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fquaye149
11-04-2003, 09:41 PM
Please, KW, please

6 Mill for a dude with these monstrous statistics:

<zzz> .240 28 74 </zzz>


come on now. I can't believe we're even considering resigning him. I wouldn't really want him on the team if they paid us.

Yeah he's a leader, but explain to me where his leadership has taken us.


I really do believe he is an above average shortstop, don't get me wrong....but even royce the choice might put up those type of numbers for a fraction of the price. Plus we could make wisecracks.

The_Floridian
11-04-2003, 09:55 PM
I'm into keeping Valentin for two reasons.

1) His leadership.
2) He hit 265 with 26 homers as a lefty last year.

Re-sign him for less money (he has said he will do this provided they get most of the team back) and platoon him with Graffanino. He will continue to be productive as a lefty, and his leadership will be important with a rookie manager at the helm. He's a cool head, and he'll be needed.

soxfan26
11-04-2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
Please, KW, please

6 Mill for a dude with these monstrous statistics:

<zzz> .240 28 74 </zzz>


I really do believe he is an above average shortstop, don't get me wrong....but even royce the choice might put up those type of numbers for a fraction of the price. Plus we could make wisecracks.

Where can we find a better SS for less than $5m? His option for 2004 was $5m, if he has said he is open to returning for less money, where do you come up with $6m?

I'd like to hear your plan for filling the hole at SS if you let him go.

Royce the choice? Now there is a straight up bargain for $1.5m, hey, the Brewers declined to pick up his option... Call KW!

MRKARNO
11-04-2003, 10:07 PM
Why dont we get iguchi???

StepsInSC
11-04-2003, 10:15 PM
Iguchi! He'll probably be a bust but at least it means more media coverage for the Sox.

Tragg
11-04-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
Please, KW, please

6 Mill for a dude with these monstrous statistics:

<zzz> .240 28 74 </zzz>


come on now. I can't believe we're even considering resigning him. I wouldn't really want him on the team if they paid us.

Yeah he's a leader, but explain to me where his leadership has taken us.


I really do believe he is an above average shortstop, don't get me wrong....but even royce the choice might put up those type of numbers for a fraction of the price. Plus we could make wisecracks.

I agree

SoxxoS
11-04-2003, 11:23 PM
I don't want Manos back either...but...What are the other options?

Riddle me this, riddle me that...

fquaye149
11-05-2003, 12:05 AM
the other options? Let's explore them before saying "we can't get another shortstop for less than 5 mill."

like i said,(and i'm not necessarily advocating it)...we could get royce for less than 2 million certainly....and what exactly would we be losing.

PLEASE don't say leadership...because that' a very sketchy leg to stand on...considering the white sox have not acted much like a team being led anywhere...but rather a bunch of guys doing their own thing...

Let's focus on stats and save the semantics...we would give up about 10 home runs with Royce....

and we can certainly find a better ss than royce for <5million...so don't give me this, "who can we find who is better."


and yes, i understand jose hit well left-handed, but he seems to give no indication that he will stop switch-hitting. what makes YOU think he will?

fquaye149
11-05-2003, 12:09 AM
If we can sign Jose for about 2 million...i say take it , I guess....


But to me, despite his "stellar leadership."....he was what was wrong with the Sox this year -

An outmaking machine who hit a handful of homeruns...


Look, if you really see the White Sox being a championship caliber team with Manos at short eating up five million dollars of payroll...you and I are of differing opinion





...and that mustache!

SoxxoS
11-05-2003, 12:22 AM
At this time, I would just like to thank Sox Brass for stocking the farm system with all this SS talent.

I am glad we have so many options at that very unimportant infield spot.

Jason Dellaero and Mike Caruso, where are you now?

