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crector
11-04-2003, 04:58 AM
When I first found out that Jerry Manuel was being sacked, it sounded like bad news. The White Sox were dumping an experienced hand in the captain's chair who knew how to bring a World Series to Chicagoland. However, Jerry Reinsdorf has done the seemingly impossible. He has appointed someone as Sox manager who makes Terrry Bevington look good.

There are 2 reasons for this:

1: There did not seem to be much of a talent hunt and the candidates interviewed were a mass of mediocrity. If Ozzie had been hired from a wider talent pool that included some big names, then his hiring would have inspired hope instead of dread.

2: Ozzie's performance at the press conference showed him as being Not Ready For Prime Time. He has the preconceived notion that small ball is the ideal way to go for a team that plays 81 games a year at a hitter's ball park. Add to that the number of other hitter's ball parks in the American League and you have a situation where a small ball playing team will be on the short end of the stick for the majority of the season.

Even worse, Ozzie does not appear to really understand small ball. Taking walks is a fundamental part of small ball, yet as a player, Ozzie acted as if it would violate his manhood or something for him to walk to 1b. He could have addressed this matter at the press conference, but instead chose to engage in this bizarre bunting babble. The failure to take walks is the one of the present Sox team's greatest deficiencies, but the alleged small ball lover Ozzie does not seem to realize that its a problem. If anything, he might make matters even worse by going after hitters like Frank Thomas who do take them. Additionally, just how are the slow runners who populate the team such as Frank and Konerko going to successfully make it to 1b after bunting is unclear.

Also, its clear that Ozzie is still as ever the egomaniac by his dumping on Frank at the press conference. He is clearly still jealous of Frank and other players who are better than he ever was. This raises the possiblity that Frank may decide that staying loyal to the Sox faithful comes at too high a price and ask to be traded to a team that values 43 HR/105 RBI hitters who possess tremendous plate discipline. If the most popular Sox player goes, then the ship of Sox will tank and a lot of fans may desert the team for good.

As Steff said in a different thread, Ozzie gives the impression that he wants to be the manager just for the title and does not really care how good the team he has will be. In other words, he was hired precisely because he would not raise hell with JR and KW over the team's composition or payroll.

Now, if Ozzie had been level headed at the press conference, made it clear that he was not an egomaniac any more, that he had come to realize the value of walks, that he knew that Frank bats best at 1b and that he would test the small ball concept during Spring Training and the Exhibition Games in order to determine if it really was a good strategy to use with this Sox team, then I'd feel a lot better about his hiring than I do now.

P.S.: Ozzie is the 3rd in a string of 3b coaches who have been hired as Sox manager. Just what significance 3b coaching has to JR's twisted mind is unclear. Does anyone here have any idea why?

cornball
11-04-2003, 05:48 AM
Well i hope you get over you depression because Ozzie is now here. I understand your concerns but compared to the competition interviewed, he was the only contrast to a mellow JM type of manager.

I wish Ozzie good luck.

Kilroy
11-04-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by crector
...Ozzie does not appear to really understand small ball. Taking walks is a fundamental part of small ball, yet as a player, Ozzie acted as if it would violate his manhood or something for him to walk to 1b. He could have addressed this matter at the press conference, but instead chose to engage in this bizarre bunting babble. The failure to take walks is the one of the present Sox team's greatest deficiencies, but the alleged small ball lover Ozzie does not seem to realize that its a problem...

Also, its clear that Ozzie is still as ever the egomaniac by his dumping on Frank at the press conference.

I agreed with these two points out of your post. The Sox do need to work on taking pitches, being 2 strike hitters, and working the count for walks. They weren't coached to do it w/ JM, and Ozzie's rep as a player suggests that he won't be coaching for it in the future. But that's not a guarantee. Sounds like a good topic to bring up at SoxFest.

