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ozz18
11-04-2003, 10:14 PM
OK........before you over react, listen up. After Ron left has G.M. we have not made the playoffs once. If we had a fifth starter like Kipper or Fogg around last year, we might have been in the playoffs. I hate to be one of those whining bitches around here, but am I wrong?

Daver
11-04-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by ozz18
but am I wrong?

Yes.

minastirith67
11-04-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by ozz18
OK........before you over react, listen up. After Ron left has G.M. we have not made the playoffs once. If we had a fifth starter like Kipper or Fogg around last year, we might have been in the playoffs. I hate to be one of those whining bitches around here, but am I wrong?


:)

mike squires
11-04-2003, 10:18 PM
I'm reacting...this thread sucks! I never was a big fan of Kenny Williams but the past few years he's made some gutsy moves. Even though the Wells trade didn't work out it was a big move, he's gotten Alomar, Everett, Colone, Wells...he said so himself, as long as he is here he feels the sox will be competitive. Hes got some moxy.

Steve Bartman
11-04-2003, 10:31 PM
If it wasn't for KW, there would have been no reason for watching the sox last summer.

:hawk
"Kenny Williams is one hell of a G.M."

RedPinStripes
11-04-2003, 10:40 PM
:threadsucks

The_Floridian
11-04-2003, 10:51 PM
Sigh.

StepsInSC
11-04-2003, 11:17 PM
I understand the Ritchie deal blew hardcore style, but its kind of too late to fire him solely for that. I was pretty happy with the job he did last year (effort wise). Look at the personel he brought in. There were some major changes made when he could have put up a white flag instead.

soxnut
11-04-2003, 11:46 PM
I like what KW has done. And really it had very little to do with pitching in my opinion as to why the Sox didn't make the post season. It was situational hitting........that's the biggest reason..........we had a bunch of dumb-thinking hitters in '03 :cool:

WhiteSox = Life
11-04-2003, 11:49 PM
It's amazing the amount of "This Thread Sucks!" tags being used the last couple of days. It's almost like every other one has that dubious designation on it. Might as well just rename the Sox Clubhouse "These Threads Suck!"

:)

Tragg
11-05-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by ozz18
OK........before you over react, listen up. After Ron left has G.M. we have not made the playoffs once. If we had a fifth starter like Kipper or Fogg around last year, we might have been in the playoffs. I hate to be one of those whining bitches around here, but am I wrong?

A)Kenny Williams is a better GM than Schueler was
B)This managerial hiring, which I think was a dubious choice, seems to have Reinsdorf's fingerprints on it more than Williams(I could be wrong, but it seems that way to me)

Tragg
11-05-2003, 12:05 AM
nm

Steve Bartman
11-05-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
nm

Can someone help me out here? I have seen "nm" posted here a lot recently. What does this mean?

Geeterman1
11-05-2003, 01:28 AM
Doesn't it mean nevermind????

DSpivack
11-05-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Steve Bartman
Can someone help me out here? I have seen "nm" posted here a lot recently. What does this mean?

Roberto Duran says it means "No Mas!"

Gumshoe
11-05-2003, 02:17 AM
These schmucks who say KW is "gutsy" that he's got moxie, etc. You all make me wanna PUKE . He hasn't WON CRAP . Isn't that what we measure people by as White Sox fans? it's all about winning, and KW hasn't done anything of the sort, and in fact, has done a lot to create a situation where we have done the opposite.

Now, I applaud the new hire of Ozzie, because we need a change. But the chicken crap stuff that has been pulled (his puppeteering of JM and not firing him), the terrrible, atrocious trades, those have ALL outweighted any good move by him (Bartolo) ... because we HAVE NOT made the playoffs. Results baby. Just win, baby, just win. Then I'll give some credit. I hope we're on the right track, but people have done much less than KW to get fired ....

Gumshoe

ps- Rowand naysayers will see him play solid baseball because Ozzie is going to play him. He knows this is the guy in CF. Watch. KW, if you read this, please do something so that we make the playoffs. These are great times to take advantage. No more Koch stuff, we've suffered enough.

Steve Bartman
11-05-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
These schmucks who say KW is "gutsy" that he's got moxie, etc. You all make me wanna PUKE . He hasn't WON CRAP . Isn't that what we measure people by as White Sox fans? it's all about winning, and KW hasn't done anything of the sort, and in fact, has done a lot to create a situation where we have done the opposite.

Now, I applaud the new hire of Ozzie, because we need a change. But the chicken crap stuff that has been pulled (his puppeteering of JM and not firing him), the terrrible, atrocious trades, those have ALL outweighted any good move by him (Bartolo) ... because we HAVE NOT made the playoffs. Results baby. Just win, baby, just win. Then I'll give some credit. I hope we're on the right track, but people have done much less than KW to get fired ....

Gumshoe

ps- Rowand naysayers will see him play solid baseball because Ozzie is going to play him. He knows this is the guy in CF. Watch. KW, if you read this, please do something so that we make the playoffs. These are great times to take advantage. No more Koch stuff, we've suffered enough.