LASOXFAN
11-05-2003, 01:16 AM
You seem to have forgotten that the Sox are homer happy. Wait, that's an understatement. More like crack whores drawn to the pipe. Forget the numbers on the left and right, it's the number in the middle that will bring Manos back to the south side. :(:

and don't forget that he plucks his eyebrows

crector
11-05-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
You seem to have forgotten that the Sox are homer happy. Wait, that's an understatement. More like crack whores drawn to the pipe. Forget the numbers on the left and right, it's the number in the middle that will bring Manos back to the south side. :(:

and don't forget that he plucks his eyebrows


Well, if JR/KW are really serious about bringing small ball to a long ball hitter's ballpark, then they will dump Valentin in favor of someone who loves to bunt and is really good at it.

cornball
11-05-2003, 06:02 AM
I am in favor of going in another direction as well. After reading the comments from his agent in todays Tribune, even more so.

This is the position we need an upgrade the most.

soxfan26
11-05-2003, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
the other options? Let's explore them before saying "we can't get another shortstop for less than 5 mill."

So explore the options. You posted the thread, you want Manos gone, I'm challenging you to solve the problem you identified.

I'm not a great big Manos fan either, but we have 2 spots to fill in the rotation, not to mention questions marks in CF, 2B, and the bullpen.

Manos is serviceable, he has agreed to take less money. So it is safe to say that we are talking about less than $5m (his 2004 option).

Give me a list of FAs, or trade possibilities, that will not cause a big jump in payroll, and are better than Manos.

But if we don't have to be realistic, then let's go get Tejada

soxfan26
11-05-2003, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by cornball
I am in favor of going in another direction as well. After reading the comments from his agent in todays Tribune, even more so.

This is the position we need an upgrade the most.

What comments?

Can you provide a link?

gosox41
11-05-2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by The_Floridian
I'm into keeping Valentin for two reasons.

1) His leadership.
2) He hit 265 with 26 homers as a lefty last year.

Re-sign him for less money (he has said he will do this provided they get most of the team back) and platoon him with Graffanino. He will continue to be productive as a lefty, and his leadership will be important with a rookie manager at the helm. He's a cool head, and he'll be needed.

Today's Trib. gane the impression that he wants to test the FA market if the Sox don't pick up his option. 4-5 teams may be interested in him.

Bob

crector
11-05-2003, 07:17 AM
The Trib also reported that if Valentin leaves the Sox, then Royce Clayton would be a possible replacement for Valentin.

gosox41
11-05-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I don't want Manos back either...but...What are the other options?

Riddle me this, riddle me that...

Picking up Jose's option would be a mistake. In the current economic climate, he's not a $5 mill per year ball player. I'd be surprised if he got a deal elsewhere that averaged that much per season.

Ideally I'd like the Sox to trade for a good young SS. I don't know who, but there's got to be someone out there. This player doesn't need to be a superstar, just a solid fielder who can maintain a ML average .335 OBP with some speed.

Since that's going to be hard to do, there is another name to throw in the ring. Keep in mind that I don't know what his current contract situation is, nor do I really like him all that much. But it is something I could see the Sox doing. If the Cubs do go after Tejada (or that A-Rod rumor) that just won't die, I can see the Sox pursuing A-Gon in a trade if they can pay him $2-3 mill per year and the Cubs pick up the rest.

Now like I said, I don't like the move, but it may be better then having Jose at $5 mill. here because it allows the Sox to put the rest of that money into a pitcher or keeping Ordonez and Lee or whatever.

Bob

cornball
11-05-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by soxfan26
So explore the options. You posted the thread, you want Manos gone, I'm challenging you to solve the problem you identified.

I'm not a great big Manos fan either, but we have 2 spots to fill in the rotation, not to mention questions marks in CF, 2B, and the bullpen.

Manos is serviceable, he has agreed to take less money. So it is safe to say that we are talking about less than $5m (his 2004 option).

Give me a list of FAs, or trade possibilities, that will not cause a big jump in payroll, and are better than Manos.

But if we don't have to be realistic, then let's go get Tejada

The thing is.. the season just ended. FA havent all declared at this time. Valentin wants to sign a deal right away...if the Sox are smart they wait and let things settle a little. During this time, as free agents sign new players will become available and Valentin will find what his "market value" is like 2-3 tops.

I think if there is someone available who is an upgrade before than ..get him. If we are going to spend 4-5 a year on Valentin why not a little more to get an impact player.