I thought it was unfair for Ozzie to single out Frank at the press conference saying that he wanted Frank to be a "great player in the clubhouse", and that Frank is "going to play my way, sorry if he doesn't like it." That just gave fresh meat for the media jackals to rip on Frank. It was also antagonistic, and was a drawing of a line in the sand, and the two haven't even spoken to each other under the new state of affairs. That is one thing that I don't think bodes too well. Then again, maybe it will spur Frank to play even better, with the intent of forcing the Sox hand on the option situation next year.

vegyrex
11-04-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by crector
When I first found out that Jerry Manuel was being sacked, it sounded like great news. Finally, the White Sox would be able to get an experienced hand in the captain's chair who knew how to bring a World Series to Chicagoland. However, Jerry Reinsdorf has done the seemingly impossible. He has appointed someone as Sox manager who makes Terrry Bevington look good.



Bevington II is a very real possibility.

batmanZoSo
11-04-2003, 11:22 AM
You can't change hitters. If a guy doesn't walk, he's never gonna walk. If you make them change their approach, it'll do more harm than good. We'll have a bunch of .240 hitters who take a lot of pitches.

If you want a team that takes walks, you get new players.

SoxOnTop
11-04-2003, 11:54 AM
Additionally, just how are the slow runners who populate the team such as Frank and Konerko going to successfully make it to 1b after bunting is unclear.



The point of a sacrifice bunt is not get yourself to firstbase, but to get the runner into scoring position. It's exactly this type of selfish thinking that kills the Sox.

As for Ozzie downing on Frank, the media pushed this button and set him up. The reporters asked about Frank, so he gave his honest opinion. Like he said, Frank and Mags will be treated like every other player on the team. I think Frank and Oz will get along well. Manual consistantly said things and then did another and I so Frank did not respect him. Ozzie will be honest (brutally if necessary) with Frank to his face and not around his back. I think Frank will respond well and they will respect each other.

crector
11-04-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
The point of a sacrifice bunt is not get yourself to firstbase, but to get the runner into scoring position. It's exactly this type of selfish thinking that kills the Sox.


Problem is that there are only 3 outs in an inning and its pretty stupid to give up 1/3rd of those outs just to move guys up bases without scoring. Going for an extra base hit makes a lot more sense than bunting does.

poorme
11-04-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by crector
Going for an extra base hit makes a lot more sense than bunting does.

Depends on the situation. I'm pretty sure that every manager who ever managed called for a sac bunt once in a while.

SoxOnTop
11-04-2003, 12:06 PM
I agree with you to a certain extent. But Ozzie made it clear that he would only make them bunt if they did not play team ball. Eg. Hitting to right side of the field with a man on 2nd to get the runner over. Just because you are aiming for right field doesn't mean you are purposely trying to make an out. And that is the good solid team ball that has been missing around here for some time.

SoxOnTop
11-04-2003, 12:12 PM
Plus the media loves to hype a controversy. They love to portray Frank as the big selfish superstar and ask the manager how they are going to reign him in. Not that it is all untrue, but the media blows this out of porportion whenever possible. Then if they see them getting along, they'll write about them burying the hatchet and attribute it to Frank being a changed man, or some junk like that. Controversy sells copy, real or imagined.

Like I said before, I expect Frank and Oz to get along because there will be blunt honesty between them. While this is not a great start, I expect Oz to talk to Frank personally an not send messages through the media the way Manual did.

LASOXFAN
11-04-2003, 12:35 PM
HE'S A MASCOT, NOT A MANAGER!!!!!!!!

JRIG
11-04-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
HE'S A MASCOT, NOT A MANAGER!!!!!!!!

I prefer "head cheerleader."

Lip Man 1
11-04-2003, 12:50 PM
Crector:

On another thread I asked the question about who the Sox should have interviewed / hired. I'd be interested to see who you thought the Sox should have gotten. Williams said he tried to talk Leyland and Kelly out of retirement, I don't see who else was available given the self imposed contraints by the Sox themselves.

With those in mind please don't list guys like LaRussa, Torre, Piniella, Baker etc.

They were not ever going to come here because of money and or player compensation to get out of a contract..

Please don't list guys like Fregosi or Johnson etc.

They were not ever going to come here because the Sox do not want a manager who is liable to tell upper management to kiss his rear.

and if you suggest guys like Rick Peterson (interesting) you run into the exact same question like with Ozzie. He never managed anyplace before.

