in many runs walking to first.
But Frank is still a bargain at 6 mil. and I'm glad he is back.
I just don't agree with Sagarin's formula.

Given that are conclusions are the same, Frankis a bargain at 6 mill, I think we are splitting hairs. However, Sagarin does look more at OBP than BA and Carlos really suffers because of that. In all three situations, RISP 2 out, close & late, and runners on, both Koskie and Mueller are better in all three.

Carlos .390 RISP2O, .239 C&L, .339RO
Koskie .415 .325 .420
Mueller .412 .326 .438

And just to compare,
Mags .364 .483 .382
Frank .423 .415 .464

A few conclusions. Frank and Mags are both great guys to have on your team. Carlos has his value as well. Koskie and Mueller are both able to shorten their swing and play small ball well. If a single drives in a run, those are both guys who do it better than Carlos.

As for walking, I definately disagree. Sure you don't get many RBIs walking but making the pitcher pitch eight or so more pitches, keeping an inning alive and enhancing the scoring opportunity in a runners on situation are all very important. Since the best on base guys get on just over 40% of the time, and you can't score runs without getting on, I think walking in a critical situation is very important.

jeremyb1
11-06-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by crector
Maggs doesn't take walks, which makes him a less valuable hitter than Frank. And he is less popular with the fans than Frank too. The White Sox can make do without Maggs, but if it lost Frank then that would be a big hole to fill.

You complete missed my point which was related to Ozzie's comments about the two players at the press conference and their perceived reaction. As far as Frank and Maggs, virtually every effective statistical measurement of production indicates their production was nearly identical last season.

Iwritecode
11-06-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
If we could get pitching for Frank, do it. But he does have to approve any trade because he's a 5/10 guy.

I may be mis-remembering but didn't he give up his 5/10 rights when he signed his current contract? I thought I read that somewhere once.

Anyone know for sure???

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I may be mis-remembering but didn't he give up his 5/10 rights when he signed his current contract? I thought I read that somewhere once.

Anyone know for sure???

I am pretty sure the players are NOT allowed to bargain that right away. That is written into the CBA because otherwise every long term contract would probably have a clause removing that right.

Dadawg_77
11-06-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I am pretty sure the players are NOT allowed to bargain that right away. That is written into the CBA because otherwise every long term contract would probably have a clause removing that right.

Frank may or may not have written that into the contract. But it doesn't mean anything, there is no way that clause holds up to any legal challenge.

soxtalker
11-06-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Frank may or may not have written that into the contract. But it doesn't mean anything, there is no way that clause holds up to any legal challenge.

I'm not so sure about that. But it probably won't come down to a court challenge -- as long as a deal is cut that Frank approves.

Iwritecode
11-06-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'm not so sure about that. But it probably won't come down to a court challenge -- as long as a deal is cut that Frank approves.

I checked back through the old posts and it looks like we discussed this same subject when he signed the contract.

Someone posted that they heard Grobber mention it at one point. Of course all the linked articles are gone now so it's hard to tell for sure.

It looks like Frank has something written into his contract where he can only be traded to certain teams listed in his contract. I don't know if that means he specifically gave up his 5/10 rights just for those teams or what...

john2499
11-06-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Given that are conclusions are the same, Frankis a bargain at 6 mill, I think we are splitting hairs.



You are probably right, but what else is there to do until, "Pitchers and Catchers report".