Valentin using the arguement that he signed with us for less than market value 3 years ago, when in fact it was only Baltimore who the Sox were bidding against is a ridiculous arguement. One team willingness to overspend on a players sevices is not market value. One team does not make a market.

soxtalker
11-05-2003, 07:50 AM
I was a bit alarmed when I read that Tribune article

Sox shopping for bargains (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-031104sox,1,3395502.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)

that the number of alternative choices for SS seemed so low. I'm not crazy about bringing Valentin back -- particularly at the $5M -- since it looks to me like his batting is very much in decline. However, I was happy with the apparent improvement in defense after Alomar was playing alongside him. The article seems to indicate (though this is an agent trying to boost the price) that there would be several other teams willing to shell out the $5M or more. I guess that my question is whether there are any other possibilities in the high minor leagues in some other team's organzation that might be an appropriate replacement.

hold2dibber
11-05-2003, 08:00 AM
In light of the dearth of other SS options out there, I am in favor of bringing Jose back - but ONLY if they can sign him for less than $5 million. If he thinks his value on the open market right now is $5 million, he's absolutely out of his head. Edgar Martinez signed a one year deal for $3 million yesterday. David Ortiz signed a deal for less than $3 million/year last off season. Jose Valentin, in this economic climate, is about a $2 million/year player. Exercising his $5 million option would be throwing money away. If he walks, so be it. Go sign Aurilia if Jose walks - I'm not a big fan of his, but I promise he'll cost less than $5 million and the extra money could be used to sign Gordon or Ponson.

And I completely agree that it would be nuts to exercise this early in the off season - wait to see how the market plays itself out. There may be some bargains out there as the off season progresses.

fquaye149
11-05-2003, 08:48 AM
let's pretend we could get rey-rey for the same price as jose...which is likely. who would you want? Or rich aurilia?





jose's numbers are nauseating...and watching him play the game does nothing to trivialize the statistics...


and please...explain to me how we have benefited from his leadership? I am just curious








and i can't stand looking at the stache anymore

poorme
11-05-2003, 09:09 AM
He's the best FA SS out there. I'd pick up the option. Of course then you really need Tony G. back to be a platoon partner.

hold2dibber
11-05-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by poorme
He's the best FA SS out there. I'd pick up the option. Of course then you really need Tony G. back to be a platoon partner.

If you pick up the option for $5 million and re-sign Graffy (who will cost at least $750,000, probably more), you're committing nearly $6 million to SS. Now you're at $56 million for 9 players and you haven't signed a single free agent yet. I like Jose, but if he wants to stay, he's got to agree to take less than $5 million or to defer some of that money. He's not going to make that much on the open market, no way no how.

soxtalker
11-05-2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If you pick up the option for $5 million and re-sign Graffy (who will cost at least $750,000, probably more), you're committing nearly $6 million to SS. Now you're at $56 million for 9 players and you haven't signed a single free agent yet. I like Jose, but if he wants to stay, he's got to agree to take less than $5 million or to defer some of that money. He's not going to make that much on the open market, no way no how.

And I'm not sure that the deferral is that great a deal. With interest rates being pretty low right now, isn't the present value of any deferred amount pretty high? So, you're just adding to the payroll down the road.

poorme
11-05-2003, 09:49 AM
Valentin and Aurelia are the only viable SS options out there (besides Tejada). I could easily see some team giving him a few years at $3-4 million per. If the Sox pick up the option, it will cost $4.5 million. Unless they make a trade, that seems to be the wise decision...of course Jose Hernandez and Rey Ordonez are available!

ondafarm
11-05-2003, 10:12 AM
I've seen Iguchi play. He is interested in coming to the USA, will probably go for less than $5 million (a lot less) and will not be a bust. It will take him awhile to adjust to American pitching but I'd rate him a better hitter than Matsui (with the Yanks.) Won't have much power here but probably will hit .300. That works for my team and is great for small ball. He can certainly bunt both for a hit and sacrifice. Solid defensive player.

poorme
11-05-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
I've seen Iguchi play. He is interested in coming to the USA, will probably go for less than $5 million (a lot less) and will not be a bust. It will take him awhile to adjust to American pitching but I'd rate him a better hitter than Matsui (with the Yanks.) Won't have much power here but probably will hit .300. That works for my team and is great for small ball. He can certainly bunt both for a hit and sacrifice. Solid defensive player.