Who would you rather have, our old white-flagging GM or KW who has some guts?
......I think KW

toledosoxfan
11-05-2003, 10:44 AM
This thread sucks big time. KW has been put in a tough position because of Jerry's tight pocket book. This winter will be make or break for KW trying to field a respectable team with that kind of budget. I wish him the best of luck. He'll need it.

Now I'm getting depressed.

Paulwny
11-05-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by toledosoxfan
This thread sucks big time. KW has been put in a tough position because of Jerry's tight pocket book. This winter will be make or break for KW trying to field a respectable team with that kind of budget. I wish him the best of luck. He'll need it.

Now I'm getting depressed.

Exactly, it's not KW, it's the budget.

kraut83
11-05-2003, 11:12 AM
I would love to see how wonderboy Jim Hendry would do with these payroll constraints.

harwar
11-05-2003, 11:16 AM
I think that Ken Williams has learned fast and gotten better every year as GM.Its too bad that it wasn't left up to him to hire the new manager as he wants to win so bad that we just might have got a good one.
Oh well,Reinsdorf is gonna hire who he wants,no matter what the consequences.
I actually thought that Harold Baines would be the new manager because JR would legally adopt the guy if he could.
Its no secret that JR and Ozzie have been friends a long time.
What a revoltin development

poorme
11-05-2003, 11:22 AM
You know KW put himself in this payroll bind. His planning horizon extends to about 6 months into the future.

kraut83
11-05-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by poorme
You know KW put himself in this payroll bind. His planning horizon extends to about 6 months into the future.

What payroll bind? The fact that JR isn't even willing to spend the league average?

Steve Bartman
11-05-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by kraut83
What payroll bind? The fact that JR isn't even willing to spend the league average?

:sellreinsy

I want a owner that cares about winning!

Sell the damn Bulls if you have to, just win!

poorme
11-05-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by kraut83
What payroll bind?

The bind caused by the fact he's got $14 million tied up in one guy, $12 million tied up in 2 worthless bums, and a bunch of guys becoming arbitration eligible at the same time.

Sure JR is the root of all our problems, but KW hasn't managed his limited resources as well as he could have.

nasox
11-05-2003, 02:33 PM
Man, you gotta shut up or I'm gonna get pissed. KW is the best GM we have had in a while. Sure his first few trades were busts but lately his talent is showing up and we are starting to see results. And Ozzie is the Savior. The only reason the sox were in that division race in september was because of him and they damn well could have won anyway.
I accept your opinion, but dude, it really sucks.

Steve Bartman
11-05-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by nasox
Man, you gotta shut up or I'm gonna get pissed. KW is the best GM we have had in a while. Sure his first few trades were busts but lately his talent is showing up and we are starting to see results. And Ozzie is the Savior. The only reason the sox were in that division race in september was because of him and they damn well could have won anyway.
I accept your opinion, but dude, it really sucks.

I think Ozzie will be a good manager, but not a "savior". A "savior" to the Sox will be when we have an owner that puts a good team out on the field.

gosox41
11-05-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by nasox
Man, you gotta shut up or I'm gonna get pissed. KW is the best GM we have had in a while. Sure his first few trades were busts but lately his talent is showing up and we are starting to see results. And Ozzie is the Savior. The only reason the sox were in that division race in september was because of him and they damn well could have won anyway.
I accept your opinion, but dude, it really sucks.

If KW is such a genius he should have no problem putting together a team that wins the division next season.

We'll see how he does. KW put himself in a lot of this mess, let's see if he can get himself out of it.


I have my doubts.

Bob

bc2k
11-06-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
These schmucks who say KW is "gutsy" that he's got moxie, etc. You all make me wanna PUKE . He hasn't WON CRAP . Isn't that what we measure people by as White Sox fans? it's all about winning, and KW hasn't done anything of the sort, and in fact, has done a lot to create a situation where we have done the opposite.

Your 'results or bust' thinking doesn't apply to GMs. The White Sox didn't make the playoffs because the underachieved. To underachieve means to not play up to expectations/talent. The high expectations/talent were put in place by KW.

joepoe
11-06-2003, 07:10 PM
Kenny is nothing but a front man. He has no real power. He wanted Gaston, the Chairman told him to take Ozzie "will work for food" Guillen.

Schueler forced Ritchie on him. Einhorn engineered the Alomar and Everett deals last year. KW is nothing but a puppet.

Gumshoe
11-06-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Your 'results or bust' thinking doesn't apply to GMs. The White Sox didn't make the playoffs because the underachieved. To underachieve means to not play up to expectations/talent. The high expectations/talent were put in place by KW.

What are you talking about? This team has been good enough to win the division every year with KW. Results are what the Marlins got when they fired McKeon. Results are what you get when you don't trade Foulke away and then are left with NO right handed relievers. Results are what you get when David Wells doesn't screw you whole team and chemistry. Results come from not giving up pitchers who are at worst average contributors for Todd Ritchie.