So who was left? Please tell me! (I've already heard Dierker and Rothchild and if you say they are "big names" I'm concerned about your definition of a "big name.")

So go ahead, the floor's yours.

Lip

JRIG
11-04-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
So who was left? Please tell me! (I've already heard Dierker and Rothchild and if you say they are "big names" I'm concerned about your definition of a "big name.")

So go ahead, the floor's yours.

Lip

Larry Dierker's career record:

1997 NL Cent Houston 162 84 78 .519 1
1998 NL Cent Houston 162 102 60 .630 1
1999 NL Cent Houston 162 97 65 .599 1
2000 NL Cent Houston 162 72 90 .444 4
2001 NL Cent Houston 162 93 69 .574 1
+----+-----------+--------+-----+----+----+------+------+
TOTAL 810 448 362 .553

If you think Dierker is not a "big name," I too am concerened about your definition of a "big name." Four division championships in 5 years is damn good to me.

harwar
11-04-2003, 01:14 PM
Jeez,i step out for a few weeks and all hell breaks loose.I just got back from norway and today is the first i've heared that Ozzie is our new manager.
I really liked Ozzie as a player but i don't know what hes' gonna do with a team of DHs' and i have a feeling that he doesn't have a clue as to how to handle a pitching staff.
I am VERY disappointed but its about what i expected from JR.I look to next year to be a total disaster,.
BUMMER.

LASOXFAN
11-04-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Crector:

On another thread I asked the question about who the Sox should have interviewed / hired. I'd be interested to see who you thought the Sox should have gotten. Williams said he tried to talk Leyland and Kelly out of retirement, I don't see who else was available given the self imposed contraints by the Sox themselves.

With those in mind please don't list guys like LaRussa, Torre, Piniella, Baker etc.

They were not ever going to come here because of money and or player compensation to get out of a contract..

Please don't list guys like Fregosi or Johnson etc.

They were not ever going to come here because the Sox do not want a manager who is liable to tell upper management to kiss his rear.

and if you suggest guys like Rick Peterson (interesting) you run into the exact same question like with Ozzie. He never managed anyplace before.

So who was left? Please tell me! (I've already heard Dierker and Rothchild and if you say they are "big names" I'm concerned about your definition of a "big name.")

So go ahead, the floor's yours.

Lip

how about Bud Black, or Joe Madden? How about Randolph? First timers with a great deal more time and all three with unique expertise.

Ozzie's a character whose act will wear out fast. This team was on the brink of something special, and is now on the road to ruin. I'm putting this move up there with the trade for Ritchie.

Lip Man 1
11-04-2003, 10:43 PM
Black is a stretch a mediocre ML pitcher, the second guy I never heard of and Raldolph IS NOT leaving the Yanks. When Torre leaves after 04 the job is his.

Lip

Lip Man 1
11-04-2003, 10:45 PM
and how many playoff wins for Larry Dierker?

and he won those titles with a payroll far bigger then what he'd have to work with on the South Side.

I'm not defending the hiring of Guillen my point is that some of you out there need a serious reality check on potential managers.

Lip

LASOXFAN
11-05-2003, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Black is a stretch a mediocre ML pitcher, the second guy I never heard of and Raldolph IS NOT leaving the Yanks. When Torre leaves after 04 the job is his.

Lip

Madden is the bench coach for Anaheim and a respected one at that, recently interviewed for the Boston vacancy. He's also a disciple of the computer age and pores over stats looking for an edge. He's Soscia's right hand man.

Bud Black is a highly respected pitching coach - in my opinion, one of the top three in the game today. What the hell he did as a player really makes no difference, although I would point out that he was a World Series pitcher for the Royals.

And if you think Willie Randolph - a first time manager and a black man - is going to manage the Yankees while Steinbrenner's still the owner, then you and I are really on different pages. Teams have been given permission to speak with him every year.

My point is that KW did a poor job of looking for a manager. He limited his search and that's a shame for all of us praying that this team can snap out of the funk it's been in since 1959.

Hey, if Ozzie turns it around and takes us to the promised land then you can throw it in my face until I'm six feet under. Fine by me. But this has disaster written all over it. These are not the KC Royals and he is not Tony Pena.