I think someone ought to tell KW about him, because I'm sure he's never heard of Iguchi.

RichH55
11-05-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by crector
The Trib also reported that if Valentin leaves the Sox, then Royce Clayton would be a possible replacement for Valentin.

Don't even joke about that.....

RichH55
11-05-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
let's pretend we could get rey-rey for the same price as jose...which is likely. who would you want? Or rich aurilia?





jose's numbers are nauseating...and watching him play the game does nothing to trivialize the statistics...


and please...explain to me how we have benefited from his leadership? I am just curious








and i can't stand looking at the stache anymore


I would want Jose


No you not benefit from someone being a leader, unless you win the Series? Is that the only option? Or are you just talking out of your ass becuase you don't like a player?

Steve Bartman
11-05-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by crector
The Trib also reported that if Valentin leaves the Sox, then Royce Clayton would be a possible replacement for Valentin.

I hope you are joking! If this is true, I will not be a sox fan ever again. I am sick of our ownership giving us dedicated sox fans the shaft every damn season.

soxtalker
11-05-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by crector
The Trib also reported that if Valentin leaves the Sox, then Royce Clayton would be a possible replacement for Valentin.

I don't think that is exactly what they said. They were listing the FA SS's, and Clayton certainly falls into that category.

RichH55
11-05-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I don't think that is exactly what they said. They were listing the FA SS's, and Clayton certainly falls into that category.

Agreed.....and they even mentioned him in a negative sense when they said it

MisterB
11-05-2003, 12:27 PM
Shortstop has become the latest gaping hole in the Sox organization. We literally don't have a single SS on either the ML or AAA rosters, and we don't have a legitimate SS prospect above low-A ball.

The FA possibilities are thin: Tejada will cost too much, and we already have 4 right-handed hitting middle-of the-order types who are bad on the basepaths and we don't need a 5th. Aurilia's good years are already behind him, and he's adequate at best on defense. Past those two are the retreads: Rey Ordonez, Rey Sanchez, Jose Vizcaino, Jose Hernandez and (gulp!) Royce Clayton. There are also some not-really-SS utility guys like Graffy, Tony Womack, Mark McLemore and Shane Halter.


As for trading for one, the best that might possibly be available is Orlando Cabrera - he's just hit arbitration and the Expos might not want to drop the cash. The question is who could we deal that the Expos will take? They'd be looking for a decent young player or two or a pack of minor leaguers (preferably close to ML ready ones). With Vlad gone, I'm pretty sure they'd go for Borchard, but with Maggs possibly gone after '04, we could use him ourselves. I'm not sure what the Expos' feelings on Rauch are, or any of our other prospects in the high minors. I don't think they're desperate enough to move him that they'd go for just low-minors prospects.

Other than Cabrera, there isn't anyone notable that might be available or worthwhile to trade for. Except for Nomar!

ondafarm
11-05-2003, 01:14 PM
There are two solid shortstops in Japan Matsui from Seibu and Iguchi from Daiei who are both available and talented enough to play in the ML. Both have expressed interest in coming to the US as well. I've seen both play and they are solid performers.

hold2dibber
11-05-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Shortstop has become the latest gaping hole in the Sox organization. We literally don't have a single SS on either the ML or AAA rosters, and we don't have a legitimate SS prospect above low-A ball.

The FA possibilities are thin: Tejada will cost too much, and we already have 4 right-handed hitting middle-of the-order types who are bad on the basepaths and we don't need a 5th. Aurilia's good years are already behind him, and he's adequate at best on defense. Past those two are the retreads: Rey Ordonez, Rey Sanchez, Jose Vizcaino, Jose Hernandez and (gulp!) Royce Clayton. There are also some not-really-SS utility guys like Graffy, Tony Womack, Mark McLemore and Shane Halter.