Those are results. I'm sick and tired of credit given to KW. He hasn't won ANYTHING --> Get it through your thick skulls!

Gumshoe

voodoochile
11-06-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
What are you talking about? This team has been good enough to win the division every year with KW. Results are what the Marlins got when they fired McKeon. Results are what you get when you don't trade Foulke away and then are left with NO right handed relievers. Results are what you get when David Wells doesn't screw you whole team and chemistry. Results come from not giving up pitchers who are at worst average contributors for Todd Ritchie.

Those are results. I'm sick and tired of credit given to KW. He hasn't won ANYTHING --> Get it through your thick skulls!

Gumshoe

Okay, but he is improving. He has clearly gotten better at being a GM and the team isn't markedly worse than when he took it over. The minors have less AAA talent, but that was all Scheuler had.

Not saying that KW is the perfect answer, but given what you know about JR refusing to hire experience and pay for quality in upper management, who do you want to take KW's place?

Are you saying he has done nothing good in his time here? It's easy to complain, harder to come up with solutions to the problems you complain about.

crector
11-07-2003, 05:56 AM
The best solution would be for Himes to return as GM, but that would mean that JR would have to admit that he made a mistake and JR would rather die and go to Hell than ever do that.

Basically, we have an incompetent GM but given the fact that JR has failed to learn anything during the years that he's been in charge, this is the best we can do. The AL Central Division should have been ours at least since Cleveland downsized after the 2001 season, but due to incompetency/failure to learn from past mistakes, Minnesota has it for the forseeable future.

And if JR does get disattisfied with the results from KW/Ozzie, he'll just simply replace them with even more from the pile of mediocrity that he got most of his other managers/GM's from. In other words, the McCaskey/Wirtz Syndrome is large and in charge of our favorite baseball team.

Woe is us White Sox fans.

Gumshoe
11-07-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, but he is improving. He has clearly gotten better at being a GM and the team isn't markedly worse than when he took it over. The minors have less AAA talent, but that was all Scheuler had.

Not saying that KW is the perfect answer, but given what you know about JR refusing to hire experience and pay for quality in upper management, who do you want to take KW's place?

Are you saying he has done nothing good in his time here? It's easy to complain, harder to come up with solutions to the problems you complain about.

Voodoo, I'll agree with the above. I made that other post that I'm sure you saw that deals with the way I like how realizes that this team needs a kick in the arse and that he's done some good things. I also agree with your sentiment about coming up with solutions. Totally. The thing is that there is NO WAY other candidates weren't better than KW at the time of his hiring. No way.

Originally posted by crector The best solution would be for Himes to return as GM, but that would mean that JR would have to admit that he made a mistake and JR would rather die and go to Hell than ever do that.

Basically, we have an incompetent GM but given the fact that JR has failed to learn anything during the years that he's been in charge, this is the best we can do. The AL Central Division should have been ours at least since Cleveland downsized after the 2001 season, but due to incompetency/failure to learn from past mistakes, Minnesota has it for the forseeable future.

And if JR does get disattisfied with the results from KW/Ozzie, he'll just simply replace them with even more from the pile of mediocrity that he got most of his other managers/GM's from. In other words, the McCaskey/Wirtz Syndrome is large and in charge of our favorite baseball team.

As crector says, the above adds to our woes. Man, when is this guy going to sell? Am I totally lost in thinking that we can win next year? Minne and others aren't that good AT ALL.

bc2k
11-07-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
What are you talking about? This team has been good enough to win the division every year with KW. Results are what the Marlins got when they fired McKeon. Results are what you get when you don't trade Foulke away and then are left with NO right handed relievers. Results are what you get when David Wells doesn't screw you whole team and chemistry. Results come from not giving up pitchers who are at worst average contributors for Todd Ritchie.

Those are results. I'm sick and tired of credit given to KW. He hasn't won ANYTHING --> Get it through your thick skulls!

Gumshoe Your second sentence proves the point I already made: Win or lose, KW's success comes from compiling the team. If he compiles a team of All-Stars and the team still loses, the players underachieved and should receive the blame.

Two of the trades you mention above were payroll related. The other trade was good on paper. GM's aren't psychics, they have to make trades that make the team better on paper. As KW said after those payroll related trades, the Sox have to obtain players through their asset of farm talent because they don't have the luxury of obtaining players through financial means.

Gumshoe
11-07-2003, 12:10 PM
But when you trade for guys like Rolls Royce Clayton, causing your manager to pull crazy switches, when you trade for guys like Ramirez to play CF who are terrible, when you hire Gary Pettis and he doens't know his arse from a hole in the ground, when you don't put the right "all stars" together, it comes on you. YOU ALONE.

Figure it out. I have. As I said, at least it LOOKS like he may be starting to understand. it's probably too late though.

Gumshoe