As for trading for one, the best that might possibly be available is Orlando Cabrera - he's just hit arbitration and the Expos might not want to drop the cash. The question is who could we deal that the Expos will take? They'd be looking for a decent young player or two or a pack of minor leaguers (preferably close to ML ready ones). With Vlad gone, I'm pretty sure they'd go for Borchard, but with Maggs possibly gone after '04, we could use him ourselves. I'm not sure what the Expos' feelings on Rauch are, or any of our other prospects in the high minors. I don't think they're desperate enough to move him that they'd go for just low-minors prospects.

Other than Cabrera, there isn't anyone notable that might be available or worthwhile to trade for. Except for Nomar!

Cabrera is an ideal trade candidate, solid all around hitter, fielder and base runner. I wonder if Borchard would do the trick. I'd probably be willing to pull the trigger on that deal despite Borchard's potential - he hasn't lived up to the potential and the Sox are in a desperate position in terms of SS. But then they'd have to step up and sign Cabrera to a multi year deal to shore up the position at least for the next 3 years.

maurice
11-05-2003, 01:33 PM
I'd trade Borchard for Cabrera every day and twice on Sunday.

fquaye149
11-05-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I would want Jose


No you not benefit from someone being a leader, unless you win the Series? Is that the only option? Or are you just talking out of your ass becuase you don't like a player?

it's not that we didn't make the series...but we showed no signs of being lead. we didn't finish serieses, we didn't play hard down the stretch...including that key series vs. minnesota.

you can blame that on manuel, and i do, but if valentin's leadership is so vital you would think we'd see evidence of it somewhere along the lines.

what if i say that manuel was a leader and we shouldn't have fired him?

or ray durham...or maybe todd ritchie was a great guy in the clubhouse...


leadership's all well and good but come on.....just because someone's said to have leadership doesn't mean he's leading them anywhere worth going

jeremyb1
11-05-2003, 03:05 PM
Paying Jose 5 million dollars when we're already over budget and are likely going to have to deal a big contract such as Carlos or Maggs to sign a starting pitcher along the lines of Ponson is insane. If we're even considering picking up his option, someone needs to be fired.

That said, Jose is still a rather effective SS especially if we can be smart enough to platoon him and reliable enough to stick to that plan. I'd pay him 2-3 million but much more than that would be disasterous.

SoxxoS
11-05-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I'd trade Borchard for Cabrera every day and twice on Sunday.

That is blasphamy on this board...

And yes, I would bet that the Expos would deal Cabrera for a former #1 prospect in the organization. For the record, I would pull the trigger on this trade also.

maurice
11-05-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
That is blasphamy on this board...

Just to daver. Fortunately, he doesn't know exactly where I live or what I look like (I hope).

:)

Steve Bartman
11-05-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Why dont we get iguchi???

Iguchi had better numbers than Kaz last year. He batterd .340 with 27 home runs. Let's make a run at one of them!

FarmerAndy
11-05-2003, 04:43 PM
1. Jose was the leader of this team in 2000. Next season will be 2004. GET OVER IT ALREADY!

2. Where is everybody getting their info when they say Jose will come back for less money? I've read nothing of the sort. In fact, he thinks he's been underpaid over the last 3 years. His agent was quoted in today's Trib article as saying that Jose coming back for less would be like "Taking a paycut from a pay cut". I guess $5 million isn't enough for an error prone player who can't even hit .240 anymore.

3. It's easy to like Valentin, because he says all the right things. He says what needs to be said. Here's the problem though - he leads with his mouth, not with his actions. I appreciate what he did when he came here, but for the last couple of years he's been all talk. He hasn't put up.

3. Try one of these guys from Japan. It's worked out good for other clubs. Even if they end up not being very good, they'll still be a better bargain than Valentin.

4. Valentin can always get a job in a Village People tribute band.

FanOf14
11-05-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
4. Valentin can always get a job in a Village People tribute band.

Personally, I think he'd fit better in a Queen tribute band (see Freddie Mercury).

Gumshoe
11-05-2003, 05:10 PM
"It's easy to like Valentin, because he says all the right things. He says what needs to be said. Here's the problem though - he leads with his mouth, not with his actions. I appreciate what he did when he came here, but for the last couple of years he's been all talk. He hasn't put up"


He doesn't lead with his actions? This guy hustles more than anyone else on the team, he wants to win and he played GREAT defense last year. It's cool if you don't believe in intangibles. But don't tell me that Frank Thomas hasn't hurt the White Sox over the last 4 years. If you claim that, I have zero respect for your opinion, quite honestly.

gumshoe

crector
11-05-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
"It's easy to like Valentin, because he says all the right things. He says what needs to be said. Here's the problem though - he leads with his mouth, not with his actions. I appreciate what he did when he came here, but for the last couple of years he's been all talk. He hasn't put up"


He doesn't lead with his actions? This guy hustles more than anyone else on the team, he wants to win and he played GREAT defense last year. It's cool if you don't believe in intangibles. But don't tell me that Frank Thomas hasn't hurt the White Sox over the last 4 years. If you claim that, I have zero respect for your opinion, quite honestly.

gumshoe

How exactly has Frank, aka the best hitter on the team, hurt the White Sox?

And are you claiming that Valentin is more valuable to the White Sox than Frank? If you claim that, I have zero respect for your opinion, quite honestly.

FarmerAndy
11-05-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
[B
He doesn't lead with his actions? This guy hustles more than anyone else on the team, he wants to win and he played GREAT defense last year. It's cool if you don't believe in intangibles. But don't tell me that Frank Thomas hasn't hurt the White Sox over the last 4 years. If you claim that, I have zero respect for your opinion, quite honestly.

gumshoe [/B]

1. I do believe in intangibles.

2. This thread has nothing to do with Frank Thomas.

3. No player really wants to lose. So saying "Valentin wants to win" is not a valid argument.

4. Hustle is one thing, constantly getting thrown out on the base paths by trying to take extra bases that you have no chance of reaching is another thing.

5. Valentin played BETTER defense last year, not GREAT defense.

6. If you really think Valentin is that good, then I would take you having zero respect for my opinion as a compliment.

hold2dibber
11-05-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
1. Jose was the leader of this team in 2000. Next season will be 2004. GET OVER IT ALREADY!

Agreed to an extent. I do believe that Jose has more desire and heart than most guys on this team, but that only goes so far.

2. Where is everybody getting their info when they say Jose will come back for less money? I've read nothing of the sort. In fact, he thinks he's been underpaid over the last 3 years. His agent was quoted in today's Trib article as saying that Jose coming back for less would be like "Taking a paycut from a pay cut". I guess $5 million isn't enough for an error prone player who can't even hit .240 anymore.

I don't know if he'll accept less than $5 million from the Sox. But I promise you, if the Sox don't exercise the option, he will NOT garner a $5 million deal for next year. No way, no how, not in this market.

3. It's easy to like Valentin, because he says all the right things. He says what needs to be said. Here's the problem though - he leads with his mouth, not with his actions. I appreciate what he did when he came here, but for the last couple of years he's been all talk. He hasn't put up.

Jose was very good in '00. He has been okay since then:

'00: 25 HR, 92 RBI, .273 avg., .343 OBP, .834 OPS
'01: 28 HR, 68 RBI, .258 avg., .336 OBP, .845 OPS
'02: 25 HR, 75 RBI, .249 avg., .311 OBP, .790 OPS
'03: 28 HR, 74 RBI, .237 avg., .313 OBP, .776 OPS

The thing that stands out is his avg and OBP plummeting. His walks and Ks have been remarkably consistent over this time period, as have his HRs. He just doesn't get nearly as many non-HR hits as he did in his hey day. With that said, his power numbers are damn good for a SS. His OBP is horse crap. But he is the cream of the SS free agent market (putting aside for a moment the question of the Japanese SSs). I don't think it's quite right to say he "hasn't put up" the last few years. He's been okay if not a little bit better than okay.

3. Try one of these guys from Japan. It's worked out good for other clubs. Even if they end up not being very good, they'll still be a better bargain than Valentin.

Again, I'm against exercising Jose at $5 million, because that would be overpaying him, and the Sox simply cannot afford to overpay anyone else (since they're already overpaying Maggs, Konerko and Koch). But if they can convince him to sign for say $2 million, he is worth that kind of money, assuming he plays at about the same level he has the past few seasons. The Japanese guys will almost certainly cost more than that, both in terms of the annual salary and the up front payment the team that wins the bidding has to pay to the Japanese club. If I recall correctly, the Mariners paid upwards of $13 million up front for the right to sign Ichiro (in addition to his annual salary). It just isn't realistic to think the Sox will go after one of the Japanese SSs under these circumstances - unless they were to entirely forego signing any FA pitchers. And that would be a big mistake.

batmanZoSo
11-05-2003, 07:37 PM
Wanna whole lotta money?

What happened to taking a pay cut? Oh well, at least as KW would say "the picture is clearer now."

2004 lineup

?
?
Thomas
?
?
?
Valentin
Crede
Olivo

To quote Vinny Vega, "to be continued..."

RichH55
11-05-2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
1. I do believe in intangibles.

2. This thread has nothing to do with Frank Thomas.

3. No player really wants to lose. So saying "Valentin wants to win" is not a valid argument.

4. Hustle is one thing, constantly getting thrown out on the base paths by trying to take extra bases that you have no chance of reaching is another thing.

5. Valentin played BETTER defense last year, not GREAT defense.

6. If you really think Valentin is that good, then I would take you having zero respect for my opinion as a compliment.


1. Ok

2. That's why you should avoid Gumshoes posts

3. Wanting to win in cliche..sure....I think Jose burns to win
a) Paycut Once already
b) By All Accounts he is the last guy to leave the weight room and whatnot--> physical manifestations of wanting to win
C) He played 3B/CF to accomodate Royce Clayton, even though everyone and their mother knew it was the wrong decesion
D) He gave up bonuses in order to play winter ball --> This is a guy that loves to play the game

4) Hustle is something yes; I absolutely disagree that Jose gets thrown out alot...in fact he is one of our "smartest" baserunners...invalid point you made there

5.) Not great defense I agree --> Error prone? No, his error total is not high for a SS....Someone bemoaned the continued draw of his leadership saying he led in 2000, but its 2004....I of course disagree there, because intangibles don't usually wane with age, but the error prone comment would be appropiate when he was making 35, at 20 I don't think its applicable.....in what world does a guy make 0 errors at SS(especially when we aren't classifying the D as great?)


6. Who is the better option for the money at SS? I'm waiting to hear it.....I think Jose is a platoon guy(at the very least he has to stop switch hitting), but he should still get the majority of the playing time. His slugging numbers are still good, but he does need to raise his OBP numbers.....hitting him differently( No Switch Hitting, some platooning(graff would make sense) would alliviate alot of percieved problems

Is he ARod? No, but he will probably be making around 10% of Arods deal if he is back here next year, and we can't find someone better for the money, nor is it reasonable to expect a Tejada/Nomar with albatrosses like PK and Koch around

RichH55
11-05-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Agreed to an extent. I do believe that Jose has more desire and heart than most guys on this team, but that only goes so far.



I don't know if he'll accept less than $5 million from the Sox. But I promise you, if the Sox don't exercise the option, he will NOT garner a $5 million deal for next year. No way, no how, not in this market.



Jose was very good in '00. He has been okay since then:

'00: 25 HR, 92 RBI, .273 avg., .343 OBP, .834 OPS
'01: 28 HR, 68 RBI, .258 avg., .336 OBP, .845 OPS
'02: 25 HR, 75 RBI, .249 avg., .311 OBP, .790 OPS
'03: 28 HR, 74 RBI, .237 avg., .313 OBP, .776 OPS



Just to nitpick a bit.....His numbers in 2001 were at the very least comparable to his 2000 year.....Tough to make the argument that you go from "very good" to "ok" when you raise your OPS

maurice
11-06-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Error prone? No, his error total is not high for a SS.

Yes, it is. I've posted the comparison numerous times.